The 2017-2018 Celtics Will Be a Bizarre Monstrosity

slamminsammya

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I was talking with my friend today about what the C's are going to look like next year, operating on the assumption that they make a max signing, preferably Hayward but maybe Griffin or Millsap (or a PG trade). Lets say any max signing or George trade unloads one of AB/Smart and Jae Crowder. Consider the follwing possible scenario, where they sign Hayward and Paul George. The starting lineup is something like:

IT, Smart, Hayward, George, Horford.

That is a top echelon starting lineup. Let us consider the bench:

Rozier, Brown, Tatum, Yabusele, Zizic.

There are some other second rounders in the mix, Nader inclusive. But supposedly all five of those guys will want or need minutes. That bench is maybe a good NCAA team. How in the hell are they going to work this out? The starting lineup says gunning for the Eastern Conference, the bench says tanking for a draft pick/ developing youngsters. Has there ever been a team with this kind of disparity?

What the hell is going on here?
 

snowmanny

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People, including people in this very room I am sitting in alone right now, saw the bench as a fatal flaw ten years ago.
 

slamminsammya

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I guess I am not saying I am worried it will make the team worse, although it almost certainly will. I am more interested in the idea that all those young players will want minutes, all of them should get minutes in some platonic basketball sense as they are all promising young prospects.

Contrast this with 2007 when the bench options were basically zero coming out of the KG trade. To say the bench was bad or young back then was not even wrong. It was non-existent until they brought in Posey, House, Pollard. I guess they had my main man Leon Powe and Tony Allen, but they had already established themselves as solid role players at that point.
 

HomeRunBaker

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People, including people in this very room I am sitting in alone right now, saw the bench as a fatal flaw ten years ago.
Then Ainge addressed it with Cassell and PJ Brown, each of whom were instrumental in us winning playoff games and series that year. The cool thing is that Ainge is allowed to sign veteran FA as he's done during pretty much his entire tenure in Boston. The roster as it stands today is far from complete with trade season and FA signing period not even yet beginning. It's kinda early to begin worrying about roster construction when the offseason transaction period hasn't really even began yet.
 

BigSoxFan

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If they add PG-GH the quality of bench additions goes way up.
Yup. Boston is a top 3 destination if that happens, maybe even top 2 if guys think LeBron is going to LA next summer. Not concerned about the bench at all and certainly not if it means landing George. Rozier is basically a vet at this point. Jaylen already played meaningful minutes. Tatum seems ready to handle what Jaylen got last year. Zizic is a bit of a wildcard at this point but he should be ok in a bench role. Sprinkle in a couple older vets and you're good to go.
 

bosox79

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I don't even think that's a bad bench. Rozier played really well in the playoffs and JB should improve a bit. Tatum can provide scoring. Yabu/Zizic worry me a bit because rookie bigs don't fare really well, but with Theis that is a lot of fouls to give at the very least.

There will be minutes to go around. Being worried about the quality is a legit question but playing time shouldn't be a concern.
 

chilidawg

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That's a bench with a lot of unknowns, but an incredible ceiling. Brown and Rozier have shown they can contribute in the playoffs, we'll see on the others. Stevens has shown a good ability to bring young guys along and turn them into contributors.
 

JCizzle

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That's a bench with a lot of unknowns, but an incredible ceiling. Brown and Rozier have shown they can contribute in the playoffs, we'll see on the others. Stevens has shown a good ability to bring young guys along and turn them into contributors.
Yeah, that's my thought as well. I think for most tanking teams that bench lineup is their starting five being force fed minutes, not a bench unit that will be playing controlled minutes against lesser competition. As you said, the ceiling is off the charts for that group.

In this scenario, I'm also not convinced that Marcus is starting over Jaylen by mid season and Smart's presence with the second unit would provide some experienced leadership. If PG is a rental, Tatum slides into his role next year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There is zero chance they are going into the year with a bench consisting of 5 guys with ages of 23, 21, 19, 21, and 20 years old.
Exactly. It's frickin June 24th, FA season hasn't even began and there is still the July trade window. Relax guys.
 

DrewDawg

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And it's not like you need to sub all 5 guys off at once and play all 5 bench guys.
 

slamminsammya

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Right, but from a developmental perspective / feeding their value as trade chips, all those guys need some minutes. Theres only so many to go around.
 

bosox79

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Even then the Celtics had 5 players average 30+ mpg and another 5 average over 15. There will be injuries and DNPs. Yabu and Zizic could possibly be in Maine too. Time shouldn't really be a factor. Even if they sign a few bench players.
 

E5 Yaz

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This clusterhump makes a Red Sox game thread read like a Tony Robbins presentation
 

DrewDawg

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It's like you don't get that FA hasn't started yet and actually the Celtics have yet to trade away anyone...
 

HomeRunBaker

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If PGGH come, you can have 2 out of them, IT, and Al on the floor at a time with bench guys.
We are all assuming Isaiah is healthy next season. Hip injuries and the ensuing surgeries are if not potentially career ending then very likely career altering. Isaish cannot afford to lose any of his explosiveness or quickness or he's not long for this league. Last I heard he still wasn't on his feet and no decision has yet been made on surgery.
 

the moops

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May as well bump this thread. With the Bradley trade, it appears that Mickey and Jackson are gone, and Yabusele will be coming over. Roster at this time looks like

PGS - IT, Smart, Rozier
WINGS - Hayward, Crowder, Brown, Tatum
BIGS - Horford, Morris, Zizic, Theiss, Yabusele

They still have the Room Exception and one may assume they will use that on a rebounding big? What rookies make the 15 man? Dos Mickey get resigned?
 

HomeRunBaker

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May as well bump this thread. With the Bradley trade, it appears that Mickey and Jackson are gone, and Yabusele will be coming over. Roster at this time looks like

PGS - IT, Smart, Rozier
WINGS - Hayward, Crowder, Brown, Tatum
BIGS - Horford, Morris, Zizic, Theiss, Yabusele

They still have the Room Exception and one may assume they will use that on a rebounding big? What rookies make the 15 man? Dos Mickey get resigned?
I screamed for Ainge to snag Dewayne Dedmon two years ago when Orlando released him mid-season. I don't know if he has any off-court issues that caused this but it is bizarre for a rebuilding team to simply waive a young active 7-foot rim protector without cause......maybe that cause was that they are the Magic. Or maybe there is another issue being covered up.
 

Big John

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LOL, that roster doesn't look like a bizarre monstrosity to me. You can probably add Nader and Ojeleye; I don't know what they will do with Kadeem Allen and Jabari Bird.

BTW after watching last night's game there might be a two-way spot somewhere for Rosco Allen, the Hungarian who played at Stanford, unless he can make more money in Spain. He was offered a contract extension by his Spanish club but declined.

As for the room exception, won't some of that go to Theiss?
 

DavidTai

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LOL, that roster doesn't look like a bizarre monstrosity to me. You can probably add Nader and Ojeleye; I don't know what they will do with Kadeem Allen and Jabari Bird.
I thought they were earmarked for the D-League two-way slots, accounting for 16 and 17.

The way I looked at it, I ended up with:

Guards: Isaiah Thomas / Marcus Smart / Terry Rozier / FA
Wings: Gordon Hayward / Jae Crowder / Marcus Morris / Jaylen Brown / Jayson Tatum / Abdel Nader / Semi Ojeleye
Bigs: Al Horford / Ante Zizic / Guerschon Yabusele / Daniel Theis

D-League two-way players: Kadeem Allen / Jabari Bird
 

Big John

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Barbosa was waived by the Suns. I wouldn't mind bringing in the Brazilian blur in to shore up the Celtics' backcourt. They say he will go to Golden state but you never know.
 

slamminsammya

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I would like to see them grab a reliable big man vet. Behind Horford we are relying on Zizic who is 20 years old and totally untested. Theis is only 6'8 as is Yabusele. That is a lot of exposure to total rookies.

As I said in another thread I would actually not be surprised if they really struggle next year. Hayward is an upgrade, but they will be giving lots of minutes to rookies or young players with increased responsibilities like Brown and Rozier, who are not necessarily good players yet.

One of the Celtics biggest strengths last year was that they could plug in competent non-terrible players at every position, which is surprisingly rare for an NBA team. 20 year olds and rookies are, generally, below average to terrible, even if they are on the road to stardom.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I would like to see them grab a reliable big man vet. Behind Horford we are relying on Zizic who is 20 years old and totally untested. Theis is only 6'8 as is Yabusele. That is a lot of exposure to total rookies.

As I said in another thread I would actually not be surprised if they really struggle next year. Hayward is an upgrade, but they will be giving lots of minutes to rookies or young players with increased responsibilities like Brown and Rozier, who are not necessarily good players yet.

One of the Celtics biggest strengths last year was that they could plug in competent non-terrible players at every position, which is surprisingly rare for an NBA team. 20 year olds and rookies are, generally, below average to terrible, even if they are on the road to stardom.
I think you overstate how many minutes will actually be going to Brown + rookies.
 

slamminsammya

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Amir and Kelly played around 3000 minutes combined last year, or about 32 per game. I don't think its bold to say Amir and Olynyk are far superior to whatever combination of Zizic / Theis / Morris / Taytum / insert other wingman they put in there.

Sometimes you need two big men on the floor.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It's possible they will be worse in the regular season - there are a lot of new bodies so I would not be surprised at all if they started out slowly as everyone learns to gel.

But I think by playoff time they should be fine.
 

slamminsammya

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Also, should go without saying that I am judging team as is. Danny will probably bring in another body between now and the regular season.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's possible they will be worse in the regular season - there are a lot of new bodies so I would not be surprised at all if they started out slowly as everyone learns to gel.

But I think by playoff time they should be fine.
Agree as to the slow start. Plus it will be interesting to see if IT4 has to work back to be at his peak.

I hope people aren't going to go ballistic when the Cs lose a few games early in the season.
 

southshoresoxfan

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Amir and Kelly played around 3000 minutes combined last year, or about 32 per game. I don't think its bold to say Amir and Olynyk are far superior to whatever combination of Zizic / Theis / Morris / Taytum / insert other wingman they put in there.

Sometimes you need two big men on the floor.
Not only do I think Amir and Olynyks minutes aren't far superior to that group, I'm not sure they are superior at all. Morris > Olynyk and any love body > Amir
 

benhogan

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I would like to see them grab a reliable big man vet. Behind Horford we are relying on Zizic who is 20 years old and totally untested. Theis is only 6'8 as is Yabusele. That is a lot of exposure to total rookies.

.
Yes agree with this.

I'd like to see Danny add a high energy big, that can play post defense and give Horford a blow. Someone that plays 10 mins/game depending on opposing Center and plays more when Horford needs a day off. He has to be cheap, ie. vet minimum cheap.

Zizic is going to need time to develop and not counting on him.

Minimum contract possibilities: Dedmon, Speights, McGee, Len, Reed, Withey, deal for Mejri, bring back Zeller.

Any other ideas out there?
 
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smastroyin

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On February 19 of 2015, Ainge acquired Isaiah Thomas. The Celtics were 20-31. He had also recently acquired Crowder and jettisoned Rondo and Jeff Green. Some other pieces moved around too. But essentially, the current core was established on that day. Since then, the Celtics have:

Gone 20-11 in 2015 to streak into the playoffs. Yes, if you want to argue it was dumb to end up out of the lottery instead of with a good draft choice fine (Danny probably would have just ended up with Winslow). But the record's the record.
They won 48 games 2015-16.
They won 53 games and 2 playoff series 2016-17.

So they've gone 121-74 over that span. I hate to tell you, but that's better than all but a handful of NBA teams.

I just don't understand how they've managed that if Crowder, Johnson, Olynyk, etc. etc. etc. all suck.

I'm glad Brad Stevens and Danny Ainge don't give players run based on how they might look at a scouting combine.
 

cheech13

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Not only do I think Amir and Olynyks minutes aren't far superior to that group, I'm not sure they are superior at all. Morris > Olynyk and any love body > Amir
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you won't find many serious NBA fans that would support the idea that Marcus Morris is better than Olynyk or Amir Johnson, especially at the four where he can stretch in certain lineups but can't play heavy minutes.