Tatum for Davis Poll

Would you include Tatum in Davis trade?

  • Yes - Assuming he agreed to an extension

    Votes: 160 62.5%
  • Yes - Not conditioned on extension ( Kawhi deal)

    Votes: 30 11.7%
  • No - under no circumstances should Tatum be traded

    Votes: 49 19.1%
  • No - I don’t think the Celtics should trade for Davis

    Votes: 17 6.6%

  • Total voters
    256

Big John

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Brown's offensive game has sizzle. He's exciting, fun to watch. Plus he defends. He's a starter on virtually any team in the league except Boston and Golden State. I would have no problem starting JB and bringing Morris off the bench, which may happen soon anyway.
 

TripleOT

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If Brown was on Phoenix instead of Booker, I could see him putting up similar numbers, while also playing good defense. There haven't been a lot of recent examples of top three picks on playoff teams, so of course the big numbers wouldn't be there on a stocked roster and only nine or ten shots a game.

Jaylen has shown that be could thrive in the playoffs, Here's how I value the Celtics and Laker trade assets

Tatum (by a wide margin - he will be a 10 time all star and possible MVP)

Ingram and Brown. Ingram has more size. Brown shoots the long ball better. Both can be plus defenders at multiple positions.

Ball. Probably on the same level as Brown and Ingram, but the family stuff and his posture that be must play in LA devalues him.

Kuzma. Solid numbers, but older than these four and not tough to replace.
 

moondog80

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If Brown was on Phoenix instead of Booker, I could see him putting up similar numbers, while also playing good defense. There haven't been a lot of recent examples of top three picks on playoff teams, so of course the big numbers wouldn't be there on a stocked roster and only nine or ten shots a game.
I'm not down on Jaylen, but Devin Booker is averaging 24.8 points and 6.7 assists while shooting 46% from the field. The only team Jaylen does that for is BC High.
 

nighthob

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Here's how I value the Celtics and Laker trade assets

Tatum (by a wide margin - he will be a 10 time all star and possible MVP)

Ingram and Brown. Ingram has more size. Brown shoots the long ball better. Both can be plus defenders at multiple positions.

Ball. Probably on the same level as Brown and Ingram, but the family stuff and his posture that be must play in LA devalues him.
Ingram has more length than Brown, but JB has more size/athleticism. There's also the matter of the space between their ears. Ingram's not shown any inclination to play defense and gets even worse when things aren't going his way. I'd put Ball above him as a prospect, even though I don't think Ball's upside is all that great. Brown is better than both now, and thanks to the size/athleticism combination, has a lot more upside.
 

bosox79

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I'm not down on Jaylen, but Devin Booker is averaging 24.8 points and 6.7 assists while shooting 46% from the field. The only team Jaylen does that for is BC High.
I could see him scoring 20+, but he's not a play maker.
 

Jimbodandy

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I could see him scoring 20+, but he's not a play maker.
I'm the biggest JB fan there is, and he's not the shot creator that Booker is. They both do things that the other doesn't of course. Booker's BBIQ is still far higher as well.

Not a huge Booker fan, but no way Jaylen touches his box store stats at this stage of hia career.

I think that you can make an argument that Booker is close to his ceiling now and that Brown clearly isn't, but that's a different conversation.
 

LondonSox

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If you would be a starter on most NBA teams, you aren't a "borderline starter".
Ok fine but we are splitting hairs.
He would start on many teams and not on others, so borderline starter doesn't seem worth getting upset about.

Ok then, a guy would wouldn't start for a few teams isn't going to headline an AD trade. Is that better?

I mean look at what Lakers are saying
Ball, kuzma, Ingram, zu and 2 firsts. If brown is going to be the best asset you got to add a lot of different ones and that's assuming NO wants the poo poo platter of 5 maybes.
 

BigSoxFan

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Ok fine but we are splitting hairs.
He would start on many teams and not on others, so borderline starter doesn't seem worth getting upset about.

Ok then, a guy would wouldn't start for a few teams isn't going to headline an AD trade. Is that better?

I mean look at what Lakers are saying
Ball, kuzma, Ingram, zu and 2 firsts. If brown is going to be the best asset you got to add a lot of different ones and that's assuming NO wants the poo poo platter of 5 maybes.
I’m actually in agreement with you. If AD comes to Boston, I think it’s almost certain that Tatum is going the other way unless a SAC lotto miracle happens. I think Brown is as good or better than anyone the Lakers have to offer but that’s just my evaluation. It’s definitely not clear cut.
 

LondonSox

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I’m actually in agreement with you. If AD comes to Boston, I think it’s almost certain that Tatum is going the other way unless a SAC lotto miracle happens. I think Brown is as good or better than anyone the Lakers have to offer but that’s just my evaluation. It’s definitely not clear cut.
I think Tatum is the guy no one can compete with. Trump card. If he won't stay though I'd probably do a brown package as best offer.
 

benhogan

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I think Tatum is the guy no one can compete with. Trump card. If he won't stay though I'd probably do a brown package as best offer.
I voted under no consideration, don't deal Tatum.

BUT if the Lakers tie up all their cap space for multiple years this off-season, AND if Danny has to include Tatum, I'd like him to keep both Brown and Smart.
 

lovegtm

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I voted under no consideration, don't deal Tatum.

BUT if the Lakers tie up all their cap space for multiple years this off-season, AND if Danny has to include Tatum, I'd like him to keep both Brown and Smart.
Yup, with Tatum gone, wing minutes would suddenly become valuable when Morris leaves.

Piecing together reports, it seems Danny is telling NO right now that Tatum is 100% on the table, and that no player is untouchable, while being a bit non-committal as to which picks and filler go with that. That's probably the best way to walk the line between maintaining your reputation, but not giving away the farm when the negotiations start.

I also predict the team doesn't deal Smart. His performance to contract ratio is simply too valuable as the team gets expensive. The motherfucker is 5th (!!) in RPM among PGs now, and the other metrics and eye test back that up. He also complements Kyrie perfectly.
 

Boston Brawler

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With the deadline passing, is it now a foregone conclusion that Tatum is the centerpiece and will go?
 

Red Averages

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That's the most probable. The minority scenario seems to be that the Celtics may not have to give up Tatum, if:
- Davis still sticks to his stance of walking in FA and refusing to sign with Bos
- NY Knicks don't get the #1 pick, ideally it is #3 or later.
- Lakers offer remains weak, or if they decreased it because they are confident they will get Davis as a FA.
- No other team seriously makes a bid attempt.

If that's the case, maybe a package of Brown, Rozier, MLE signing, MEM + SAC + LAC + BOS draft picks gets it done. Or maybe it is Tatum, Rozier, MLE signing + SAC with Brown/Smart/Mem staying. That's also a great outcome. Either way, the Celtics are likely to come out of this very well.
 

cheech13

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Theoretically an offer of Brown, Smart, all three of the Memphis, SAC and LAC picks and a couple of future unprotected Boston picks gets you in the conversation. That's comparable in total value to the Lakers offer, but why mess around? The Knicks and the Clippers can probably beat that deal and if the Pelicans thought they waited for Tatum and he gets pulled off the table they may get pissed and look elsewhere. If Tatum is in the offer on July 1 then it's just haggling over the picks and players at that point. No need to get cute.
 

lovegtm

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Theoretically an offer of Brown, Smart, all three of the Memphis, SAC and LAC picks and a couple of future unprotected Boston picks gets you in the conversation. That's comparable in total value to the Lakers offer, but why mess around? The Knicks and the Clippers can probably beat that deal and if the Pelicans thought they waited for Tatum and he gets pulled off the table they may get pissed and look elsewhere. If Tatum is in the offer on July 1 then it's just haggling over the picks and players at that point. No need to get cute.
Tatum will also be making almost $30M annually on his next contract, for a skillset that's a bit redundant on an AD/Kyrie team. There's an argument that Smart will be a better fit, even leaving out price.
 

DeadlySplitter

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I voted no originally in this poll. I can be convinced yes with an extension. I think Tatum alone for one year of AD, then him bolting, would be a massive mistake.
 

djbayko

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I voted no originally in this poll. I can be convinced yes with an extension. I think Tatum alone for one year of AD, then him bolting, would be a massive mistake.
We obviously don’t know anything for sure, but I have to imagine Danny realizes that would be a huge mistake also. He’s done so right by us fans so far that if he ends up sending Tatum for AD, then I trust he’s talked to the right people and done the calculus necessary to feel like it’s worthwhile move...whatever that entails. Of course, I’d rather acquire AD somehow while holding onto Tatum. I don’t see how anyone can disagree with that. Even if you think Tatum would be redundant in that system, he’s an extremely valuable piece.
 

luqin

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I am not a fan of the “trade for AD and hope you can convince him to stay even though his people have said he will not re-sign in Boston” plan. I think the real nightmare scenario is trading Tatum+ for AD, Kyrie agreeing to a 1-year contract, then both of them leaving in 2020 and being left with nothing.
 

lovegtm

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I am not a fan of the “trade for AD and hope you can convince him to stay even though his people have said he will not re-sign in Boston” plan. I think the real nightmare scenario is trading Tatum+ for AD, Kyrie agreeing to a 1-year contract, then both of them leaving in 2020 and being left with nothing.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, the Celtics will know how long a contract Kyrie is signing before finalizing an AD trade.
 

InstaFace

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We obviously don’t know anything for sure, but I have to imagine Danny realizes that would be a huge mistake also. He’s done so right by us fans so far that if he ends up sending Tatum for AD, then I trust he’s talked to the right people and done the calculus necessary to feel like it’s worthwhile move...whatever that entails. Of course, I’d rather acquire AD somehow while holding onto Tatum. I don’t see how anyone can disagree with that. Even if you think Tatum would be redundant in that system, he’s an extremely valuable piece.
The last 6 years of Trader Danny have been a whirlwind of opportunity, entirely his own creation: via exploiting NBA market inefficiencies, being the most decent person possible in a cutthroat backstabbing job role (thereby earning a positive reputation for his team that has created a gravity and aura around it), and finding the right coach who echoes those values, minus the backstabbing. I'm with you: if he decides to ride-or-die on Davis re-signing and spins that wheel, (A) I'll have to trust him that that's the only way we're getting another banner, and (B) he's earned the right to spin that wheel.

That said, I'd rather go to a total rump roster and negative draft assets while keeping Tatum. I'm not sure the Lakers can top an offer of "kitchen sink sans Tatum", and the other prime competition, e.g. Toronto or the Knicks, may be out of the running by that point depending on what happens. We just have to have the best offer on the table, and the uncertainty of Davis re-signing is probably enough to save face in that regard.
 

Bad Penny

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"The time to buy is when there is blood in the streets".

Looking at the Brandon Ingram health issue in an objective fashion leads me to ponder if there is any chance of keeping Tatum out of the AD trade. Even if Ingram recovers 100% by this summer he is damaged goods. Luck is always a factor in a business transaction, and the Lakers just got dealt a losing hand. DRA is, as a famous man once said, the luckiest guy I know.
 

Montana Fan

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"The time to buy is when there is blood in the streets".

Looking at the Brandon Ingram health issue in an objective fashion leads me to ponder if there is any chance of keeping Tatum out of the AD trade. Even if Ingram recovers 100% by this summer he is damaged goods. Luck is always a factor in a business transaction, and the Lakers just got dealt a losing hand. DRA is, as a famous man once said, the luckiest guy I know.
Brian Robb at Boston Sports Journal posits this same question in a recent article. Here's the trade comparison for discussion. My opinion is that the Celt's offer is too much without an assurance that Davis will sign a deal with them and may be too much even if he agrees to sign. If you're going to turn the team over, what else could be done with those assets? PS - BSJ is worth it for Robb and McAdam alone, if you're thinking about subscribing.

Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Robert Williams
No. 14 pick (SAC)
No. 19 pick (LAC)
No. 23 pick (Celtics)
Memphis pick (Top-6 protected in 2020, unprotected in 2021)
A future unprotected Celtics first round pick

Would that offer best this Lakers offer (essentially the best they can come up with?

Brandon Ingram
Kyle Kuzma
Lonzo Ball
Josh Hart
No. 10 pick
Three future unprotected first round picks
 

Devizier

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That's all well and good but people are presuming that there won't be other teams in the mix and I think that's a mistaken assumption.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Brian Robb at Boston Sports Journal posits this same question in a recent article. Here's the trade comparison for discussion. My opinion is that the Celt's offer is too much without an assurance that Davis will sign a deal with them and may be too much even if he agrees to sign. If you're going to turn the team over, what else could be done with those assets? PS - BSJ is worth it for Robb and McAdam alone, if you're thinking about subscribing.

Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Robert Williams
No. 14 pick (SAC)
No. 19 pick (LAC)
No. 23 pick (Celtics)
Memphis pick (Top-6 protected in 2020, unprotected in 2021)
A future unprotected Celtics first round pick


Would that offer best this Lakers offer (essentially the best they can come up with?

Brandon Ingram
Kyle Kuzma
Lonzo Ball
Josh Hart
No. 10 pick
Three future unprotected first round picks
It would be great if the Celtics could trade for Davis without including Tatum but Ferry and the Pelicans are almost certainly going to require him as part of return. Ainge can say no but I would bet that New Orleans will look elsewhere. It seems strange but people bargain not just on absolute return but also what they covet from the other party. Anyone engaging the Celtics for a trade of star players is going to ask for and expect a package that starts with Tatum. In addition, as Devizier notes, there will be other suitors too.
 

TripleOT

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What if Hayward shows all star form the rest of the season and in the playoffs? Could a package of Brown, Hayward, the three draftees this season, the unprotected MEM pick, and a future Celtiics pick top any other package out there. Ingram is potentially damaged goods, and he's at arguably Brown's level as an asset. Good Hayward is all star level, and adding two very good wings to a core of Holiday and Randle, plus all those rookies, is a Pels roster that can win some games as well as build for the future.

With a high level Hayward, it's a better package than the Lakers. If AD decides he wants Boston long term, how is another team going to justify burning through a package of assets to match Boston's for a one year rental?
 

the moops

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Jaylen Brown
Marcus Smart
Robert Williams
No. 14 pick (SAC)
No. 19 pick (LAC)
No. 23 pick (Celtics)
Memphis pick (Top-6 protected in 2020, unprotected in 2021)
A future unprotected Celtics first round pick
This is crazy talk. I can't imagine Ainge giving up anywhere near that much for a guy who is only signed for one more year.
 

lovegtm

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This is crazy talk. I can't imagine Ainge giving up anywhere near that much for a guy who is only signed for one more year.
Yup, that’s a hilarious overpay, even for AD, especially when you consider what other teams have to offer.

Why do writers still act like Smart is a throwaway in these deals? He’s only 25, seems to be for real from 3, and is signed well below market for 3 more years. He also is probably more valuable to a Kyrie/AD/Gordon team than Tatum, given his particular set of skills. I don’t think there’s any way he gets moved: New Orleans won’t insist on him, and the Celtics will do what it takes to keep him.
 

ZMart100

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Yup, that’s a hilarious overpay, even for AD, especially when you consider what other teams have to offer.

Why do writers still act like Smart is a throwaway in these deals? He’s only 25, seems to be for real from 3, and is signed well below market for 3 more years. He also is probably more valuable to a Kyrie/AD/Gordon team than Tatum, given his particular set of skills. I don’t think there’s any way he gets moved: New Orleans won’t insist on him, and the Celtics will do what it takes to keep him.
I like him and would prefer to keep him, but the Celtics have to get the matching salaries from somewhere for the trade. Smart is the obvious pick. Ainge may be able to do something with sign and trades, but that takes cooperation from the players and teams that want them.
 

nighthob

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They would need Smart for a draft night deal, which they literally can’t do. There will be more options come summer.
 

lovegtm

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If you can’t get anyone to sign for a S&T, I think the Celtics would trade Brown before Smart. Brown has way higher value to the Pelicans than he does to an Ad/Kyrie/Gordon team, and he’s also about to get paid, which is fine for the Pelicans (paying both Brown and Tatum and pairing them with Randle+Holiday gives you a clear path to relevance, with high upside).

Tatum+Brown+Yabu works for money I think, and that’s such a strong offer that you can probably avoid giving NO any picks, which is really valuable as the team gets expensive.

Not saying this will happen, but that’s likely the kind of thing they’d do before moving Smart as salary fodder.
 

bowiac

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It would be great if the Celtics could trade for Davis without including Tatum but Ferry and the Pelicans are almost certainly going to require him as part of return. Ainge can say no but I would bet that New Orleans will look elsewhere. It seems strange but people bargain not just on absolute return but also what they covet from the other party. Anyone engaging the Celtics for a trade of star players is going to ask for and expect a package that starts with Tatum. In addition, as Devizier notes, there will be other suitors too.
This raises a good point. Even if you pressupose that the non-Tatum package is clearly better than any other package, New Orleans may just refuse to deal with Boston without Tatum being involved. Teams behave "irrationally", and there's nothing you can really do about it.
 

BigMike

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This raises a good point. Even if you pressupose that the non-Tatum package is clearly better than any other package, New Orleans may just refuse to deal with Boston without Tatum being involved. Teams behave "irrationally", and there's nothing you can really do about it.
Especially if New Orleans believes the Celtics "promised" them that Tatum would be available if they waited until summer to make the trade.
 

nighthob

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This raises a good point. Even if you pressupose that the non-Tatum package is clearly better than any other package, New Orleans may just refuse to deal with Boston without Tatum being involved. Teams behave "irrationally", and there's nothing you can really do about it.
Not wanting any part of the circus I’m hoping that Ferry does cut off his nose to spite his face.

Especially if New Orleans believes the Celtics "promised" them that Tatum would be available if they waited until summer to make the trade.
They should be grateful that they didn’t deal Davis for damaged goods.
 

lovegtm

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It’s odd to me that everyone asks it as if the question is “do you give up Tatum?” The question should be “can you avoid giving up anything else if you give up Tatum?”

Tatum+filler for AD straight up is an awesome trade for the Celtics as long as Kyrie re-signs.
 

nighthob

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But a horrifyingly bad one if his agents cause so much chaos that he walks at the end of the year.
 

lovegtm

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But a horrifyingly bad one if his agents cause so much chaos that he walks at the end of the year.
This is another reason this postseason is big for the Cs. If Kyrie can right the ship, get everyone refocused, and make a deep playoff run, I think that will give them a degree of know-how and "immunity" in terms of handling Klutch antics in the future.
 

the moops

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It will be interesting to see how creative Ainge needs to be to make this work, assuming that he in fact doesn't do a ridiculous deal like Brown/Tatum/Smart + picks for AD.

Brown + Yabusele + some combination of sign and traded Morris/Theis/Rozier is difficult because of BYC issues. Need to sign two or more of those guys for at least 24 million for salary matching purposes. If Tatum is included instead of Brown, you only need 21.5 million.

Adding Smart in there makes the money and logistics way easier for you don't need any sign and trade gymnastics. Brown + Smart + Yabu + pick (s) works. Tatum + Smart + pick(s) works.
 

nighthob

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This is another reason this postseason is big for the Cs. If Kyrie can right the ship, get everyone refocused, and make a deep playoff run, I think that will give them a degree of know-how and "immunity" in terms of handling Klutch antics in the future.
The only "immunity" is Davis firing LeBron as his agent, which won't happen. Until then multiply the chaos of the trade deadline a thousandfold. That's what Davis' next team is in for, unless it's the Lakers. Let LA have him. I'll take the Horford/Irving/Durant Celtics 12 times out of ten.
 

lovegtm

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It will be interesting to see how creative Ainge needs to be to make this work, assuming that he in fact doesn't do a ridiculous deal like Brown/Tatum/Smart + picks for AD.

Brown + Yabusele + some combination of sign and traded Morris/Theis/Rozier is difficult because of BYC issues. Need to sign two or more of those guys for at least 24 million for salary matching purposes. If Tatum is included instead of Brown, you only need 21.5 million.

Adding Smart in there makes the money and logistics way easier for you don't need any sign and trade gymnastics. Brown + Smart + Yabu + pick (s) works. Tatum + Smart + pick(s) works.
Would you rather have Brown or Smart on an AD team, given contract situation and fit? (Not a rhetorical question; I don't think the answer is obvious.)
 

lovegtm

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I suppose the other creative option is to trade Brown for an expiring around $10M+pick(s), and then keep the picks and move the expiring along with Tatum.
 

lovegtm

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The only "immunity" is Davis firing LeBron as his agent, which won't happen. Until then multiply the chaos of the trade deadline a thousandfold. That's what Davis' next team is in for, unless it's the Lakers. Let LA have him. I'll take the Horford/Irving/Durant Celtics 12 times out of ten.
I mean...now that the Ingram thing happened, LA has basically zero shot at AD this summer.

Is Durant over AD that obvious? Durant will be 31 next year, and so you'd be shortening your window drastically.
 

InstaFace

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I think Durant is the best basketball player on the planet (and he agrees with me), so yes. His present level is above Tatum's even optimistic ceilings. We'd obviously have to trade Hayward for him in a S&T given the cap situation, which would suck for many involved, but I value Durant at or above Davis all else equal, and it wouldn't be equal here - Durant would be signing for multiple years, whereas AD, of course, comes with substantial flight risk.
 

nighthob

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I mean...now that the Ingram thing happened, LA has basically zero shot at AD this summer.
I'm rooting for them to win the Zion sweepstakes for just that reason. So that they can trade everything they have for Davis.

Is Durant over AD that obvious? Durant will be 31 next year, and so you'd be shortening your window drastically.
You have 4 years with Irving and Durant, and then you build your next team around Tatum, the Memphis pick, and whataver you converted Jaylen Brown into. With Irving and Davis you get one guaranteed year, with guaranteed chaos, and the prospect of rebuilding around Irving, Hayward, and whatever free gents you can lure as you've emptied the cupboard.

Even in the best case scenario you get the same four years, followed by a teardown as you have nothing to rebuild around as you cashed it in for Davis. So, yeah, Durant's better.
 

DrewDawg

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Especially if New Orleans believes the Celtics "promised" them that Tatum would be available if they waited until summer to make the trade.
Sure, but it'll be a game of chicken if Ainge responds "Tatum could be available, but the offer with Brown is better than any other offer you've received..." would they really take a lesser offer just to spite?

It should be interesting.
 

lovegtm

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Sure, but it'll be a game of chicken if Ainge responds "Tatum could be available, but the offer with Brown is better than any other offer you've received..." would they really take a lesser offer just to spite?

It should be interesting.
Very, very possible that they would. These aren't one-off games; they're iterative, and building a certain reputation has value over time, particularly for an executive like Ferry, who has a decently long track record, and will likely be in the league awhile. Also, I hear that the humanoids have emotions.
 

DrewDawg

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Very, very possible that they would. These aren't one-off games; they're iterative, and building a certain reputation has value over time, particularly for an executive like Ferry, who has a decently long track record, and will likely be in the league awhile. Also, I hear that the humanoids have emotions.
Is taking a lesser offer a good way to showcase yourself to potential future employers?
 

Jimbodandy

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Is taking a lesser offer a good way to showcase yourself to potential future employers?
It's a fair question. But there's something to be said for the imprecision that comes with people's subjective views on players.

"Not getting Tatum from Boston" could be perceived as a failure, even if the Boston offer is perhaps still better than what team X offers. That's stupid, but it could be true.

Getting the best available piece is still the goal in the NBA. Tatum might be the best available piece.

All of this is wild speculation. The NOP management team has changed, and we never really knew jack shit about the substance of the conversations anyway.
 

nighthob

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Jul 15, 2005
7,475
Yeah, Ferry is going to have his own agenda, namely turning a team around in the right direction (for a change). If he does want another GM/DBO job after this he's going to have to successfully rebuild the Pelicans. So he really needs to be maximising his talent return whatever that return ends up being. If he elects to cut off his nose to spite his face, he should probably start getting ready to transition to a career in the scouting/development end of the business.