The Ray Rice Debacle
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Deadspin with a nice roundup of who should be embarrassed: http://deadspin.com/whose-idiotic-ray-rice-comments-look-especially-awful-t-1632033541
Rice was charged earlier this year with a felony that carried 3 to 5 years in prison as a possible penalty. Few months ago, he agreed to pre-trial diversion, and although we don't have the terms of that agreement, if his lawyers did their job he cannot be prosecuted nowDeathofthebambino said:
But the important point is this: The second he was indicted, Rice had an absolute legal right to that tape. And there was nothing preventing Goodell from insisting on a copy of that tape before he sanctioned Rice. So even if you indulge the generous assumption that the NFL did not see it before today, they could easily have commanded it and its dereliction of responsibility is inexcusable. You don't take the guy's word for it in cases like this -- or the victim's.
Correct me if I am wrong here, once the indictment took place and video footage was requested, the casino would have been withholding evidence (a crime, no?) if they had not turned it over to authorities. If it was turned over there's no way BAL and the NFL wouldn't have seen it. So the only way the "we just now saw it" line is true is if the casino either willingly withheld evidence or that they had no knowledge of a camera presence inside their own elevator. Am I wrong?dcmissle said:
That was brutal. As was Ditka's "his earning power has been destroyed" comment.Gash Prex said:
When Rice was indicted, his lawyers almost certainly requested from the authorities all evidence, which would have included the tape. The authorities prior to that would have obtained it, voluntarily or by warrant, from the hotel. It is inconceivable the hotel did not know it had the tape.koufax32 said:
One of the first things you do if you're Goodell is ask for the tape. And if Rice says he does not have it, you instruct him to get it.
SidelineCameras said:
With the video actually out there, this tweet is spectacularly awful (I'm assuming this is what @BigSoxFan was referring to)
I don't spend a second of time pondering how 99.9% of human beings specifically contribute to society, so why would care about him?moondog80 said:
The nurses had the Press conference on in the office and there was stunned silence when he actually used the 'get knocked down gotta get up' cliche. Absolutely incredible how tone deaf and apathetic he is to the whole incident.Gdiguy said:
Also, yes, the Steelers fans are loving this so far. Not only is their current biggest rival getting embarassed but now the Ravens are going to be all distracted for the Thursdsay game.
When I saw that Ray Rice had been released by the Ravens and suspended indefinitely by the NFL I was certain that I was going to hear about Ray Rice having beaten his now wife a second time.
It says absolutely terrible things about both the NFL and the Ravens that the offense committed hasn't changed nor, by most accounts has their knowledge of it and that the perception of the offense is all that counts.
It says absolutely terrible things about both the NFL and the Ravens that the offense committed hasn't changed nor, by most accounts has their knowledge of it and that the perception of the offense is all that counts.
Another sad chapter in the books [almost]. I don't think we have even scratched the surface.
When has football ever not been about belittling the weak? I cannot be the only one on this board who had coaches and teammates, in the spirit of "making a tougher, more manly football player out of me (and ever other player)," resort to loud, crude name-calling and physical intimidation (through the stronger, older players/captains). Only when playing football was it ok to be "motivated" by being called a "pussy," "girl," "weakling" or "faggot." Destroy the man in front of you. Don't give any ground. All aggression, all the time. Injuries are for losers.
How many stories have there been about athletically gifted, yet academically challenged young men being cattle-driven through colleges and universities to grace the proverbial gridiron? How many are or become convinced that they are above the law because the rules of behavior no longer apply?
Football is Neanderthal politics reincarnate and the NFL is the pinnacle of that. The strong survive. And when you win, club whichever wench you want and drag her off to your bed. If she fights back, put her in her place. Sadly, we created this.
Side note: So how long until we hear players and former players using a "concussion-related" defense strategy for domestic violence charges?
When has football ever not been about belittling the weak? I cannot be the only one on this board who had coaches and teammates, in the spirit of "making a tougher, more manly football player out of me (and ever other player)," resort to loud, crude name-calling and physical intimidation (through the stronger, older players/captains). Only when playing football was it ok to be "motivated" by being called a "pussy," "girl," "weakling" or "faggot." Destroy the man in front of you. Don't give any ground. All aggression, all the time. Injuries are for losers.
How many stories have there been about athletically gifted, yet academically challenged young men being cattle-driven through colleges and universities to grace the proverbial gridiron? How many are or become convinced that they are above the law because the rules of behavior no longer apply?
Football is Neanderthal politics reincarnate and the NFL is the pinnacle of that. The strong survive. And when you win, club whichever wench you want and drag her off to your bed. If she fights back, put her in her place. Sadly, we created this.
Side note: So how long until we hear players and former players using a "concussion-related" defense strategy for domestic violence charges?
The previous video was horrific and this one even more so. But while the NFL will almost certainly need some damage control here, no substantive behavioral changes will result. This is because people will tune in tonight in record numbers given the news and the fact that, hey, its Monday Night Football. And they will tune in next Sunday and all the following Sundays in droves (I am included in this group).
So until or unless we change our behavior - i.e. not consuming their product, the NFL will keep trotting out their whitewashed product of large and violent young men who get paid well to play what is a bloodsport. The concussion issue, which still hasn't been addressed properly imho was reason enough for the viewing public to change. We didn't. I am willing to wager that this video - which shows someone who cannot control their violent impulses - won't tip things either. Sound and fury for a few days and like everything else around news cycles, we will be on to the next by week three.
So until or unless we change our behavior - i.e. not consuming their product, the NFL will keep trotting out their whitewashed product of large and violent young men who get paid well to play what is a bloodsport. The concussion issue, which still hasn't been addressed properly imho was reason enough for the viewing public to change. We didn't. I am willing to wager that this video - which shows someone who cannot control their violent impulses - won't tip things either. Sound and fury for a few days and like everything else around news cycles, we will be on to the next by week three.
HurstSoGood said:
Wow. Great post...I would have just typed "this" in lieu of my stupid screed.
I'm not going to hold a benefit for him, and he should not escape punishment, but I like a redemption story and he can truly have a meaningful life, that's a good thing. If only from a practical standpoint, prisons are filled with guys like this and much worse, and eventually many will be back among us.8slim said:
That said, his wife is of course the victim here, it goes without saying that I wish her well too.
Corsi said:
Thank fucking god. Let it stick and let it burn. How stupid could the NFL possibly have been with this spin? Five gets you ten ESPN has had this in their pocket since noon and it drove their surprising positioning.
Koufax, that's where the disconnect is for me too, and why I made the earlier post. I think if the media really wants to take Goodell to task about whether or not he's lying about having seen the tape before, that's one of the questions to ask. Was Ray Rice really charged with a felony and given a plea agreement with the authorities not even requesting that tape? If they did see the tape, then how the fuck does Goodell not ask for it when he finds out about it and sees the first tape? I mean, my first response when I saw the first tape was "Where is the video from inside the elevator?"
Now, if the police never got their hands on the tape from inside the elevator, it would be an absolutely criminally bad job of investigative work on their part, but it would be at least conceivable to me that Goodell is telling the truth and he likewise didn't see it. Who knows if the authorities ever subpoenad the casino at all? Maybe the casino gave them the tape from outside the elevator and it never dawned on the authorities to request the one from inside it. Part of me thinks the leniency that Rice got from the authorities is because they didn't see that tape, just as Goodell is claiming. I have a hard time believing he isn't doing at least some time if the police saw what we are now seeing.
I'll say this though. If the police had this tape, and Rice was basically given a slap on the wrist, I don't know why all of this vitriol is being spewed at Goodell. At the end of the day, he's a football commissioner. The law is exactly who should be holding him responsible for his actions, and IMO, they have failed, and failed dramatically in this situation, and people should be way more concerned with the folks in those positions of power, and not just worrying about Roger Goodell.
Now, if the police never got their hands on the tape from inside the elevator, it would be an absolutely criminally bad job of investigative work on their part, but it would be at least conceivable to me that Goodell is telling the truth and he likewise didn't see it. Who knows if the authorities ever subpoenad the casino at all? Maybe the casino gave them the tape from outside the elevator and it never dawned on the authorities to request the one from inside it. Part of me thinks the leniency that Rice got from the authorities is because they didn't see that tape, just as Goodell is claiming. I have a hard time believing he isn't doing at least some time if the police saw what we are now seeing.
I'll say this though. If the police had this tape, and Rice was basically given a slap on the wrist, I don't know why all of this vitriol is being spewed at Goodell. At the end of the day, he's a football commissioner. The law is exactly who should be holding him responsible for his actions, and IMO, they have failed, and failed dramatically in this situation, and people should be way more concerned with the folks in those positions of power, and not just worrying about Roger Goodell.
First of all how does Stephen A Smith survive saying women should not provoke men?
2nd. What the fuck do people think went on in the elevator? He is a fucking NFL running back. Are we supposed to imagine some type of fight with a 120lb woman where he has no choice but to knock her out? There is no surprise for me.They knew he knocked her out and gave him 2 games. So now there is a video he knocked her out he gets canned?
2nd. What the fuck do people think went on in the elevator? He is a fucking NFL running back. Are we supposed to imagine some type of fight with a 120lb woman where he has no choice but to knock her out? There is no surprise for me.They knew he knocked her out and gave him 2 games. So now there is a video he knocked her out he gets canned?
Bingo. This is a case study text book example of victims of domestic abuse. To suggest she married him to get the money is in my opinion shameful. She was more than likely scared to death of him, and has more reason to be now. After reading an entire summers worth of attacks on Jerry Remy in game threads for what his son did, I find it remarkable that this line of thought is even being discussed. Jennifer Martel, anyone?singaporesoxfan said:
I mean, it's OK to acknowledge that what was happening in her brain at that time was probably pretty complex. If you want to have a fully honest discussion of the domestic abuse cycle, you better talk about the carrot and the stick both, because they exist in the dynamic. I don't know if I see malice in the observations, but maybe I'm not sufficiently cynical.
And why are the Ravens being allowed to skate? Jim Harbaugh talked all about how he loved Ray Rice, how Ray Rice was a model citizen, how he wished someone like Ray Rice would date his daughters. The organization, from the top down, all supported Ray Rice. Now this. Well, what happened to cause the change of heart, to suddenly make Ray Rice bad? Videotape, that's what happened.
And let's not kid, or fool ourselves. This is NOT the first time the Ravens nor the NFL saw that video. They had seen this evidence a long time ago, yet even upon seeing it, they were ready to make a saint of Ray Rice. Why not? They made a saint of Ray Lewis after all. But now that the world has seen it, the Ravens have no economic choice but to cut Ray Rice. They didn't cut him because Ray Rice was a criminal. They cut him because the evidence that he was a criminal was now public. And that would hurt the Ravens economically and public relations wise. What a cynical, reprehensible maneuver.
Reprehensible Ravens, and reprehensible NFL indeed. What utter scumbags.
I don't get it. What changed between now and yesterday? Yesterday he was accused of spousal abuse and today the same accusations remain. Oh wait, now there's a video! Well what in the heck...did the NFL and the Ravens think spousal abuse looked differently? What did they think it looked like, a game of patty cake? When an NFL player punches a girl that's what it looks like. Who thought it looked differently?
Don't give me this. This is shit. We all know what it looks like and we don't, or shouldn't, need a video to tell us. But apparently the NFL does. And so does Baltimore. They're too stupid to deserve an NFL team. Send them back to Cleveland and let Cleveland have two.
Fuck you NFL. You're a god damned parody of yourself. Goodell isn't so stupid as to not know what spousal abuse looks like. And that goes double for Baltimore. Hoods, thugs, gangsters, all being used to make money. Until today the Ravens team was singing Rice's praises - "a man of character" - and all that shit. Then the video. As if we needed a video.
The video didn't change anyone's opinion. It just changed the dollar signs. Rice went from an economic positive to a major economic drain.
Such a bullshit League and such a bullshit team.
And let's not kid, or fool ourselves. This is NOT the first time the Ravens nor the NFL saw that video. They had seen this evidence a long time ago, yet even upon seeing it, they were ready to make a saint of Ray Rice. Why not? They made a saint of Ray Lewis after all. But now that the world has seen it, the Ravens have no economic choice but to cut Ray Rice. They didn't cut him because Ray Rice was a criminal. They cut him because the evidence that he was a criminal was now public. And that would hurt the Ravens economically and public relations wise. What a cynical, reprehensible maneuver.
Reprehensible Ravens, and reprehensible NFL indeed. What utter scumbags.
I don't get it. What changed between now and yesterday? Yesterday he was accused of spousal abuse and today the same accusations remain. Oh wait, now there's a video! Well what in the heck...did the NFL and the Ravens think spousal abuse looked differently? What did they think it looked like, a game of patty cake? When an NFL player punches a girl that's what it looks like. Who thought it looked differently?
Don't give me this. This is shit. We all know what it looks like and we don't, or shouldn't, need a video to tell us. But apparently the NFL does. And so does Baltimore. They're too stupid to deserve an NFL team. Send them back to Cleveland and let Cleveland have two.
Fuck you NFL. You're a god damned parody of yourself. Goodell isn't so stupid as to not know what spousal abuse looks like. And that goes double for Baltimore. Hoods, thugs, gangsters, all being used to make money. Until today the Ravens team was singing Rice's praises - "a man of character" - and all that shit. Then the video. As if we needed a video.
The video didn't change anyone's opinion. It just changed the dollar signs. Rice went from an economic positive to a major economic drain.
Such a bullshit League and such a bullshit team.
IF there was no video AND she said she hit Ray first (didn't she tell this to Goodell?) why would you assume what you are claiming? Yes we can reasonably agree that he was guilty of something but without footage of him hitting her and her denial (regardless how lame) I can't go along with a lifetime ban. Certainly 2 games wasn't enough we all agree and I'd have wanted to see 6 games to one year.......but to ban someone for life without evidence of what occurred to me is irresponsible.reggiecleveland said:
The public knew this too...at least those of us who paid any attention. But the NFL and its fans simply wanted to believe the fantasy narrative. Because...are you ready for some football?reggiecleveland said:
Did Rice knock her out in the elevator?DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
Did she swing at Rice with a bottle and Rice's elbow knock her cold defending himself?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer.....pretty sure. But man it would really suck for the player if I was wrong, had no video evidence, and have the girl tell me this is what occurred.
The Ravens are doing all they can to make this go away without answering any questions. No representation from Biscotti or Ozzie Newsome? Making Harbaugh the scapegoat is so much bullshit. This is an abject embarrassment from all involved. Roger Gooddell should be very afraid what comes from TMZ tomorrow because his ass could be on the line too.
Of course they are. Because they are a disgusting organization and always have been.RedOctober3829 said:
Hmm. If only the incident had happened in a place surrounded by cameras, like the elevator of a casino and if only that video could have come into the hands of someone, like the defense team of a person charged with assault... and if only there was some way of getting that video, like requesting it from Rice during the disciplinary process. Poor Goodell. Having to make the decision with so little video evidence.HomeRunBaker said:
I ask this seriously......what right would an organization have to accessing criminal evidence? Rice certainly wouldn't have it so I don't know what good it would do asking him for it.singaporesoxfan said:
If I were arrested for a criminal act I don't know how my employer would gain access to evidence. I could be wrong though.
Again i'm assuming the NFL never saw the tape or was unable to access it.
Lets not forget this is the same organization who backed Terrell Suggs after his domestic abuse in 2009. He kicked his girlfriend in the face which broke her nose and poured bleach on her AND her son. It's an embarrassment of a franchise.
The irony is that Goodell probably ended up making it worse for Rice by only giving him two games initially. That made it more of a national story, and made the release of this video more damning. If Rice was already serving 6-8 games when this video broke, he 'd probably still be under contract, and there wouldn't have been pressure on the league to up the punishment.HomeRunBaker said:
The tape was floating around somewhere before today. Chris Mortensen knew exactly what was on the video before today. If he knows, how do the police and league not?Deathofthebambino said:
I am stunned how terribly the league has handled this at each step. To come out today and try to justify the initial suspension by claiming to not have seen the video after the commissioner just came out with his long winded mea culpa acknowledging they screwed up the initial handling...yikes.
HomeRunBaker said:
I'm not a lawyer, so I was going by what dcmissle posted (as quoted below), which seems to be what news sources are reporting as well: Rice and his legal team has the right to the tape, and Goodell could have insisted on a copy of the tape before he sanctioned Rice.
dcmissle said:
It feels to me like Goodell was way out of his depth in understanding domestic abuse and handling punishment for abusers, including reportedly interviewing Janay Rice with Ray Rice in the room on June 16. He might not have seen the video, but it doesn't appear as though he tried very hard to find it.
Obstruction of justice in a double murder. I guess the reason Ray Lewis got the statue and Ray Rice got cut was that Lewis was able to complete the job.
What a disgusting franchise.
What a disgusting franchise.
Captain Laddie knew what was on the tape before today and posted it here. Theres no doubt Nfl media had seen it, at least one of them.Bongorific said:
But sacred cows and league sources take priority.
Bongorific said:
For those wondering (since I haven't seen it posted) what exactly Chris Mortensen reported back in July on the Mike and Mike show:
It's pretty clear that Mortensen's source had seen this video, which makes it impossible the NFL had not.
Yes--Mort 's source was clearly in the NFL office , and they knew exactly what was on the video.
I have to agree with DOTB on this and play devil's advocate and think that there is some likelihood that Goodell and the Ravens hadn't seen the video before. Certainly, if it comes out that they had, then Goodell will be forced to resign and Ravens management will be out. However, it does make some sense to think that if Rice and his wife told them a story how she initiated the attack, Ray defended himself causing her to fall and hit her head, etc.,etc., the NFL and Ravens could have bought it and been somewhat forced to give him the incredibly light punishment up front that they gave him (based on no evidence and the legal system letting Ray off so easily).
I'm not sure about how the legal world works, but I'd be surprised if Ray Rice or the NFL had any way of getting/demanding the tapes themselves. And, frankly, if everyone had seen this tape already - - why did it take this long to leak? If this isn't the case, then the NFL coming out so quickly with their "new evidence" tweet was incredibly stupid. And, as much as Goodell is an easy target for everyone these days, he's not stupid.
I'm not sure about how the legal world works, but I'd be surprised if Ray Rice or the NFL had any way of getting/demanding the tapes themselves. And, frankly, if everyone had seen this tape already - - why did it take this long to leak? If this isn't the case, then the NFL coming out so quickly with their "new evidence" tweet was incredibly stupid. And, as much as Goodell is an easy target for everyone these days, he's not stupid.
I'm all for the plausible deniability angle here, but at this point, it's pretty far fetched to think anything other than:
1) Goodell and the NFL had seen this tape.
2) The Ravens had seen this tape.
Can we concoct stories in which they didn't? I guess. Maybe they only had one tape, and the fiancee was non-cooperative, and everyone who told reporters that they saw the TMZ footage misspoke, etc. But at this point, it seems likely that they just fucked up royally.
At this point, I think the questions should shift to figuring out how Goodell fucked this up so bad, not whether or not he had the information.
1) Goodell and the NFL had seen this tape.
2) The Ravens had seen this tape.
Can we concoct stories in which they didn't? I guess. Maybe they only had one tape, and the fiancee was non-cooperative, and everyone who told reporters that they saw the TMZ footage misspoke, etc. But at this point, it seems likely that they just fucked up royally.
At this point, I think the questions should shift to figuring out how Goodell fucked this up so bad, not whether or not he had the information.