The "Belichick as GM" debate

[Erik Hanson's Hook]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

 

[riboflav]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

 
Hmmm...

 

[soxfan121]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

 
Well that's a strong opinion but what is your supporting evidence? A made-up quote, a punt returner getting preseason reps returning punts and some trite digs at arrogance are not supporting evidence. 
 
There may be a case to be made that BB has "lost his fastball". The team record/achievements don't support that but maybe you've got some insight to share. If you were to make the effort to research, source and write something that supports the idea that BB is "fucking up", people would read it, think about it and discuss it. 
 
That said, word vomit and hotsportztakes without any thought or evidence behind them tend not to go over too well on this site. 

 

[Dogman]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

 
 
Can you expand on this? I'm trying to piece together your angle but am coming up empty based on your post. 
 
How has BB lost it as GM?
 
Why is BB the smartest in the room for having JE get reps in the preseason returning punts when that is exactly what JE will be doing on Sunday. 
 
Do  you think anyone on this site thinks BB is perfect?

 

[riboflav]

EHH had me in a panic as I began searching furiously for news that Edelman had somehow hurt himself returning a recent punt and it was either just being reported now or I had missed it. Glad to know it was just a weird (potentially hypothetical) example to make a point. I'm sure there are much more appropriate examples to argue that BB is not a good GM. Strange choice.

 

[Toe Nash]

Weird post, but it gives me a chance to point out the under-appreciated fact that Edelman has the highest PR avg since the merger. Edelman: 12.3458 in 107 returns, Hester: 12.2765 on 264 returns.

 

[rodderick]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

 
Two things here. One: the guy is a great punt returner, he absolutely has to return punts in preseason to get ready for regular season, seeing as no one really goes balls out and finishes on special teams plays in training camp. He needs those live reps. Two: how the fuck is letting Edelman return punts a strike against Belichick the GM? That's a coaching decision.
 
I think Belichick the GM is good, though not as great as Belichick the coach, and has made his fair share of mistakes over the years. Actually, I don't think anyone here would dispute that notion, so I'm not sure why you seem to be under the impression that people are afraid of criticizing Belichick.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I think the league as a whole is a lot smarter now than in 2001. I don't think there's even a tiny shred of evidence that BB has lost his fastball, but I do think that in today's league he doesn't have as much of an advantage as before.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?

 
Well, kinda. The guy put up a 151-57 record over 13 regular seasons & 17-7 in the PO. 
 
I say in NFL terms that's as "ever and ever and ever" as you get. What do you think though? I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Stitch01]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

This post is bad, and you should feel bad.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Love BB the coach. Getting pretty sick and tired of BB the GM.
 
"What's that, Julian? You want to return kicks during preseason games? SURE. Because...you know...I'm the smartest guy in the room. And feel the need to prove it at every juncture."
 
In Bill we trust, though, right? For ever and ever and ever. Right?
 
He's lost his GM fastball. I'm sorry, but he has. Dude is 62 years old. Is it blasphemy to think he could be fucking up here and there? Because I think he is.

I can't name one GM who has proven to be better than BB, can you?

 

[dcmissle]

I think the league as a whole is a lot smarter now than in 2001. I don't think there's even a tiny shred of evidence that BB has lost his fastball, but I do think that in today's league he doesn't have as much of an advantage as before.

Others have upped their games. Pittsburgh does not part with Vrabel today. Teams don't accept a poison pill first rounder and trade their futures today, or at least not to the same extent as before.

I am also having trouble with the post that triggered this because it does not connect dots. Also, if anything, I think recent FA and draft moves represent an improvement over Pats' performance in the mid-to-late 2000s. So I'm left scratching my head.

 

[E5 Yaz]

It always amazes me just how many people will want to respond to a lurker post of questionable quality.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

It always amazes me just how many people will want to respond to a lurker post of questionable quality.

Two thoughts. I kind of enjoyed the cavalry rushing out in response.

Also, this place has gotten a lot kinder and gentler. Imagine Yam's response?

 

[soxfan121]

Two thoughts. I kind of enjoyed the cavalry rushing out in response.

Also, this place has gotten a lot kinder and gentler. Imagine Yam's response?

 
Anytime Dogman and I both go Dr. Phil on someone, that person has done fucked up. 

 

[Dogman]

See what this lurker made me do? :rex:

 

[Dogman]

More seriously, I don't care how crazy or silly I think a position is as long as it is presented logically so that discussion can be had. 
 
Throwing around unsupportable, blanket statements and indicting the board for wholly kissing BB's feet isn't exactly the way things have gone around here for the last 4 or so years.  Sure, we still have Tony C around, but we have evolved. 
:stare:
 
I've now used emoticons in two consecutive posts.   :smithicide:

 

[j-man]

I can't name one GM who has proven to be better than BB, can you?

 

I can't name one GM who has proven to be better than BB, can you?

i can Ozzie Newsome   John Schneider Ted thompson  and john elway   

 

[RIrooter09]

 
i can Ozzie Newsome   John Schneider Ted thompson  and john elway   

 
Please show your work.  Ozzie, Schneider, Thompson, Elway- 4 combined SB appearances, 3 rings.
 
BB- 5 SB appearances, 3 rings.

 

[kenneycb]

 
i can Ozzie Newsome   John Schneider Ted thompson  and john elway   

Schneider has been above .500 twice, albeit has a SB.  Still only four years on the job so I'm hesitant to call him proven.
Thompson has been solid but outside of the SB, the Packers have never advanced past the divisional rounds since he took over
Elway's been on the job for three years so, again, hesitant to call him proven.
Newsome has a SB victory on his resume but a lot of down years and downright mediocrity mixed in there.
 
Belichick also has one less SB appearance than those guys have combined conference championship appearances.

 

[lars10]

It always amazes me just how many people will want to respond to a lurker post of questionable quality.

My thought was...I wonder how many times BB actually is the smartest man in the room?

What I like about BB is his use of the draft... Always stockpiling picks unlike pretty much anyone...even though if doesn't always work. How can one not also appreciate how he thinks about the game and presents things people have never thought about or heard about... Even if it doesn't always work.

'in bill we trust' is now the Felgerian meme of those that dislike him. 'I mean he hasn't won a Super Bowl in soooooo long!!!!' The guy tries different things and he makes the game more interesting by doing what he does...no?

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

 
i can Ozzie Newsome   John Schneider Ted thompson  and john elway   

i like your work, jm but this is highly debateable.

 

[( . ) ( . ) and (_!_)]

My thought was...I wonder how many times BB actually is the smartest man in the room?

What I like about BB is his use of the draft... Always stockpiling picks unlike pretty much anyone...even though if doesn't always work. How can one not also appreciate how he thinks about the game and presents things people have never thought about or heard about... Even if it doesn't always work.

'in bill we trust' is now the Felgerian meme of those that dislike him. 'I mean he hasn't won a Super Bowl in soooooo long!!!!' The guy tries different things and he makes the game more interesting by doing what he does...no?

 
What you seem to fail to understand is that to be a "great" GM every 3rd, 4th and 5th round pick in the draft must be an instant day one starter.  Also first and second rounders should have a 100% Hall of Fame hit rate.  Finally backup QBs should be dealt for All Pro WRs every other year. 
 
If Bill was at that baseline then we could celebrate him for being a great GM. But he isn't, so he is garbage. 

 

[soxfan121]

Any insights into the lightning rounds of musical chairs? I assume they come in at least partially known, and I'm hard pressed to figure how a practice or two would lead to shifts at this late date to warrant them gone. I'm referring mostly to the 53-man here not the PS. What gives?

 
Shadow Roster. With an expanded practice squad comes an expanded shadow roster. By my count, there's 22 or 23 guys floating around those ten spots. 
 

 
i can Ozzie Newsome   John Schneider Ted thompson  and john elway   

 
1. As others have pointed out, this is highly debatable. IMO, only Ozzie has the extended track record and success. You could add Jerry Reese (NY Giants) and Kevin Colbert (Pittsburgh) to that top tier. Schneider and Trent Baalke, along with Thompson and a few others makes up the next group down. 
 
John Elway is ostensibly the GM of the Broncos but it is a title he has held less than one year and predecessor Brian Xanders built much of the current Broncos roster before he departed in 2013. There is no way Elway belongs near this discussion. 
 
2. Throwing out answers is fine but ideally there's more meat on this bone so others don't have to do the research. Issuing a list is helpful for only people who want to save time and typing. But a thread full of lists really and truly sucks. It is the reasons behind the list that we're here for, ya know?
 
Anyway, we all understand you're not a great typist but a bit more context would really be helpful next time. And no John Elway. Fuck that horse toothed Super Bowl loser. ;-)

 

[Silverdude2167]

 
i can Ozzie Newsome   John Schneider Ted thompson  and john elway   

Just to hit on the idea that Ozzie is as good as BB as a GM. I think he is very good but he has had a lot of down years and lets not even talk about his last QB contract.
 
Balt record since he took over:
2002 - 7-9
2003 - 10-6
2004 - 9-7
2005 - 6-10
2006 - 13-3
2007 - 5-11
2008 - 11-5
2009 - 9-7
2010 - 12-4
2011 - 12-4
2012 - 10-6
2013 - 8-8
 
6 season below 10 wins. How is that doing a better job than BB?

 

[dcmissle]

Schneider has been above .500 twice, albeit has a SB.  Still only four years on the job so I'm hesitant to call him proven.
Thompson has been solid but outside of the SB, the Packers have never advanced past the divisional rounds since he took over
Elway's been on the job for three years so, again, hesitant to call him proven.
Newsome has a SB victory on his resume but a lot of down years and downright mediocrity mixed in there.
 
Belichick also has one less SB appearance than those guys have combined conference championship appearances.

Reasonable people can disagree on lots of this, but you shorted Ozzie a SB.

 

[SuperManny]

Schneider has been above .500 twice, albeit has a SB.  Still only four years on the job so I'm hesitant to call him proven.
Thompson has been solid but outside of the SB, the Packers have never advanced past the divisional rounds since he took over
Elway's been on the job for three years so, again, hesitant to call him proven.
Newsome has a SB victory on his resume but a lot of down years and downright mediocrity mixed in there.
 
Belichick also has one less SB appearance than those guys have combined conference championship appearances.

 
How much power does Schneider actually have though? From wiki, which is obviously 100% accurate.
 

On the morning of January 9, 2010, Carroll reportedly came to agreement with the Seahawks on a 5-year contract that would appoint him as head coach.[67] He was officially hired as the Seahawks head coach on January 11.[43] He was also named executive vice president of football operations, effectively making him the Seahawks' general manager as well. While the Seahawks have a general manager in John Schneider, he serves mainly in an advisory role to Carroll, who has the final say in football matters. In fact, Schneider was actually hired by Carroll—a rare case of the head coach hiring the general manager. He is one of four current NFL coaches who also have the title or powers of general manager, along with the Patriots' Bill Belichick, Philadelphia Eagles' Chip Kelly and the Kansas City Chiefs' Andy Reid.
 

 

[RIrooter09]

Reasonable people can disagree on lots of this, but you shorted Ozzie a SB.

Ozzie was named GM on November 22, 2002 according to wiki. The Ravens won their first SB in January, 2001. How are we shorting him one?

 

[dcmissle]

Ozzie was named GM on November 22, 2002 according to wiki. The Ravens won their first SB in January, 2001. How are we shorting him one?

He ran things before then, coming with the team from Cleveland. You want to get hung up on GM title, God bless you.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

 
What you seem to fail to understand is that to be a "great" GM every 3rd, 4th and 5th round pick in the draft must be an instant day one starter.  Also first and second rounders should have a 100% Hall of Fame hit rate.  Finally backup QBs should be dealt for All Pro WRs every other year. 
 
If Bill was at that baseline then we could celebrate him for being a great GM. But he isn't, so he is garbage. 

Are you serious? Nobody is that successful. That is an unreasonable standard to live up to. How about to be a "great " coach Bill must have six undefeated seasons and win the next seven Super Bowls 50-2. Nothing but greatness huh?
  .....I know you are joking but just pointing out the absurdities of that previous poster's statement that BB is over the hill. 

 

[Ralphwiggum]

The problem with putting the Pats track record up as evidence that BB is a great GM is that BB the GM has BB the coach coaching for him, and pretty much everyone agrees that his name belongs on any list of all-time great coaches. 
 
But, that's also why it is impossible to isolate his performance as GM apart from his role coaching the team.  BB the combo coach/GM has a track record in the modern era that is unparalleled.  Maybe Ozzie or someone else is a better GM, maybe not, but it really doesn't matter.  Nobody has been better at winning football games over an extended period of time in the salary cap era than Bill Belichick.

 

[Infield Infidel]

He ran things before then, coming with the team from Cleveland. You want to get hung up on GM title, God bless you.

Ozzie Newsome's first job with Cleveland after his playing career was assistant to the head coach/pro personnel. That head coach? Bill Belichick

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Ozzie Newsome's first job with Cleveland after his playing career was assistant to the head coach/pro personnel. That head coach? Bill Belichick

 
That was a good hire.
 
The Cleveland staff was ridiculous----I think it's 9 NFL head coaches or GMs plus several major college coaches.  Belichick, Newsome, Saban, Lombardi, Pioli, Schwartz, Mangini, Ferentz, Dimitroff, Tannenbaum

 

[dcmissle]

Ozzie Newsome's first job with Cleveland after his playing career was assistant to the head coach/pro personnel. That head coach? Bill Belichick

BB wanted Ozzie to play, but when Ozzie insisted on retiring, BB ran him through every aspect of the Browns organization. Ozzie freely acknowledges this.

BB's "coaching tree" is a mixed bag so far. Viewed more broadly, BB's tree has Ozzie as a redwood. Which makes me chuckle when people seem motivated to diminish Ozzie.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I think it is curious that you think that Patriots fans should be more charitable towards Ozzie because Belichick gave him his start or something.  Who gives a shit?  He's never played, coached or been associated in any way with the Pats, and he's the GM of a team that has become a pretty big rival to the Patriots.  Fuck him.

 

[quint]

I think it is curious that you think that Patriots fans should be more charitable towards Ozzie because Belichick gave him his start or something.  Who gives a shit?  He's never played, coached or been associated in any way with the Pats, and he's the GM of a team that has become a pretty big rival to the Patriots.  Fuck him.

 
 
Certainly not afraid to live up to your screen name, eh?

 

[Phragle]

Elway? Any conversation about the best GM starts with Trent Baalke and ends before Elway is mentioned.

 

[Silverdude2167]

BB wanted Ozzie to play, but when Ozzie insisted on retiring, BB ran him through every aspect of the Browns organization. Ozzie freely acknowledges this.

BB's "coaching tree" is a mixed bag so far. Viewed more broadly, BB's tree has Ozzie as a redwood. Which makes me chuckle when people seem motivated to diminish Ozzie.

Pats fans want to diminish Ozzie because he is always held up as this amazing GM while the same people do their best to put down BB. 
Ozzie is great, but I think he is overrated. 
 
This isn't fair to Ozzie, but hell Baltimore probably does not have that amazing defense they built around Ray Lewis without BB, since he was picked with an extra pick BB got from trading down the year before.

 

[dcmissle]

All of this pretty far removed from 53-man roster. Unfortunate hijack.

Comparing GMs to BB always going to be bit of apples and oranges because of BB's added duties.

But if you are discussing other GMs, one ought to at least get the # of Lomardis that individual is responsible for correct. In Ozzie's case that # is two, not one. His first draft was 1996, and his first two selections were Jonathan Ogden (at 4) and Ray Lewis (at 25).

 

[Shelterdog]

Pats fans want to diminish Ozzie because he is always held up as this amazing GM while the same people do their best to put down BB. 
Ozzie is great, but I think he is overrated. 
 
This isn't fair to Ozzie, but hell Baltimore probably does not have that amazing defense they built around Ray Lewis without BB, since he was picked with an extra pick BB got from trading down the year before.

For me the question about Ozzie is whether his habit of picking all pros in the first round is luck or a skill. Lewis, Ogden, Suggs, Boulaware, MCAllister, Heap, Ngata-he absolutely maximized a ton of his earlier first round picks. Now I tend to think he was pretty lucky-normally you can't pick a Reed or Lewis in the 20s or Ngata/Suggs at 10- but Mosley and Elam could certainly prove me wrong.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

 
 
Certainly not afraid to live up to your screen name, eh?

 
Eh, I wasn't being clear.  I wanted Romeo Crennell to be successful because he was an integral part of what Bill Belichick accomplished with the Pats.  Charlie Weiss was trickier because fuck ND, but generally speaking, as a fan, I have fond memories of those guys and would like to see them do well.  In terms of Belichick's "coaching tree", Ozzie has no such connection to the Pats.  He's obviously a good GM, but he's also the GM of a team that has become pretty big rivals with the Pats, and has beaten the Pats badly in a couple of recent playoff games.  Pats fans are therefore more likely to shit on Ozzie because of his association with the Ravens, rather than see him in a positive light because of his past association with Belichick.
 
None of this has anything to do with objectively evaluating Ozzie the GM.  I was objecting to the suggestion that it should matter to Patriot fans that BB gave him his start.
 
/end hijack

 

[MainerInExile]

Elway? Any conversation about the best GM starts with Trent Baalke and ends before Elway is mentioned.

Come on, he's brillant. Step 1: have top 5 GOAT QB get hurt, have his previous team cut him in favor of a can't - miss #1 pick, then sign him as a free agent. All skill. Step 2: profit.

 

[Darnell's Son]

Fellas please feel free to start NEW threads whenever topic starts to veer off.

Maybe if the guy running this corner of SoSH could split it out we would all win. Whoever that guy is, he's probably just sitting on his hands waiting for Skrub to fix it.

 

[rodderick]

Come on, he's brillant. Step 1: have top 5 GOAT QB get hurt, have his previous team cut him in favor of a can't - miss #1 pick, then sign him as a free agent. All skill. Step 2: profit.

 
I agree that it's way too soon to evaluate Elway, but signing Manning at the very least took skills as a negotiator. And you could also reduce Belichick as a GM to "Step 1: draft top 5 GOAT QB in the 6th round. All skill. Step 2: profit". That's not entirely fair.

 

[soxfan121]

Maybe if the guy running this corner of SoSH could split it out we would all win. Whoever that guy is, he's probably just sitting on his hands waiting for Skrub to fix it.

 
You're the kid who peed his pants waiting for permission to go to the potty, aren't you?
 
Dopes and Geeks aren't the only people who can take responsibility for starting a new thread. In fact, if you build it (i.e. start the thread) and then PM a Dope or Geek with a request to fold in related posts, they usually get it done really quickly. 

 

[soxfan121]

 
I agree that it's way too soon to evaluate Elway, but signing Manning at the very least took skills as a negotiator. And you could also reduce Belichick as a GM to "Step 1: draft top 5 GOAT QB in the 6th round. All skill. Step 2: profit". That's not entirely fair.

 
Not without "2. Build an all-time great defense with Parcells left over groceries" you can't.

 

[rodderick]

 
Not without "2. Build an all-time great defense with Parcells left over groceries" you can't.

 
That's more of an accomplishment of BB the coach than BB the GM. Obviously, he's been a very good GM, all I'm saying is that we don't need to diminish everything other GMs did to make the comparisons seem absurd.

 

[MainerInExile]

 
I agree that it's way too soon to evaluate Elway, but signing Manning at the very least took skills as a negotiator. And you could also reduce Belichick as a GM to "Step 1: draft top 5 GOAT QB in the 6th round. All skill. Step 2: profit". That's not entirely fair.

The difference, of course, is that there was no evaluation involved in signing Manning. He was already a top-5 GOAT QB. Brady was a skinny kid who couldn't run and wasn't good enough his first year to bump Michael Bishop from the #3 slot. Still a lot of luck, it's true. But come on. Apples and oranges.

 

[soxfan121]

 
That's way more of an accomplishment of BB the coach than BB the GM.

 
Anthony Pleasant, Bobby Hamilton, Richard Seymour, Mike Vrabel, Otis Smith and Ty Poole beg to differ. 

 

[rodderick]

People, I'm not saying Belichick is a bad GM, all I'm saying is that when you extol his virtues and reduce other GMs' careers to luck or pulling off no brainer moves, it's pretty unfair. Yeah, no shit, Belichick did a lot more as a GM to bring the Pats to 3 titles and a decade+ of contention than merely drafting Brady.