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Much like the Vikings game mentioned above, I'm reminded of week 1 of the 2002 season. Defending champs, opening their brand new stadium on national TV against the (I think) favored Steelers, and Belichick and Weis have Tom Brady come out slinging the ball all over the field, running a hurry-up offense I'd never seen the Pats run, and completely destroying the vaunted Steelers defense.
Also, his decision to throw the red challenge flag (back when it wasn't automatic on scoring plays) when Ben Watson saved a touchdown on a 99 yard INT return against the Broncos that was not overturned for some reason. That play still pisses me off.
Also, his decision to throw the red challenge flag (back when it wasn't automatic on scoring plays) when Ben Watson saved a touchdown on a 99 yard INT return against the Broncos that was not overturned for some reason. That play still pisses me off.
Dollar said:
It was the Steelers, and the statline doesn't do that game justice in terms of how shocking it was to see them come out and run that offense. That was as much fun as I've had watching a regular season Patriots game. I thought Brady's upside was solid game manager, and that game changed my perception tremendously.
And the Jake Plummer Broncos game pisses me off to this day. Bullshit PI call gives them 7, bullshit non-reversal gives them 7, Faulk fumble...ugh.
Has anyone mentioned the 2001/2 Super Bowl? I think a lot of coaches would've agreed with John Madden and rode it into overtime. That was pretty ballsy to let Brady throw the ball all over the field.
The 2004 season opener against Indy. The build-up, coming off 2003, was about one thing: "Now they have Corey Dillon!" Tons of speculation about their improved running game. So what do they do in the first drive? No-huddle, shotgun, spread offense, Dillon standing on the sideline watching. Drive resulted in a field goal, and they won by that margin.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070715203931/http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20040909_IND@NE
He wins because he never does what you expect he'll do.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070715203931/http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20040909_IND@NE
He wins because he never does what you expect he'll do.
The 2004 game at St. Louis stands out. The Pats were banged up and coming off the blowout loss at Pittsburgh and people forget the Rams were still pretty good. IIRC a lot of people picked St. Louis, and Law and Poole were already out, and one of the starting CBs went down on the opening drive (Samuel? Gay?). And I believe that led to the very first appearance of Troy Brown at CB. This was also the AV TD pass game. Obviously they had won two titles at this point and we knew BB was good but that took BB as special to another level for me.
The 2002 season was a rare bust for Belichick, but had a number of great moments. The Bears game with Brady driving the team back down by 3 TDs in the third quarter with an unbelievable catch by David Patten in the back of the end zone to win it was among the best.
How incredible of a find was David Patten? The game where he throws, runs and catches a TD. The catch in the AFC Championship Game from Bledsoe in the back of the end zone. The same exact route and catch in the Super Bowl. Even when he was knocked unconscious on the field in Buffalo the guy was helping the team win games. All time Patriots baller for what he did.
How incredible of a find was David Patten? The game where he throws, runs and catches a TD. The catch in the AFC Championship Game from Bledsoe in the back of the end zone. The same exact route and catch in the Super Bowl. Even when he was knocked unconscious on the field in Buffalo the guy was helping the team win games. All time Patriots baller for what he did.
That Bears game was insane. Wasn't Brady picked off by a DL on the last drive but he fumbled it back to the Pats?
tims4wins said:
People forget that it worked the first few times they did it and won them a game--it was a big part of the "genius" label catching on and people even found the economics paper that explained the mathematics behind it.
But then it didn't work that one time in a big game and the narrative was reworked into "arrogance!!" with no historical memory that it had worked before--and that people had come to realize it was the right decision.
FL4WL3SS said:
Remember the saying that "starters don't lose their position due to injury"? There's a whole generation of football fans who have never even heard that line.
Van Everyman said:
Link
I seem to remember Brady diving towards a gigantic Bears defensive lineman who was bobbling the ball, and then Brady swatted it away to make it an incomplete pass when everyone else was just standing around. I think it was originally ruled an interception, and Belichick challenged it. One of the best games I've ever seen, a 21 point comeback capped off by the incredible Patten catch (which I have not been able to find video of since).tims4wins said:
Fully embracing the inherent advantage receivers have in poor field conditions - such as the 01 Raider playoff or in 09 when they annihilated the Titans. He literally neutralizes Mother Nature's biggest weapons, too.
Belichick is such a sports deity in Boston that nothing from the 16-0 2007 season has even appeared in this thread yet. Forget about the crash and burn in Glendale, that season produced multiple Belichick shining moments.
* The first game after spygate happened where they utterly annihilated the Chargers on a Sunday night. The team came out like rabid dogs, and jumped out to a 24-0 lead. The sharks were circling Belichick before this game, and he got the team ready to play amidst a lot of bullshit.
* The game against Washington where they went up 52-0 in the 4th quarter, unofficially starting "fuck you" mode touchdowns in the 4th quarter. Launched the first "they're running up scores" pansy arguments from talking heads/losers.
* The next week in Indianapolis when both the Pats and Colts were 8-0. First time two 8-0 teams faced each other. This was the first time I thought the Pats actually had a chance at going 16-0. I couldn't believe they actually won that game in Indy, given the last few years of difficulty against Indy (of course having apex Moss and Welker helped...). I just felt privileged to root on a team that was even involved in these types of games.
* The last week of the season vs the Giants and managing to keep the team focused enough to beat them in NY. A super job of keeping distractions out and getting the team to focus on the task at hand.
Damn, that 2007 season was the balls. Fucking Giants.
* The first game after spygate happened where they utterly annihilated the Chargers on a Sunday night. The team came out like rabid dogs, and jumped out to a 24-0 lead. The sharks were circling Belichick before this game, and he got the team ready to play amidst a lot of bullshit.
* The game against Washington where they went up 52-0 in the 4th quarter, unofficially starting "fuck you" mode touchdowns in the 4th quarter. Launched the first "they're running up scores" pansy arguments from talking heads/losers.
* The next week in Indianapolis when both the Pats and Colts were 8-0. First time two 8-0 teams faced each other. This was the first time I thought the Pats actually had a chance at going 16-0. I couldn't believe they actually won that game in Indy, given the last few years of difficulty against Indy (of course having apex Moss and Welker helped...). I just felt privileged to root on a team that was even involved in these types of games.
* The last week of the season vs the Giants and managing to keep the team focused enough to beat them in NY. A super job of keeping distractions out and getting the team to focus on the task at hand.
Damn, that 2007 season was the balls. Fucking Giants.
Not entirely apropos to the thread, but seemed as good a place as any:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/bill-belichick-the-nfls-scary-alex-trebek-1421173085
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304419104579322564133750866
http://www.wsj.com/articles/bill-belichick-the-nfls-scary-alex-trebek-1421173085
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304419104579322564133750866
Was at that game. It was exhilarating and terrifying all at the same time. Colts fans are the WORST.GBrushTWood said:
Great idea for a thread!
As more examples of his “related to the game brilliance”, I would add his preference for guys with versatility, and how he’s taken advantage of these type players. For example, Ryan Wendell’s center/guard versatility has been a real asset for this year’s team
The way he gotten the most out of lower draft choices and free agents; most memorably, on the OL, contributing to the 3 super bowls and beyond. I know Scarnecchia was plenty responsible but BB, as head coach, gets some credit. Getting the most out of guys like Andruzzi, Randall, Hochstein, Koppen, Ashworth, Williams, etc., and sometimes doing it with and smoke and mirror blocking schemes to make up for a lack of raw talent. In fact, the now valuable above mentioned Ryan Wendell was also an UDFA.
Deactivating Terry Glenn in 2001 on the way to a SB. When it happened, I remember thinking crap, there goes any chance for the playoffs this year! And the Pats then not giving Glenn a championship ring with teammates but instead mailing it to him must have had something to do with BB
As more examples of his “related to the game brilliance”, I would add his preference for guys with versatility, and how he’s taken advantage of these type players. For example, Ryan Wendell’s center/guard versatility has been a real asset for this year’s team
The way he gotten the most out of lower draft choices and free agents; most memorably, on the OL, contributing to the 3 super bowls and beyond. I know Scarnecchia was plenty responsible but BB, as head coach, gets some credit. Getting the most out of guys like Andruzzi, Randall, Hochstein, Koppen, Ashworth, Williams, etc., and sometimes doing it with and smoke and mirror blocking schemes to make up for a lack of raw talent. In fact, the now valuable above mentioned Ryan Wendell was also an UDFA.
Deactivating Terry Glenn in 2001 on the way to a SB. When it happened, I remember thinking crap, there goes any chance for the playoffs this year! And the Pats then not giving Glenn a championship ring with teammates but instead mailing it to him must have had something to do with BB
From the Washington game recap:GBrushTWood said:
Then, with a fourth-and-1 at the Redskins 7, the Patriots went for it rather than try for a field goal and Brady ran 2 yards. Two plays later, he threw his third touchdown pass of the game, a 2-yarder to Wes Welker with 9:06 left that drew the ire of Redskins linebacker Randall Godfrey.
"I said something to [Belichick] after the game," Godfrey told NBCSports.com. "I told him, 'You need to show some respect for the game.' You just don't do that. I don't care how bad it is. You're up 35 points and you're still throwing deep? That's no respect."
Wasn't BB's response (later) something to the effect of 'it's harder to convert the 4th down and score a TD than it would be to kick the field goal, so really kicking it would have been running up the score.' Alone with 'If you don't want us to score, stop us'.weeba said:
If, these days, Adam Viniateri threw a TD pass in that manner (say, this weekend) it would be lauded as genius.drleather2001 said:
If Ghost were to do it this weekend, it would result in a bile-saturated fecal fest about BB's areogance and disrespect.
Taking the wind in OT versus Denver last year in the crazy comeback game.
Drafting Matt Cassel in the 7th round, who barely threw a pass in anger in 4 years at USC, and developing him into a serviceable NFL starter.
Signing Stephen Neal, who never played in college and somehow became a steady contributor and played in 4 Super Bowls.
Dumping Randy Moss, arguably the most dangerous wide receiver ever, in the middle of the 2010 season and reorienting the entire offense around two rookie TEs on the fly on the way to a 14-2 season. (I have a soft spot for that 2010 team, was more bummed when they lost than in SB46 for some reason.)
Drafting Matt Cassel in the 7th round, who barely threw a pass in anger in 4 years at USC, and developing him into a serviceable NFL starter.
Signing Stephen Neal, who never played in college and somehow became a steady contributor and played in 4 Super Bowls.
Dumping Randy Moss, arguably the most dangerous wide receiver ever, in the middle of the 2010 season and reorienting the entire offense around two rookie TEs on the fly on the way to a 14-2 season. (I have a soft spot for that 2010 team, was more bummed when they lost than in SB46 for some reason.)
Hoya81 said:
I don't know about being more disappointed, but I loved the hell out of that team. During the regular season that 2010 team beat all four teams in the AFC and NFC Championships that season (although to be fair Flynn started for the Packers). In their last 5 regular season games (beginning with the MNF Jets game) they allowed 47 points (9.4/game) while scoring 183 (36.6/game).
Ugh.
I always was aware Belichick was good with the Giants but in 1999 when Testaverde went down to open the season against the pats the jets lost that game and started the season 1-6. From that low point they finished 7-2 in what I thought was the most well coached team I have seen. They were running Ray Lucas out there. That dude makes Matt Cassell look like Johnny Unitas. The defense under Belichick just played so smart. I might see if I can dig up some of those games.
luckiestman said:
Agreed! that was one of the first times I watched a team (slantwise, admittedly...) and wasn't sure how they were doing it, since they had seemed to lack so much talent...turned out it was coaching, and specifically "boring" kind of coaching...yet that made all the difference.
Six finished off the Rockies later that day. What a time to be a Boston fan. Really, what a run since 2001 with the Pats being at the center of it.GBrushTWood said:
Speaking of the 2007 season, the acquisitions of Wes Welker and Randy Moss before that campaign for draft picks (2nd and 7th for Welker; 4th for Moss) has to go on the list. Welker had been successful against the Pats but wasn't exactly a household name, and Moss was Moss. The 2006 Pats receiving core was lacking and then, virtually overnight, it was loaded.
When it comes to BB's decision to stick with Brady over Bledsoe it's important to remember that was not the first time he replaced a popular incumbent QB.
In Cleveland he benched Bernie Kosar for Vinny Testaverde. Obviously the results weren't similar, but Kosar was wildly popular -- Ohio kid, college star, etc. That move was gutsy, especially since there wasn't consensus yet that Kosar was on the downside of his career (sound familiar?). And then he outright released Kosar after he had been insubordinate during a game he started while replacing an injured Vinny.
Balls of steel.
In Cleveland he benched Bernie Kosar for Vinny Testaverde. Obviously the results weren't similar, but Kosar was wildly popular -- Ohio kid, college star, etc. That move was gutsy, especially since there wasn't consensus yet that Kosar was on the downside of his career (sound familiar?). And then he outright released Kosar after he had been insubordinate during a game he started while replacing an injured Vinny.
Balls of steel.
BB has a long history of seeing things in players that others don't. I'm not sure if it is the GM side in acquiring said players or the coach who coaches it up, but think about how many players BB has acquired where conventional wisdom -- be it media or fans -- question the acquisition as either outright dumb or a "reach" (in the case of drafting). Think about the reactions upon the acquisitions of this list at the time they were acquired:
High-Profile Category
Richard Seymour
Matt Light
Mike Vrabel
Corey Dillon
Randy Moss (remember what his prior time in Oakland had looked like, coupled with his off-field rep)
Logan Mankins
Sebastian Vollmer
Devin McCourty
Low-Profile Acquisitions who became Big Impact guys:
Matt Cassel
Julian Edelman
David Givens
Stephan Neal
Randall Gay
Ryan Wendell
and many more
High-Profile Category
Richard Seymour
Matt Light
Mike Vrabel
Corey Dillon
Randy Moss (remember what his prior time in Oakland had looked like, coupled with his off-field rep)
Logan Mankins
Sebastian Vollmer
Devin McCourty
Low-Profile Acquisitions who became Big Impact guys:
Matt Cassel
Julian Edelman
David Givens
Stephan Neal
Randall Gay
Ryan Wendell
and many more
It wasnt the wins or comebacks or going for it on fourth: the drop kick was the first thing I thought of because it worked on several levels.Van Everyman said:
The Pats lost the last game of the 2005 season to Miami, thereby enabling them to play Jacksonville in the first round of the playoffs rather than the then scarier Pittsburgh Steelers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/05/sports/football/05patriots.html?_r=0
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200601010nwe.htm
At the end of the game, back-up QB Matt Cassell badly missed his intended receiver, Bam Childress, on a two point conversion try that would have tied the game. I might have been able to get the ball closer to Childress on that particular throw.
The Pats went on to destroy the Jags in that opening round game (with some last high fives and smiles between BB and Eric Mangini along the way), making the apparent decision look like the right one.
PS: Edited to correct the reference to the 2005 season. Brain fart because the game was played in 2006....Thanks for the quick corrections.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/05/sports/football/05patriots.html?_r=0
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200601010nwe.htm
At the end of the game, back-up QB Matt Cassell badly missed his intended receiver, Bam Childress, on a two point conversion try that would have tied the game. I might have been able to get the ball closer to Childress on that particular throw.
The Pats went on to destroy the Jags in that opening round game (with some last high fives and smiles between BB and Eric Mangini along the way), making the apparent decision look like the right one.
PS: Edited to correct the reference to the 2005 season. Brain fart because the game was played in 2006....Thanks for the quick corrections.
Saints Rest said:
Hard to give Belichick too much credit for this, because I imagine that other successful franchises have a similar track record. You could make a recent case for someone like Pete Carroll in seeing something in guys like Chancellor, Sherman, Browner, Bennett, etc.
My favorite Belichick maneuver is the intentional safety, for what it's worth. I was baffled by that one at the time.
Good call on the personnel side - Kyle Arrington, Nate Ebner, Matt Slater all further examples. Guys like Bolden and Lawfirm.
BTW, Arrington played a really strong game on Saturday
Edit: and a spinoff on bringing in guys who we think have no chance - building them up then letting them walk at the right time. Thinking Lawfirm here, Blount probably falls into that category too, not paying David Givens in FA, not paying Deion Branch like a WR1, etc. He rarely misses in terms of letting guys walk at the right time. Woodhead was one of the few I can think of but even that was understandable given the presence of Vereen on the roster.
Also, trading Bledsoe to a DIVISION RIVAL. That kind of thing does not happen unless you are 100% confident that you will beat him.
BTW, Arrington played a really strong game on Saturday
Edit: and a spinoff on bringing in guys who we think have no chance - building them up then letting them walk at the right time. Thinking Lawfirm here, Blount probably falls into that category too, not paying David Givens in FA, not paying Deion Branch like a WR1, etc. He rarely misses in terms of letting guys walk at the right time. Woodhead was one of the few I can think of but even that was understandable given the presence of Vereen on the roster.
Also, trading Bledsoe to a DIVISION RIVAL. That kind of thing does not happen unless you are 100% confident that you will beat him.
tims4wins said:
Devil's advocate: either, of both of, those decisions could very well have cost them a SB in 2006-07.
I'm not saying they were the wrong decision. However, rather than thinking of Belichick as a mastermind who makes bold decisions, I think his strength is that he has a team-building philosophy and he sticks to it. Instead of hitting it big on high-risk, high-cost, roster determinations, he makes improvements on the margins that, over time, keep the team competitive. He's like an investor that rides out the highs and lows and just keeps investing, confident over time that by sticking to his plan, things will work out. He doesn't panic.
It's a lot less sexy than thinking he's some mad genius, but in its own way it takes a lot of courage.
It is correct that many fans were frustrated when Branch was traded after an extended holdout and without an obvious replacement. As you said, it may have cost the team a Lombardi.drleather2001 said:
However, at the time the decision was made, it was not possible for Belichick to know that the team would come 1 first down short from making a Super Bowl. A lot of things can happen during a season. And we've seen too many situations where a team "loads up" for a Super Bowl run and ends up falling way short (someone should ask Felger how well the "cap is crap" philosophy is working for Denver right now).
The bolded is Belichick's greatest strength as GM, IMO. The discipline to stick with a philosophy is something that many GM's lack; to be fair, it's also something that many GM's do not have the luxury of being able to enjoy. Too many owners expect Super Bowl titles in 2-3 years; so Kraft deserves some credit here as well.
drleather2001 said:
I don't disagree, but the Pats were a 3rd down conversion from making (and likely winning) the Super Bowl without either guy. If Brady and Troy Brown are on the same page on a play they probably convert 6 or 7 times out of 10, we don't even remember that it might have been a bad move to let both walk.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
On the personnel side, let's add some decisions to let people walk (not even trading them) that turned out to be prescient:
- Asante Samuel
- Damien Woody
- Aqib Talib
Probably dozens of others.
- Asante Samuel
- Damien Woody
- Aqib Talib
Probably dozens of others.
Haynesworth? Since this is just the nomination thread. Take a small financial risk, with a big performance upside. If it doesn't work out, cut bait. Kind of the same thinking as with Moss, right? Some work, some don't. Those that don't work, don't become an albatross.
Just occurred to me
Had he snapped the ball to his punter (with instructions to run out of bounds another 1 or 2 (or more) seconds would have ran off. Plus there was the possibility of a fumble and Broncos TD if they recovered.
Not that I am that bright....but had I the forthought to say "Lets give them the safety, get the ball back and score" I would have the snapped to the Punter who would then have immediately fumbled and made us look even more foolish and ensuring the loss.
What did the clock do in this situation? I assume it stared for only a second then stopped. So not only did he get out from under the shadow of his own goal posts.....he also used as little time as possible doing so. Important when you need to stop the Broncos....then get the ball back and march down the field for the winning FG.
Had he snapped the ball to his punter (with instructions to run out of bounds another 1 or 2 (or more) seconds would have ran off. Plus there was the possibility of a fumble and Broncos TD if they recovered.
Not that I am that bright....but had I the forthought to say "Lets give them the safety, get the ball back and score" I would have the snapped to the Punter who would then have immediately fumbled and made us look even more foolish and ensuring the loss.
M
MentalDisabldLst
Guest
Yeah, it's possible that the three craziest on-field decisions Belichick has ever made were the intentional safety, the 4th-and-2 play, and taking the wind in OT*. All of them were the right decision ex-ante, and two of the three somehow worked out**. If you're in a situation desperate enough to require something like that, you really don't expect to win two out of three games, even if you think OT vs Denver was a 50-50 proposition.
I don't consider the final drive in SB 36 to be that crazy a decision, because even if most coaches wouldn't have done it at the time, it had basically no downside risk - near-zero odds that it would make him look foolish. Frankly, it's still weird to me that when teams get the ball with, like, 40 seconds left to end the 1st half, they don't try to run a few quick outs and then bomb a hail-mary or two. Seems to me like there's basically no downside - "oh no, they intercepted it for a touchback with 10 seconds to go!" - but to just kneel is to give up any chance of those free points.
* My favorite part of the play is that Logan Mankins literally couldn't believe his ears when that request was communicated to him, and after they won the toss, he asked for confirmation several times before finally telling the ref the chosen option.
** Let's not rehash again whether Faulk made the line to gain.
I don't consider the final drive in SB 36 to be that crazy a decision, because even if most coaches wouldn't have done it at the time, it had basically no downside risk - near-zero odds that it would make him look foolish. Frankly, it's still weird to me that when teams get the ball with, like, 40 seconds left to end the 1st half, they don't try to run a few quick outs and then bomb a hail-mary or two. Seems to me like there's basically no downside - "oh no, they intercepted it for a touchback with 10 seconds to go!" - but to just kneel is to give up any chance of those free points.
* My favorite part of the play is that Logan Mankins literally couldn't believe his ears when that request was communicated to him, and after they won the toss, he asked for confirmation several times before finally telling the ref the chosen option.
** Let's not rehash again whether Faulk made the line to gain.
drleather2001 said:
I believe the plan was to keep Branch on the team, with the holdout ultimately resolved like Mankins' was. The mistake was letting Branch and his agent talk to every other team thereby allowing the Jets with their almost insane Pats fixation to jump in and mess things up.
Filed under "great idea that didn't work out", Belichick has also been willing to let the other team score in an effort to get the ball back on Brady's hands--and willing to do it at the highest stage in 2012.
If he did it was super-dumb, because if they stop Indy on 3rd-and-2 (when they scored the TD) the Colts kick the FG and the game is just tied instead of the Pats losing.rodderick said:
bakahump said:
The Patriots safety came at 2:51. Pats got ball back at 2:15.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200311030den.htm
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