The Celtics Offseason

joe dokes

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Mazzula has the crazy smile going on...looks like someone trying to smile that doesn't know how to.
Tatum is down with it; Brad is trying to stifle laughter at it; Joe is looking for an instructional video.
The last guy I knew with eyes like that said it was because of his blood pressure medicine. (It was neither Jay Larranaga nor Reche Caldwell, fwiw).
 

Deathofthebambino

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Austin Rivers isn’t a good NBA player. Here’s how he compares to other depth guards/smaller wings on our roster already. As you’ll see, there’s really no case for wasting a roster spot on him based purely on talent. I also added in Cameron Payne, who also doesn’t make a ton of sense but at least has upside if his brief stretch of being a good shooter a few years ago were repeatable (I doubt it is).

View attachment 71221
Wait, did we sign Cameron Payne? Have I been asleep?
 

benhogan

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Here's Austin's comments on a recent Bill Simmons podcast:

"So I thought I handled that pretty well, and it just seems like, yeah, I had the weirdest f—ing luck in the NBA. The ironic thing about it is people always talk about me and my entitlement. Or, like, me and my privilege, just because I played for my father for three years. But the reality is, man, I was an elite – and I am still – but I was an elite scorer that got drafted to a team where I wasn’t supposed to even put in a position to do that."

I'm with the consensus here. I just don't think he's any good and never really was.
Exactly, he's a career 35% 3pt shooter who thinks he's an elite scorer/player.

11 NBA seasons and he's never shot 38% or better for a season.

Yuck, he'd be like the Celtics 10th best shooter from distance, but he'd want to take plenty of shots.
The C's have moved on from that nonsense
 

slamminsammya

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Exactly, he's a career 35% 3pt shooter who thinks he's an elite scorer/player.

11 NBA seasons and he's never shot 38% or better for a season.

Yuck, he'd be like the Celtics 10th best shooter from distance, but he'd want to take plenty of shots.
The C's have moved on from that nonsense
His lack of self awareness is hilarious but also probably has helped him immensely.
 

scottyno

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So this story is making the rounds now: Brogdon unhappy about being involved in the trade talks this summer.


Obviously, this is less than optimal. I imagine someone in the Celtics front office is trying to do some damage control. I kind of wonder if Brogdon isn't overreacting a bit. He hasn't been with the team that long, and God knows, GMs are always wheeling and dealing.
We've heard nothing but I can report that he's angry with the team makes no sense, but seems pretty typical of most sports reporting these days
 

benhogan

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From Himmelsbach in the Globe:

▪ The Celtics’ social media team has posted plenty of pictures and videos of these workouts and players’ Boston arrivals. But there has been no sign of guard Malcolm Brogdon.

Brogdon, of course, was hampered by a forearm strain during the conference finals last season. Then in June he was part of the first iteration of the Kristaps Porzingis trade before that deal crumbled and Marcus Smart ended up in the three-team transaction instead.

Brogdon and his camp have been quiet this summer, and members of the Celtics front office have mostly avoided or deflected questions about the Sixth Man of the Year. Something about the situation just feels slightly off.

But the indications I’ve gotten are that the Celtics are not considering trading Brogdon any more than they are considering trading any other player. His sour ending to last year aside, it is worth remembering Brogdon’s value to the Celtics last year. And Smart’s departure figures to only increase his role.

Media day is scheduled for Oct. 2, so there will at least be some clarity then.
 

HomeRunBaker

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We've heard nothing but I can report that he's angry with the team makes no sense, but seems pretty typical of most sports reporting these days
It's the offseason for a veteran not from this area who is recovering from an injury....how would any reporter even know where he is? Dude is probably on an island in Montenegro texting teammates and Brad lol's about these "reports."
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I like this move a lot. Queta looks like a decent free throw shooter for a big (about 70%). Biggest knock against him seems to be that he's the kind of traditional big that the NBA simply doesn't value as much anymore; no outside shot. Also appears he's a bit turnover prone, but you don't want the ball in his hands anyway. But he's moderately beefy, huge, and surprisingly athletic for his size. Knee injury in his past, but seems like a one-time thing that's not causing recurring problems (?). A "violent shot blocker" always warms my heart. Seems to have a few decent-looking post moves. Bigs can develop late, so getting him at 24 seems about right. If he learns to switch well on defense, and takes another step forward, this could be a nice pickup. I was hoping they would grab someone like this. Will be interested to see what he looks like in action.
I assume this is why you gamble on him, right? If he's able to hit his free throws, it should be able to translate to hitting some 3's.
 

Jimbodandy

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It's the offseason for a veteran not from this area who is recovering from an injury....how would any reporter even know where he is? Dude is probably on an island in Montenegro texting teammates and Brad lol's about these "reports."
It's really like reading the "articles" linked on the main page about who's in the running for Chaim Bloom's old job. Writers gonna write.
 

benhogan

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I assume this is why you gamble on him, right? If he's able to hit his free throws, it should be able to translate to hitting some 3's.
I like the Queta addition, BUT expect he'll be in Maine all season and be this year's version of Kabengele. A break the glass in case of emergency 3rd string BIG if two of TL, KP, Al, Luke go down with an injury.

If there is a serious injury to the Center position Brad would probably use his draft stock to add an experienced NBA BIG instead of developing Queta at the NBA level.

Queta should have the greenlight to launch Corner3s at Maine but he's strictly beef/6 fouls at the NBA level this season. If he continues to produce great things in the G-League, adjusts & thrives in the Celtic system at Maine, he could hope to get a Kornet deal next summer. Queta is exactly the type of player that you want to use your two-way contracts on. If he exceeds any of this it's a complete HomeRun.

Properly using/developing your two-ways can be a proxy for late Firsts. Especially if Brad continues to use C's 1st round picks as trade capital (which is exactly what a contender should do).
 

128

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It's the offseason for a veteran not from this area who is recovering from an injury....how would any reporter even know where he is? Dude is probably on an island in Montenegro texting teammates and Brad lol's about these "reports."
I know from talking to colleagues at UVA that Brogdon was seriously unhappy about the way things went down with the would-be trade, and he doesn't feel all warm and fuzzy about being in Boston. That doesn't mean he's bailing on this season or holding out, they say.

The big unknown at this point is the condition of his elbow.
 

lexrageorge

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I know from talking to colleagues at UVA that Brogdon was seriously unhappy about the way things went down with the would-be trade, and he doesn't feel all warm and fuzzy about being in Boston. That doesn't mean he's bailing on this season or holding out, they say.

The big unknown at this point is the condition of his elbow.
If the above is true, it means he's truly higher maintenance than is typical. I mean, a guy who has been twice since he's been drafted is upset at being included in trade talks? And Boston is much, much closer to title contention than Memphis right now.

I'm looking forward to the uninformed speculating about the Celtics medical staff. It wasn't the kind of injury that is supposed to linger no matter what the Lakers shill has to say.
 

Montana Fan

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Re: Brogdon, as has been mentioned, he’s been traded before and after the LAC deal fell through the Celts did trade their longest tenured player instead. It’s a business. He’ll get over it and I expect him to perform well again this season.
 

RorschachsMask

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This is what Himmelsbach said about it yesterday.

Brogdon and his camp have been quiet this summer, and members of the Celtics front office have mostly avoided or deflected questions about the Sixth Man of the Year. Something about the situation just feels slightly off.

But the indications I’ve gotten are that the Celtics are not considering trading Brogdon any more than they are considering trading any other player. His sour ending to last year aside, it is worth remembering Brogdon’s value to the Celtics last year. And Smart’s departure figures to only increase his role.

Media day is scheduled for Oct. 2, so there will at least be some clarity then.
 

jon abbey

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Here's Austin's comments on a recent Bill Simmons podcast:

"So I thought I handled that pretty well, and it just seems like, yeah, I had the weirdest f—ing luck in the NBA. The ironic thing about it is people always talk about me and my entitlement. Or, like, me and my privilege, just because I played for my father for three years. But the reality is, man, I was an elite – and I am still – but I was an elite scorer that got drafted to a team where I wasn’t supposed to even put in a position to do that."

I'm with the consensus here. I just don't think he's any good and never really was.
He isn't good and never was, which is why he always struggled to get minutes, but occasionally when he did get a chance, he was indeed an elite scorer as he said.

16 points in the final 6 minutes of a tied playoff game:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/austin-rivers-became-a-nuggets-playoff-hero-with-one-epic-quarter/

41 points in a game in 2020:

https://www.si.com/nba/rockets/game-day/austin-rivers-leads-rockets-past-kings-career-high-41-points

14 straight points late against UTH in 2020:

https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-news-austin-rivers-clutch-scores-14-straight-points-against-jazz

In 2021, he made 15 straight shots in three quarters:

https://kslsports.com/451922/knicks-g-austin-rivers-makes-15-straight-shots-in-three-quarters-against-jazz/
 

the moops

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I know from talking to colleagues at UVA that Brogdon was seriously unhappy about the way things went down with the would-be trade, and he doesn't feel all warm and fuzzy about being in Boston.
I know nothing about where or how Brogson spends his offseason, and also don't know what your colleagues do.

Is this something that professional athletes do though? Do they go around talking to random people about how unhappy they are in their current situation. Maybe random is the wrong word here, for maybe your colleagues know him well?
 

benhogan

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He isn't good and never was, which is why he always struggled to get minutes, but occasionally when he did get a chance, he was indeed an elite scorer as he said.

16 points in the final 6 minutes of a tied playoff game:

https://nypost.com/2021/05/28/austin-rivers-became-a-nuggets-playoff-hero-with-one-epic-quarter/

41 points in a game in 2020:

https://www.si.com/nba/rockets/game-day/austin-rivers-leads-rockets-past-kings-career-high-41-points

14 straight points late against UTH in 2020:

https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-news-austin-rivers-clutch-scores-14-straight-points-against-jazz

In 2021, he made 15 straight shots in three quarters:

https://kslsports.com/451922/knicks-g-austin-rivers-makes-15-straight-shots-in-three-quarters-against-jazz/
Struggled for minutes? I have to push back here, he played over 2000 minutes (29mpg) for 3 straight seasons.

His cumulative On-Off was terrible over that period and he averaged 14.2 ppg. His leash was about as lengthy as it ever gets for a below-average NBA player.

Greenlight an NBA guard (or Acie Earl, thanks Jimbo) and they will have big scoring games. For example, KPJ put up 50pts on an NBA best defense (Bucks) in 2021. Should we label that turd an "elite scorer"? plus he averaged much more last season than Austin ever did.

"Elite Scorer" is a subjective term. IMO, not only do you need to lead your team in scoring but have to be a TOP20 scorer in the NBA to grab that moniker. His best scoring season was in 2017-18, he was 51st in PPG, right behind Dennis Smith Jr.

Austin hasn't ever been elite anything in the NBA, heck he wasn't even an elite scorer at Duke
 

Jimbodandy

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Per DARKO, Rivers was very briefly (20ish games) a league-average offensive player by impact, many years ago. Unlike his similarly ghastly defensive contemporaries like Clarkson and Booker, he never really improved his offensive efficiency and does so little else on that side of the ball (assist rate 8-9% in the last two years makes Jaylen Brown's passing look like peak Magic) that his offensive impact alone is below replacement level.

That's before you even think about comparing his defense to "the chair", a comparison in which he does not compare favorably. I'd rather PBS troll Lichtenstein Series B or G-League benches.

71290
 

128

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I know nothing about where or how Brogson spends his offseason, and also don't know what your colleagues do.

Is this something that professional athletes do though? Do they go around talking to random people about how unhappy they are in their current situation. Maybe random is the wrong word here, for maybe your colleagues know him well?
I work in the athletic department. They were Malcolm's coaches in college, and this isn't really stop-the-presses news. They're merely confirming what others have reported: that Brogdon wasn't happy with the way the C's handled things. The specifics of his displeasure, I don't know. Perhaps he learned about the would-be trade on social media, like the rest of us.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Stevens fills the "one more wing" gap a lot of us felt was there---but I haven't seen him enough to have any idea whether that's an on-court or just a theoretical roster solution!

Anyone see him enough to have a POV? The Himmelsbach post is what I'd hope for---a guy who can play 15 minutes of respectable defense and non-awful offense when needed and have a bit of physicality to his game. He at least has the size for that (6-6, 230).
 

128

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Stevens fills the "one more wing" gap a lot of us felt was there---but I haven't seen him enough to have any idea whether that's an on-court or just a theoretical roster solution!

Anyone see him enough to have a POV? The Himmelsbach post is what I'd hope for---a guy who can play 15 minutes of respectable defense and non-awful offense when needed and have a bit of physicality to his game. He at least has the size for that (6-6, 230).
Pretty sure Stevens (Lamar, not Brad) had a big game in a Cavs win over Boston last season.
 
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Shaky Walton

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As to Brogdon, it's not hard to imagine that those articles have it right. Not that we have any way to know that. But even though it's a business, Brogdon embraced the 6th man role last year after a career of mostly starting.

Putting aside my mostly worthless tea leaf reading, I hope Brad and Joe make an effort to make Brogdon feel wanted and needed. He's an important piece for them and played very well until he got hurt in the playoffs. Making a house call or two would be good business.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I work in the athletic department. They were Malcolm's coaches in college, and this isn't really stop-the-presses news. They're merely confirming what others have reported: that Brogdon wasn't happy with the way the C's handled things. The specifics of his displeasure, I don't know. Perhaps he learned about the would-be trade on social media, like the rest of us.
The final sentence here is important to understand. 99% of NBA players will hear they are about to be traded....only after the deal is completed. There was no reason for him to ever know about the Clipper deal beforehand and almost certainly heard about it like we all did. Being upset about something like this a is normal response imo even though NBA players should recognize that this is how the business works.
 

BigSoxFan

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As to Brogdon, it's not hard to imagine that those articles have it right. Not that we have any way to know that. But even though it's a business, Brogdon embraced the 6th man role last year after a career of mostly starting.

Putting aside my mostly worthless tea leaf reading, I hope Brad and Joe make an effort to make Brogdon feel wanted and needed. He's an important piece for them and played very well until he got hurt in the playoffs. Making a house call or two would be good business.
There are some decent players in his salary slot, if the relationship sours. Rozier, the Bogdanovic’s, etc. I bet Brad would make a decent deal, if needed. But hopefully this is nothing to worry about.
 

The Mort Report

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Listening to Jordan Walsh's interviews, I so want this guy to succeed, he just seems to get it in the same way Tatum gets it. What I also took from this, grain of salt blah blah, was when asked about guys that are there early working out, the only guys he hasn't seen are Brogdon and Griffin. He's probably just referencing that from when he was drafted, like Grant was still around and he talked about him then. But it's telling that he mentioned Blake to me
 

HomeRunBaker

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I was at that game! Lamar had some big plays down the stretch. Cavs fans were sort of shocked.
And Grant missed both free throws.
Lamar was a big-timer scorer in college....in part because he was so much more physically developed than everyone and part due to Penn State not having any other scorers. I vaguely recall thinking that if he could ever learn how to shoot 3's that he could make it in this league despite being so undersized for a 4.....he hasn't, which makes it so tough to have him on the floor for long stretches. He has that "veteran winner approach" which isn't always common in a young player. Solid get for a contender like us.
 

lovegtm

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There are some decent players in his salary slot, if the relationship sours. Rozier, the Bogdanovic’s, etc. I bet Brad would make a decent deal, if needed. But hopefully this is nothing to worry about.
This is another reason not to get to worked up about how Brogdon feels, one way or the other: given his salary, he's by far the most likely guy on the roster to get packaged with a 1st or two and moved for an upgrade at some point.
 

mcpickl

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I wonder if Brogdon is going to be an issue this year, if the Celtics would insert themselves into the Dame/Miami deal and send Malcolm out for Portland to spin to the Clippers and take back Tatums workout buddy Tyler Herro.(with more moving parts/picks involved, but those guys as the principals)

That Herro contract is really pricy for a one way player, and they’d be helping Miami get Dame, but might be a gamble they could try if the Brogdon relationship is really strained.

i don’t even particularly like it, but was thinking about it as an option
 

BigSoxFan

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I wonder if Brogdon is going to be an issue this year, if the Celtics would insert themselves into the Dame/Miami deal and send Malcolm out for Portland to spin to the Clippers and take back Tatums workout buddy Tyler Herro.(with more moving parts/picks involved, but those guys as the principals)

That Herro contract is really pricy for a one way player, and they’d be helping Miami get Dame, but might be a gamble they could try if the Brogdon relationship is really strained.

i don’t even particularly like it, but was thinking about it as an option
I don’t love it but I also think that the 2nd unit has enough defense to cover some of Herro’s limitations there. He also aligns with the Jay’s window better than Brogdon who is already on the decline in his early 30s. Herro hasn’t been Cal Ripken but he’s a better bet to stay healthy.

I’m sure Plan A remains keeping Brogdon but if they ever have to pivot to Plan B, I would be at least willing to poke around on Herro. But my hunch is that Brad would prefer a lesser option that doesn’t deliver Dame to Miami.
 

Euclis20

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I don't hate the idea of trading Brogdon+ for Herro in a deal involving Miami and the Clippers (even if it means getting Lillard to the Heat, which I feel is really just inevitable at this point), but I don't see how it works. The Clippers don't have any first round picks until 2027, nor do they have the young future all-star that Portland is looking for.
 

mcpickl

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I don't hate the idea of trading Brogdon+ for Herro in a deal involving Miami and the Clippers (even if it means getting Lillard to the Heat, which I feel is really just inevitable at this point), but I don't see how it works. The Clippers don't have any first round picks until 2027, nor do they have the young future all-star that Portland is looking for.
my thinking here wouldn’t be the Clippers trading firsts or a young future all star. It would be Portland taking a Dame package from Miami including all the firsts/kids they have plus Herro, they flip Herro to Boston for Brogdon+, then flip Brogdon to the Clippers for not a ton. They have a couple seconds next year that would probably be enough for Brogdon.

Would just be Portland adding a little more value than they would get just dealing straight up with Miami.
 

Euclis20

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my thinking here wouldn’t be the Clippers trading firsts or a young future all star. It would be Portland taking a Dame package from Miami including all the firsts/kids they have plus Herro, they flip Herro to Boston for Brogdon+, then flip Brogdon to the Clippers for not a ton. They have a couple seconds next year that would probably be enough for Brogdon.

Would just be Portland adding a little more value than they would get just dealing straight up with Miami.
That works if Portland is happy with just a ton of picks from Miami/Boston/LAC. Maybe that's the case, but I feel like they're holding out for a package that involves a younger player with star potential. Maybe Herro has negative value for them due to his contract and positional overlap with the guys already on the roster.
 

Ale Xander

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I don’t love it but I also think that the 2nd unit has enough defense to cover some of Herro’s limitations there. He also aligns with the Jay’s window better than Brogdon who is already on the decline in his early 30s. Herro hasn’t been Cal Ripken but he’s a better bet to stay healthy.

I’m sure Plan A remains keeping Brogdon but if they ever have to pivot to Plan B, I would be at least willing to poke around on Herro. But my hunch is that Brad would prefer a lesser option that doesn’t deliver Dame to Miami.
I think pairing Herro with RW would be good.
 

mcpickl

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That works if Portland is happy with just a ton of picks from Miami/Boston/LAC. Maybe that's the case, but I feel like they're holding out for a package that involves a younger player with star potential. Maybe Herro has negative value for them due to his contract and positional overlap with the guys already on the roster.
they probably have been holding out for a younger player with star potential, but no one has offered one and training camp is closing in fast. If they thought Herro was one, the deal is probably done a month ago.

Unless some team comes in really late here and offers them what they’re looking for, they’re likely either looking at a package of picks/lottery ticket kids, or they’re trying to get Dame to come back for another year.
 

Euclis20

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they probably have been holding out for a younger player with star potential, but no one has offered one and training camp is closing in fast. If they thought Herro was one, the deal is probably done a month ago.

Unless some team comes in really late here and offers them what they’re looking for, they’re likely either looking at a package of picks/lottery ticket kids, or they’re trying to get Dame to come back for another year.
Very true, but they're still in a staring contest with Dame. Teams aren't going to give up a potential all-star for a 6'2 33 year old who is signaling that he might not show up (no matter how unlikely that actually is). If things stay the same, maybe Dame eventually backs off his Miami or bust stance, at which point his risk for other teams drops somewhat and they are willing to offer up something big enough for Portland to bite.

I just don't get the urgency for Portland here. It's not identical, but what Brooklyn did last year with Durant should be their model. A few more months with Lillard on the roster does them no harm at all, unless Dame plays and gets hurt (they might even encourage him to just stay home). Miami's offer isn't going away any time soon, unless they try something really stupid like trading for Harden.
 

benhogan

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Very true, but they're still in a staring contest with Dame. Teams aren't going to give up a potential all-star for a 6'2 33 year old who is signaling that he might not show up (no matter how unlikely that actually is). If things stay the same, maybe Dame eventually backs off his Miami or bust stance, at which point his risk for other teams drops somewhat and they are willing to offer up something big enough for Portland to bite.

I just don't get the urgency for Portland here. It's not identical, but what Brooklyn did last year with Durant should be their model. A few more months with Lillard on the roster does them no harm at all, unless Dame plays and gets hurt (they might even encourage him to just stay home). Miami's offer isn't going away any time soon, unless they try something really stupid like trading for Harden.
Plus given time Dame may cave and greenlight some other promising teams.

Toronto has the talent/salaries to make a deal work