Sox get Kimbrel

Quintanariffic

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Amen brother
Right - because it's a binary proposition like that.

You know what I'd like? I'd like to get an elite closer for the right price in prospects and then use the prospects you didn't need to throw into that deal to acquire players who fill other needs. By your logic, we should just trade every prospect for Kimbrel b/c no price is too much, right?

Will the ML club be better with Kimbrel? No doubt. I hope this thread isn't turning into another idiot-fest featuring everyone's strawmen. The judgment on this trade can be this will both improve the club near-term while still representing a massive overpay when all is said and done.

Not liking the DD era now that the honeymoon period is over.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Yea, aside from being a bad trade in value terms, this makes the offseason very difficult. They are probably down to, at the absolute most, 30 million in spending money. And the only trade chips left are insanely painful.
They are still sitting on Moncada, Devers, Benintendi and Espinoza in the minors, Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, Rodriguez, Owens and JBJ in the majors and a bunch of other tradable prospects like Travis, Kopech, Marrero, Johnson, Chavis, Rijo and Longhi among others. They've dealt two redundant prospects. They were valuable, but less so to a team with an outfield of Betts, JBJ and Castillo (not to mention Benintendi in the wings) and Bogaerts showing he's got the glove to handle short. Using surplus to plug holes is good roster management. Kimbrel was costly. The price is certainly enough to sting. But it's not a bad value swap once unless you chronically overvalue prospects.

They'll make a strong effort to sign sign Price. If they can't, or the bidding moves out of the range they are comfortable with, they'll either have to move on to Cueto, give up their first round pick to sign someone like Greinke or head back to the trade market. If they have to do the latter of those options, I'm guessing Devers is who they will build around. I'd rather not move him, but you can build a package for a top flight starter with him and someone like Owens and still leave the Sox with a ton of young, controllable talent to move forward with.

They were never going to keep all of these prospects. Bringing back one of the best relievers in the sport is a good use of some of the redundant ones, especially when you consider that we have no way to know (and no reason to assume) that Margot and Guerra were ever going to be enough to bring back a top flight starter in the first place. I'm guessing if they could have gotten a Carrassco or someone similar for that package, they would have. A top flight starter, especially this early in the off season, isn't going to go without a Devers level player leaving Boston.
 

BaseballJones

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Huge haul to give up. But let's not kid ourselves: the major league roster just got a LOT better. Leaps and bounds better.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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You know what I'd like? I'd like to get an elite closer for the right price in prospects and then use the prospects you didn't need to throw into that deal to acquire players who fill other needs. By your logic, we should just trade every prospect for Kimbrel b/c no price is too much, right?

Will the ML club be better with Kimbrel? No doubt. I hope this thread isn't turning into another idiot-fest featuring everyone's strawmen. The judgment on this trade can be this will both improve the club near-term while still representing a massive overpay when all is said and done.
Amen brother.
 

chrisfont9

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Assuming that he'll maintain a career like Mariano is a wish; it may certainly come true, but no one has any way of knowing.

This is just plain disengenous. Miller's three year ERA/FIP/xFIP is 2.09/2.08/1.94, Kimbrel's is 1.77/2.13/2.20.
At this point, they have basically performed at the same level of performance in a decent/recent sample size.
When did I say he'd maintain a career like Rivera's? We have him for three years, not 13. And disingenuous? I am deliberately trying to deceive people? Miller's best ERA+ is 198. Kimbrel is coming off three years from 228-399 prior to 2015, when, as discussed above, he got off to a poor start (BABIP fueled) and was dominant from June onward. You can disagree with my reading of the stats but I don't know why you're questioning my motives.
 

nvalvo

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via Brimac:

Dombrowski: "This is probably our major acquisition of this winter as far as the trade market is concerned."

BRING ME CUETO.
 

OCD SS

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Andersen, Slocumb, ... Kimbrel?

Allen is the kicker for me. The other 3 were never going to play in Boston, and if this is the market I'm OK with this and just flushing, er spending a huge pile of extra $ to get a SP (Price) rather than trying to trade for an ace. But I don't want to add promising pitching prospects to the pile; the Sox will need those down the line.

My guess is that while big contracts for SPers don't make great business sense for your team finances, they make better sense when your overall business includes your own RSN with tanking ratings.
 

mauf

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I think some of the hand-wringing here is overblown. I don't know what else DD may have been able to get out of this collection of prospects, but I'll guess it's not a frontline SP. I expect he's evaluated the markets for the Cleveland and Mets studs, and for Sale, and if any of those guys can be had, losing the pieces here won't take the Sox out of the picture.

As a lover of young talent, I'll even take this as good news... I think it's now LESS likely JBJ, Betts, Devers or Benintendi without a legit top flight young starter coming back.
This is where I'm at, except I really don't like trading valuable assets for a reliever. If these are the chips you want to trade, and they aren't enough to fetch a big piece, staple them to one of the bad contracts.

By the way, I don't think you can know that Margot or Guerra won't be the key piece in a deal for a front-line SP or middle-of-the-order bat (not the centerpiece, but a necessary component) so I interpret this deal as DD believing such a trade is unlikely -- which, again, supports your view that the other young guys are likely staying (though I think JBJ goes in a smaller deal).
 

nvalvo

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These guys and, say, Swihart is probably a package for a good starter — not Gray or Sale, but probably Carrasco or Quintana.

I guess they really like Swihart, then.
 

yecul

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Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 1m1 minute ago
DD says Sox have depth at CF/SS, made it more palatable, especially given that Sox didn't sacrifice anything at big league level.
To those saying its not a big deal or you have to be a prospect humper to think its a steep price... DD just said it was a lot to give.

DD is focused on short term improvement. This doesnt mean he will fuck the future necessarily, but overpaying in this manner does not compromise his goals and by the time that kind of thing is relevant hes probably long gone.

They got a good player but paid a lot for it. That may be ok with you or it may not, but the facts are the same either way. The pitcher they got is elite, so it was not an overpay for shit which is nice.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Andersen, Slocumb, ... Kimbrel?

Allen is the kicker for me. The other 3 were never going to play in Boston, and if this is the market I'm OK with this and just flushing, er spending a huge pile of extra $ to get a SP (Price) rather than trying to trade for an ace. But I don't want to add promising pitching prospects to the pile; the Sox will need those down the line.

My guess is that while big contracts for SPers don't make great business sense for your team finances, they make better sense when your overall business includes your own RSN with tanking ratings.
Allen is a pitcher in low A.
 

Pilgrim

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How do you know they only have 30 million left? Henry could be telling them they have an increased budget to spend from. Let's let the offseason play out.
well, I do think 30 million is an optimistic number. Based on my reading of their likely arbitration commitments that would break the 200 million barrier. Maybe Henry is willing to go up to 210 or 220, though.

On the other hand, most of their improvable spots have trade value. They could ditch Kelly (4m) Miley (7) or Castillo (10) if they find improvements on those roster spots. But I do think salary is an issue now.
 

g0wave

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Hard to swallow this trade but trying to trust talent evaluation. Seems like overpaying for O'Day would have made more sense. Here we overpay significantly in prospects and are taking a big salary commitment along with it.... At least we have 3 years of control.

I'm a big fan of Kimbrell, having watched him in Atlanta, but I'd be completely lying if I didn't admit this trade scares the crap out of me. Both the overpay in terms of prospects and the precedent it sets. This will improve the Major league roster, Uehara won't be here forever, but dang all 4 of those guys? Ugh.... time for another drink. We will have a better product on the field next year. Just hope it's worth it.

Glad we didn't sell the farm for 1 year of Chapman.
 

E5 Yaz

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Remember the good old days when people were upset the Sox traded Casey Kelly?
 

Pilgrim

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Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 11m11 minutes ago
DD says that 'most likely, any acquisition we make in starting pitching would first happen in the free agent field.'

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier 13m13 minutes ago
Dombrowski says that he expects Kimbrel is the Sox' major trade acquisition of the offseason.

This sounds like Zimmermann or Cueto IMO. Either one is decent, but if they can grab Price this would be a pretty solid team. Was hoping they could find two starters, though.
 

Rough Carrigan

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The guys who know the farm think it's an overpay. Okay. You don't like this deal. I get it. But why go from there to complete pessimism about any future Dombrowski trades? They looked at his trading record at Grantland and it was extremely positive over a long period of time and not just based on a few big wins. He won't always come out the winner in every trade but he's got a long track record that merits some respect.
http://grantland.com/features/dave-dombrowski-detroit-tigers/
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Jeff Passan ‏@JeffPassan 2m2 minutes ago
The idea this trade is good because Margot and Guerra are "blocked" is absurd. Can trade "blocked" guys for anyone. Chose a one-inning guy.
"One-inning guy" is meaningless. "60-inning guy" is more to the point. And yeah, if you look at it that way, Kimbrel's value is basically a third of a Chris Sale's. So, would Sale have cost 3X this package? Probably not; probably more like 2X, and he's a better deal in salary terms as well. So it's certainly an overpay in strict value. How much of a problem this is depends on how much you buy into the importance of high-leverage innings. Evidently DD is a believer. I guess we'll see how that goes.
 

moondog80

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Remember the good old days when people were upset the Sox traded Casey Kelly?
Reminding me that we gave up a similar package for Adrian Gonzalez doesn't make me feel better about this.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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What I can't understand most in all this, is the idea that Guerra was somehow "blocked" by Bogaerts.

Although those guys are only a few years apart in age, Guerra would still only be entering his age-24 season when Bogaerts hits free agency, with another three levels still to master below MLB.

And of course, because he's a Boras client, Bogaerts will no doubt hit free agency.

And then to add on Margot...and pick up Kimbrell's entire tab...well, I guess the good news is the Sox now have some serious leeway to easing Koji and Taz back.

And it's nice to hear that DDski plans to approach acquiring the major additional pieces the Sox need in free agency.

I hope they don't stop with Kimbrel, but pick up 1-2 more viable pen options.
 

iayork

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Remember the good old days when people were upset the Sox traded Casey Kelly?
Ranked 24-best prospect in baseball by Baseball America, which coincidentally is where Margot was ranked this year.
 

kazuneko

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via Brimac:
Dombrowski: "This is probably our major acquisition of this winter as far as the trade market is concerned."
Would have seemingly made more sense to trade for a starter and sign a free agent reliever, but at least this it looks like DD isn't getting rid of any more prospects..
 

Adrian's Dome

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"One-inning guy" is meaningless. "60-inning guy" is more to the point. And yeah, if you look at it that way, Kimbrel's value is basically a third of a Chris Sale's. So, would Sale have cost 3X this package? Probably not; probably more like 2X, if that. So it's certainly an overpay in strict value terms. How much of a problem this is depends on how much you buy into the importance of high-leverage innings. Evidently DD is a believer. I guess we'll see how that goes.
But it's not just improving the 9th inning in a vacuum, it's improving the depth of the entire bullpen, plus alleviating the question mark around Koji's injury.

Kimbrel is a 60-inning guy yes, but his acquisition could positively impact 200+ innings pitched by the entire bullpen via lower stress, lower usage, and improved matchups.
 

soxhop411

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Would have seemingly made more sense to trade for a starter and sign a free agent reliever, but at least this it looks like DD isn't getting rid of any more prospects..

I would think the starters the sox wanted to trade for were not available. Or we would have had to completely gut the farm to get them.
 

JBJ_HOF

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Would have seemingly made more sense to trade for a starter and sign a free agent reliever, but at least this it looks like DD isn't getting rid of any more prospects..
Would have seemingly cost Espinoza, Devers and Benintendi to trade for a SP.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Would have seemingly made more sense to trade for a starter and sign a free agent reliever, but at least this it looks like DD isn't getting rid of any more prospects..
You are assuming that a similar package could have accomplished this. We have no reason to believe that the cost for a front of the rotation starter would be anything similar. So lamenting that these guys went for a reliever instead seems a waste of energy.

The guys who know the farm think it's an overpay. Okay. You don't like this deal. I get it. But why go from there to complete pessimism about any future Dombrowski trades? They looked at his trading record at Grantland and it was extremely positive over a long period of time and not just based on a few big wins. He won't always come out the winner in every trade but he's got a long track record that merits some respect.
http://grantland.com/features/dave-dombrowski-detroit-tigers/
We should also get away from looking at trades as binary win/lose propositions. Sure, they turn out that way a lot, but negotiations aren't ever going to be two GM's trying to screw each other over. Each team gives up value to get value. Sometimes that leads to trades where both teams get what they want (Sox/Marlins after the 2005 season) and sometimes it leads to one team looking bad and the other quite good (Tigers/Marlins in the Miguel Cabrera trade).

The Sox gave up some substantial value to get some substantial value back. They might win the trade. They might lose it. Both teams might end up happy in 5 years. However it turns out, both Dombrowski and Preller almost assuredly negotiated in good faith and feel a fair deal was made.
 
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Seels

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I felt like Margot was the most overrated prospect in some time around here and Sox Prospects. I have no idea why people think he's an elite prospect. Kimbrel is a proving comodity at a position of need and I'd be shocked if more than 1 of these guys even made a major league roster. The overreaction in this thread is over the top. I'll be upset too when we trade one of the elite young talents we have in an overbuy, but this is trading two guys who have little to no shot at making the majors and another two who would be buried in depth if they did.

Granted I'll be pissed if they do something like trade Moncada and Espinoza for pennies...but this wasn't that.
 

EricFeczko

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When did I say he'd maintain a career like Rivera's? We have him for three years, not 13. And disingenuous? I am deliberately trying to deceive people? Miller's best ERA+ is 198. Kimbrel is coming off three years from 228-399 prior to 2015, when, as discussed above, he got off to a poor start (BABIP fueled) and was dominant from June onward. You can disagree with my reading of the stats but I don't know why you're questioning my motives.
I apologize for my poor word choice, I didn't mean to imply that you had hidden motives; merely that the statement itself is disingenuous. The stats you've painted so far are misleading for several reasons.
1) ERA+ is problematic because the relationship between ERA+ and actual ERA is skewed as ERA trends towards zero, because ERA+ trends towards infinity. These big numbers may seem daunting but are not very different from one another. For example, the difference between an ERA+ of 228 and 198 is 0.29 in ERA. Over 40-60 innings, this amounts to 1-2 runs which is smaller than year to year variation. The 200 point difference in ERA+ is 0.9 in ERA. Over 40-60 innings, you're talking about 3-6 runs, which is slightly larger than year to year variation. This may seem like a big difference here, but we've got an SSS problem.

2) ERA is not very stable at 40-60 innings, regardless of how one evaluates the amount error in the measure (e.g. via correlation, or resampling approaches like bootstrapping). Although the observed values certainly differ between miller and kimbrel, that difference is more likely to be much smaller if we played out the same season 100 times over; in fact, in many of those 100 seasons, miller will probably have the better ERA. This isn't to say that miller is better than kimbrel, but rather that 40-60 innings is a noisy sample. Peripherals are probably better indicators if one relies on single season reliever data, but 40-60 innings is pretty small even for that.

3) Ignoring 2015 is ignoring the most recent data point, which is important data that should be included. The fact that he got off to a poor start is data that shouldn't be ignored just because it doesn't fit your hypothesis.

4) Miller has been a reliever for four years. Those four years provide a sample size of 200+ innings. Even including Kimbrel's outlier 2012 year, the difference in four year ERA/FIP/XFIP is 0.77/0.5/0.34. This is not a huge difference, and almost all of it is driven by 2012. Throw out 2012 and the difference drops to 0.22/-0.05/-0.26.
A statement like "Miller's best ERA doesn't match any of Kimbrel's years prior to 2015" implies that Miller hasn't even come close to Kimbrel's level. As shown above, such a statement obscures a proper interpretation of the data.

EDIT: Finally, let's assume that your comparison to Mariano is accurate; Kimbrel is an unusual commodity in that he's a low volatile dominant reliever that won't have a bad year. If this is how the market views him, then you'd only need to add one or two pieces (e.g. devin/marrero) to pick up a top-line starter. Furthermore, you wouldn't need to put together a package for yet another SP (unless you decide to outbid everyone for Price despite picking up 10 million in AAV).
 
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I wonder if no longer having as impressive an heir apparent to Bogaerts (who I absolutely hope we sign long-term) makes the Boras negotiation just a little bit harder.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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2016 World Series Game 7... 2 outs bases loaded Bryce Harper up. Would you rather have O'Day in there or... Craig Kimbrell (note: Koji pitched the 8th)?

I don't love the trade but if he's not giving up any more prospects, I can live with it. Guerra hit 279/329/449 while BABIP'ing .342. I like Margot, but he hit .276/.324/.419 last year. Maybe he turns out to be good Marquis Grissom? A lot to give up but Kimbrel is one of the best. I'm coming around to the trade as long as DD doesn't get rid of our A prospects.
 

AlNipper49

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Guerra was a great fielder but I really don't think you could have called him a heir to X in any way at this point, much less an impressive one.

The overwhelming likelihood is that his ceiling is as a ML utility infielder IMHO.
 

Adrian's Dome

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I wonder if no longer having as impressive an heir apparent to Bogaerts (who I absolutely hope we sign long-term) makes the Boras negotiation just a little bit harder.
Worrying about having an heir apparent to a 23 year old silver slugger who by all means looks to stick at the position is something I doubt is on anyone's radar at the moment, future contract negotiations or not.