the 2004 ALCS, ten years later
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On a 1-10 stress scale, 2013 was a 3 and 2004 was a 10...on a logarithmic scale, like with earthquakes. So 2004 was about 100,000,000 times more intense.BornToRun said:
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MentalDisabldLst
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Rasputin said:
I dunno, if the 2004 ALCS was a stress level of 10, and the 2004 ALDS was a stress level of, say, 3... I'd say the 2013 ALCS was a solid 8. Yeah, the 2013 ALDS was probably a 2 or 3. The 2013 WS was probably a 5. But that ALCS, man, all those ridiculous games. Papi's slam. Lackey over Verlander 1-0. There were some serious nail-biters, even if the angst was gone.
edit: dammit, I was late to the scale thing by like 5 mins. wow, time to take a break.
This is a pretty good point. In some ways, the Detroit series and parts of the Tampa series were more stressful than parts of the 2004 World Series, but the 2004 ALCS is in a league all by itself Those Detroit games were as tense as games can be, but there's just no way to quantify the added burden of a history of chronic heartbreak, "1918 chants", the Yankees rivalry, and all the other baggage that hung in the balance with every pitch in the 2004 ALCS.MentalDisabldLst said:
That said, the importance of winning for Boston after the marathon bombings did add another element to 2013 beyond the importance of the games themselves. I think I just have an aversion to comparing anything to 2004, even if those comparisons might be worth discussing.
For those that joined this party after 2004, I'm sorry, you just can't understand what it meant. You can't understand the stress of it -- or the release when they won.
And yes, the AB against Clark was without a doubt the number one most stressful couple of minutes I have ever experienced.
I think that AB was the worst because for the first time in the entire series it made baseball sense for the Red Sox to lose. These were very evenly matched teams but the SP match ups favored the Red Sox, the bullpens and the benches favored the Red Sox. The Red Sox defense was better. When Mo came in in Game Four and Five the Red Sox knew they had a chance because he was great, but they had his number that year. Same with Gordon in Game Five.
But all curses and bullshit aside you had two men on against a totally gassed pitcher who was facing a lefty "power" hitter in Yankee Stadium with that short porch. So for those of us who didn't believe in curses all we had was a real baseball moment and this was a real baseball moment that we knew could go either way. And if it happened to go against us, I think many of us would have checked out from baseball for a little while. And, even worse than that, the assholes who did believe in the curse would have claimed victory for that bullshit.
After Game Three I honestly looked at the SP match ups for the next four games and I said, we can still win this. I have witnesses to this. I almost totally lost my faith in the 9th inning of game four until Roberts stole the base but it was so obvious before that game that the Red Sox were not going down easily.
Also -- SJH - that hat throwing guy is my favorite of all of them. There are some great shots of Yankee fans looking like the world has just ended from later in that game but hat thrower has always been my favorite little bitch.
And yes, the AB against Clark was without a doubt the number one most stressful couple of minutes I have ever experienced.
I think that AB was the worst because for the first time in the entire series it made baseball sense for the Red Sox to lose. These were very evenly matched teams but the SP match ups favored the Red Sox, the bullpens and the benches favored the Red Sox. The Red Sox defense was better. When Mo came in in Game Four and Five the Red Sox knew they had a chance because he was great, but they had his number that year. Same with Gordon in Game Five.
But all curses and bullshit aside you had two men on against a totally gassed pitcher who was facing a lefty "power" hitter in Yankee Stadium with that short porch. So for those of us who didn't believe in curses all we had was a real baseball moment and this was a real baseball moment that we knew could go either way. And if it happened to go against us, I think many of us would have checked out from baseball for a little while. And, even worse than that, the assholes who did believe in the curse would have claimed victory for that bullshit.
After Game Three I honestly looked at the SP match ups for the next four games and I said, we can still win this. I have witnesses to this. I almost totally lost my faith in the 9th inning of game four until Roberts stole the base but it was so obvious before that game that the Red Sox were not going down easily.
Also -- SJH - that hat throwing guy is my favorite of all of them. There are some great shots of Yankee fans looking like the world has just ended from later in that game but hat thrower has always been my favorite little bitch.
I was also there for Game 6 and was already thinking in my head that "Tony Fucking Clark" sounded way too natural. Was also standing on the lower level by a ramp for an easy exit, we were probably not too far from each other.TheoShmeo said:
The Ortiz AB in the 14th inning of game five (of course, at the end of the video on the first page of this thread) is a virtuoso exercise of someone at the peak of their powers. A savvy veteran Esteban Loaiza throws Papi every pitch in his repertoire and Ortiz, who save for the one foul ball to the right of the Pesky pole, simply cannot figure him out. That said, he spoils pitch after pitch until he fists the 11th ball thrown to him into short CF for the win. That AB lasted minutes but it felt like a lifetime.
While game six was an epic drama that served as the point that shifted everything, game five was the tip of the stake being driven into the heart of evil. Ortiz was simply brilliant that series/season but never more than that day (hitting walk-offs twice over a 24 hour period), that series and that AB.
While game six was an epic drama that served as the point that shifted everything, game five was the tip of the stake being driven into the heart of evil. Ortiz was simply brilliant that series/season but never more than that day (hitting walk-offs twice over a 24 hour period), that series and that AB.
I was driving home from my office during the first couple of innings of ALCS game 7. When Damon was thrown out at home, I'm thinking "Here we go again". Then Papi homered and then I felt significantly better. The crowd sound on the radio went from a riot to quiet as a funeral. I always felt that HR is grossly underrated in whole recollection of that series.
DOWN GOES MATSUI!
He was on his way to series MVP, but barely registered a peep in the last few games.
He was on his way to series MVP, but barely registered a peep in the last few games.
After the series I suggested some new terms. None caught on, but herel are two I remember:Dick Drago said:
Matsuied - a period of excellence performance ended by a single act of intimidation.
Bellhorned a Homer off the right field pole
I use Matsuied when I coach. "of course they fouled you hard you are on fire. Don't get Matsuied!"
Another great moment from Game 7: Sports are legendary for teammates trying to "pick up" each other. No matter what kind of horrible play a guy makes, someone will be there to console him.
When Kevin Brown left Game 7, down 2-0 and with the bases loaded, he went into the dugout and no one even LOOKED at him, much less offered his hand or said anything. When Brown walked by the tunnel, he had to pass right by Mussina, and again, nothing.
Kinda shows how his teammates thought of Kevin Brown.
When Kevin Brown left Game 7, down 2-0 and with the bases loaded, he went into the dugout and no one even LOOKED at him, much less offered his hand or said anything. When Brown walked by the tunnel, he had to pass right by Mussina, and again, nothing.
Kinda shows how his teammates thought of Kevin Brown.
Punchado said:
Another AB where it made sense for the Red Sox to lose was Leskanic vs Bernie Williams in the top of the 11th in game 4. Sheffield had been intentionally walked so that Myers could come in to face Matsui (another terrifying matchup). After he walked him on 4 pitches, Leskanic came in to face Williams with the bases loaded. That sequence felt like the final losing moves of a chess match, but he got him to fly to center.
Yet another incredible but overlooked moment came earlier that inning. Jeter had bunted Cairo over to second with one out. ARod hit a solid line drive and Cabrera made an outstanding diving stab. If ARod hits it slightly more to the left, or slightly harder, or if OCab is slower or slips a fraction of an inch, the Red Sox probably don't go on to win the game, ALCS, or World Series.
I go back to the top of the 8th of game 5 and the Yankees were up 4-2. Cairo leads off with a double against Timlin. And Jeter bunts him over to third. So ARod with a chance to give them a 3 run lead strikes out. I don't think Jeter should've bunted but if ARod gets that run in there I don't think they comeback and win.
Thanks to this thread and the many great moments and memories shared here, I've been inspired to bust out the box set and re-watch the key innings of these games. It's been a couple of years since I've done it, but it certainly never gets old. A few things that stand out this time that I don't think haven't already been mentioned (I'm only on Game 5):
Ortiz talks about the HR after Game 4 and mentions how he looked for the pitch that Quantrill liked to get him out on. Turns out he's not just a good hitter. He's smart, too.
Arroyo striking out ARod in the 10th of Game 5 and ultimately pitching a scoreless inning. After the fight game in July of that season and the home run ARod hit off him in Game 3, how could it get more satisfying? Oh, that's right--Game 6's Slappygate.
The moment has been alluded to, but after some very careful scrutiny, I think I finally detected the angel that lifted Tony Clark's ground rule double into the stands, keeping Sierra at third. If you don't believe me, check it out. Or give me a better explanation.
Manny's error in the 12th of Game 5 after Wakefield enters the game. Wakefield gets through the inning rather easily after that, but imagine the avalanche that would have ensued if that error had occurred in the 13th--for me the inning that came closest to causing me to pee my pants. And probably Varitek, as well. And why do I ALWAYS forget that he came out and pitched the 14th, too? And poor Tony Clark blasts one into right a few feet foul before striking out.
Speaking of pants-peeing, during Papi's epic AB in the 14th of Game 5, my bladder was about to burst but I wanted to wait until after the AB to go. About 9 pitches in, I couldn't take it any more and instead of heading upstairs to the bathroom where I'd have most assuredly missed everything, I went outside and took care of business by the side of the house while looking through a window where I could see the tv. And that is the point from which I witnessed Papi's walkoff. I'm pretty sure my pants were up when I did my crazed victory lap around the yard, complete with primal scream, but who knows? The more important point is that my wife who, bless her non-sports loving soul, was there watching with me and we've managed to stay married.
It's all still just so......not possible.
Ortiz talks about the HR after Game 4 and mentions how he looked for the pitch that Quantrill liked to get him out on. Turns out he's not just a good hitter. He's smart, too.
Arroyo striking out ARod in the 10th of Game 5 and ultimately pitching a scoreless inning. After the fight game in July of that season and the home run ARod hit off him in Game 3, how could it get more satisfying? Oh, that's right--Game 6's Slappygate.
The moment has been alluded to, but after some very careful scrutiny, I think I finally detected the angel that lifted Tony Clark's ground rule double into the stands, keeping Sierra at third. If you don't believe me, check it out. Or give me a better explanation.
Manny's error in the 12th of Game 5 after Wakefield enters the game. Wakefield gets through the inning rather easily after that, but imagine the avalanche that would have ensued if that error had occurred in the 13th--for me the inning that came closest to causing me to pee my pants. And probably Varitek, as well. And why do I ALWAYS forget that he came out and pitched the 14th, too? And poor Tony Clark blasts one into right a few feet foul before striking out.
Speaking of pants-peeing, during Papi's epic AB in the 14th of Game 5, my bladder was about to burst but I wanted to wait until after the AB to go. About 9 pitches in, I couldn't take it any more and instead of heading upstairs to the bathroom where I'd have most assuredly missed everything, I went outside and took care of business by the side of the house while looking through a window where I could see the tv. And that is the point from which I witnessed Papi's walkoff. I'm pretty sure my pants were up when I did my crazed victory lap around the yard, complete with primal scream, but who knows? The more important point is that my wife who, bless her non-sports loving soul, was there watching with me and we've managed to stay married.
It's all still just so......not possible.
There is so much beautiful to love about that ALCS, and one of them is the relentlessness of Game 7.
Damon gets thrown out at home in the first inning. The next pitch, Ortiz belts a two run home run.
Later, Brown is pulled with the bases loaded, and Vazquez is brought in. As Vazquez sets and delivers, Joe Buck reminisces about Mike Mussina coming on in relief to toss three shutdown innings against the Red Sox in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He notes Vazquez is "trying to do the same". Vazquez delivers, and Damon drives one over the right field wall, putting the game and the series out of reach.
Damon gets thrown out at home in the first inning. The next pitch, Ortiz belts a two run home run.
Later, Brown is pulled with the bases loaded, and Vazquez is brought in. As Vazquez sets and delivers, Joe Buck reminisces about Mike Mussina coming on in relief to toss three shutdown innings against the Red Sox in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS. He notes Vazquez is "trying to do the same". Vazquez delivers, and Damon drives one over the right field wall, putting the game and the series out of reach.
I've been a big-time lurker on this site since 2008, & am a relatively new member. I, like many of you, just remember being glued to the entire series & experiencing the rollercoaster rides. But of all the threads I've read, this one has just gotta be the best (though I can't speak for V&N &/or P&G). Just reliving everything & reading the stories is exhilarating.
Watching Game 6 now. What an incredibly ironic purge that 8th inning was on so many levels after all those years of shit. Watching ARod, the Yankees, and their fans melt down right before the eyes of the world is as gratifying now as it was shocking and a pure relief then. Ugly inning, but oh so gorgeous.
dwainw said:
The only thing that could have made it sweeter is if they cut to George Steinbrenner biting down on his lip as garbage cascaded down over his head and onto the field.
A story that cracks me up every time comes from a friend of mine. His dad is a very kind soul, as caring and empathetic a person as you could hope to meet. He is also a Mets fan, and hates the Yankees.
Towards the end of game 7, when Fox was showing lots of stunned and miserable Yankees fans in the crowd, my friend's dad started laughing maniacally with clenched fists, shouting at the screen, "SUFFER! SUFFER!!!". Awesome.
Towards the end of game 7, when Fox was showing lots of stunned and miserable Yankees fans in the crowd, my friend's dad started laughing maniacally with clenched fists, shouting at the screen, "SUFFER! SUFFER!!!". Awesome.
I was just watching the top of the ninth of game 7 and Joe Buck had a great line. With 2 outs Torre brings in Mariano so they go to commercial and Buck says "the Yankees bring in Rivera and the Red Sox couldn't care less."
Rudy Pemberton said:
[SIZE=13.63636302948px]Don't forget about El Duque's dead arm. He only pitched 5 innings all series (after missing the ALDS entirely) and didn't look like himself at all. If he actually looks like himself in game 4, 1.) the Yankees don't have to go to the bullpen so early, and 2.) he probably supplants Kevin Brown in Game 7, since Brown got rocked in Game 3.[/SIZE]
I'll echo what everyone else here said - the Tony Clark AB at the end of Game 6 was the most nerve-wracking AB I can remember. It was the only time in the series where the Yankees were one pitch or swing away from ending it. I was sitting way in the back of the upper deck in left field, and I absolutely expected that Clark would hit a home run. In fact, after Clark swung at the 3-2 pitch, I didn't see the ball come off the bat, so I assumed he had hit it too hard for me to pick up immediately; it took me a second to realize that he had missed it entirely. I remember shouting "YEAH" and hearing my own voice echoing "Yeah...yeah...yeah." I also remember a bunch of fans turning and looking at me. I still can't believe I didn't get killed at that game.
Actually, I think my favorite part of game 6 was when I was leaving the game and one of the t-shirt vendors selling "Who's Your Daddy?" t-shirts was outside yelling, "We are still their daddies. WE ARE STILL THEIR DADDIES!" That might still be the most pathetic sentence I've ever heard someone actually say.
Hank Scorpio said:
The only thing that could have made it sweeter is if they cut to George Steinbrenner biting down on his lip as garbage cascaded down over his head and onto the field.
This makes me consider the question, if you could change anything about this series, would you?
Almost anything I'd want to change while watching the games (for example, the Sox failing to score again in the bottom of the 9th in game 4 against Rivera after getting Mueller to 3rd with one out), ends up leading to something even better later (using the same example, increasing the number of pitches that Rivera and the Yankees bullpen had to throw, all the magic that happened in those extra innings, etc.)
I would have enjoyed seeing Wakefield on the mound for the final pitch after the way 2003 ended.
I MIGHT change having Tito bring in Pedro for no conceivable reason in Game 7. That move is only topped by Grady's Boner in the pantheon of idiotic decisions by Boston managers in recent memory. And until Bellhorn hit his first foul pole, Pedro's appearance gave us some reason for concern, even if the unthinkable seemed so improbable.canyoubelieveit said:
On the other hand, that move did result in Wake getting to pitch the opener, Pedro getting his start in game 3 and we've all seen "It's a Wonderful Life" and what can happen if you adjust the past....
And on the other hand, it was kind of nice to see Pedro settle down and emerge relatively unscathed. At least it is nice in retrospect.
There is a lot of revisionist history about Pedro's game 7 appearance - much of it driven by Pedro himself.
Tito had stated that Lowe would go as far as possible and then it was all hands on deck. He also said it was possible that he would use Pedro for an inning because it was his throw day in any case. So I was not at all surprised to see him come in.
I think a lot of the discussion over the years comes from a few places. First, despite throwing gas (stadium gun had him at 96, which was fast for him in 2004) Pedro had poor control and got hit a bit.
This fired up the crowd, which had been dead before, and I think there is a lot of second guessing of the move on that basis alone. The whole "why give them life?" argument.
Lastly, there is Pedro himself, who has claimed that he didn't warm up properly and was surprised to get the call. I think this is nothing more than Pedro reinventing history to cover his poor outing.
I was there that night and will admit to anxiety when the crowd started rocking. And to me this is the only valid criticism - was the game situation such that he no longer should have used him? But the damage was minimal and I'm not going to second guess.
Tito had stated that Lowe would go as far as possible and then it was all hands on deck. He also said it was possible that he would use Pedro for an inning because it was his throw day in any case. So I was not at all surprised to see him come in.
I think a lot of the discussion over the years comes from a few places. First, despite throwing gas (stadium gun had him at 96, which was fast for him in 2004) Pedro had poor control and got hit a bit.
This fired up the crowd, which had been dead before, and I think there is a lot of second guessing of the move on that basis alone. The whole "why give them life?" argument.
Lastly, there is Pedro himself, who has claimed that he didn't warm up properly and was surprised to get the call. I think this is nothing more than Pedro reinventing history to cover his poor outing.
I was there that night and will admit to anxiety when the crowd started rocking. And to me this is the only valid criticism - was the game situation such that he no longer should have used him? But the damage was minimal and I'm not going to second guess.
Dan Murfman said:
Before this thread and this clip, I was not aware of this delicious moment. Thank you.
Okay, this was from the ALDS in 2004 but one of the DVD's caught a fantastic moment on the field. Garrett Anderson, a lefty hitting outfielder for the Angels is approaching the plate and a directional mike pointed at him as the P.A. system announces that the Red Sox are bringing in LOOGY deluxe Mike Myers to face him clearly catches Anderson saying, "Oh, shit!"
Someone mentioned Tito keeping Pedro in there one at bat too many and Nixon nearly getting knocked over by Matsui's line drive. Always thought that was the most ironic thing about 2004 vs 2003. Grady leaves Pedro in and Matsui lines one off the chalk in right field. Tito leaves Pedro in and gets away with it.Dick Drago said:
Of course, Grady left Pedro in several batters more than Matsui and messed up a bunch of other things in that game, so don't think I'm saying he was unlucky by any means.
I read his lips that night. Are you sure he didn't say, "Damn?"Rough Carrigan said:
He'd faced Myers quite a few times since Myers started the season in Seattle, so Anderson knew he had no chance.
I gave up on sports memorabilia and autograph collecting around by the time I turned ten, but there's one exception that eludes me; for the past decade, I've wanted to get this (my actual ticket) printed on glossy paper and track down G38 for a signature:
http://home.comcast.net/~atnw/alcsgame6.pdf
http://home.comcast.net/~atnw/alcsgame6.pdf
For me at least, the second guessing is not any different than what I had done at the time. Given what had happened the year before and the "who's your daddy?" nonsense, and the possibility that Pedro could open the World Series, Pedro was the last guy I wanted to see in that situation. Nothing against him, of course, but I thought he might energize the Yankees and the Terlit crowd, and it just seemed so unnecessary when up by 7 runs. That Pedro has maintained that he got too few warm up pitches and wasn't ready when he got in the game only makes it worse, but I didn't know that at the time and, as I said, I was pretty horrified by the sight of him coming to the game.Average Reds said:
On a personal note, the TV cameras caught a friend/biz associate/MFY fan whupping it up when the Yankees scored, and thoughts of him shoving it down my throat were an unpleasant footnote. Happily, that footnote, like everything about Pedro's appearance, became nothing more than a weird piece of the otherwise ridiculously awesome puzzle, but I still think the move made little sense. Yeah, all hands on deck, but there were other hands to go to, even with the heavy usage of the pen to that point.
I just bought Hall and Nowlin's book. No better way to take the edge off a Cardinal's victory! Can't wait to start it after the kids are down.
tims4wins said:
Another unforgettable on-field moment from that game: Schilling, Wakefield and Lowe stroll from the dugout to the bullpen (effectively announcing, 'We're all available-- whatever it takes!') in the middle of the ninth, looking like three desperados in John Wayne movie. IIRC, it happened during a commerical, but Fox replayed it when they came back from break, complete with the crowd going berserk. Somewhere between Papi's solo HR in the 8th and this moment, I stopped entertaining any ideas that we could lose. To me, this was the Stalingrad moment-- the moment where, despite being almost defeated, you realize that the opponent doesn't have the strength left to win.
tims4wins said:
You really could say the same about game 4. Here are two easily forgotten details from earlier in the game which allowed the Sox to narrowly avoid a sweep by the absolute slimmest of margins:
1. In the bottom of the 4th, trailing 2-0, Damon was up with runners at first and second. He hit an apparent double-play ball, but hustled down the line and Cairo took an instant too long to release it, and Damon just beat the throw to first. The Sox went on to score 3 two-out runs, which obviously were needed to eventually win in extras.
2. In the next half inning, the Sox very frustratingly blew the lead when the Yankees scored 3 off of Timlin (relieving Lowe) with 3 weak infield grounders that no one could handle. Classic "not getting the breaks" Red Sox misery in action. But in that same half-inning, Bernie Williams made the second out trying to advance to 3rd on a wild pitch. He beat the throw but Mueller did an amazing job of blocking the bag with his foot so Williams' leg slid over it. Even more amazingly, the umpire must have seen that and called it correctly. Otherwise, at least one more run scores that inning...and the Sox get swept in 4.
Maybe it's my sunshine memory, but the umpiring in that series really stands out. I don't remember a bad call that stood; the umpires actually conferred with each other and corrected their bad calls, which was extraordinary; and a lot of very, very close plays like the one here got the correct call. It's not that the umps were favoring the Sox, it's that they did a terrific job of making the right calls.canyoubelieveit said:
There were at least four distinct spots where the umps could easily have made the wrong call, or let the wrong call stand, and the Sox would have been out.
My favorite part of that scene is the glimpse of someone in the Red Sox bullpen (my guess is, Dana LeVangie) waving his arms toward the crowd in the classic "make some noise" motion. Watching a player or coach get caught up in the emotion of that moment, knowing full well what's at stake, is pretty cool.m0ckduck said:
TheoShmeo said:
It's the bolded part that gets under my skin, because it is simply false. As I said, I was there and watched him warm up for a long time before going into the game. This is why I've always looked at this as Pedro feeling embarrassed and stoking a controversy that didn't exist.
Yeah, Pedro's inning could have gone more smoothly. But the Sox were up 8-1 when Pedro came in and needed to get three innings out of the pen to get home. As Tito announced before the game, the first guy up was a starter who was on his "throw day."
Anyway, no more discussing this one element of what was the most glorious moment of my life.*
*With the possible exception of the birth of my children, assuming they live up to expectations.
PseuFighter said:
LCS or "League Series" home game 3 or 4...is that the way all teams do it or are the Yankees bigger than the game? I mean, why not LCS game or 6 or 7? ALCS even.PseuFighter said:Also just found some scans from the stubs I had (have somewhere?) for two particular Game 7s:
Those are cool. I love collectibles. Old baseball cards, old Sox programs. I even save Sox - A's ticket stubs, all with the A's as home team for years now and keep them on a shelf with shaving stuff, etc. Green and gold don't really go with red and white but I can't throw them out.
When the tickets are first printed out there is no way to know what game it will be for. If they have home field advantage then Game 3 is game 6 but if they don't game 3 will actually be game 5.Al Zarilla said:
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