The 2017-18 Brooklyn Nets: Who Cares?
- Thread starter Jed Zeppelin
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Okafor put up 17/7 as a 20-year-old, was the #3 pick and has the Duke pedigree. Even given his lackluster defense, off-court problems, and efficiency issues, it's not unreasonable to think that there is a useful player buried in there somewhere. Brooklyn has the time and the right coach to try and unlock that underlying talent. Deal makes sense for what both teams are trying to do.
Kilpatrick is like Jordan Crawford, he has good size for his position and can score in bunches when he has it going on; but he isn’t consistent enough to really be worth an investment.
Nets won their 11th last night in game # 26. By comparison their 11th win last year came March 6th in game # 62. Maybe the Lakers pick won't convey this year, but seems as if Danny accurately assessed the value of the Nets pick.
Yup. He seems to have timed this one perfectly. We’d all be losing it right now watching the Nets rack up wins. That Kyrie trade was a godsend. Thanks, Cleveland!
The Bulls having won three in a row have made the race to the bottom pretty interesting. Looks to me that ATL is going to be in the #1 spot, although MEM and PHO are flailing pretty well these days.
Nets currently #11.
Can you imagine what this place would be like if we didn't make the trades for Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward still got hurt? Assuming Fultz, IT4, and Morris still were out with injuries, I doubt that team is .500. And then we'd have a mid-lottery Nets pick to grumble about.
That would have been a bad season.
Nets currently #11.
Can you imagine what this place would be like if we didn't make the trades for Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward still got hurt? Assuming Fultz, IT4, and Morris still were out with injuries, I doubt that team is .500. And then we'd have a mid-lottery Nets pick to grumble about.
That would have been a bad season.
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And I thought this man was losing it before we even played a game this year.
Yeah Ainge has got to be approaching Red status as far as other teams' willingness to deal with him and how much of a nostradamus they regard him as.
He gets serious points for selling high on the nets pick. I thought we lost the Irving trade, albeit slightly. I was very, very wrong.
He gets serious points for selling high on the nets pick. I thought we lost the Irving trade, albeit slightly. I was very, very wrong.
This is probably a win-win trade for both teams.
CLE - Crowder is looking better, IT is coming back soon, they have won 15 out of 16 games, and they still have the top 10'ish Nets pick to dangle for help this year, and perhaps a semi useful future player in Zizic
BOS - Got the best player in the deal, Nets pick isn't looking like a top 5 pick, have the best record in East, etc.
And if Fultz were healthy and playing ~30 mpg at starting PG, they might be even worse than that. (Not saying Fultz is not going to be good eventually, but the chances of him being a positive player as a rookie were basically nil even before all the injury weirdness).
CLE is winning because LBJ is doing LBJ things but he's leading the league in minutes (he, Holiday, and Wiggins are the only three guys over 1000 minutes for the season; note that BOS doesn't have anyone in the top 20) and the Eastern conference doesn't look to be a cakewalk this year.
I know LBJ is superhuman but this season looks to be requiring super-superhuman efforts from him.
The Cavs may well have done the best they could under the circumstances, but for a team with championship aspirations, I don't really see how massively downgrading your #2 player (who's 25 years old, still improving, and one of your two players who legitimately worries the Warriors) can be seen as a "win."
Cleveland has to hold the pick at this point, yeah? Is it really worth it to trade future value with LeBron being such a question?
Having this turn into the Sacramento unprotected #1 isn't a bad fall back plan. Everything Ainge touches turns to gold lately. At what point do his history of embarrassingly lopsided deals compare to Auerbach's? I've been on this train before Kyrie and before Tatum +pick.
Turning Jeff Green into the 1st overall pick on 2021 should just about lock it up.
Also I wish the Kings pick was unprotected, it would save me a lot of heartburn next year.
If the Nets pick falls around #8-12, Cleveland got absolutely screwed. Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic, and a low lottery pick is an atrocious return for Kyrie Irving.
I barely count IT, since he's still not healthy, gone after this year, and doesn't move the needle a ton in terms of beating the Warriors or Rockets, who would eat him alive defensively.
Here's the Zach Lowe piece on the Grizz today:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21750982/zach-lowe-marc-gasol-mike-conley-memphis-grizzlies-nba
It's completely crazy, but their indecision and financial constraints are putting them on almost the exact trajectory Boston needs for the 2021 unprotected pick to have a chance at happening.
Edit: the Grizzlies' plan seems to be to finish outside the bottom 8 next year and get the pick to convey, but I don't see how they do that if Conley is still hurt. They'd also have to give up any chance of getting value back for Gasol (and Conley, I suppose).
This is about on par with the return for Jimmy Butler (better I'd say), and although it looks bad now, probably better than the Paul George return looked at the time to most people.
I also think writing off IT is a mistake. Eaten alive defensively or not, he's a good player, although probably best suited to a 6th man role.
This is on par with my Ainge ballwashing I've been on for several years now. He had the vision to devalue the Nets pick next summer and the foresight to envision a cash-strapped Memphis team without Z-Bo, Tony Allen and an aging Gasol being forced to rebuild just as their pick conveys to us.
Fair point on IT as a 6th man.
Paul George was one year for a guy considered an extremely serious flight risk; the reasons that deal isn't comparable have been rehashed many times.
I agree it's roughly on par to the Butler haul, but that was considered a very poor return for Chicago at the time.
I think most of the evaluation for the deal from Cleveland's end comes to down to the questions of whether
a) LeBron is likely to leave
b) Crowder + IT move the needle against the Warriors or Rockets on a Cavs team without Kyrie
My answers to those are "very", and "not much."
Need to see what comes of LaVine before fully rating the return on the Butler trade. He was averaging 18.9 ppg on .576 true shooting as a 21 year old before getting hurt.
Big contract decision looming, but if you commit a long-term contract at near-max money to him, you're getting his age 23-26 seasons, which to me looks a heckuvalot more appealing than IT's age 30-33 seasons.
Big contract decision looming, but if you commit a long-term contract at near-max money to him, you're getting his age 23-26 seasons, which to me looks a heckuvalot more appealing than IT's age 30-33 seasons.
Your mileage may vary, but I'm not big believer in LaVine. Gun to my head, I think IT's next 4 years profile better than LaVine's. Obviously if you believe in LaVine's talent more, then you take the youth of course.
And the 7'-0" wingspan. If I'm a defensive-minded coach, I feel like I can work with that combo of length and athleticism.
I'd still take LaVine over Wiggins, fwiw: slightly less ideal size, but similar youth and athleticism, a much better jumpshot, better handles/passing, and a better feel for the game.
I'd still take LaVine over Wiggins, fwiw: slightly less ideal size, but similar youth and athleticism, a much better jumpshot, better handles/passing, and a better feel for the game.
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But they also got Kris Dunn and Lauri Markkanen. For a rebuilding team, that is a much better package than the Cavs received. The Cavs were in a weird spot, though. Hell, that could end up being a really good package for Jimmy Butler. That's 3 starters.
edit: Bulls will have to make a choice on LaVine at the end of the season.
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Well, if the BRK is traded, the Cavs could end up with three starters as well with IT, Crowder, and whoever they get with the pick.
I'm not a big believer either, but if you're in Chicago or 2018-2019 Cleveland's situation, you want high variance. I think the next 4 years of LaVine has more of that high variance upside than does IT, but it's small for both. And, as pointed out, Markkanen and Dunn are both decent lottery tickets as well.
I was very down on the George trade from Indiana's point of view, but it turns out Pritchard did a good job of getting a player who had, in hindsight, a lot of upside. Getting IT and Crowder doesn't give you that shot imo.
You seem to be valuing Cleveland's return as only a future return. But that's not what their goal was. They wanted to, at a minimum, not hurt their current team and get long term assets.
The Cavs are not a rebuilding team. We still don't even know if they will be in a year since we don't know what Lebron will do. Adding a bunch of young unproven upside talent would have meant killing this season and the prospect of keeping Lebron. Maybe that's what they should have done, but it's hard to second guess trying to build a winning team while you still have the best player in the history of the game on your roster.
Yeah, that's a very valid perspective, and I'm aware of the Cavs' constraints. I guess I put their title odds low enough that I feel fine valuing the return as a future return.
With regard to the bolded, however, I think it's incredibly important in NBA team-building to second-guess consensus wisdom and perspectives. For the Cavs, it's true they have maybe the best player ever on their roster, but what would that team's odds be against the Warriors or even Rockets?
As mentioned upthread, if the Celtics had made safe, accepted, consensus moves, they'd have Fultz, IT, Crowder, and a ~10th pick right now.
The ironic part about that is even all those "consensus moves" stated above were clever deals by Danny&Co years prior. Landing IT4 for Cavs pick+, Crowder as throw in on Rondo deal and Net draft picks (Fultz, 10th pick).
Danny&Co are compounding interest that would even make Warren Buffett blush.
If IT4 plays for four years you are probably correct but what's the odds that he can stay healthy through his next deal? I'd personally say it's not very likely but that's just from the way he plays and the injuries he's already had.
Isaiah, even if he is healthy and close to the same player, is an expiring contract. Ainge sold high on that Brooklyn pick......it's value has dropped precipitously now that it's almost certain to be outside of the Top-5 and possibly outside of the first 10. Rumblings are that LaVine has taken advantage of his year away to live in the film room plus an ACL has a strong full recovery rate. I'd be surprised if LaVine wasn't immensely more valuable to Chicago than Isaiah to Cleveland over the next 3 years if for any other reason than the Cavaliers don't own Isaiah's rights past this season......and we know he's going to want to get paid if he's healthy and productive. The history of sub-6 foot guards on the wrong side of 30 is a straight shot down the cliff and as was said upthread you're getting the age 23-26 years of an uber-athletic guard just growing into his body and learning the mental part of the game.
Rarely are low lottery picks traded in a straight up deal but unless you are in that top 3-5 the return isn't going to be all that awesome. The last one I recall were Indiana moving #15 for George Hill who was labeled a 3rd guard/combo guard type of rotation player (ironically that pick was Kawhi.....good god, Buford and Pop are lethal!).
Not the same thing, but the Jazz traded up to 13 to take Donovan Mitchell.
I think people are underselling the package the Bulls received for Butler though, especially if LaVine comes back 100%. You get a 22/23 year old guy who can put up 20 points a night effectively and was making huge improvements before his injury and has the tools to be decent defensively, a 20 year old stretch big already averaging 15/8, and a 23 year old combo guard with massive defensive potential averaging 13/5/5/2.0 on decent shooting. All 3 should continue to show considerable improvement for at least the next 2 years.
It's essentially 3 lottery picks for Jimmy Butler.
I'm certainly not underselling it as I had Markkanen higher than any mock or anyone I knew leading into the draft. At one point I had him at #2 and posed that question here to suggest him in that spot......this was prior to Tatum's second half of his freshman year and the Lakers getting the 2nd pick which essentially locked them into Ball for all intent and purposes.
You know my thoughts on how Dunn's rookie year was destroyed by Thibodeau playing him short spurts and at the 2 (and even some at the 3) and we've seen him settling in as the Bulls longterm PG over the past month.
LaVine to me was always a high risk/high reward flier due to his athleticism if the mental part of his game would grow and he learned how to slow himself down. He's doing everything I would expect to continue that growth as he's come a super long way since his rookie year when I'd argue that he was THE worst basketball player in the league (usually an "award" that goes to a rookie being force fed minutes on a bad team).
Nets are dominating the Heat in Miami. Up 79-50 with 5:22 in the third. Would have loved to see this team with Lin and Russell all season.
Okafor isn't playing for the Nets. Maybe he'll follow the Anthony Bennett path and be the next lottery pick to get a look with the Maine Red Claws next year.
Apparently, Okafor needs to get into game shape http://www.givemesport.com/1225609-realistic-expectations-for-nets-center-jahlil-okafor-this-year
Ball is in his court.
He's a 22 year-old looking for playing time and redemption, it's halfway into the season, and he's weeks away from being in game shape for a rebuilding team running Timofey Mozgov and Tyler Zeller at his position. Good luck Jah.
Yeah, this pretty much tells you everything you need to know about his work ethic and future prospects. Barring a road to Damascus epiphany, he'll wind up in Europe.
A good, recent Ringer article about the Nets path to relevance. I'm kind of pulling for them and hope that they don't go after Smart this offseason. I think Nighthob sees them going after Randle but it seems to me that Smart would fit the culture, if he could hit 3's that is.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/19/16794208/nba-brooklyn-nets-sean-marks-kenny-atkinson
One thing is for sure, the Nets are going to keep trying to acquire talent at no cost but $$$.
https://www.netsdaily.com/2017/7/7/15932454/a-history-of-nets-offer-sheets-and-what-it-all-means
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/19/16794208/nba-brooklyn-nets-sean-marks-kenny-atkinson
One thing is for sure, the Nets are going to keep trying to acquire talent at no cost but $$$.
https://www.netsdaily.com/2017/7/7/15932454/a-history-of-nets-offer-sheets-and-what-it-all-means
And Jarrett Allen, who’s already miles more promising than Jah, and doesn’t need an out-of-shape prima donna taking his developmental minutes.
Right, Allen's there too. And it's not like he's a guy you can play alongside Jah in today's game. Their PT should be mutually exclusive.
Nets tied with the Bulls for 7th now, with another game against the Bulls remaining, and a Boston finale in which the Cs could give a nice fu to Cleveland.
The Knicks are a game ahead of Brooklyn, but finish with 2 games against Cleveland.
Nets looking very likely to get the 9th best lottery odds, which is a 6.1% chance of drafting top 3. I know it's tempting fate, but I'd very much enjoy seeing the Cavs left with only a #9 pick for Kyrie Irving.
The Knicks are a game ahead of Brooklyn, but finish with 2 games against Cleveland.
Nets looking very likely to get the 9th best lottery odds, which is a 6.1% chance of drafting top 3. I know it's tempting fate, but I'd very much enjoy seeing the Cavs left with only a #9 pick for Kyrie Irving.
I have great desire to gain whatever edge we can over who is likely our main competition in the East the next few years.
If you told me that I could choose between CLE drafting at #9 this year and BOS drafting at #5 next year (via SAC), or CLE drafting at #2 this year and BOS drafting at #3 this year (i.e. both win the ping-pong balls), I'm not even sure which I'd choose.
I hope Bird, Allen, Nader, Semi & Yabu all start and play 48 mins.
If you told me that I could choose between CLE drafting at #9 this year and BOS drafting at #5 next year (via SAC), or CLE drafting at #2 this year and BOS drafting at #3 this year (i.e. both win the ping-pong balls), I'm not even sure which I'd choose.
I hope Bird, Allen, Nader, Semi & Yabu all start and play 48 mins.
The Celtics future wouldn't be looking quite as bright if Ainge didn't make the Irving trade. The Celtics would be losing a max salary spot this summer when they let Thomas walk and we'd be adding what might be the 9th pick in a 5 man draft.
You'd choose Cavs #2 and Celtics #3 every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Cavs will be irrelevant once Lebron leaves. AND if LBJ stays I'm not sure how good Lue/Cavs mgmt is with drafting/developing young players. BUT I do know how deadly Danny/Brad are with high picks. Add in this year's strong draft and Danny could turn a 2018 #3 into pure gold by drafting/trading.
The Celtics 1-2 punch of Danny (drafting/trading) and Brad (developing) magnifies all high valued assets under team control compared to other teams.
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This is a bit disingenuous. Some combination of Rodney Hood, George Hill, Larry Nance Jr, and Jordan Clarkson would not be on the team without the Irving trade.
That's fair in the case of Hood and Hill.
In the Lakers' trade, Nance was in return for a pick and the Cavs' taking on Clarkson's contract. I don't think either side saw IT as a meaningful piece of the trade, beyond the Cavs' need to get rid of him for chemistry reasons.
So I'll revise my statement to "I'd very much enjoy seeing the Cavs end up with a 9 pick, Rodney Hood, and George Hill for Kyrie Irving."
Looks like this isn't that far off from what Brad intends to play as his crunch-time lineup in the last 2 games. Maybe he'll let Morris play his brother on tuesday, but we're not going to see a ton of minutes from Horford.