The Krafts

[InstaFace]

The decision on whether to pick a QB at #3 or trade down is a pretty big freaking decision. I don't begrudge the Krafts at all from having some seat at the table or being consulted or whatever you want to call it. It's a completely different level of interference if they were weighing in on which LT to pick in the 2nd round.

Right, but then the decision whether to draft a QB or not is no longer “doing what’s best for the team” or “following our draft evaluations” or whatever other cliche personnel guys would use to justify those moves. By adding the Krafts - other than just telling them this is our plan - you’re injecting the business/PR aspect into the decision which is not something anyone should be happy about.

What input are the Krafts going to have that will actually be net positive for the roster building? They should trust the guys they dumped Belichick for, presumably because they think Wolf/Groh are the right people to get the team back to the playoffs.

Part of management isn't just getting the right people in the door and empowering them, but also in having the skills to question their thought processes and make sure they're considering things the way you would hope they would. Jeff Bezos is known to grill his top people on big decisions, and then rather than imposing his own opinion as a verdict, will often just say something like "ok, I trust you guys" and lets a vetted consensus stand, even if it runs contrary to his gut instinct. But that vetting has value. It ensures people have their numbers right, have considered the alternatives, have thought about tradeoffs and priorities, can credibly articulate how a choice fits within a strategy, etc.

If Jonathan Kraft is overruling his football people on decisions that would otherwise be a consensus, then that is of course deeply concerning. But him merely having a seat at the table on big bet-the-team kind of decisions, and seeing firsthand how his top people make decisions, is not necessarily a sign of micromanaging.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

Part of management isn't just getting the right people in the door and empowering them, but also in having the skills to question their thought processes and make sure they're considering things the way you would hope they would. Jeff Bezos is known to grill his top people on big decisions, and then rather than imposing his own opinion as a verdict, will often just say something like "ok, I trust you guys" and lets a vetted consensus stand, even if it runs contrary to his gut instinct. But that vetting has value. It ensures people have their numbers right, have considered the alternatives, have thought about tradeoffs and priorities, can credibly articulate how a choice fits within a strategy, etc.

If Jonathan Kraft is overruling his football people on decisions that would otherwise be a consensus, then that is of course deeply concerning. But him merely having a seat at the table on big bet-the-team kind of decisions, and seeing firsthand how his top people make decisions, is not necessarily a sign of micromanaging.

vetting a process and giving input into what players a team should or shouldn’t take are two different things

being at the table and hearing how Wolf, Groh et al come to their decision and poking at their reasoning isn’t “heavily involved” which to my implies he’s giving personnel based opinions or input but YMMV

 

[jacklamabe65]

For those of you who have read David Copperfield, Jonathan Kraft, in looks and personality, has always reminded me of Uriah Heap.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

For those of you who have read David Copperfield, Jonathan Kraft, in looks and personality, has always reminded me of Uriah Heap.

Right down to the Easy Livin’?

 

[tims4wins]

vetting a process and giving input into what players a team should or shouldn’t take are two different things

being at the table and hearing how Wolf, Groh et al come to their decision and poking at their reasoning isn’t “heavily involved” which to my implies he’s giving personnel based opinions or input but YMMV

Which is why parsing a reporter’s words is pointless. We have no idea.

 

[rodderick]

This is all stupid because if the Patriots pick a QB at 3 and he fails people will point to Jonathan Kraft as being responsible for forcing Wolf and Mayo's hand, while if the guy turns into an All-Pro he won't get any credit. People are just sowing seeds for a future narrative at this point, no one knows anything.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

This is all stupid because if the Patriots pick a QB at 3 and he fails people will point to Jonathan Kraft as being responsible for forcing Wolf and Mayo's hand, while if the guy turns into an All-Pro he won't get any credit. People are just sowing seeds for a future narrative at this point, no one knows anything.

Correct. One tweet could mean any number of things. Maybe Wolf wants ownership buy in for his big decisions.

 

[jacklamabe65]

Right down to the Easy Livin’?

Life is good when it's inherited.

 

[rodderick]

Correct. One tweet could mean any number of things. Maybe Wolf wants ownership buy in for his big decisions.

The idea that the owner should have no input on the biggest draft pick the franchise has had in 30+ years sounds insane to me. Obviously, if he has veto power or is actively choosing the player there's something warped in the process, but it's crazy how the tide has turned on Kraft to the point that people have built up this archetype of the ideal owner as someone who pretends the franchise is just another business and leaves everything football related to the side. There's a wide gulf between that and Dan Snyder, or David Tepper being in on coaches' meetings questioning their job with analytics. I get Felger and Mazz have a show to do every day, but we kinda don't. Not every tweet is worthy of major concern.

 

[NomarsFool]

Exactly who thinks they “lost” their team at any point during the last 24 years?

2 people? But, I'm not even sure there's 2.

 

[NomarsFool]

Correct. One tweet could mean any number of things. Maybe Wolf wants ownership buy in for his big decisions.

Honestly, he'd be stupid not to. It doesn't protect him if it flames out, but not talking with ownership at all is a really risky move. I have a hard time seeing Wolf not picking whichever of Daniels/Maye is there at 3. NOT doing so, is such an incredibly risky move from a career perspective. So, IF they have decided that they really don't like one or the other, and IF the one they don't like is the one that is sitting there at #3, it would be incredibly wise for him to explain his thinking to the owners beforehand so that he has at least some tacit approval of the move. This has got to be the biggest decision the team has made since Brady's departure and you hope everyone in the organization is on board with it. But, if it doesn't work out, I'm sure somebody somewhere will be planting stoires in the future about how they wanted to go a different direction.

 

[rodderick]

Honestly, he'd be stupid not to. It doesn't protect him if it flames out, but not talking with ownership at all is a really risky move. I have a hard time seeing Wolf not picking whichever of Daniels/Maye is there at 3. NOT doing so, is such an incredibly risky move from a career perspective. So, IF they have decided that they really don't like one or the other, and IF the one they don't like is the one that is sitting there at #3, it would be incredibly wise for him to explain his thinking to the owners beforehand so that he has at least some tacit approval of the move. This has got to be the biggest decision the team has made since Brady's departure and you hope everyone in the organization is on board with it. But, if it doesn't work out, I'm sure somebody somewhere will be planting stoires in the future about how they wanted to go a different direction.

Oh, 100% if they pick whichever one of Maye/Daniels that's left and the guy flames out while JJ McCarthy is the second coming, there'll be "Wolf was in love with JJ, but the rest of the decision makers wanted the other guy" stories. You just had that happen in Vegas with all the leaks about Dave Ziegler not wanting them to sign Garoppolo and being in love with the idea of trading up for CJ Stroud. Always super transparent and also a slam dunk to happen.

 

[Super Nomario]

Almost no one I've ever spoken to or read something from has anything nice to say about Jonathan Kraft. As Death pointed out, that doesn't necessarily mean that Jonathan isn't good at his job (the Sean McDonough comparison was spot on), but it does make me nervous about the future of the team because we do not yet know if Jonathan has enough sense to hire good football people and then get the hell out of the way, like his father did. And while Clark Hunt is doing OK in KC, other failsons around the league like Marc Davis and Mike Brown are not. It remains to be see where Jonathan will fall on the child of an owner spectrum.

Jonathan Kraft has been involved with the team since RKK purchased it, in a variety of roles. I think he's a pretty different scenario than those you mention who were legacies, or say, Jed York who graduated college and then basically got handed a team.

The Kraft’s being meddlesome shouldn’t surprise anyone if these reports are true. They forced Parcells to relinquish Christian Peter’s draft rights shortly after the draft after his DV situation became public knowledge (and back then, perhaps even now, a mid round pick with a DV wouldn’t be seen as an automatic “get this guy off the roster” by most teams).

Minor tangent, but to me owners should 100% have input on these kind of non-football decisions. I think that's wholly appropriate. There were missteps here (Kraft should have told Parcells not to draft Peter in the first place instead of waiting until after), but the image of the team and its role in the community is not stepping on football decisions.

The idea that the owner should have no input on the biggest draft pick the franchise has had in 30+ years sounds insane to me. Obviously, if he has veto power or is actively choosing the player there's something warped in the process, but it's crazy how the tide has turned on Kraft to the point that people have built up this archetype of the ideal owner as someone who pretends the franchise is just another business and leaves everything football related to the side. There's a wide gulf between that and Dan Snyder, or David Tepper being in on coaches' meetings questioning their job with analytics. I get Felger and Mazz have a show to do every day, but we kinda don't. Not every tweet is worthy of major concern.

The problem is that it's a very fine line between giving input and having final say. "Appreciate the input, Mr. Kraft, but we've decided to go in a different direction."

 

[rodderick]

Jonathan Kraft has been involved with the team since RKK purchased it, in a variety of roles. I think he's a pretty different scenario than those you mention who were legacies, or say, Jed York who graduated college and then basically got handed a team.


Minor tangent, but to me owners should 100% have input on these kind of non-football decisions. I think that's wholly appropriate. There were missteps here (Kraft should have told Parcells not to draft Peter in the first place instead of waiting until after), but the image of the team and its role in the community is not stepping on football decisions.


The problem is that it's a very fine line between giving input and having final say. "Appreciate the input, Mr. Kraft, but we've decided to go in a different direction."

I think this is how his relationship with Bill worked for the vast majority of their time together. But I see where you're coming from and how said input when given to an established figure like Belichick could have a different weight than one directed at Mayo and Wolf.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think this is how his relationship with Bill worked for the vast majority of their time together. But I see where you're coming from and how said input when given to an established figure like Belichick could have a different weight than one directed at Mayo and Wolf.

You just want to avoid the Jimmy Haslam situation where a homeless guy told Haslam to draft Manziel and Haslam ordered his team to do so. That's the worst cazse scenario, and I don't think that exact thing will happen here, but you simply cannot have Robert and Jonathan making football decisions. They can be kept in the loop of course, but they cannot have the final say on players.

 

[rodderick]

You just want to avoid the Jimmy Haslam situation where a homeless guy told Haslam to draft Manziel and Haslam ordered his team to do so. That's the worst cazse scenario, and I don't think that exact thing will happen here, but you simply cannot have Robert and Jonathan making football decisions. They can be kept in the loop of course, but they cannot have the final say on players.

Sure, but what I'm arguing is I don't think there's any indication they'll have final say and having input for a franchise altering draft pick is the norm for owners. I just think the Kraft we were sold for 20 years ever actually existed and he was never THAT hands off with Bill. He just didn't exercise veto power, which to me is good enough, but Belichick also had the "okay, thanks, Robert, but we're doing it my way anyway" personality, which helped.

 

[Myt1]

Sure, but what I'm arguing is I don't think there's any indication they'll have final say and having input for a franchise altering draft pick is the norm for owners. I just think the Kraft we were sold for 20 years ever actually existed and he was never THAT hands off with Bill. He just didn't exercise veto power, which to me is good enough, but Belichick also had the "okay, thanks, Robert, but we're doing it my way anyway" personality, which helped.

You’re arguing over and over again that no one should talk about any of this because we don’t know anything 100% for sure, notwithstanding increasing smoke that things are shifting, because being concerned about any of that is talk radio nonsense.

 

[lexrageorge]

I recall several years ago, there was an excerpt of an interview with Jonathan Kraft, where he was asked if Bill had final say on all football personnel decisions. Jonathan responded by saying "Bill has final say on most decisions", with an emphasis on most. But he did not elaborate further. And in the A Football Life segment, Bill is briefly shown having a meeting with the Krafts and others in the front office to discuss the roster.

Just saying that it's not like the Krafts were kept out of the loop before.

 

[rodderick]

You’re arguing over and over again that no one should talk about any of this because we don’t know anything 100% for sure, notwithstanding increasing smoke that things are shifting, because being concerned about any of that is talk radio nonsense.

I didn't say being concerned is talk radio nonsense, I just argued we don't have to overreact to every single specific tweet that comes out as if it represents a wild shift in philosophy. You guys are obviously free to do whatever you want.

 

[Myt1]

I didn't say being concerned is talk radio nonsense, I just argued we don't have to overreact to every single specific tweet that comes out as if it represents a wild shift in philosophy. You guys are obviously free to do whatever you want.

It’s not just a single specific tweet, though, right? They made a move to get rid of a coach with a lot of power. Kraft is commenting on why a receiver didn’t sign here. He is publicly stating his preferences for the use of the third pick in the draft. They just used their production company to burnish their own responsibility for the team’s success. There is a report that the owner was not in favor of trading Jones before last season. Why are you viewing this particular tweet in a vacuum and putting it up against a strawman that someone is arguing that the owners should be completely hands off?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I didn't say being concerned is talk radio nonsense, I just argued we don't have to overreact to every single specific tweet that comes out as if it represents a wild shift in philosophy. You guys are obviously free to do whatever you want.

By the Krafts' own actions since ending their relationship with BB, they are seemingly trying to "take their team back." People aren't just making this up out of whole cloth, there's been a definite push from the Krafts to show they are more involved in the football side of the operations.

EDIT: or what Myt1 said.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Assuming that tweet holds any water, then yes, we are very very very effed.

Honestly, there are only 2 possibilities:

1. Ownership is meddling and being more hands-on.

This is bad because owners suck at it. But it's also bad that someone very clued in (like perhaps Wolf himself) is already so aggravated by this that he's leaking this news to the press.

Worst case scenario.

Or

2. The tweeter or her source is entirely full of shit.

Not a problem.


Jury is out on which of these it is.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Part of management isn't just getting the right people in the door and empowering them, but also in having the skills to question their thought processes and make sure they're considering things the way you would hope they would. Jeff Bezos is known to grill his top people on big decisions, and then rather than imposing his own opinion as a verdict, will often just say something like "ok, I trust you guys" and lets a vetted consensus stand, even if it runs contrary to his gut instinct. But that vetting has value. It ensures people have their numbers right, have considered the alternatives, have thought about tradeoffs and priorities, can credibly articulate how a choice fits within a strategy, etc.

If Jonathan Kraft is overruling his football people on decisions that would otherwise be a consensus, then that is of course deeply concerning. But him merely having a seat at the table on big bet-the-team kind of decisions, and seeing firsthand how his top people make decisions, is not necessarily a sign of micromanaging.

The difference is that Bezos built the company and has obviously demonstrated an aptitude for knowing how to run the business.

Sports teams hire coaches, scouts, managers and the rest by selecting out of the 8 billion people on the planet those who have demonstrated an aptitude for it. Most owners are nothing of the sort. They own teams because they are wealthy. Their kids get jobs because they are their kids.

Maybe the things they did to make or keep their money reflect some capacity for sports team management. I am sure there is some overlap. I guess if your business is trucking logistics, you know your way around a meeting and consensus building and could probably devise an optimal training schedule or whatever.

But by and large the kids of billionaires are not the people anyone would pick. They have fallen into it. Maybe by virtue of being around the team, Kraft Jr. has developed some valuable experience. I doubt if he put himself on the market, though, that the Giants or 49ers or any other team would hire him to be doing draft day QB evaluation.

I guess if the idea is that anyone with a brain can be trained up to be a football guy, then maybe Jonathan by virtue of being around football now for a while has picked it up by osmosis. But if there is actually a talent and aptitude component, there is no reason to expect he has it, while Bezos has proven he does.

 

[rodderick]

It’s not just a single specific tweet, though, right? They made a move to get rid of a coach with a lot of power. Kraft is commenting on why a receiver didn’t sign here. He is publicly stating his preferences for the use of the third pick in the draft. They just used their production company to burnish their own responsibility for the team’s success. There is a report that the owner was not in favor of trading Jones before last season. Why are you viewing this particular tweet in a vacuum and putting it up against a strawman that someone is arguing that the owners should be completely hands off?

They made a move to get rid of a coach with a lot of power because said power meant you couldn't really pin the blame on anyone else in football ops for the team's poor results. It's not like they were in the playoffs every year and Kraft's ego just couldn't deal with Bill running the show, the team stunk. The credit he took for the team's success in The Dynasty was of the "I kept the egos in check" variety, not taking ownership of any football decisions. How is the report of not being in favor of trading Jones any different from the reports of Kraft wanting to keep Brady and being in favor of trading Garoppolo (which couldn't have worked out better for the franchise, by the way)? Kraft also talked to the media about how Lamar Jackson told Meek Mill he wanted to be a Patriot and then put the ball on Bill's court to make it happen. He also openly criticized the team's drafting multiple times over the past years.

I'm not saying reporters are making stuff up, or that the Krafts haven't made moves that indicate they want to "take back control of the team", I just don't think that signifies exerting a power that's meaningfully different from what they've always done. They weren't passive observers before and they aren't about to be Jerry Jones now. It's likely things will change in the direction of them making their influence more known, but I think it'll be more gradative instead of the rupture many are portraying it as.

Maybe I'm bringing over stuff that I'm hearing elsewhere to SoSH and have been more combative than the posters here (mostly logical and reasonable) deserve, but the amount of "Jonathan Kraft is running the show, Jonathan Kraft will make the pick at 3" sentiment that's rampant everywhere just seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill to me. But you're right, it's not really happening here to anywhere near the same extent.

 

[Myt1]

They made a move to get rid of a coach with a lot of power because said power meant you couldn't really pin the blame on anyone else in football ops for the team's poor results. It's not like they were in the playoffs every year and Kraft's ego just couldn't deal with Bill running the show, the team stunk. The credit he took for the team's success in The Dynasty was of the "I kept the egos in check" variety, not taking ownership of any football decisions. How is the report of not being in favor of trading Jones any different from the reports of Kraft wanting to keep Brady and being in favor of trading Garoppolo (which couldn't have worked out better for the franchise, by the way)? Kraft also talked to the media about how Lamar Jackson told Meek Mill he wanted to be a Patriot and then put the ball on Bill's court to make it happen. He also openly criticized the team's drafting multiple times over the past years.

I'm not saying reporters are making stuff up, or that the Krafts haven't made moves that indicate they want to "take back control of the team", I just don't think that signifies exerting a power that's meaningfully different from what they've always done. They weren't passive observers before and they aren't about to be Jerry Jones now. It's likely things will change in the direction of them making their influence more known, but I think it'll be more gradative instead of the rupture many are portraying it as.

Maybe I'm bringing over stuff that I'm hearing elsewhere to SoSH and have been more combative than the posters here (mostly logical and reasonable) deserve, but the amount of "Jonathan Kraft is running the show, Jonathan Kraft will make the pick at 3" sentiment that's rampant everywhere just seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill to me. But you're right, it's not really happening here to anywhere near the same extent.

That’s fair. I appreciate that, and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the response; I was having a little trouble track where you were coming from.

You’re not wrong in some ways; I’m as big of an opponent of thinking that one little thing means everything as you can get (in all contexts), and I, too, think that @Smiling Joe Hesketh is a crazy person with questionable personal hygiene (also in all contexts). Just this stuff feels like a trend is all, and it will be somewhat interesting to see how much of one.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

That’s fair. I appreciate that, and it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the response; I was having a little trouble track where you were coming from.

You’re not wrong in some ways; I’m as big of an opponent of thinking that one little thing means everything as you can get (in all contexts), and I, too, think that @Smiling Joe Hesketh is a crazy person with questionable personal hygiene (also in all contexts). Just this stuff feels like a trend is all, and it will be somewhat interesting to see how much of one.

Hey, I'm been working on the hygiene. The crazy, not so much.

 

[NomarsFool]

He is publicly stating his preferences for the use of the third pick in the draft.

Did he say that exactly, though? I remember he made some sort of comment that the Patriots should draft a really good QB. Well, of course they should, because everyone knows they don't have one. But, I could also see them trading down and drafting someone who they could (or certainly would) describe as a really good QB.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Honestly, there are only 2 possibilities:

1. Ownership is meddling and being more hands-on.

This is bad because owners suck at it. But it's also bad that someone very clued in (like perhaps Wolf himself) is already so aggravated by this that he's leaking this news to the press.

Worst case scenario.

Or

2. The tweeter or her source is entirely full of shit.

Not a problem.


Jury is out on which of these it is.

3. This is just Wolf "managing up." He is keeping his superiors "in the loop," as opposed to them running the show.

 

[mauf]

The dynamic between a team owner and the football operation should be analogous to the dynamic between a board of directors and a CEO. Ultimately, the board hires the CEO to run the company. If the board is explicitly overruling the CEO’s tactical decisions, something has gone wrong — if the board doesn’t trust the CEO’s judgment, they need to replace him/her with someone they do trust. But if the board isn’t engaged in regular oversight — receiving reports and understanding the thought process behind major decisions before they happen — they’re in no position to judge the CEO’s effectiveness. And if the board doesn’t provide strategic guidance about balancing short-term and long-term needs, it’s unlikely that someone else will fill the gap, as management’s focus will always skew short-term for the obvious reasons.

It sounds like the Krafts fall somewhere in the healthy middle ground between the extreme of meddling and abdication of responsibility. With a new management team in place, their oversight will presumably be more rigorous than it was in years past. This is all as it should be. I don’t love that we’re hearing stories that seem to be coming from people chafing under oversight, but the NFL is a different beast; it seems most teams feel at least a little drama is good for business.

 

[dirtynine]

They are arguably hoping to find not just a great QB, but also the next face of the franchise (in a perfect world). That potential person is more than a fairly anonymous left tackle - they’re a talisman, their voice and presentation and charisma does matter. Those qualities are assets to the business. Not to an extent that they overshadow raw on-field talent, but they matter in this case and should be factored in. There are also overlaps (like leadership qualities) that apply to both football and representing the Patriots brand in public. If Kraft is representing the “what does it mean for the organization if [X] is the QB” aspect of the decision, in this specific case, and the front office is worrying about the football part, that seems pretty healthy to me.