The Brad Stevens thread - More Clueless Than Alicia Silverstone

lexrageorge

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I really don't know what folks expected Danny to do.

A couple of summers ago, Ainge pursued Durant heavily, while also having a handshake agreement with Al Horford. While the Durant pursuit failed, they did manage to sign a valuable player in Horford.

Then Celtics won the Hayward sweepstakes, a move that was unanimously applauded around here, and rightfully so. By doing so, he swapped out Bradley for Morris, which wasn't a horrible move either. He wrestled another pick from Philly in order to draft one of the players he really wanted. Finally, Ainge had Kyrie basically fall into his lap for basically nothing. That 3 star team gelled in training camp and seemed poise to challenge for the East until Hayward's unexpected injury.

The roster for this season was essentially locked in once those above moves were made, aside from players 10-15, who really aren't the problem here.

So, while this team hasn't played to expectations, blaming Ainge is kind of silly unless you have viable alternatives that
Ainge could have pursued instead. Unfortunately, Morris turned into huge attitude problem, and Rozier regressed badly while the kids and Hayward struggled. For some reason, I don't think swapping out Kyrie for Collin Sexton would have resulted in any noticeable improvement in this year's team.

Maybe Ainge should have pursued trades for Jimmy Butler or Paul George a bit harder. But doing that probably would have cost the Celtics at least two of the 3 picks that turned into Brown, Tatum, and Kyrie, and likely would have had other impacts too difficult to project at this point.

Just goes to show that building a winner in the NBA is really hard; sometimes too hard.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Yeah, I think people (myself included) went into this year looking at the success of last year and thinking, "Great, we're a lock for at least the ECF" when really there plenty of signs that this would be a transition year, including Kyrie's upcoming free agency, the Davis sweepstakes, Rozier's newfound confidence, GH still working back from an injury, the fact that many of the key cogs are young players and thus inconsistent, etc.

I don't really see that either Stevens's or Aigne's "fault" - I agree Stevens's stock has taken a bit of a tumble but would the Celtics really be appreciably better with a different coach? I think the answer to that is almost certainly no, although maybe I am just underrating how much importance coaches have with respect to "behind the scenes" stuff like managing egos.
 

RedOctober3829

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Yeah, I think people (myself included) went into this year looking at the success of last year and thinking, "Great, we're a lock for at least the ECF" when really there plenty of signs that this would be a transition year, including Kyrie's upcoming free agency, the Davis sweepstakes, Rozier's newfound confidence, GH still working back from an injury, the fact that many of the key cogs are young players and thus inconsistent, etc.

I don't really see that either Stevens's or Aigne's "fault" - I agree Stevens's stock has taken a bit of a tumble but would the Celtics really be appreciably better with a different coach? I think the answer to that is almost certainly no, although maybe I am just underrating how much importance coaches have with respect to "behind the scenes" stuff like managing egos.
They should have been able to do both of what I bolded. It could have been at least ECF if not NBA Finals but still not a team that is set in stone for the long-term.
 

bosox79

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They should have been able to do both of what I bolded. It could have been at least ECF if not NBA Finals but still not a team that is set in stone for the long-term.
It still could be. I'm also not sure it should have ever been considered a lock. The Bucks, Raptors and 76ers are really good teams. The Pacers too, apparently.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I really don't know what folks expected Danny to do.

A couple of summers ago, Ainge pursued Durant heavily, while also having a handshake agreement with Al Horford. While the Durant pursuit failed, they did manage to sign a valuable player in Horford.

Then Celtics won the Hayward sweepstakes, a move that was unanimously applauded around here, and rightfully so. By doing so, he swapped out Bradley for Morris, which wasn't a horrible move either. He wrestled another pick from Philly in order to draft one of the players he really wanted. Finally, Ainge had Kyrie basically fall into his lap for basically nothing. That 3 star team gelled in training camp and seemed poise to challenge for the East until Hayward's unexpected injury.

The roster for this season was essentially locked in once those above moves were made, aside from players 10-15, who really aren't the problem here.

So, while this team hasn't played to expectations, blaming Ainge is kind of silly unless you have viable alternatives that
Ainge could have pursued instead. Unfortunately, Morris turned into huge attitude problem, and Rozier regressed badly while the kids and Hayward struggled. For some reason, I don't think swapping out Kyrie for Collin Sexton would have resulted in any noticeable improvement in this year's team.

Maybe Ainge should have pursued trades for Jimmy Butler or Paul George a bit harder. But doing that probably would have cost the Celtics at least two of the 3 picks that turned into Brown, Tatum, and Kyrie, and likely would have had other impacts too difficult to project at this point.

Just goes to show that building a winner in the NBA is really hard; sometimes too hard.
All good points and I agree.

My only point is that if fans are seeing coaching deficiencies, does Ainge see them as well? Because one of the main complaints around these parts is that Stevens has been fairly rigid with minutes and rotations. So either Ainge is on the same page with Brad in terms of his coaching or he isn't but is letting Stevens crash & burn regardless.

The latter scenario seems inconsistent with Ainge's track record. As such, if you are criticizing Stevens, you are likely in effect knocking Ainge as well. To me its a stretch to think that he isn't trying to help Stevens course correct.
 

bosox79

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All good points and I agree.

My only point is that if fans are seeing coaching deficiencies, does Ainge see them as well? Because one of the main complaints around these parts is that Stevens has been fairly rigid with minutes and rotations. So either Ainge is on the same page with Brad in terms of his coaching or he isn't but is letting Stevens crash & burn regardless.

The latter scenario seems inconsistent with Ainge's track record. As such, if you are criticizing Stevens, you are likely in effect knocking Ainge as well. To me its a stretch to think that he isn't trying to help Stevens course correct.
Maybe Ainge is letting Stevens crash and burn because Stevens has a lot of fan support. It looks like he'll have considerably less this summer, a summer that will see some huge shifts in the NBA. If he wanted to get rid of Stevens and do another team overhaul, letting Stevens crash and burn is smart.

/tinfoil hat.
 

OurF'ingCity

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They should have been able to do both of what I bolded. It could have been at least ECF if not NBA Finals but still not a team that is set in stone for the long-term.
I think going into the season that was the thinking/hope, but in retrospect I don't really buy this. Can you identify what some other coach would have done differently that would turn them from a good but not great team into a legitimate contender? Certainly there is room for improvement on the margins but not sure how much some minor tweaks in minutes would have a significant impact on the season (and I suspect Ainge and Stevens feel the same way which is why they don't appear particularly concerned with major changes to the rotation).
 

HomeRunBaker

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All good points and I agree.

My only point is that if fans are seeing coaching deficiencies, does Ainge see them as well? Because one of the main complaints around these parts is that Stevens has been fairly rigid with minutes and rotations. So either Ainge is on the same page with Brad in terms of his coaching or he isn't but is letting Stevens crash & burn regardless.

The latter scenario seems inconsistent with Ainge's track record. As such, if you are criticizing Stevens, you are likely in effect knocking Ainge as well. To me its a stretch to think that he isn't trying to help Stevens course correct.
I don’t feel there is any way Ainge doesn’t support Brad’s minute distribution. Most of the complaints here is from game thread talk based primarily off recent small samples. No rational person is going to simply bench quality players at the NBA level.
 

lovegtm

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If we are criticizing Stevens - and to be crystal clear, its entirely fair to do so - Ainge cannot be spared here.

Stevens is his handpicked coach with what appears to be a longterm commitment and this is Ainge's roster. Its also hard to imagine that Stevens is managing the team without significant input from Ainge.

So either Ainge is comfortable with the process or is asleep at the switch given how the team has struggled in spots this year.

In short, if we are saying Stevens isn't the right fit for this team, perhaps we ought to consider whether Ainge is the right guy to build the roster.
I've said it before, but I really want to hear an oral history of this team someday, particularly from the coaching staff's perspective. It's pretty clear imo that 2018-2019 basketball performance considerations are not the front office's primary drivers.

And to be honest, given how friggin good the Warriors are, that might be a reasonable choice.
 

lovegtm

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Maybe Ainge is letting Stevens crash and burn because Stevens has a lot of fan support. It looks like he'll have considerably less this summer, a summer that will see some huge shifts in the NBA. If he wanted to get rid of Stevens and do another team overhaul, letting Stevens crash and burn is smart.

/tinfoil hat.
Not ready to wear the tinfoil hat, but this is an awesome conspiracty theory.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Maybe Ainge is letting Stevens crash and burn because Stevens has a lot of fan support. It looks like he'll have considerably less this summer, a summer that will see some huge shifts in the NBA. If he wanted to get rid of Stevens and do another team overhaul, letting Stevens crash and burn is smart.

/tinfoil hat.
This is possible but it doesn't make sense. Ainge hired Stevens without any professional experience and gave him a long term commitment. If Stevens is not up to the job of managing a veteran roster, its a bad look for Danny in reaching for a new guy versus hiring a seasoned coach like, say, a Van Gundy or an assistant from one of the better franchises and then having to fire him down the road.

Frankly, I like Stevens and think that while some criticism is fair, his job should not be in question given the a variety of mitigating factors including the roster construction.

Again, unless you believe Stevens runs the team without any input from above, Ainge deserves just as much heat as Brad from those critical of rotations, minutes etc.
 

TripleOT

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I'm 100% certain that the front office, coach, and ownership are on the same page, despite this team's struggles. After the team went 4-8 in November, they tried the Marcus/Marcus starting line up, and have stuck with it for a half a season's worth of games. The Marcus/Marcus starting lineup team was winning at a 60 game/season clip until that freak play at the end of the Lakers game sent the team into a ten game tailspin, going only 3-7.

With the dreaded West Coast swing starting at GS tomorrow night, I don't expect Stevens to make a change. I might be looking at this team through green tinted glasses, but i expect them to turn things around on the West Coast. If they can upset the Warriors, they will sweep the trip <hot take alert>
 

chilidawg

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With the dreaded West Coast swing starting at GS tomorrow night, I don't expect Stevens to make a change. I might be looking at this team through green tinted glasses, but i expect them to turn things around on the West Coast. If they can upset the Warriors, they will sweep the trip <hot take alert>
Okay, I'm on the bus.
 

bosox79

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I don't think swapping out Kyrie for Collin Sexton would have resulted in any noticeable improvement in this year's team.
.
No, but swapping out Terry Rozier for Collin Sexton might. I know that was never a possibility. I think part of the problem is this team shoots a lot of 3s but doesn't really have a lot of good to great shooters outside Tatum and Kyrie. They are 18th in pace of play but 6th in 3PA/G. Of course, they are 6th in 3P% too so maybe it's not a problem. The league average is .354, the Celtics are at .364. They only have 4 players above that .354 mark though (unless you include Theis). Irving at .417, Tatum at .369, Morris at .384 and Smart at .369.

They don't really have any bad shooters either, just a lot of average ones. I think replacing Rozier with a great to elite shooter would do wonders. Sexton probably isn't that guy due to his inexperience though.
 

TripleOT

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No, but swapping out Terry Rozier for Collin Sexton might. I know that was never a possibility. I think part of the problem is this team shoots a lot of 3s but doesn't really have a lot of good to great shooters outside Tatum and Kyrie. They are 18th in pace of play but 6th in 3PA/G. Of course, they are 6th in 3P% too so maybe it's not a problem. The league average is .354, the Celtics are at .364. They only have 4 players above that .354 mark though (unless you include Theis). Irving at .417, Tatum at .369, Morris at .384 and Smart at .369.

They don't really have any bad shooters either, just a lot of average ones. I think replacing Rozier with a great to elite shooter would do wonders. Sexton probably isn't that guy due to his inexperience though.
Looking at Rozier's poor splits as a reserve, 7.9 ppg on 8 shots, 36/32% shooting, and considering his lackluster defensive effort off the pine, any garden variety experienced backup PG would have helped this team to at least a handful of more wins. (Rozier as a starter, 13.3 ppg on 10 shots, 44/41/94% shooting, 5.4 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 1.2 tos.)

A competent backup PG that can hold and build on a lead when entering the game at the end of the first quarter would have changed the entire dynamic of this team.
 

bosox79

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This is possible but it doesn't make sense. Ainge hired Stevens without any professional experience and gave him a long term commitment. If Stevens is not up to the job of managing a veteran roster, its a bad look for Danny in reaching for a new guy versus hiring a seasoned coach like, say, a Van Gundy or an assistant from one of the better franchises and then having to fire him down the road.

Frankly, I like Stevens and think that while some criticism is fair, his job should not be in question given the a variety of mitigating factors including the roster construction.

Again, unless you believe Stevens runs the team without any input from above, Ainge deserves just as much heat as Brad from those critical of rotations, minutes etc.
How do you know he wouldn't hire a seasoned coach to replace Stevens once he trades away 90% of the roster? I guess you mean signing Stevens in the first place wouldn't have made any sense but the team was in a rebuilding phase at first and he's been the head coach for 6 years. Maybe Ainge thought Stevens was up for the job of managing a vet roster but didn't have any proof one way or the other. Maybe he sees this season as proof Stevens can't and moves on from him.

Again, I don't think this is the case but if Ainge wasn't on the same page as Stevens, it makes sense to move away from Stevens this summer when the 19/20 team could be completely different than the 18/19 one.
 

TripleOT

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If the Celtics move on from Stevens, where does he land? I'm guessing Duke, assuming Coach K, age 72! with almost 40 years at Duke, would be willing to give it up
 

tbb345

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I really don't know what folks expected Danny to do.

A couple of summers ago, Ainge pursued Durant heavily, while also having a handshake agreement with Al Horford. While the Durant pursuit failed, they did manage to sign a valuable player in Horford.

Then Celtics won the Hayward sweepstakes, a move that was unanimously applauded around here, and rightfully so. By doing so, he swapped out Bradley for Morris, which wasn't a horrible move either. He wrestled another pick from Philly in order to draft one of the players he really wanted. Finally, Ainge had Kyrie basically fall into his lap for basically nothing. That 3 star team gelled in training camp and seemed poise to challenge for the East until Hayward's unexpected injury.

The roster for this season was essentially locked in once those above moves were made, aside from players 10-15, who really aren't the problem here.

So, while this team hasn't played to expectations, blaming Ainge is kind of silly unless you have viable alternatives that
Ainge could have pursued instead. Unfortunately, Morris turned into huge attitude problem, and Rozier regressed badly while the kids and Hayward struggled. For some reason, I don't think swapping out Kyrie for Collin Sexton would have resulted in any noticeable improvement in this year's team.

Maybe Ainge should have pursued trades for Jimmy Butler or Paul George a bit harder. But doing that probably would have cost the Celtics at least two of the 3 picks that turned into Brown, Tatum, and Kyrie, and likely would have had other impacts too difficult to project at this point.

Just goes to show that building a winner in the NBA is really hard; sometimes too hard.
I was positive throughout the off-season that Danny was going to trade Morris and Rozier for picks and/or young players. Mostly because of the luxury tax but also because those 2 seemed to be guys who REALLY didn't want to come off the bench and had the potential to have their attitude turn.

I completely understand why Danny didn't trade Terry and it was a good hedge. If Kyrie got hurt this season then DA would look like a genius for holding on to his insurance policy.
Morris started out the year on fire and seemed like he had turned the corner as a player.

Basically, I don't fault Ainge for doing what he did at all but I do think there are a few things wrong with this team right now that could have been foreseen coming into the season. I think the degree of those issues is much more severe than anyone had anticipated
 

InstaFace

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Coach K will be there until someone drives a wooden stake through his heart, he lives forever by drinking the blood of the young.

The idea that Ainge is setting Stevens up for failure to smooth a transition away from him is just plain nuts. He has a 5-year track record of exceeding expectations. He'd need more than just this season underperforming before Wyc & the brain trust questioned the trust they placed in him.
 

bosox79

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Looking at Rozier's poor splits as a reserve, 7.9 ppg on 8 shots, 36/32% shooting, and considering his lackluster defensive effort off the pine, any garden variety experienced backup PG would have helped this team to at least a handful of more wins. (Rozier as a starter, 13.3 ppg on 10 shots, 44/41/94% shooting, 5.4 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 1.2 tos.)

A competent backup PG that can hold and build on a lead when entering the game at the end of the first quarter would have changed the entire dynamic of this team.
A competent backup PG would allow us to start Hayward, Kyrie and Smart together too if Stevens chose to do so. I think some team is going to regret signing Rozier this summer unless he drastically improves his 3 point shot and shot selection.
 

DeadlySplitter

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The Marcus/Marcus starting lineup team was winning at a 60 game/season clip until that freak play at the end of the Lakers game sent the team into a ten game tailspin, going only 3-7.
so a fluke play is the cause of the most recent tailspin? no way.

(it's the schedule.)
 

TripleOT

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so a fluke play is the cause of the most recent tailspin? no way.

(it's the schedule.)
It started the tailspin. It obviously isn't the cause of it. This team had big problems, but seemed to iron out a lot of them when they started winning, and then when they lost that big lead against the Lakers, they fell back into their bad habits.

If they grab the ball after the big Horford block on Ingram, and box out Green at the end of the home game versus the Warriors, and close out the game better in Milwaukee, this season would have played out a lot differently. Last season, before Kyrie was lost for the years, he made a bunch of crunch time plays, and the C salvaged a bunch of games that they had either gave up a big lead or lost one.

Despite all the panic in Celtics Land, the team is 5th in defense and 10th in offense. Last season they were 1st in defense and 18th in offense. Once they tighten up the D, and start closing out games better, they should be back on track. That is, unless the team implodes due to all the issues that have been lingering all year. I look forward to seeing how they follow up the big ass kicking they laid on the champs in Oakland.
 

benhogan

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the analytical side of me hopes Kyrie returns

BUT I'm fine going with Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, Baynes, Hayward, TL, MLE and draft picks. Led by CBS with a heavy emphasis on defense, ball movement and discipline.

CBS deserves plenty of criticism for this past season, but I'm happy he is our coach. I have a feeling Brad will take a lot from this past season, will learn from some of the mistakes he made and come back a better coach.
 

luckiestman

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All I learned about Brad is that he mixes with Kyrie like oil mixes with water.

Reminds me of Melo getting Mike D thrown out of town.
 

nattysez

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Great work, Brad.

"You hate to pick on Gordon Hayward because he was coming back from injury and he was doing the best he could, but I really think that’s where it started," she said. "They were force feeding him on his teammates, Brad [Stevens] knew Gordon well, he wanted to get his confidence back.

"I would contend that Brad Stevens would have done that for any player on that roster that had a catastrophic injury, he would want to fill him with that same confidence, but that’s not what happened," MacMullan continued. "He gave the benefit of the doubt over and over to a player that wasn’t ready, to a guy who had history with him, and it rankled that locker room, and it bothered that locker room."

***

It doesn't matter who you are, taking a back seat to someone you think you've shown you're at least at the same level as is difficult to do. And as MacMullan explains, it can lead to conclusions about the motives of someone like Stevens who's calling the shots.

"I think [the other players] drew conclusions that probably weren’t even fair or accurate, but it doesn’t matter," she said. "If you feel that way, then it’s real."
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, I mean, she even says in the part you quoted the players weren't being fair or accurate, but nice job Brad!!!
I think what she meant was that even though the players weren't being fair or accurate that was still the perception and perception is reality.
 

djbayko

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"You hate to pick on Gordon Hayward because he was coming back from injury and he was doing the best he could, but I really think that’s where it started,"
Is this just what she thinks or does she have sources? It's hard to believe that these athletes don't understand: (a) the need for a player to work his way back into playing shape, and (b) that getting to the playoffs at optimal strength is of most importance when you have championship aspirations.

Kyrie was getting his minutes the whole time, right? What's his excuse for flaking out?
 

luckiestman

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Is this just what she thinks or does she have sources? It's hard to believe that these athletes don't understand: (a) the need for a player to work his way back into playing shape, and (b) that getting to the playoffs healthy is of most importance when you have championship aspirations.

She had Kyrie and Brown talking to her for a while.
 

DrewDawg

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I think what she meant was that even though the players weren't being fair or accurate that was still the perception and perception is reality.
I know. I guess I'm more laboring under the impression that the flaw isn't in what he did with Hayward, but in assuming players would understand.
 

scottyno

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Considering how Hayward started the year vs how he ended the year (bucks series excluded), it's hard to argue that force feeding Hayward minutes he wasn't earning at first didn't end up working out exactly how the Cs hoped.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I know. I guess I'm more laboring under the impression that the flaw isn't in what he did with Hayward, but in assuming players would understand.
I think Hayward might have been a proximate cause - the immediate thing that happened that caused problems. But I think the underlying cause was something different: a badly constructed roster (too much redundancy in some areas, weakness in others) combined with the wrong mix of personalities. Throughout the Celtics rebuild, Ainge has always prioritized talent over fit, and that has usually worked out, but last year it did not.

In other words, last year's Celtics were a fragile team. If it hadn't been Hayward, it would have been something else.
 

benhogan

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Regardless of Jackie's article, starting Gordon Hayward day 1 last year was rushed and forced. It's a fact now and can't be massaged away. Compounded with the fact he's not a 4, a big wing, or whatever you want to label it. Brad admitted as much by seasons end with his starting group.
 

Euclis20

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Sounds about right but it had to be like this. The Celtics came into last season as title contenders, which was based on the assumption that Hayward would return as a versatile, all star caliber wing. Unless he returned to that level, the Celtics were not title contenders.

Maybe they could have found a more diplomatic way to do it, but one way or another, the Celtics had to get Hayward back to his 2016-2017 level if they wanted to have a chance. If they'd treated him as they would a random 6th man, maybe they win 2-3 games in the regular season and still get bounced in round 2 by either Milwaukee or Toronto because without Hayward at 100%, they were a solid level below those two teams regardless of what else occurred.

You can do everything right (not that that necessarily happened here) and it can still turn out poorly. C'est la vie.
 

Captaincoop

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The dynamic of Hayward being Brad's college star was ripe for this kind of thing to happen.

It's similar to a coach having his own son on his team. Even if you're treating him the way you treat everyone else, the guy who gets sat down so that he can play is very likely going to go there emotionally.

Then factor in the success the team had without Hayward last year AND the fact that Stevens and Hayward are two dorky, white guys from the midwest in a league where that's not a common demographic, and you have a recipe for guys to perceive exactly what Jackie writes they did. And the "leader" on the team, the one who was best positioned to quash this kind of stuff for the good of the team, was a paranoid jerk.

I've thought this was part of the problem for a while. Jackie is a great reporter and she may have nailed this.
 

NomarsFool

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This was mentioned elsewhere, but one of the problems with the Celtics coaching staff is that they lack a relatable assistant coach; e.g. a recent NBA player. Totally speculating here, but you can certainly imagine some NBA athletes tuning out an X's and O's guy who never played a minute in the league. Having someone who was actually a successful player in the league on the staff could be very helpful. It's a super extreme example, but the team seems to be missing that KG-style cultural leader. I think an assistant coach could help with some of that (not that anyone could be like KG was - he was pretty unique).
 

Cellar-Door

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This was mentioned elsewhere, but one of the problems with the Celtics coaching staff is that they lack a relatable assistant coach; e.g. a recent NBA player. Totally speculating here, but you can certainly imagine some NBA athletes tuning out an X's and O's guy who never played a minute in the league. Having someone who was actually a successful player in the league on the staff could be very helpful. It's a super extreme example, but the team seems to be missing that KG-style cultural leader. I think an assistant coach could help with some of that (not that anyone could be like KG was - he was pretty unique).
Maybe, I mean up until last year they did have one in McCarty. The other option is to look for a Vince Carter type vet who is well respected, but also willing to take a limited role. Problem is those are hard to find

Edit- James Posey might be a good pickup, may be available with the change of head coaches in CLE, and he's supposedly well regarded. Though wonder if Vogel and LAL would have the inside track with LeBron there.
 
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nattysez

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I know. I guess I'm more laboring under the impression that the flaw isn't in what he did with Hayward, but in assuming players would understand.
So why jump down my throat in your initial response?

If Stevens and Ainge didn't realize that a group of millennial African-Americans who'd had success as a group and knew the story around the end of IT's time with the team were going to have a problem with a white favored son getting what seemed to be preferential treatment despite being an inferior player (due to injury, granted), they should spend the summer in management classes.

Hopefully JackieMac has the story wrong.
 

cheech13

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Is this just what she thinks or does she have sources? It's hard to believe that these athletes don't understand: (a) the need for a player to work his way back into playing shape, and (b) that getting to the playoffs at optimal strength is of most importance when you have championship aspirations.

Kyrie was getting his minutes the whole time, right? What's his excuse for flaking out?
Granted, I've never played at the professional level but I did at lower levels and I can say that your assertion is probably 100% wrong. Nobody wants to give up minutes to an inferior, injured player no matter what, and certainly not when that guy is essentially the Teacher's Pet (sorry, it's kind of true). These are competitors. They want to win and they want to show what they can do.

If Brad Stevens is as good of a coach as everyone thinks he is he'll learn from this and grow. There was a thread on this board a while back asking if Stevens is the league's best coach and I said there was no way because he never had to deal with petulant stars or title expectations. We hadn't seem him deal with underachievement or adversity. How he handles things next year will tell us a lot. Coaching in the NBA is a lot X's and O's, but it's also a lot more than that. He blew it this year. It doesn't mean he can't come back stronger next year.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan (pending trade)
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
6,227
Santa Monica
Granted, I've never played at the professional level but I did at lower levels and I can say that your assertion is probably 100% wrong. Nobody wants to give up minutes to an inferior, injured player no matter what, and certainly not when that guy is essentially the Teacher's Pet (sorry, it's kind of true). These are competitors. They want to win and they want to show what they can do.

If Brad Stevens is as good of a coach as everyone thinks he is he'll learn from this and grow. There was a thread on this board a while back asking if Stevens is the league's best coach and I said there was no way because he never had to deal with petulant stars or title expectations. We hadn't seem him deal with underachievement or adversity. How he handles things next year will tell us a lot. Coaching in the NBA is a lot X's and O's, but it's also a lot more than that. He blew it this year. It doesn't mean he can't come back stronger next year.
100% agree here and I'll add the highest paid guy (sorry, money matters)

You had to be a complete green glassed homer if you thought Brad's starting unit, rotations or minutes made any sense to begin the season. It was obvious in the preseason, the first 5, 20 games, all season long.
While it's fashionable to lay 2018-19 underperformance on Kyrie's lack of leadership, Brad/Celtic mgmt deserve as much blame as Ky.

I expect Brad and Danny to learn from this and rebuild the team behind the J's, Smart and better role players and execute better in the future. Unfortunately, now with Al Horford leaving, it's going to be a couple of years before they are back in contention conversation.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,096
So why jump down my throat in your initial response?

If Stevens and Ainge didn't realize that a group of millennial African-Americans who'd had success as a group and knew the story around the end of IT's time with the team were going to have a problem with a white favored son getting what seemed to be preferential treatment despite being an inferior player (due to injury, granted), they should spend the summer in management classes.

Hopefully JackieMac has the story wrong.
Went racial here, huh? Cool.

This stuff is such nonsense. Hayward lost his starting job, didn't complain about it publicly, and averaged under 9 shots a game. His last healthy season he was an All Star who came here on a max deal. How often should he have shot? Five times a game? Three? Zero?

He affected Tatum and Jaylen, if not zero, near zero.

Tatum started every game he played, played more minutes per game and put up more shots per game than last season.

Jaylen was a starter to begin the season, he stunk, got injured, and lost his job to Marcus Smart not Gordon Hayward. That affected his role, not Gordon Hayward. They wanted him to start just like last year.

Rozier had his role cut, but that's mostly because Kyrie was back.

If these guys think Hayward got preferred treatment from Brad and it cost them in their roles, they're wrong. And it's not on Brad if they feel that way anyway, it's on them.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
3,930
Lisbon, PT
Went racial here, huh? Cool.

This stuff is such nonsense. Hayward lost his starting job, didn't complain about it publicly, and averaged under 9 shots a game. His last healthy season he was an All Star who came here on a max deal. How often should he have shot? Five times a game? Three? Zero?

He affected Tatum and Jaylen, if not zero, near zero.

Tatum started every game he played, played more minutes per game and put up more shots per game than last season.

Jaylen was a starter to begin the season, he stunk, got injured, and lost his job to Marcus Smart not Gordon Hayward. That affected his role, not Gordon Hayward. They wanted him to start just like last year.

Rozier had his role cut, but that's mostly because Kyrie was back.

If these guys think Hayward got preferred treatment from Brad and it cost them in their roles, they're wrong. And it's not on Brad if they feel that way anyway, it's on them.
I think that all of this is true, and it’s also possible that the players involved took the easy way out by blaming Hayward. It’s a lot easier to take the stupid “coach’s pet” narrative than it is to look in the mirror.

And yes, some of what made that narrative easy to latch on to may have been racial. We’ll likely never know, but it’s not a crazy inference.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
449
Brooklyn by way of Orono
If these guys think Hayward got preferred treatment from Brad and it cost them in their roles, they're wrong. And it's not on Brad if they feel that way anyway, it's on them.
It seemed weird to me at the time Hayward was getting all those minutes of suck, and I commented as much on SOSH while also recognizing the long game. With a contract on the line it must have been excruciating.

I also understand the desire to blame the players, as everyone has ultimate responsibility for their choices, but a coach has a real responsibility to deliver difficult messages to highly competitive athletes playing for 8 figure deals and still keep them in line. After Xs and Os, its essentially the job.

For some reason I've been resistant to blaming Brad for what happened, but he deserves a bigger blame pie (still after players and Danny) then I was giving out. Both coach and GM definitely can learn from this, and DA may learn not to put Brad in this situation again.