The Game Goat Thread: Wk 15 at Miami

SeoulSoxFan

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RedOctober3829 said:
Be happy that they even win the division. Miami has Buffalo next week. The AFC East very well might come down to the final week with Miami having the Jets.
 
Seriously are Bills coming up to Foxboro to beat the Pats with AFC title on the line?
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
Be happy that they even win the division. Miami has Buffalo next week. The AFC East very well might come down to the final week with Miami having the Jets.
 
And that's where your point about 3rd-and-17 really resonates.
 
Stitch is right that next-man-up is the way you have to operate, but a poor description of reality.  You are right that you have to make the best of a bad situation.  3rd-and-17 is not professional grade, and this loss is likely to hurt them very badly.
 

pdaj

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ShaneTrot said:
I love the team and the fight they show, but the injuries are getting to an outrageous level. Its hard to have confidence in a long playoff run when you are missing at least half of your top ten players; Vince, Gronk, Mayo, Seabass, and now probably Solder. Plus Talib is playing but he doesn't look like the same guy before the injury.
 
Only Seattle and SF could have (possibly) withstood the amount of injuries the Patriots have endured and still remained in playoff contention. Hell, heading into the CLE game, the Pats were ascending towards being the best team in the AFC. The Gronk injury was the final death-blow; a team can only take so much. I've never been more impressed with the TB/BB dynamic than in this season.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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pdaj said:
Only Seattle and SF could have (possibly) withstood the amount of injuries the Patriots have endured and still remained in playoff contention. Hell, heading into the CLE game, the Pats were ascending towards being the best team in the AFC. The Gronk injury was the final death-blow; a team can only take so much. I've never been more impressed with the TB/BB dynamic than in this season.
 
Also this team was a legit top 10 defense earlier in the year, with Mayo, Talib, Kelly, WIlfork all healthy. I doubt that team loses to Jets, Panthers, nor Phins if intact.
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
Sweet, so we should just applaud them for giving a great effort. 3 pt lead and 3rd and 17. Make a play and its a different story. Championship teams make a stop there hell, lesser teams stop that. Pussy zone defense the entire day too. I'm so pissed right now.
Take a deep breath. Good teams make shit plays sometimes, it happens. Whether or not they are a championship team will be determined by the degree to which they raise their execution level in the playoffs. The AFC is full of flawed teams, no reason the Patriots can't pull off a run to the SB.

On the other hand, I fucking hate zone defense too.
 

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The knee jerk reaction of so many people to poo poo PI calls is infuriating.
 
Why is not PI because it happens in the end zone at the end of the game?
 
Simms essentially said that and it makes me want to hit him about the nose and face even more than I did in the first place.
 
And that we got a little bit of a gift on the Boyce call last week is of no moment in my view.  THIS play on HooMan was PI, regardless of anything that happened in the past.
 

pdaj

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SeoulSoxFan said:
 
Also this team was a legit top 10 defense earlier in the year, with Mayo, Talib, Kelly, WIlfork all healthy. I doubt that team loses to Jets, Panthers, nor Phins if intact.
 
Correct. The Patriots' defense carried the team the first 5-6 games of the year, easily a top-10 unit. They were punching teams in the mouth. The thought process then was ... if the offense can at least become 1/2-way decent, they have a shot to play in the final game. Ironically enough, heading into last week, the units' roles reversed. With Gronk back, the offense was now leading the way, with the defense having to play 1/2-way decent. 
 

RedOctober3829

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SeoulSoxFan said:
 
Also this team was a legit top 10 defense earlier in the year, with Mayo, Talib, Kelly, WIlfork all healthy. I doubt that team loses to Jets, Panthers, nor Phins if intact.
Unfortunately they aren't here so there's not much that we can accomplish by talking about guys who aren't in the lineup. Injuries suck, but talking about them sounds like sour grapes. Look, I want these guys to pull off a run but does anyone seriously think it happens?
 

SeoulSoxFan

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pdaj said:
Correct. The Patriots' defense carried the team the first 5-6 games of the year, easily a top-10 unit. They were punching teams in the mouth. The thought process then was ... if the offense can at least become 1/2-way decent, they have a shot to play in the final game. Ironically enough, heading into last week, the units' roles reversed. With Gronk back, the offense was now leading the way, with the defense having to play 1/2-way decent. 
 
Also, with so many rookies & 2nd year players getting valuable on-field experience, this Patriots team will be hard to unseat next year as well. 
 
If the number of killer injuries at least regress to the mean (you know, like Wilfork or Kelly not both, or Vollmer or Solder not both), we're looking at another 11-5 to 13-3 season.
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
Unfortunately they aren't here so there's not much that we can accomplish by talking about guys who aren't in the lineup. Injuries suck, but talking about them sounds like sour grapes. Look, I want these guys to pull off a run but does anyone seriously think it happens?
 
The minute the o-line cannot afford Brady adequate protection, they are dead.  I don't care how flawed the other AFC teams are.  We're close to that point if not there already.
 

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TheoShmeo said:
The knee jerk reaction of so many people to poo poo PI calls is infuriating.
 
Why is not PI because it happens in the end zone at the end of the game?
 
Simms essentially said that and it makes me want to hit him about the nose and face even more than I did in the first place.
 
And that we got a little bit of a gift on the Boyce call last week is of no moment in my view.  THIS play on HooMan was PI, regardless of anything that happened in the past.
The refs weren't calling anything all game. It's not like they just swallowed their whistles in the last two minutes. They let a lot go on both sides.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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RedOctober3829 said:
Unfortunately they aren't here so there's not much that we can accomplish by talking about guys who aren't in the lineup. Injuries suck, but talking about them sounds like sour grapes. Look, I want these guys to pull off a run but does anyone seriously think it happens?
 
I was going for lament or nostalgia, but sour grapes work too.
 

rodderick

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Super Nomario said:
The refs weren't calling anything all game. It's not like they just swallowed their whistles in the last two minutes. They let a lot go on both sides.
I'd be okay with this explanation were it not for the third down call the Dolphins got that lead to a crucial TD. The contact there was WAY less blatant than on the Hooman play.
 

Mystic Merlin

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RedOctober3829 said:
Unfortunately they aren't here so there's not much that we can accomplish by talking about guys who aren't in the lineup. Injuries suck, but talking about them sounds like sour grapes. Look, I want these guys to pull off a run but does anyone seriously think it happens?
 
No, the probabilities are not favorable, given the injury situation and the difficulty of reaching the Super Bowl in any event.
 

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50 posts in and I'm not seeing the words "Hightower" and "goat" in the same sentence? He's an awfully low-impact player, and his pass coverage on the RB that last drive was for shit.
 

Soxy

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I don't understand what's bad about giving up 11 yards on 3rd-and-17.  Because forcing 4th-and-6 is apparently not good enough....?
 
I mean, if you want to bitch about the 4th-and-6 play, which was pathetic, then fine.  But the defense did their job on 3rd down.  They just didn't do it on 4th down.
 

rodderick

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Soxy Brown said:
I don't understand what's bad about giving up 11 yards on 3rd-and-17.  Because forcing 4th-and-6 is apparently not good enough....?
 
I mean, if you want to bitch about the 4th-and-6 play, which was pathetic, then fine.  But the defense did their job on 3rd down.  They just didn't do it on 4th down.
 
Considering the Dolphins would obviously go for it in that situation if the 4th down was manageable, yeah, 4th-and-5 isn't good enough.
 

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RedOctober3829 said:
Sweet, so we should just applaud them for giving a great effort. 3 pt lead and 3rd and 17. Make a play and its a different story. Championship teams make a stop there hell, lesser teams stop that. Pussy zone defense the entire day too. I'm so pissed right now.
Maybe you should take a walk or something. 
 
I think Ryan had the best shot to make the tackle on the 4th and 5 but was held / blocked by the WR (not sure which without seeing it again). One thing I thought about is that with the way refs routinely stop calling anything at the end of games that maybe the Pats WR and DBs should break the rules a bit and push off to make the catch late in games. I know it is really tough to do that when you've trained forever not to, but something I'd think about if I were BB (I imagine he has).
 
I think the secondary had a pretty rough and disappointing game. Maybe they are battling injuries but Dennard seemed to get benched in favor of Ryan by the end of the game, and he wasn't very good either. 
 
I'm not sure the 4th and 2 was a terrible call. I would have gone for it but they did end up with the lead with not much time left. The missed FG and bad kickoff were much more damaging. Real disappointing because Gostkowski has been so nails this year.
 
That said it doesn't change too much. The #1 seed was kind of a pipe dream going into the week and they still have a chance to get a bye, and either way they just need to execute in the playoffs and some guys need to be big. Hopefully Dobson can be healthy by then as his size seems important with Gronk out. Pretty concerned about the o-line but we'll see if Solder can come back.
 

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rodderick said:
I'd be okay with this explanation were it not for the third down call the Dolphins got that lead to a crucial TD. The contact there was WAY less blatant than on the Hooman play.
Do you think the Dolphins fans on this board would judge these the same way?
 

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rodderick said:
 
Considering the Dolphins would obviously go for it in that situation if the 4th down was manageable, yeah, 4th-and-5 isn't good enough.
Uh, it wasn't obvious. It was a good call by Philbin but lots of coaches would have kicked it in that situation. 
 

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rodderick said:
 
Considering the Dolphins would obviously go for it in that situation if the 4th down was manageable, yeah, 4th-and-5 isn't good enough.
 
Obviously?  They had all 3 TOs, there was about 3 minutes left, and they were in their own territory.  Right or wrong, I can guarantee you that the majority of NFL coaches would have punted that ball.
 

rodderick

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Super Nomario said:
Do you think the Dolphins fans on this board would judge these the same way?
 
I think Dolphins fans on this board would be absolutely insane if they think there was any less contact on Hooman, than there was on the PI they got. That's not even arguable.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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rodderick said:
I think Dolphins fans on this board would be absolutely insane if they think there was any less contact on Hooman, than there was on the PI they got. That's not even arguable.
 
That's the definition of poor officiating. Inconsistency.
 

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rodderick said:
 
Considering the Dolphins would obviously go for it in that situation if the 4th down was manageable, yeah, 4th-and-5 isn't good enough.
 
This was obvious?  How much football are you watching?  I'm seriously not trying to be a dick, but I think you're either not watching a lot of football, or you're blocking it out.  They had 3 TO with over 3 minutes left. Lots of NFL coaches punt in that situation.  
 
That aside, bitching about a contested 11 yard pass in that spot is ridiculous.  I suspect you'd be flipping out if MIA got 20+ on that play because the Pats played it aggressively.  You've got to prioritize on defense.  The situation actually played out quite well for the Pats, but they made a physical error at the point of attack and got burned.
 
I mean, are you just venting because the Fins outplayed the Pats on that sequence?  The defensive approach was entirely defensible.
 

Soxy

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rodderick said:
 
even if it wasn't obvious, you have to defend the play as if that's what's going to happen.
 
You're fucking insane.  You know how you defend the play?  You don't give up the first down.  That's literally the only thing that matters there.  They failed on 4th down, but they succeeded on 3rd down.  I'm amazed that this is even being argued.
 
Edit to add: I don't mean to sound like a dick either, but I doubt there was any sane Patriots fan who thought to themselves after that play happened: "Fuck, they gave up too many yards.  Now it's only 4th-and-6."
 

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rodderick said:
 
even if it wasn't obvious, you have to defend the play as if that's what's going to happen.
 
So what would have been acceptable? 10 yards, 9 yards, 8 yards? Or did they need a sack or an INT? Where's your line?
 

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TJ Ward, Steve Gregorian Chants of You Suck, Chad Jackson, and Dante Scarnecchia.
 
Scarneccihia? By the 3rd quarter they had their starting guard playing tackle. What's the OL coach supposed to do at that point?
 

Super Nomario

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rodderick said:
 
I think Dolphins fans on this board would be absolutely insane if they think there was any less contact on Hooman, than there was on the PI they got. That's not even arguable.
You are literally bitching about the only penalty called on the Patriots all game.
 

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NortheasternPJ said:
 
Scarneccihia? By the 3rd quarter they had their starting guard playing tackle. What's the OL coach supposed to do at that point?
 
When exactly did Solder leave the game (reports of head injury came in by 3:26pm)? I'm trying to see how close it is to when they abandoned the run, although I understand being behind was a big part of that as well.
 

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I remember some very well reasoned posts in the past from rodderick.
 
I'm taking this page of the thread as rod "Ghosting" it. 
 

Dollar

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Reverend said:
 
When exactly did Solder leave the game (reports of head injury came in by 3:26pm)? I'm trying to see how close it is to when they abandoned the run, although I understand being behind was a big part of that as well.
He went to the sideline at 3:10 PM, so he must have gotten hurt on one of the first few plays of New England's drive that started with 14:54 left in the 4th.
 

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Dollar said:
He went to the sideline at 3:10 PM, so he must have gotten hurt on one of the first few plays of New England's drive that started with 14:54 left in the 4th.
 
It appears they ran three run plays from that point forward.
 

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dcmissle said:
 
And that's where your point about 3rd-and-17 really resonates.
 
Stitch is right that next-man-up is the way you have to operate, but a poor description of reality.  You are right that you have to make the best of a bad situation.  3rd-and-17 is not professional grade, and this loss is likely to hurt them very badly.
Its not professional grade because they lost three of the best players in the front seven and the secondary is all playing at 75%.  Totally agree its not good enough, but cant see getting that angry about it.  They played 3rd down correctly, missed a tackle on 4th down.  Im deflated because the loss hurts, but proud of the effort given.
 

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mikeford said:
No love for Hightower getting absolutely fucking roasted on the game winning TD?
 
Guy absolutely stinks.
 
Hightower had a good game, and was asked to cover the running back by himself on an entire side of the field. There are like 3 LB in the NFL who can do that.
 


Exactly. I've completely given up hope of him ever being a useful starter.
 
He's had some shitty games, but he's been strong the past couple weeks. Calling him out now is curious.
 

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rodderick said:
 
I think Dolphins fans on this board would be absolutely insane if they think there was any less contact on Hooman, than there was on the PI they got. That's not even arguable.
While the contact may have been less the result of the contact was vastly different. 
The Dolphins receiver fell down in the middle of the field with no one else near him and was unable to make a play on the ball.I don't think he catches it if he wasn't contacted but whatever.
Hooman was contacted and turned on his play but was at least able to make a play on the ball and he didn't fall down due to the contact.
 

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Ed Hillel said:
 
Hightower had a good game, and was asked to cover the running back by himself on an entire side of the field. There are like 3 LB in the NFL who can do that.
 
He's had some shitty games, but he's been strong the past couple weeks. Calling him out now is curious.
 
Don't stop the train EH. 
 

ivanvamp

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So here's the situation:
 
Pats have 2 games left:  at Bal, vs Buf
Miami has 2 games left:  at Buf, vs NYJ
 
Pats up 2 games, but it's really "less" than that because if NE loses the next two and Miami wins the next two, Miami wins on tiebreakers. 
 
Now, I have to assume Miami will win both of those games.  They're better than either team and they're playing well.  That means the Pats have to win one of two to clinch the division.  Obviously they're capable of doing that, but I think, like pretty much everyone else here, that next week's game is going to be extremely difficult to win.  So let's say they lose.  That means that week 17 the Pats are essentially playing a playoff game, at home vs. Buffalo.  
 
That's a game they SHOULD win, but my goodness, we went from looking at a #1 seed to potentially not even going to the playoffs in the blink of an eye here.  Now, a few things still need to happen for Miami, but it's all entirely conceivable.  I hate the thought of the Pats NEEDING to win at home vs. Buffalo in order to make the playoffs.
 
**Baltimore is 7-6, with three games left:  at Det, vs NE, at Cin.  That's three very tough games.  I've already penciled in a win for them over NE, and if NE goes 0-2 they finish at 10-6.  Baltimore needs, then, to win all three remaining games in order to get to 10-6.  That's a pretty tall order, so obviously things are still looking good for the Patriots to make the playoffs.  
 

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Hightower had one of his better games in a while.  He was a force at times against the run.  They either hide him in coverage for most of the game or he covered well and wasn't picked on.  He had a difficult one-on-one match-up at the end and Tannehill put the pass in the right spot.  It wasn't great, but certainly not worth burying the guy over.
 
This is a weird season.  Extremely frustrating because this team could have been a juggernaut by now if the early season defense hadn't seen it's best players drop like flies and then the injury bug spread to the offense.  But it's also kind of an extremely satisfying season to watch the team fight and scrap through these 10 wins despite the fact that the early season defense saw it's best players drop like flies and then injury bug spread to the offense.
 

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mikeford said:
No love for Hightower getting absolutely fucking roasted on the game winning TD?
 
Guy absolutely stinks.
I figured that would be mentioned and I'm sure it will be a talking point on sportsradio. But that's a terrible matchup for almost any LB - single-covered on a RB with no safety help or even any DBs on his side of the field (just Spikes playing a zone kinda near). I'm no fan of Hightower but I think he had one of his better games overall and I can't get too down on him for the TD. You have to just hope they call a run, Tannehill doesn't go there or he makes a poor throw I think.
 

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Ed Hillel said:
 
Hightower had a good game, and was asked to cover the running back by himself on an entire side of the field. There are like 3 LB in the NFL who can do that.
 
 
 
 
He's had some shitty games, but he's been strong the past couple weeks. Calling him out now is curious.
Yeah he actually had a real good game going until that play where he was put in an almost impossible situation.
 
I guess I can see Amendola on the goat list because he didn't make a play at a crucial moment but a)he had a great game other than that, his best since game 1 and b)that really is a bad route for him, going up high like that. I would have liked to have seen them try that sprint out they did for the touchdown last week and that they ran earlier. Maybe they thought the Dolphins were looking for just that.
 

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Byrdbrain said:
Yeah he actually had a real good game going until that play where he was put in an almost impossible situation.
 
I guess I can see Amendola on the goat list because he didn't make a play at a crucial moment but a)he had a great game other than that, his best since game 1 and b)that really is a bad route for him, going up high like that. I would have liked to have seen them try that sprint out they did for the touchdown last week and that they ran earlier. Maybe they thought the Dolphins were looking for just that.
 
He is a goat to a lot of us because he is/was supposed to be more then a JAG.  Maybe that expectation was wrong, but I think most of us thought/hoped that he would be a difference maker.  Maybe those expectations were too high or just wrong.  They came crashing down today though when he didn't pull that ball out of the air.