The Brad Stevens thread - More Clueless Than Alicia Silverstone

DJnVa

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It seemed weird to me at the time Hayward was getting all those minutes of suck, and I commented as much on SOSH while also recognizing the long game. With a contract on the line it must have been excruciating.
Who had contract on line that was affected by Hayward? Morris played pretty damn well at the beginning of year. Rozier's minutes were a function of Kyrie's, not Gordon's. Tatum and Brown weren't playing for a contract (in the sense that they were about to be FAs).
 

mcpickl

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It seemed weird to me at the time Hayward was getting all those minutes of suck, and I commented as much on SOSH while also recognizing the long game. With a contract on the line it must have been excruciating.

I also understand the desire to blame the players, as everyone has ultimate responsibility for their choices, but a coach has a real responsibility to deliver difficult messages to highly competitive athletes playing for 8 figure deals and still keep them in line. After Xs and Os, its essentially the job.

For some reason I've been resistant to blaming Brad for what happened, but he deserves a bigger blame pie (still after players and Danny) then I was giving out. Both coach and GM definitely can learn from this, and DA may learn not to put Brad in this situation again.
But, do we know he didn't deliver these difficult messages?

Brad doesn't seem like a coach afraid to have tough conversations with his players. He pulled Hayward from the starting rotation. That had to be a tough conversation, no?

What if he had the conversations, and the player still doesn't buy it? Is it on the coach, or the player?

I choose the latter.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It won't stop people from assessing blame but even with MacMullan's report, we only have one alleged perspective on what happened last year. And it has a specific bias that may or may not reflect a widely held view in the locker room.

This is what happens when you have large organizational turnover - all sorts of dirty laundry gets aired and it may or may not be an accurate depiction of what transpired.

mcpickl is spot on - we don't know if or how Stevens messaged Hayward's playing time to the team. I don't expect people to stop drawing conclusions about everything around this team (or all the teams we cover on this forum) from small bits of information that may be agenda driven. However we should, at least, acknowledge that anything we are being fed through the media may be in the service of something other than the truth.
 

DJnVa

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And all this aside, it was clear the team wasn't upset with Hayward himself, because we saw how, when he had those games, the team was very happy for him. So it seems they at least separated that aspect of it.
 

sezwho

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Who had contract on line that was affected by Hayward? Morris played pretty damn well at the beginning of year. Rozier's minutes were a function of Kyrie's, not Gordon's. Tatum and Brown weren't playing for a contract (in the sense that they were about to be FAs).
Yes, Morris and TR were playing for contracts and the Js were playing for meaningful roles coming off a huge season.

You can draw an arbitrary line around PG minutes, but there are multiple multi-guard/small options so Kyrie/TR is not a zero sum game.

But, do we know he didn't deliver these difficult messages?
What if he had the conversations, and the player still doesn't buy it? Is it on the coach, or the player?
I choose the latter.
I think he did deliver them, but my caveat was delivering them & keeping them focused on team success, and this goal was clearly not achieved.

That multiple players struggled with minutes and roles throughout the season, to the absolute detriment of the outcome, points to institutional failure at the management level...ie coach/GM.

fwiw, I've publicly ranted about TR and KI here, so its not like I'm an apologist (would I know if I were?). I don't see it as an or, but a how much blame for both.
 

mcpickl

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Yes, Morris and TR were playing for contracts and the Js were playing for meaningful roles coming off a huge season.

You can draw an arbitrary line around PG minutes, but there are multiple multi-guard/small options so Kyrie/TR is not a zero sum game.



I think he did deliver them, but my caveat was delivering them & keeping them focused on team success, and this goal was clearly not achieved.

That multiple players struggled with minutes and roles throughout the season, to the absolute detriment of the outcome, points to institutional failure at the management level...ie coach/GM.

fwiw, I've publicly ranted about TR and KI here, so its not like I'm an apologist (would I know if I were?). I don't see it as an or, but a how much blame for both.
I mean, I advocated for trading Rozier before the season, because I thought they had one too many guys. But I don't know what the coach could've done about it. They had 8 players who all think they should play 30 minutes a night. I don't know what conversations he could have to alleviate that.

I even get why Ainge didn't trade Rozier. I think it was pretty clear he was saving every asset to throw into an AD deal, and having Rozier sign and trade rights were probably more valuable than any asset they could've gotten for him last summer.

Just feels like they gambled that it would likely get sorted out by one of those 8 guys getting injured to alleviate the minutes crunch, and those guys largely stayed healthy.
 

sezwho

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I mean, I advocated for trading Rozier before the season, because I thought they had one too many guys. But I don't know what the coach could've done about it. They had 8 players who all think they should play 30 minutes a night. I don't know what conversations he could have to alleviate that. I even get why Ainge didn't trade Rozier. I think it was pretty clear he was saving every asset to throw into an AD deal, and having Rozier sign and trade rights were probably more valuable than any asset they could've gotten for him last summer.
Fair enough, and a cascade of #$% certainly happened to get to this place, but either Danny or Brad has to own a chunk of the mess.

I can’t say I would have done it differently, so I’m not sitting in judgement, but is it possible DA’s asset hoarding did in fact create a roster situation that was so problematic we couldn’t even hold the coach responsible when that mess leaked out onto the floor?

Just feels like they gambled that it would likely get sorted out by one of those 8 guys getting injured to alleviate the minutes crunch, and those guys largely stayed healthy.
Some weird irony for the Celtics that health came back to haunt them.
 

djbayko

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But, do we know he didn't deliver these difficult messages?

Brad doesn't seem like a coach afraid to have tough conversations with his players. He pulled Hayward from the starting rotation. That had to be a tough conversation, no?

What if he had the conversations, and the player still doesn't buy it? Is it on the coach, or the player?

I choose the latter.
Not only that, but it's not difficult for these players to put themselves in Grodon's shoes. They watched a player who was gelling really well with the team over a short stint have a horrific injury. If that had happened to them, they would want every opportunity to get back into playing shape so that they could help contribute to a playoff team.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It won't stop people from assessing blame but even with MacMullan's report, we only have one alleged perspective on what happened last year. And it has a specific bias that may or may not reflect a widely held view in the locker room.

This is what happens when you have large organizational turnover - all sorts of dirty laundry gets aired and it may or may not be an accurate depiction of what transpired.

mcpickl is spot on - we don't know if or how Stevens messaged Hayward's playing time to the team. I don't expect people to stop drawing conclusions about everything around this team (or all the teams we cover on this forum) from small bits of information that may be agenda driven. However we should, at least, acknowledge that anything we are being fed through the media may be in the service of something other than the truth.
One other point worth making: it's not as if Stevens was benching guys who were tearing up the league to play Hayward. Maybe Morris, early on, should have had more time. Rozier sucked all season long. Jaylen started the year in a horrific slump. It's not as if Stevens were force feeding minutes to Yabusele or RJ Hunter. Guys being pissed is understandable, but the gripes would be more reasonable coming from guys who were playing better. Clearly there were issues beyond this.
 

Big John

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The guy who was shortchanged was Ojeleye. He may not have performed better with more minutes, but we never got to find out.
 

chilidawg

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It won't stop people from assessing blame but even with MacMullan's report, we only have one alleged perspective on what happened last year. And it has a specific bias that may or may not reflect a widely held view in the locker room.

This is what happens when you have large organizational turnover - all sorts of dirty laundry gets aired and it may or may not be an accurate depiction of what transpired.

mcpickl is spot on - we don't know if or how Stevens messaged Hayward's playing time to the team. I don't expect people to stop drawing conclusions about everything around this team (or all the teams we cover on this forum) from small bits of information that may be agenda driven. However we should, at least, acknowledge that anything we are being fed through the media may be in the service of something other than the truth.
This is a very reasonable look at things, thanks.
 

JakeRae

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The guy who was shortchanged was Ojeleye. He may not have performed better with more minutes, but we never got to find out.
Ojeleye, if anything, played more than he deserved. He does literally nothing at an NBA level besides defend wings off the dribble. He's a bad shooter, he doesn’t rebound well, he’s not a good passer, he turns the ball over too much, he doesn’t generate steals or blocks. His one plus skill doesn’t come close to overcoming the list of things he does poorly.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The guy who was shortchanged was Ojeleye. He may not have performed better with more minutes, but we never got to find out.
The only reason Ojeleye has played NBA minutes in his career were a couple of specific physically-based matchups against Giannis/LeBron and our frontcourt being decimated with injuries in his rookie year. I haven't seen anything from this player to suggest he's any more of an NBA prospect than Yabusele is.
 

Big John

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The only reason Ojeleye has played NBA minutes in his career were a couple of specific physically-based matchups against Giannis/LeBron and our frontcourt being decimated with injuries in his rookie year. I haven't seen anything from this player to suggest he's any more of an NBA prospect than Yabusele is.
I don't disagree with that assessment based on what we saw of Ojeleye two years ago. Has he improved? Maybe not. But he played such irregular minutes last year that it's impossible to tell.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't disagree with that assessment based on what we saw of Ojeleye two years ago. Has he improved? Maybe not. But he played such irregular minutes last year that it's impossible to tell.
Based on his rookie year... he was worse that year than this, and both of his 2 years show him to be at best a deep bench option. He's an egregiously bad offensive player, he can't shoot, he is a poor rebounder for his position, he's completely useless as a passer.

He's more of a situationally good defender than a versatile one. Semi Ojeleye isn't a guy who has shown anything that would lead a team even a poor one to give him bigger minutes shares, certainly not a playoff team.

Honestly Semi seems like a guy who doesn't get the qualifying offer then has a nice long career bullying people in Europe or China
 

Eddie Jurak

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I thought Semi showed some basic offensive competence this year which he hadn't shown as a rookie. I don't mean that he looked like a competent offensive player - far from it. But as a rookie the Celtics offense with him on the floor was strictly 4-on-5, this year he showed some ability to make the occasional play that wasn't a spot-up three.

But that's beside the point. The Celtics didn't have a collective team meltdown because guys were pissed that Stevens was giving minutes to Gordon that should have gone to Semi and Rozier.
 

mauf

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Hayward’s usage was relatively low (19.0), so when Jackie Mac talks about “force feeding” Hayward, it’s not like they were running the offense through him; it must be the minutes he took from other players.

The three players she mentions by name are Tatum, Brown, and Rozier. If JT was upset with his minutes, that’s absolutely on Brad — if one of his top 3 guys was unhappy with the long rotation, he could’ve easily rectified that without changing the larger strategy. I care much less about what Brown thinks; his effort was wanting much of the time, so it’s rich if he was upset about his minutes (which, to be fair, might not have been the case).

Seeing Rozier’s name anywhere near this story only reinforces my belief that Danny should’ve traded him for a bag of balls back in December. There’s no need to have a true PG on the court at all times in today’s NBA. Indeed, GH would’ve been the logical guy to bring the ball up the floor in Terry’s absence (assuming Smart was in the starting five), so the move would’ve freed up minutes for the people who were apparently miffed.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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Another take on what happened from SI’s Chris Mannix:

Chris Mannix: “You can write a whole book on what went wrong because the season was basically a disaster from start to finish. [Kyrie’s] relationship with the young players on the roster was awful. Jaylen Brown he was probably the worst with, I don’t think it was great with Jayson Tatum, and it was awful with Terry Rozier because Terry was supplanted at a position he thought he did enough to win. That created a pretty nasty atmosphere. Kyrie’s leadership skills were lacking and he failed at it. He was the first player to be coached by Brad Stevens who didn’t really enjoy being coached by Brad Stevens and that relationship wasn’t solid.”
Audio here: https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2019-06-18-chris-mannix-kyrie-irving-had-no-relationship-with-celtics-young-players/

He also noted that Brad Stevens wants to use the regular season to build towards the playoffs and Kyrie, from his time with LeBron, wanted the regular season to end as quickly as possible to get to the playoffs. Also speculated that Brooklyn will be a situation similar to Boston - a bunch of young players, a coach who wants to use the regular season as a building opportunity, etc.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Hayward’s usage was relatively low (19.0), so when Jackie Mac talks about “force feeding” Hayward, it’s not like they were running the offense through him; it must be the minutes he took from other players.

The three players she mentions by name are Tatum, Brown, and Rozier. If JT was upset with his minutes, that’s absolutely on Brad — if one of his top 3 guys was unhappy with the long rotation, he could’ve easily rectified that without changing the larger strategy. I care much less about what Brown thinks; his effort was wanting much of the time, so it’s rich if he was upset about his minutes (which, to be fair, might not have been the case).

Seeing Rozier’s name anywhere near this story only reinforces my belief that Danny should’ve traded him for a bag of balls back in December. There’s no need to have a true PG on the court at all times in today’s NBA. Indeed, GH would’ve been the logical guy to bring the ball up the floor in Terry’s absence (assuming Smart was in the starting five), so the move would’ve freed up minutes for the people who were apparently miffed.
Agree with all of the above. Brown was in an awful funk at the start of the year so his case would be "I'm the one who should be getting underserved minutes, not Gordon". And JT did not exactly set the world on fire in the early part of last year. On the plus side, Brown in particular turned his season arouns at some point.

I can kind of understand where the Celtics were coming from on keeping Rozier: Kyrie was something of an injury question mark, and Rozier had just shown that he could start in the playoffs. If Kyrie had setbacks and missed a lot of games, they would have wanted Rozier. But they failed to consider how a dissatisfied Rozier was going to negatively impact the team.

I wonder how much of all of this would have been solved by trading Rozier, making Smart the primary backup to Kyrie (and starter when he is out), and re-signing Larkin as a depth/matchup guy.
 

lovegtm

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Another take on what happened from SI’s Chris Mannix:


Audio here: https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2019-06-18-chris-mannix-kyrie-irving-had-no-relationship-with-celtics-young-players/

He also noted that Brad Stevens wants to use the regular season to build towards the playoffs and Kyrie, from his time with LeBron, wanted the regular season to end as quickly as possible to get to the playoffs. Also speculated that Brooklyn will be a situation similar to Boston - a bunch of young players, a coach who wants to use the regular season as a building opportunity, etc.
This story rings a lot more true to what we saw on the outside. JB not getting along well with Kyrie (and maybe Morris too) was obvious to even a casual observer.

This is another reason I don’t want to sell low on him—last year was a perfect storm of an early season slump (and a hand injury?), trade rumors, not enough ball to go around, and a toxic relationship with the team’s star.
 

lexrageorge

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...

He also noted that Brad Stevens wants to use the regular season to build towards the playoffs and Kyrie, from his time with LeBron, wanted the regular season to end as quickly as possible to get to the playoffs. Also speculated that Brooklyn will be a situation similar to Boston - a bunch of young players, a coach who wants to use the regular season as a building opportunity, etc.
Kyrie is not LeBron, no matter how much he thinks he is. The bolded, if correct, is 100% on Kyrie, and not on Brad at all.
 

benhogan

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Agree with all of the above. Brown was in an awful funk at the start of the year so his case would be "I'm the one who should be getting underserved minutes, not Gordon". And JT did not exactly set the world on fire in the early part of last year. On the plus side, Brown in particular turned his season arouns at some point.

I can kind of understand where the Celtics were coming from on keeping Rozier: Kyrie was something of an injury question mark, and Rozier had just shown that he could start in the playoffs. If Kyrie had setbacks and missed a lot of games, they would have wanted Rozier. But they failed to consider how a dissatisfied Rozier was going to negatively impact the team.

I wonder how much of all of this would have been solved by trading Rozier, making Smart the primary backup to Kyrie (and starter when he is out), and re-signing Larkin as a depth/matchup guy.
This post is pretty spot on, especially the last comment about Terry.

I agree Rozier didn't like being the 8th guy off the bench or being on the floor with Kyrie (he stated as much in the post season Greenberg/ESPN interview) and his adv ratings showed it. He flat out sucked in his role. Terry wanted to start and he played better when he did, that was obvious. To start the season I believed Terry as Kyrie insurance was valuable and should be kept, in hindsight, it didn't work out. Brad Wanamaker as a 3rd string PG would have been adequate (esp with Horford and Hayward capable of initiating the offense as point forwards). I guess Danny should have gambled on Kyrie's health and just moved Rozier if he was going to sulk? But I certainly understand Danny's position here.

I also believe Brown had trouble adjusting to being the 5th option on offense to start the season, he seemed hesitant and confused the first 8 weeks. Making JB a main offensive option with the 2nd unit helped him get more involved early in games and build a shooting rhythm, so Brad deserves some credit for that adjustment. Brown's usage and minutes by the end of the season, could have seen a larger bump, which may have led to some murmurs/rumblings in the aftermath of the season.

My issue with Hayward was his initial usage and forcing Gordon into the starting lineup day 1. He should have been brought along much more slowly after that catastrophic injury. It's a very long season, his minutes/role could have developed organically. It appears like it also alienated some teammates, which didn't help with the chemistry/locker room.

BUT this was all driven by the biggest issue, Brad lacked balance with his lineups/rotations. This whole notion of playing 5 offensive alphas at once (playing "small ball"), spreading 5 out on the perimeter is silly. Show me, one team, where this has ever worked? You need at least 1 or 2 lunch pail players on the floor/in rotations doing the dirty work. When Brad went "small" none of those guys wanted to set screens, which led to little cutting, not many picks, and terrible ball movement. The Celtics offense was pretty much 5 potted plants on the perimeter and it was easy to defend. Brad preached "defense and ball movement" in every PG presser, yet his game lineups/rotations did not efficiently produce that. They rarely got big defensive stops at the end of tight games from his small ball rotations. It wasn't a question of talent on the roster, it was in game execution by the coach/players with ill-conceived rotations and undefined roles.

Brad's small-ball style was a horrible approach, was proven as much, hastily corrected by the last week of the regular season. Brad admitted error at the end of the season press conference which leads me to believe/hope Brad/Danny have learned from this blunder of a season and will be better from it as they rebuild the next great Celtic team.
 
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In my lifetime

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I just see this season's disappointment as being primarily in KI's lap. He was their best player, but has 0 emotional intelligence and thus has no clue how to lead. Despite many of their quotes for public consumption, Tatum and Brown must have been rolling their eyes at half of KI's interviews. KI is not quite elite enough to be a number 1 from a talent perspective, but more damning is that he has no clue how to lead.
 

djbayko

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Kyrie is not LeBron, no matter how much he thinks he is. The bolded, if correct, is 100% on Kyrie, and not on Brad at all.
He's not Lebron, and he's not one the same kind of team, surrounded by vets. The kids + a recovering Hayward obviously needed the regular season. It's clear Kyrie is just an a-hole at this point.