He told McHale during the game to get as many as he could, because he was going to score 60.I love how McHale knocks Bird out of the top spot on 3/3/83 and Bird comes back 9 days later and drops 60.
He told McHale during the game to get as many as he could, because he was going to score 60.I love how McHale knocks Bird out of the top spot on 3/3/83 and Bird comes back 9 days later and drops 60.
The bolded was typical of the 1984-85 Celtics. Cedric Maxwell, after a strong 1984 season in which he played a key role in the Celtics win Game 7 of the Finals, missed training camp in a contract dispute. And while he didn't miss any regular season games, he was badly out of shape to start the season. However, he worked his way back and was a key part of the Celtics rotation, starting most games but usually ceding minutes to Kevin McHale when The Lanky One came off the bench. Red Auerbach, who came from an era during which there was no free agency, never truly forgave Maxwell for holding out, and would hold it against him later.I watched both the McHale 58 point game and the Bird 60 a few games after it. It’s tough to top the Bird performance in style points, because he was making shots from all over the court (to the famous reaction of the Hawks’ bench), but it was done in a game where the Celtics ran out to a lead early, and held it all game. Looking at the box score, the Celts had 44 assists on 52 buckets with DJ tallying 17 and Ainge 13. KC Jones’ load management game wasn’t strong, with three starters going 40 minutes, two going 38.
Tatum’s 60 came in an epic comeback, and will be remembered that way. The way he scores so effortlessly, the way points can be accumulated so quickly with threeballs, and the way he can draw fouls, Tatum will score 50+ points quite often, and I won’t be surprised when he goes over 60.
great recap, thanks for that!The bolded was typical of the 1984-85 Celtics. Cedric Maxwell, after a strong 1984 season in which he played a key role in the Celtics win Game 7 of the Finals, missed training camp in a contract dispute. And while he didn't miss any regular season games, he was badly out of shape to start the season. However, he worked his way back and was a key part of the Celtics rotation, starting most games but usually ceding minutes to Kevin McHale when The Lanky One came off the bench. Red Auerbach, who came from an era during which there was no free agency, never truly forgave Maxwell for holding out, and would hold it against him later.
The Celtics were still a bit thin in the back court. Gerald Henderson, a key contributor to the 1984 championship, was traded to Seattle before the season for the draft pick that would tragically become Len Bias. Quinn Buckner was essentially useless by that point. Carlos Clark and Rick Carlisle were Geeno-time players before there was a Geeno-time. In a hope to shore up the back court, the Celtics signed free agent Ray Williams from the Knicks in February for the price of 2 second rounders. Williams would, however, need some time to get into shape and find his way into the rotation. Williams did contribute some reasonably solid bench minutes late in the regular season and in the early playoff rounds, but was a non-factor in the Finals against the Lakers. Unfortunately, there was a sad coda to Williams' career, as he was highlighted in a Boston Globe story in 2010 that showed the homeless former player living out of his car, and 3 years later he passed away from colon cancer at the too young age of 58.
A big issue for that team was Maxwell, who tweaked his knee in a game against the Jazz in December. He played through it for 2 months, which was not unusual for a player that missed all of 24 games in his 7 prior seasons, 10 of which were DNP-CD's in his rookie year. But after a loss to the Lakers in February, he told Red and KC that he could not play through it any longer and wanted to get it scoped. For whatever reason, Red was skeptical of the injury, and that skepticism inexplicably continued when the procedure showed some cartilage damage that was repaired. For whatever reason, Red and the Celtics training staff made the procedure to be minor and could not understand it at all when Maxwell would miss 5 weeks. With time running out on the regular season, Maxwell returned, but was only was a shell of his former self. Max was never the same player after that, IIRC he blamed the fact that he rushed back to play. His absence really killed the team's depth; the only other forwards were Scott Wedman, a shooting specialist who could not be counted on for anything resembling defense, and 34 year old ML Carr, who's main purpose at that point was to wave towels.
When the Celtics played the Hawks in New Orleans, Maxwell was out. The first 2 players off the bench were Wedman (20 minutes) and Williams (15), a reasonable amount given that Williams was still working his way back into game shape at the time. The other players available were Buckner, Carr, Clark, Carlisle, and, of course, Greg Kite. The Celtics won by 11, and were certainly in control most of the game, but it wasn't like KC could take his foot off the gas at any point during the game. And there was no way he was going to sit Bird in the 4th quarter once it became apparent that a record was in sight.
The lack of depth eventually caught up to the 1985 Celtics. Bird (+1.2), McHale (+2.2), Parish (+0.3), Dennis Johnson (+3.9) all played more minutes than they did the prior season (as did Ainge, but he came off the bench in 1983-84). But the chickens really came home to roost in the playoffs: Parish (+0.4), DJ (+3.7), McHale (+9.4) and Wedman (+3.3) all played more playoff minutes, with only Bird playing fewer (-1.0, but still 40.8 mpg). And Bird, DJ, and McHale all averaged over 40 mpg in the Finals against the Lakers, with Parish (37.2) and Ainge (33.8) not far behind. Wedman averaged 17.5, while no other player averaged more than 9 (Maxwell). Meanwhile the Lakers had 7 players average at least 22 minutes (Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Byron Scott, Bob McAdoo, and Kurt Rambis), with Mitch Kupchak throwing in another 14. And no Laker averaged more than Worthy's and Magic's 39.2 minutes.
Maxwell being a non-factor in the Finals led to his acrimonious departure, as Red basically threw him under the bus for the loss, and would send Max packing to the LA Clippers. Of course, the return was one Bill Walton. But that's another story.
EDIT: I personally would give the edge to Tatum's performance. Leading a comeback from being 32 points down, and scoring 31 of those 60 in the 4th quarter and OT with literally zero margin for error, while not turning the ball over once should absolutely go down as one of the most remarkable single-game performances in franchise history.
Tatum has expanded the type of close to the basket shots this season. He uses his length to get to the other side of the rim often. He throws up 3-5 foot mini-floaters off odd angles while shouldering defenders. He’s also strong enough now to straight bogart defenders trying to stop him when standing straight up, hands up. He even threw up a nice finger roll recently.The story for Tatum this season remains his improvement in two areas: finishing around the rim and passing.
Around the rim he’s finishing his shots at the following rate: this season / career
0-3 ft: .726 / .658
3-10 ft: .420 / .366
And his % of shots taken at those distances:
0-3: .186 / .248
3-10: .216 / .157
His finishing at the rim seems to be driven by both just improved finishing and being more selective. You’ll likely recall last year when he really tried to strip out his mid range game/wasn’t passing and repeatedly forced wild layups he couldn’t make. He’s trading out some wild layups for near mid range shots, which he’s taking at a much higher rate than his career and getting close to a decent % on the shots he takes. I think he’ll continue to improve in this area as he gets more consistent with his floaters and has teammate he can rely on to create for.
His improvements in passing are well covered in this thread but need to be pointed out. His assist rate is at 20.5% vs 14.5% last year and 10.0% the year before. He’s still got a ways to go to be an elite playmaker and considered a top 5 or even 10 offensive player but he’s making progress.
They don't lump centers and forwards together do they? I think there will be three centers (probably Jokic, Embiid, Gobert) and six forwards. Those six will probably be some combo of Giannis, Lebron, Randle, PG, Kawhi, Zion, and Tatum.Just trying to spell out who the locks are for the forward positions, now that King James has returned:
LeBron, Jokic, Giannis, Kawhi, and Embiid seem obvious. Leaves 4 slots for Tatum, Zion, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Gobert, and Randle. Too few games for AD or KD to be given consideration.
Backcourt is similarly jammed: Luka and Steph are the locks. But that leaves Lillard, Beal, Harden, Kyrie, Mitchell and Chris Paul to battle over the remaining 4 spots.
Did I miss anyone?
They don't.They don't lump centers and forwards together do they? I think there will be three centers (probably Jokic, Embiid, Gobert) and six forwards. Those six will probably be some combo of Giannis, Lebron, Randle, PG, Kawhi, Zion, and Tatum.
There's one other thing I remember about Bird, McHale, and McHale's 56 point game.He told McHale during the game to get as many as he could, because he was going to score 60.
Mike Gorman is an incredible class act. I love hearing him talk about the Celtic history he has seen.
I love this stories. Love them.And Kent Benson was the Detroit Piston who drew the unfortunate assignment of trying to guard Kevin McHale in his 56 point game. Bird was happy to let McHale destroy his old tormentor.
Nice research. thanksThe story for Tatum this season remains his improvement in two areas: finishing around the rim and passing.
Around the rim he’s finishing his shots at the following rate: this season / career
0-3 ft: .726 / .658
3-10 ft: .420 / .366
And his % of shots taken at those distances:
0-3: .186 / .248
3-10: .216 / .157
His finishing at the rim seems to be driven by both just improved finishing and being more selective. You’ll likely recall last year when he really tried to strip out his mid range game/wasn’t passing and repeatedly forced wild layups he couldn’t make. He’s trading out some wild layups for near mid range shots, which he’s taking at a much higher rate than his career and getting a decent % on the shots he takes. I think he’ll continue to improve in this area as he gets more consistent with his floaters and has teammate he can rely on to create for.
His improvements in passing are well covered in this thread but need to be pointed out. His assist rate is at 20.5% vs 14.5% last year and 10.0% the year before. He’s still got a ways to go to be an elite playmaker and considered a top 5 or even 10 offensive player but he’s making progress.
edit for context: KD is at .735% 0-3 and .445 3-10 for his career. Like Tatum he started slower and now in his prime he’s averaged closer to .800 and near .500 the past few seasons.
Been drawing for awhile. Last 11 games, 8.8 FTA/G. First 46, 4.4 FGA/G.Nice research. thanks
We saw Tatum go through (and draw) on a beefy BIG (Poeltl) around the hoop a few times. That's HUGE. It feels like he is emerging out of his COVID haze. A summer of adding some muscle/strength will turn him into foul drawing machine. Still plenty of offensive upside here
Do you think the difference in defenses over the years will make those actions as effective as they were for Larry?His scoring is really reminding me of Bird. I am not saying he is the all around player Bird was, but as a scorer he is right there. He has been doing for a month what Bird did for years, but he is younger. Tatum is an incredible scorer.
To me he is more Bird than Pierce. I mean he is just getting to a spot and shooting over people, because he is bigger, and can make shots with guys all over him. He isn't telling X before the timeout, but there are many of the same type of shots. Like Bird he doesn't blow by people with absurd athleticism, but because they have to play him so tight. But he is closer to the top athletes of his era than Bird was so can power drive and dunk it too. Bird was nuts with his reverses, floaters, in tight bank shots etc, but I think it's wash with Tatum's vertical game.
If he never gets the insane confidence Bird had at the end of games, that is like saying pitcher didn't acquire Pedro's changeup. Probably not seeing that again in our lifetime.
To me this means they need to design plays like they ran for Larry at the end of games, wing cathes, insceens, etc, rather than the Iso off the ballscreen.
He's certainly the closest thing we have seen to Bird in the past 29 years. A great shooter who can score is a variety of different ways and a well-rounded player not just a pure shooter/scorer.His scoring is really reminding me of Bird. I am not saying he is the all around player Bird was, but as a scorer he is right there. He has been doing for a month what Bird did for years, but he is younger. Tatum is an incredible scorer.
To me he is more Bird than Pierce. I mean he is just getting to a spot and shooting over people, because he is bigger, and can make shots with guys all over him. He isn't telling X before the timeout, but there are many of the same type of shots. Like Bird he doesn't blow by people with absurd athleticism, but because they have to play him so tight. But he is closer to the top athletes of his era than Bird was so can power drive and dunk it too. Bird was nuts with his reverses, floaters, in tight bank shots etc, but I think it's wash with Tatum's vertical game.
If he never gets the insane confidence Bird had at the end of games, that is like saying pitcher didn't acquire Pedro's changeup. Probably not seeing that again in our lifetime.
To me this means they need to design plays like they ran for Larry at the end of games, wing cathes, insceens, etc, rather than the Iso off the ballscreen.
Ain't that The Truth. I'm here all week.A great shooter who can score is a variety of different ways and a well-rounded player not just a pure shooter/scorer.
A month ago I would have said, Bird wasn't walking, you know the rest, but now..Do you think the difference in defenses over the years will make those actions as effective as they were for Larry?
I love everything about this post.His scoring is really reminding me of Bird. I am not saying he is the all around player Bird was, but as a scorer he is right there. He has been doing for a month what Bird did for years, but he is younger. Tatum is an incredible scorer.
To me he is more Bird than Pierce. I mean he is just getting to a spot and shooting over people, because he is bigger, and can make shots with guys all over him. He isn't telling X before the timeout, but there are many of the same type of shots. Like Bird he doesn't blow by people with absurd athleticism, but because they have to play him so tight. But he is closer to the top athletes of his era than Bird was so can power drive and dunk it too. Bird was nuts with his reverses, floaters, in tight bank shots etc, but I think it's wash with Tatum's vertical game.
If he never gets the insane confidence Bird had at the end of games, that is like saying pitcher didn't acquire Pedro's changeup. Probably not seeing that again in our lifetime.
To me this means they need to design plays like they ran for Larry at the end of games, wing cathes, insceens, etc, rather than the Iso off the ballscreen.
Great observation. He realizes how much respect his turnaround has so the shot fake is deadly now.Not sure exactly when the turnaround happened but he has committed to keeping his dribble in the paint in a way that allows him more options for scoring easily or drawing a foul. He's simply getting closer to the rim before going up with his shots. More up and unders, etc. He went through this to some degree as a rookie to when he would do that loooong swoop layup until defenses caught on. This is a little bit more herky jerky, but also aggressive and more intentional. His footwork is so good and he's so damn long that getting that much closer to the rim makes it so much easier for him.
It's the difference between getting a pretty good look and an unmissable look.
Especially because last year he showed that he can be a dangerous ISO player, was in the 76th percentile with 16% ISO frequency, as opposed to the 39th percentile on 18.4% frequency this season.I just think its remarkable what his upside is when you consider that he is having a fantastic season despite:
1) Being one of the highest iso usage players in the league while also
2) being one of the least efficient iso players in the league.
How much better does he get when he starts converting even a few of those turnaround mid range shots into fouls or passes to teammates? Or just makes more of them?
Right.But I don't think a single player can take up 2 spots. So, while Embiid can be eligible for both, he will get in only as a C or F, not both. But I could see a scenario that somehow KAT, AD or, worse, Bam gets one of the 3 C slots and some downstream affects from there. For example, C's are Jokic, Gobert, and KAT, with the voters placing Embiid placing one of the F spots as a result (or some other permutation).
I realize they play different positions, but for Bam Adebayo to get an All-NBA slot ahead of Tatum would be somewhere between a mockery and a travesty.Right.
But if they weren't eligible at both spots, the three centers would be locked in as Jokic, Embiid and Rudy, leaving six forward spots open.
I think it's very possible with dual eligibilty, Jokic and Embiid both make first team. That bumps Rudy up as 2nd team center and a third guy, probably Adebayo, that would've had no shot as 3rd team center. Then only five forwards spots are open since they would be giving one to a center in this scenario.
I agree.I realize they play different positions, but for Bam Adebayo to get an All-NBA slot ahead of Tatum would be somewhere between a mockery and a travesty.
Along with Bird's driveway, Bias, the lack of depth killed that dynasty. I know I defend the past eras, but the 80s Cs had at least two non NBA level guys at all times.The bolded was typical of the 1984-85 Celtics. Cedric Maxwell, after a strong 1984 season in which he played a key role in the Celtics win Game 7 of the Finals, missed training camp in a contract dispute. And while he didn't miss any regular season games, he was badly out of shape to start the season. However, he worked his way back and was a key part of the Celtics rotation, starting most games but usually ceding minutes to Kevin McHale when The Lanky One came off the bench. Red Auerbach, who came from an era during which there was no free agency, never truly forgave Maxwell for holding out, and would hold it against him later.
The Celtics were still a bit thin in the back court. Gerald Henderson, a key contributor to the 1984 championship, was traded to Seattle before the season for the draft pick that would tragically become Len Bias. Quinn Buckner was essentially useless by that point. Carlos Clark and Rick Carlisle were Geeno-time players before there was a Geeno-time. In a hope to shore up the back court, the Celtics signed free agent Ray Williams from the Knicks in February for the price of 2 second rounders. Williams would, however, need some time to get into shape and find his way into the rotation. Williams did contribute some reasonably solid bench minutes late in the regular season and in the early playoff rounds, but was a non-factor in the Finals against the Lakers. Unfortunately, there was a sad coda to Williams' career, as he was highlighted in a Boston Globe story in 2010 that showed the homeless former player living out of his car, and 3 years later he passed away from colon cancer at the too young age of 58.
A big issue for that team was Maxwell, who tweaked his knee in a game against the Jazz in December. He played through it for 2 months, which was not unusual for a player that missed all of 24 games in his 7 prior seasons, 10 of which were DNP-CD's in his rookie year. But after a loss to the Lakers in February, he told Red and KC that he could not play through it any longer and wanted to get it scoped. For whatever reason, Red was skeptical of the injury, and that skepticism inexplicably continued when the procedure showed some cartilage damage that was repaired. For whatever reason, Red and the Celtics training staff made the procedure to be minor and could not understand it at all when Maxwell would miss 5 weeks. With time running out on the regular season, Maxwell returned, but was only was a shell of his former self. Max was never the same player after that, IIRC he blamed the fact that he rushed back to play. His absence really killed the team's depth; the only other forwards were Scott Wedman, a shooting specialist who could not be counted on for anything resembling defense, and 34 year old ML Carr, who's main purpose at that point was to wave towels.
When the Celtics played the Hawks in New Orleans, Maxwell was out. The first 2 players off the bench were Wedman (20 minutes) and Williams (15), a reasonable amount given that Williams was still working his way back into game shape at the time. The other players available were Buckner, Carr, Clark, Carlisle, and, of course, Greg Kite. The Celtics won by 11, and were certainly in control most of the game, but it wasn't like KC could take his foot off the gas at any point during the game. And there was no way he was going to sit Bird in the 4th quarter once it became apparent that a record was in sight.
The lack of depth eventually caught up to the 1985 Celtics. Bird (+1.2), McHale (+2.2), Parish (+0.3), Dennis Johnson (+3.9) all played more minutes than they did the prior season (as did Ainge, but he came off the bench in 1983-84). But the chickens really came home to roost in the playoffs: Parish (+0.4), DJ (+3.7), McHale (+9.4) and Wedman (+3.3) all played more playoff minutes, with only Bird playing fewer (-1.0, but still 40.8 mpg). And Bird, DJ, and McHale all averaged over 40 mpg in the Finals against the Lakers, with Parish (37.2) and Ainge (33.8) not far behind. Wedman averaged 17.5, while no other player averaged more than 9 (Maxwell). Meanwhile the Lakers had 7 players average at least 22 minutes (Kareem, Worthy, Magic, Byron Scott, Bob McAdoo, and Kurt Rambis), with Mitch Kupchak throwing in another 14. And no Laker averaged more than Worthy's and Magic's 39.2 minutes.
Maxwell being a non-factor in the Finals led to his acrimonious departure, as Red basically threw him under the bus for the loss, and would send Max packing to the LA Clippers. Of course, the return was one Bill Walton. But that's another story.
EDIT: I personally would give the edge to Tatum's performance. Leading a comeback from being 32 points down, and scoring 31 of those 60 in the 4th quarter and OT with literally zero margin for error, while not turning the ball over once should absolutely go down as one of the most remarkable single-game performances in franchise history.
I agree that it's possible, but it's fucking dumb that a guy who missed more than a quarter of the season would make 1st team. He's good enough (and the competition at the center spot weak enough) that Embiid should for sure make 2nd (or at worst 3rd) team, but the fact that he could make 1st team at a position he doesn't even play in a year when he'll have about 50 games played is awful.Right.
But if they weren't eligible at both spots, the three centers would be locked in as Jokic, Embiid and Rudy, leaving six forward spots open.
I think it's very possible with dual eligibilty, Jokic and Embiid both make first team. That bumps Rudy up as 2nd team center and a third guy, probably Adebayo, that would've had no shot as 3rd team center. Then only five forwards spots are open since they would be giving one to a center in this scenario.
You can add McHale's foot. And drafting Michael Bleepin' Smith over Tim Hardaway.Along with Bird's driveway, Bias, the lack of depth killed that dynasty. I know I defend the past eras, but the 80s Cs had at least two non NBA level guys at all times.
Or just taking one of two local products - Dana Barros or Clifford Robinson.And drafting Michael Bleepin' Smith over Tim Hardaway.
It was also the year the Celtics drafted a future Basketball Hall of Famer in the 2nd round. So I guess it wasn't all badOr just taking one of two local products - Dana Barros or Clifford Robinson.
After Michael Smith was taken, it went Hardaway, Todd Lichti, Dana Barros, Shawn Kemp, and BJ Armstrong. And LAL got Divac.
BTW, that was the Frank Kornet, the original Green Kornet, draft year too.
Hasn’t it also been counter-productive in that guys who have already gotten their second contract either end up with massive, over market contracts from desperate teams (Wall, Westbrook), which makes it nearly impossible to build a competitive team around, or the players realize this and don’t value the extra money, and force their way to their preferred destination. Is there an example of a third contract super max that has worked out for the team that signed the contract?Actually it has turned out to be counterproductive as you see a lot of guys play for counting numbers in their fourth year. The owners should have just bit the bullet and given themselves the ability to designate players from the getgo without respect to their All NBA status.
Those were some awful teams. 2 of those years had Dana Barros for that matter.It was also the year the Celtics drafted a future Basketball Hall of Famer in the 2nd round. So I guess it wasn't all bad
It took me a minute to remember who this HOFer was.It was also the year the Celtics drafted a future Basketball Hall of Famer in the 2nd round. So I guess it wasn't all bad
I think the question should be “How do I build around Tatum and Jaylen Brown?”Good list, as it shows why the only question Danny should be asking going forward is "How do I build a contending team around Tatum?".
It's an all new category--single game play-in game scoring record!!!!Oddly, Tatum's 50 yesterday came in a game that is considered neither a playoff game nor a regular season game.
Well, he's about to get a big, big stage for that comparison.At some point in the next 4-5 years JT is gonna be better than Durant. Might as well be pro-active and start now?