Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

5050HindSight

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Gene Conleys Plane Ticket said:
The scorecard you see there is not the judges' scorecard. It's the state athletic commission's tabulation sheet. The judges themselves fill out a card after each round and hand it in. They never touch it again after that. So the apparent cross-outs on that card pictured on boxrec.com are the state commission official correcting his own read of the cards.

Now, how he misread a "10" as a "9" is another story altogether. As you said earlier, Ken Morita must have the worst handwriting of any boxing judge ever.
I'm not 100% clear on the boxing scoring process. I don't really know the difference between the judges' scorecards, and this tabulation sheet. And I don't know the methods that are used to tabulate these scores. Is it possible that the scores were changed just on the tabulation sheet, and not on the judges scorecards themselves, or is that not possible? I don't know the answers here, but i do know that if i was in charge of the tabulation sheets, and if the public could see these sheets, and if a change would be questioned...i'd probably NOT simply write one number over the first number, i'd probably start with a clean sheet. But maybe that's just me.

I really don't worry about this giving boxing a bad name or a "black eye." I just think fight fans and fight writers love to bitch about how fucked up the sport is. Which doesn't mean that it's not fucked up. It only means that things like this can get blown way out of proportion due to the sport's legitimate but exaggerated reputation for shadiness.

I mean, almost every week in the NFL brings some blown official's call that changes the course of a game -- even with instant replay. And no one talks about football getting a bad name or a black eye. Is someone going to tell me there's no corruption or shadiness in football? Come on.
I disagree here. First of all, we don't have a blown call here. A blown call, is the equivalent of a missed low blow, or calling a slip a knockdown or vice versa, or stepping in and stopping a fight too early. Something like that. The NFL equivalent here would be if say the Patriots beat the Steelers 17-16, the fans went home, and then the officals realized they forgot about the safety the steelers got in the 1st quarter, and changed the score to 18-17. Anytime that scoring is done in secret, you will always question outcomes such as this one. I don't know if there is a way to improve on this...maybe judges scores could be announced live...but i'm sure that doing so would present it's own set of problems.

But I do think outcomes like this give boxing a bad name. Not to diehard fans, who will watch anyway, and realize that these things occur. But it does discourage marginal fans, or people that might become fans from watching boxing. I don't think this particular circumstance hurts, because the fight wasn't that big, so netither was the story. But what if the same thing happened in a DeLaHoya-Maywhether fight? Not only would it be seen by more people, but it would be a top story on all the sports shows and talk radio. A lot of people that might become boxing fans, will see this "shady outcome" which will reinforce to them why following boxing isn't worth it to them.

For a sport struggling to reclaim it's popularity, and find a new generation of fans, anything that reinforces the "boxing is shady" stereotype doesn't help win those fans.

And I wouldn't exactly call Juarez a "decent amateur with a spotty pro career." He won a silver medal at the 2000 Olympics and should have won a gold except for a referee who was later suspended for his actions in the gold medal bout. Before his Olympic "loss" he'd won 68 amateur fights in a row. As a pro, this was just his second loss, and it's arguable that he should have won this one, too. He's damn good fighter who almost certainly will hold a title or two in the near future. Barrera himself admitted that he knew this would be a tough fight and that Juarez is the real thing.
I may have sounded more down on Juarez than I really am. I do think he is a good fighter, and he held his own against one of the best 130lb fighters in the world. Berrera is clearly becoming the past of this division (though he still has a few fights left) and Juarez is the future, if not at 130, then another class. What I meant was that Juarez really has not beaten anyone good yet. I think his biggest name opponnent before last night was Humberto Soto, who I don't think is very good, and who beat Juarez pretty convincigly.

As for a rematch, it definitely would not be in the best interest of Berrera, who would be better off against Morales or Pacquiao especially in the pocketbook. The only problem is that Morales is fighting Pacquiao in November, and Berrera is also scheduled to fight in November. So, is Berrera better off against a stiff (I bet Nagy is available)? Of couse. But a better fight would be a rematch vrs Juarez, or maybe Barrios? Is there enough time to get a Juraez-Barrios fight in, and the winner getting Berrera in November? That would be interesting, which means it has less than zero chance of happening.

Anyway, there are a lot of great fights coming up in 2006:

Saturday HBO has Jhonny Gonzalez v. Fernando Montiel which should be interesting.

June 3rd Showtime has Castillo-Corrales III

June 10th, a couple of PPV fights: Tarver-Hopkins on one card, Cotto on another.

June 17th, HBO has a better fight (in my book) then either PPV with Taylor-Wright.

July 15th, Mosley-Vargas on PPV. (I've always been a huge Mosley guy)

July 22nd, Baldomir-Gatti on HBO. Gatti always entertains.

And there are many other cool fights scheduled for the Fall. Should be an interesting year.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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I'm not 100% clear on the boxing scoring process. I don't really know the difference between the judges' scorecards, and this tabulation sheet. And I don't know the methods that are used to tabulate these scores. Is it possible that the scores were changed just on the tabulation sheet, and not on the judges scorecards themselves, or is that not possible? I don't know the answers here, but i do know that if i was in charge of the tabulation sheets, and if the public could see these sheets, and if a change would be questioned...i'd probably NOT simply write one number over the first number, i'd probably start with a clean sheet. But maybe that's just me.
That's a good point about the tabulation sheets. Why not just write up a clean one?

The California Athletic Commission has finally explained what happened, or at least what they say happened. You can read the story here, but the gist of it is this:

Official Rebecca Alvarez was responsible for transferring the judges’ scorecard tallies onto a master sheet. Judges Morita and Ford each scored the final round even and Alvarez saw a “10″ under Juarez’s name on both arbiters’ card. She assumed, incorrectly, that Juarez had won the round, 10-9, on the Morita and Ford scorecards, because, she felt, judges rarely score a round even.
While I do believe this explanation and still feel it was an honest mistake, that doesn't make it an excusable one. Why would she "assume" anything? Why not just look at the scorecards and transcribe what they say? Isn't that her job? I don't there's dishonesty here, but there is definitely extreme incompetence.

But the real question is, why the hell did two judges score an even round in the final round of an obviously very close, championship fight? I felt, as did many, that Juarez won that round (I had him winning the last 5 in a row). But that's not even the point.

The point is that judges are paid to make tough calls and tough decisions. These judges were all extremely experienced veterans. They are generally discouraged from scoring even rounds. But if they must, even rounds are usually reserved for the early rounds of a fight when the boxers are still in their "feeling out" process. There is no excuse for a 10-10 round in the late rounds, especially when it's the final round and even more especially when the fight is as close as this one was.

Quit waffling! Make a goddam decision, already! It's your job!

I can only think it's a case of giving the champion the benefit of the doubt. I would bet that going to that 12th round, both Duane Ford and Ken Morita had it in their minds that the challenger was going to have to score a knockdown to win the round. They just weren't going to give it to him any other way.
 

BGrif21125

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Gene Conleys Plane Ticket said:
But the real question is, why the hell did two judges score an even round in the final round of an obviously very close, championship fight? I felt, as did many, that Juarez won that round (I had him winning the last 5 in a row). But that's not even the point.

The point is that judges are paid to make tough calls and tough decisions. These judges were all extremely experienced veterans. They are generally discouraged from scoring even rounds. But if they must, even rounds are usually reserved for the early rounds of a fight when the boxers are still in their "feeling out" process. There is no excuse for a 10-10 round in the late rounds, especially when it's the final round and even more especially when the fight is as close as this one was.

Quit waffling! Make a goddam decision, already! It's your job!
[post="311744"][/post]​
Exactly. I can't ever recall seeing a 10-10 final round. In fact, I can't recall seeing any round other than the 1st being scored 10-10, and that's only when the first round is completely technical and the fighters just stand there looking at each other.
Other than that, the only time you ever see an even round is if one fighter gets a point deducted, but ends up winning the round, therefore making it even.
I searched the other day for the compubox stats from round 12, but I couldn't find them. I certainly had Juarez winning the 12th in my head.
 

5050HindSight

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BGrif21125 said:
Exactly. I can't ever recall seeing a 10-10 final round. In fact, I can't recall seeing any round other than the 1st being scored 10-10, and that's only when the first round is completely technical and the fighters just stand there looking at each other.
Other than that, the only time you ever see an even round is if one fighter gets a point deducted, but ends up winning the round, therefore making it even.
I searched the other day for the compubox stats from round 12, but I couldn't find them. I certainly had Juarez winning the 12th in my head.
[post="311753"][/post]​
I don't recall seeing a 10-10 final round, but i don't "not recall it" happening either. I know in some random fight a few weeks ago Teddy Atlas' unofficial scorecard had a middle round scored "10-10". But I don't recall it ever happening on an official scorecard, at least not late in the fight.

Anyway,

anyone watching the HBO offering Saturday night? Gonzalez-Montiel should be a decent little fight.

I probably won't watch live, but i'll tivo it for sure.
 

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I only caught about 10 seconds of last night's fight. Just enough time to realize that Montiel was wearing a pair of shorts that would make the 1950's NBA proud. Anyone catch the whole thing?

Very interesting 3 weeks of boxing coming up.
 

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Bernard Hopkins defeats Antonio Tarver by Unanimous Decision to become the undisputed light heavyweight champ.
Amazing accomplishment by Hopkins. At 41 years old, he accomplished something Sugar Ray Robinson failed to do.
 

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BGrif21125 said:
Bernard Hopkins defeats Antonio Tarver by Unanimous Decision to become the undisputed light heavyweight champ.
Amazing accomplishment by Hopkins. At 41 years old, he accomplished something Sugar Ray Robinson failed to do.
[post="322957"][/post]​
I'll get to see the fight when HBO shows it for free, but I heard Hopkins just demolished Tarver in a masterclass of boxing. What was your opinion?
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Spacemans Bong said:
I'll get to see the fight when HBO shows it for free, but I heard Hopkins just demolished Tarver in a masterclass of boxing. What was your opinion?
[post="322973"][/post]​
Yeah, pretty much. Maybe not as definitive as Calzaghe's destruction of Lacy, but in the same ballpark at least.

While Hopkins deserves all the credit, I thought Tarver looked a little weird. From the very first round, it looked to me that he just wasn't ready for the fight. It could be that the weight loss after the Rocky movie really did affect him (though he'd never admit it). But somehow he looked both mentally and physically out of it from the early stages of the fight.

The way B-Hop executed his game plan, however, I'm not sure that even a 100% Tarver wouild have beaten him tonight or even come very close. It was a resounding, virtuoso performance. I agreed with Emanual Steward who said after the fight that this this performance does more for Hopkins' legacy than his 20 defenses of the middleweight title. If he keeps his pledge to make this his final fight, he goes out in as spectacular fashion as any boxer I can think of.
 

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I did not order the fight, though I can't wait to watch it next Saturday as the first fight of a fantastic HBO doubleheader.

Despite his style, which has never been crowd pleasing, I've always liked watching Bernard. I thought he deserved a ton of credit for being willing to give Taylor a shot, despite the fact that he was almost 15 years younger, biggest, faster, stronger, more athletic, etc. Most 40 year old guys like Hopkins would've never given a young up and comer a shot like that.
Also, something about Tarver has always rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it was how he whined constantly after the first Jones fight about how he was robbed, even though Jones had clearly won, and the reason Jones had won was because Tarver just froze up in the late rounds and refused to let his hands go.

I hope Hopkins doesn't give him a rematch, but if he did, I would pay money to see Hopkins scream, "What's your excuse this time, Tarver?" during the intros.

Hopkins was a HOF lock before this fight, one of the best middleweights ever. This just adds a whole other layer to his resume. To beat a legitimate champion at a weight 15 pounds above his normal weight, at the age of 41, is amazing.

I really hope Hopkins keeps to his promise and retires now, when he's on top of the world. I've just heard too many fighters say they're done and then come back to fight. I'm skeptical. If Jones comes calling, I don't think Hopkins will be able to resist. That'd be a fight featuring two guys who should be retired.

A final thought, which leads into next week. Now that Hopkins has dominated a 175 pound champion, what does that say about Taylor's two victories over Hopkins? Taylor has been critcized by many, since despite winning, he looked the worse for wear at the end of both fights against Hopkins. I think you have to give Taylor more credit after seeing this result last night.

EDIT: Two random things I've read in several columns over the last few weeks:
1. Apparently Floyd Mayweather Sr. had another dispute with his son recently, and now he doesn't mind being part of a DLH-Floyd fight. In fact he said if he trained DLH, DLH would knock his son out. I'm starting to think this fight could really happen in the fall. The biggest non-heavyweight fight since Leonard-Hagler??
2. Rumors that Wladimir Klitschko will fight James Toney. Klitschko currently weighing several options, one of them being to air the fight in prime-time on ABC. This would obviously be a great move for boxing, so I give it about a 5% chance of actually happening.
 

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June 17th, Memphis, TN- Regular HBO!
Jermain Taylor vs. Winky Wright for the Undisputed Middleweight Championship.

Taylor (25-0, 17 KO's)
Undisputed Middleweight Champion, Consensus Top 10 PFP
Notable Wins: Bernard Hopkins (twice)
Notable Losses: None

Wright (50-3, 25 KO's)
Former Junior Middleweight Champion, Widely considered the #2 PFP fighter (i.e. best fighter in the world not named Floyd Mayweather)
Notable Wins: Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley (twice)
Notable Losses: Fernando Vargas (disputed)

The quality of opposition argument is a rather interesting one. Taylor has fought his entire career as a middleweight, while Wright spent the first 51 fights of his career at 154 pounds. This will be his third fight at 160.
Wright has beaten more big-name opponents, but those opponents were fighting well above their natural weight classes. Mosley was a great lightweight in the late 90's, and fought the fight of his career at 147 pounds in 2000, but he was in over his head at 154 pounds. Trinidad was a devestating puncher at 147 and 154, but he was never able to beat a high-level opponent at middleweight, the weight class at which he fought Wright. So while Wright has high profile wins at 154 and 160, it can be argued that he's never beaten an elite, natural 154 or 160 pounder. Also, Trinidad's idea of strategy was to wail away and knock his opponent's head off. Whenever he fought someone smart enough and skilled enough to avoid his left hook, he got completely outclassed. Wright's style was a nightmare matchup for Trinidad, and "Plan B" was never in Tito's lexicon.
OTOH, Taylor has only beaten one elite opponent, but that opponent is one of the 2 or 3 greatest middleweights in the history of the sport, and had reigned as champion for 12 years until Taylor outpointed him. Also, Hopkins is a conservative, crafty, technical fighter, much like Wright. So I give a slight edge to Taylor in this regard.

Tale of the Tape:
Taylor is 7 years younger (27-34), 3 inches taller (6'1"-5'10"), and has a 6 inch reach advantage (78-72). These stats are very important in this fight, since Wright's entire offensive attack is based on his jab. Trinidad and Mosley didn't have the significant height and reach advantage against Wright that Taylor will enjoy. Wright will have to sellout to get within jabbing range, which isn't a comfortable tactic for a defensive-oriented fighter.

Odds:
This fight is generally considered a true pick 'em, although I found some lines that listed Taylor as a slight favorite, in the -120 range. I think Taylor's youth, range, and natural size advantage will make the difference. Also, if there's one trainer who can dissect Wright's style, it's the guy working Taylor's corner, Emanuel Steward.
Pick: Taylor

The over-under is 11.5 rounds. Wright has never been a knockout puncher. He's got 25 KO's in 53 fights. He jabs you to death.
Taylor is the bigger puncher, but he's not a KO artist either. And given Wright's defensive posture, I don't expect Taylor to land a lot of huge power shots.
Pick: Over

Finally, in a fight that's so evenly matched, and so likely to go to the scorecards, betting on a Draw at +2000 isn't a bad move at all. In fact I would strongly recommend putting down a small amount on a Draw, with the chance for a huge payoff.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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BGrif21125 said:
June 17th, Memphis, TN- Regular HBO!
Jermain Taylor vs. Winky Wright for the Undisputed Middleweight Championship.

Taylor (25-0, 17 KO's)
Undisputed Middleweight Champion, Consensus Top 10 PFP
Notable Wins: Bernard Hopkins (twice)
Notable Losses: None

Wright (50-3, 25 KO's)
Former Junior Middleweight Champion, Widely considered the #2 PFP fighter (i.e. best fighter in the world not named Floyd Mayweather)
Notable Wins: Felix Trinidad, Shane Mosley (twice)
Notable Losses: Fernando Vargas (disputed)

The quality of opposition argument is a rather interesting one. Taylor has fought his entire career as a middleweight, while Wright spent the first 51 fights of his career at 154 pounds. This will be his third fight at 160.
Wright has beaten more big-name opponents, but those opponents were fighting well above their natural weight classes. Mosley was a great lightweight in the late 90's, and fought the fight of his career at 147 pounds in 2000, but he was in over his head at 154 pounds. Trinidad was a devestating puncher at 147 and 154, but he was never able to beat a high-level opponent at middleweight, the weight class at which he fought Wright. So while Wright has high profile wins at 154 and 160, it can be argued that he's never beaten an elite, natural 154 or 160 pounder. Also, Trinidad's idea of strategy was to wail away and knock his opponent's head off. Whenever he fought someone smart enough and skilled enough to avoid his left hook, he got completely outclassed. Wright's style was a nightmare matchup for Trinidad, and "Plan B" was never in Tito's lexicon.
OTOH, Taylor has only beaten one elite opponent, but that opponent is one of the 2 or 3 greatest middleweights in the history of the sport, and had reigned as champion for 12 years until Taylor outpointed him. Also, Hopkins is a conservative, crafty, technical fighter, much like Wright. So I give a slight edge to Taylor in this regard.

Tale of the Tape:
Taylor is 7 years younger (27-34), 3 inches taller (6'1"-5'10"), and has a 6 inch reach advantage (78-72). These stats are very important in this fight, since Wright's entire offensive attack is based on his jab. Trinidad and Mosley didn't have the significant height and reach advantage against Wright that Taylor will enjoy. Wright will have to sellout to get within jabbing range, which isn't a comfortable tactic for a defensive-oriented fighter.

Odds:
This fight is generally considered a true pick 'em, although I found some lines that listed Taylor as a slight favorite, in the -120 range. I think Taylor's youth, range, and natural size advantage will make the difference. Also, if there's one trainer who can dissect Wright's style, it's the guy working Taylor's corner, Emanuel Steward.
Pick: Taylor

The over-under is 11.5 rounds. Wright has never been a knockout puncher. He's got 25 KO's in 53 fights. He jabs you to death.
Taylor is the bigger puncher, but he's not a KO artist either. And given Wright's defensive posture, I don't expect Taylor to land a lot of huge power shots.
Pick: Over

Finally, in a fight that's so evenly matched, and so likely to go to the scorecards, betting on a Draw at +2000 isn't a bad move at all. In fact I would strongly recommend putting down a small amount on a Draw, with the chance for a huge payoff.
[post="329176"][/post]​

This is one of the most interesting fights in a really fine year for boxing.

This may not be the all-out war that Castillo-Corrales III would have been, had it happened, and I'm not anticipating the stunningly virtuoso one-sided performances we saw in Calzaghe-Lacy and to a lesser extent, Hopkins-Tarver (which will be rebroadcast by HBO before the Taylor-Wright fight, for those who didn't pony up for the PPV last Saturday). But this is likely to be one of the most intellectually intriguing matchups you'll see this year. Not only does it pit the crafty, self-made veteran and master tactician Wright against the youthful, hard-punching former Olympian Taylor, but it's a matchup of two-time "trainer of the year" Dan Birmingham (in Wright's corner) against perhaps the most accomplished trainer in the game, Emanuel Steward.

The wild card is, how much will Steward have been able to affect Taylor in just six weeks of training with him, after replacing Pat Burns, the former cop who trained Taylor since after the 2000 Olympics. Wright's camp contends that Steward won't have changed anything about Taylor, or if he has, it'll all evaporate once "Bad Intentions" gets in the ring with Winky. We'll see.

What I am sure of is this. Wright is easily the best tactical fighter in the current era of boxing. Floyd Mayweather has more astonishing physical abilities, but no one can match Wright's defense, well-timed jabbing and use of flurries to score points, all coming off his defense. BUT -- as you mentioned -- Wright has never fought anyone as big, strong and fast as Jermaine Taylor.

Wright's biggest wins, as you note, came against Shane Mosely (twice) a natural lightweight/welterweight (they fought at junior middleweight) and Felix Trinidad, a natural welterweight who was, in addition, on the downside of his career (the Wright fight was only Trindad's second after coming out of retirement). When Winky fought Fernando Vargas in 1999, he lost. It was a close, controversial decision. But still, the bigger, harder-punching Vargas gave Wright plenty of problems.

Jermaine Taylor has fought his whole career at middleweight, and really has the body of a super middleweight or even a light-heavyweight. In fact, if Taylor manages to prevail on Saturday, I'm guessing he'll move up to super-middleweight for a super-fight with Calzaghe either late this year or early next.

So my question is, if Taylor attacks Wright aggressively, hammering away at that iron guard of a hands-up defense that Wright wields, will he break through and be able to land some damaging shots? I think he will. The much smaller, light-punching Sam Soliman did it last December. Though Winky was never hurt by Soliman, he was banged up around the face and eyes by the end of the fight. If Taylor can do the same, he'll knock Wright out.

That's why the key to this fight, as I see it, is for Taylor to wage an all-out assault practically from the opening bell, pretty much as Soliman did. It may go nowhere at first, but Taylor's conditioning is always great and if he can keep up the pounding for five or six rounds, I don't think Wright can take it.

However, if Taylor is bothered by Wright's jab and fails to get his head out of its way, it'll be a long night for him. Any kind of a tactical fight is a Wright win, probably by relatively easy unanimous decision.

Anyway, this is really tough fight to pick, but I think after the first round or two we'll have a pretty good idea of where it's going. If Taylor is very agressive and tenacious, hammering Wright with big shots and not worrying how many get caught on the gloves and forearms, he'll stop Wright within eight or nine.

If Wright works his hard jab and lands it a few times early on Taylor's face or chest, this'll be a boxing match and though Taylor will have his moments, Wright wins a UD.
 

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A few things on this thread:

1) Pseu asked what happens if the undercard goes down quickly. The correct answer is that there are usually two fights on the undercard that are labelled "If required" to fill time. They are usually two sets of guys having one of their first 2-3 fights, but they can be very entertaining. These fights will be tailored to the time needed - they will, in fact, be 5 round fights if that is what is required.

2) I think that Wright will beat Taylor, and I actually think that he will knock him out. Winky has become such a ridiculously smart fighter over the last 2 years I think that he will unlock Taylor and end up pounding him into the ropes to end the fight.

3) Why the hell have you people not bought my boxing book?
 

BGrif21125

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Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
I think that Wright will beat Taylor, and I actually think that he will knock him out. Winky has become such a ridiculously smart fighter over the last 2 years I think that he will unlock Taylor and end up pounding him into the ropes to end the fight.
[post="332350"][/post]​
This fight is a pick 'em, but I don't see Wright by KO being a realistic ending. Wright has one KO in the last 7 years, and that was at 154 lbs against Jason Papillion, who was knocked out 5 times in a 2.5 year span at the end of his career. Wright pummelled both Mosley and Trinidad with every punch in the book for 12 rounds, and never came close to knocking out either of them. And those guys were both smaller fighters than Taylor is.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Rick Burlesons Yam Bag said:
2) I think that Wright will beat Taylor, and I actually think that he will knock him out. Winky has become such a ridiculously smart fighter over the last 2 years I think that he will unlock Taylor and end up pounding him into the ropes to end the fight.

3) Why the hell have you people not bought my boxing book?
[post="332350"][/post]​

To reference a currently popular P&G thread, the chances of Wright knocking out Jermaine Taylor are -- well, you know. The reason I say this is that Wright doesn't even try for knockouts unless he's 100 percent sure he can get one. That clearly will not be the case against the bigger, stronger Taylor.

Winky's from the Roy Jones/Bernard Hopkins school of low-risk, high reward boxing. Like those guys, Wright sees his only job as winning the fight. He doesn't want to get hit and if it looks like he's at risk of taking some damaging shots, he'll retreat into his defense and do just what he needs to in order to get a decision. That's probably a very smart strategy for his long term health, but it makes for rather dull, workmanlike fights and it definitely doesn't lend itself to many knockouts.

I actually think a more possible scenario is that Taylor pulls a Tarver-Jones 2 on Wright, landing a big counter shot and flattening Wright. I wouldn't bet on that happening either, but if I had to, I'd take thatbet before I'd bet on Wright kayo'ing Taylor.

Wright may end up winning this fight easily, but it'll be by unanimous decision.

Of course, this is boxing and the great thing about the sport is that, when you have two elite fighters in the ring, you never really know what's going to happen until it does. So I could be totally wrong.

I'll buy your boxing book. Post the link again.
 

Rick Burlesons Yam Bag

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Mark my words.

I think Taylor is going to punch himself out and Wright will end up knocking him out - admittedly, I think a TKO is more likely than a KO per se, and I should have clarified, which was lazy of me, but I do think it is highly possible that Taylor will go down from sheer exhaustion.

I just don't think that Taylor will hold back and that will be his downfall. Winky will box him into oblivion. I don't see this one going the distance, I really don't.

I don't have enough time to give this more detail, my apologies. I think that Taylor is not as savvy as folks generally consider and I think that Winky is super sharp.

You are best to buy Shadow Boxers through Amazon.
 

FredLynnsGlove

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I did find it funny/strange that Emmanuel Steward- Taylors trainer, called Wright the best pound for pound fighter in the world. Some of Jermain's people we're looking at him like- what the hell did you just say?

Winky's camp jumped all over that comment during their pre-fight press conference.

There are tons of Arkansas/Taylor fans in town tonight- Jermain will certainly have the crowd behind him, but I'm taking Winky in this one.

Winky Wright, your new middleweight champ.
 

Rocco Graziosa

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Decent fight so far as Wright is actually putting together some legit combinations and exposing himself out there. His one two and cover up style is effective but not fun to watch.
 

BGrif21125

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I'm sure many people are disappointed that such a big fight ended in a draw, but I thought last night's fight had a lot more action than I expected, so I was pleased overall.
Tough fight to score, as Wright landed more punches and was more accurate, while Taylor threw more and landed the harder shots. Wright shook his head every single time he got hit with a clean shot, which means those shots were hurting him.
Thru 4 or 5 rounds, I thought Taylor was clearly winning the fight, landing lots of clean shots, and it looked like he might even have a chance to get Wright with a big shot and stop him. But give credit to Wright, he tightened up his defense and started inflicting damage to Taylor.
In my head, I had it either 114-114 or maybe 115-113 for Taylor, the draw was certainly a legitimate ending.
Finally, Wright is a moron for fighting the 12th the way he did. When you're the challenger, you have to earn a victory. Everyone knew that fight was close, there's no way Wright should've thought he had a large enough lead to take a round off. Who gave him his 12th round strategy, Oscar De La Hoya??
When you've played the whole "I get no respect, nobody gave me anything" card for your whole career, you can't cruise in the 12th round in your biggest fight and then complain about not getting a decision.
And then after the fight, Taylor says that he'll gladly give Wright a rematch, even though he doesn't have to and can make plenty of money in other fights. OTOH, Wright claims he won't fight him again, although I think he'll change his mind once the emotion wears off, and once he realizes there's no other fight out there that will earn him 3 million dollars.
 

Sille Skrub

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The Filipino Elvis takes Oscar Larios in the home country tonight. It will be interesting to see how the Pac Man handles the pressure of fighting in front of his countrymen.

Although it will be a good fight, tonight I think the Flip Elvis will handle it fine. I'm going to pack as many Filipinos as I can in my living room, turn off the AC and pretend we are back in the home country.

All we'll be missing is the $5 harlots.

Go Pac.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Sille Skrub said:
The Filipino Elvis takes Oscar Larios in the home country tonight. It will be interesting to see how the Pac Man handles the pressure of fighting in front of his countrymen.

Although it will be a good fight, tonight I think the Flip Elvis will handle it fine. I'm going to pack as many Filipinos as I can in my living room, turn off the AC and pretend we are back in the home country.

All we'll be missing is the $5 harlots.

Go Pac.
[post="347195"][/post]​
This should be a walkover for the Pac Man. It's really just a gift to his fans in is home country. Larios looks good when he's in against a punching bag like Wayne McCullough, but he got brutally stopped by Israel Vasquez last December.

While it may take Pacquiao a few rounds to figure him out, I can only think Larios will be lucky if he comes out of this with his head still atttached to his shoulders. Plus, Larios is moving up two weight classes AND fighting in the Philippines. If Larios win this it would have to go down as a bigger upset that Douglas-Tyson (which looking back on Tyson's career, doesn't seem like such a big upset anymore, but that's another story). In fact, it would be one of the most improbable upsets in boxing history.

This is Pac's tune-up for the conclusion of his trilogy against Morales in the fall. After that -- since I think Pacquiao will stop Morales again, in much easier fashion than earlier this year -- I expect he'll take the winner of the Barrera-Juarez rematch, who will be Juarez, I expect. At least I hope so. Pacquiao laid a pretty severe beating on Barrera three years ago, and the Mexican champ isn't getting any younger. Not surre I want to see that again.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Sille Skrub said:
The Filipino Elvis takes Oscar Larios in the home country tonight. It will be interesting to see how the Pac Man handles the pressure of fighting in front of his countrymen.

Although it will be a good fight, tonight I think the Flip Elvis will handle it fine. I'm going to pack as many Filipinos as I can in my living room, turn off the AC and pretend we are back in the home country.

All we'll be missing is the $5 harlots.

Go Pac.
[post="347195"][/post]​
Will lumpia be served?
 

BGrif21125

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I completely forgot about this fight. Is it being held in Quezon City at the same arena as Ali-Frazier III?

Pacquiao should win rather easily, and I agree with GCPT that after this, he'll take out Morales again. Pacquiao is the #3 PFP fighter in the world right now IMO.
Morales is a great champion but he's been through too many wars over the years.
Pacquiao- Juarez could be a phenomenal action fight.

BTW, it's been officially announced that the cost of Rahman-Maskaev is $49.95. I got a good laugh out of that one.
 

Sille Skrub

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BGrif21125 said:
Is it being held in Quezon City at the same arena as Ali-Frazier III?
[post="347582"][/post]​
Yes, yes it is.

No lumpia, Bonger. Mom lives in Ohio. :(

I guess I could have asked one of my aunts or one of my female cousins, though.
 

Sille Skrub

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You can tell this broadcast is from the Phillippines. The video quality is terrible. Someone needs drop the adobo and throw more foil on the rabbit ears atop the production truck.
 

BigA27

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I watched this fight on a shitty stream and under the influence of a lot of cold medication.

Still Larios is a ridiculously tough fighter. He took a frightful beating from the 6th round on and kept coming. Dropped twice he kept getting up.

Pac did what Pac generally does. He felt Larios out early and then overwhelmed him with his speed, skill, and his countless tricky angles.

Skrub, hope all went well at Skrub manor.
 

Sille Skrub

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It did, thanks. Hope you're feeling better.

Larios' performance was a credit both to his excellent conditioning (5-6 weeks in Japan) and his huge heart. Larios definitely put a scare into Pac (and the Skrub/Flip Elvis rooting party) in the third.

PacMan dominated the fight from about the 5th round on and it really wasn't much of a fight after that. I love watching his fights because his hands are so quick. He was very effective with misdirection, moving in one direction and quickly snapping a punch from the other side. Pac continually landed hard shots in this manner (amongst many others).

As always, there was a ton of unintentional comedy in this fight both before and after the fight. Hearing Michael Buffer open with "Mabuhay, Phillippines" was worth the $40 alone for me. The sight of the security guard texting someone as Larios entered the ring was evidence exhibit 1A on how the texting craze has hit Flip-land. Also, there was one shot as Larios walking in where literally every person in the stands (in the background of the shot) was sending a text message. Now I know where I get my texting addiction. Lastly, the post-fight interviews were giggle-fest for me as well. Definitely made instant "keep-until-I-delete" status on the TiVo.

Pacquiao/Morales III in Vegas on 11/18. Can't wait...
 

BGrif21125

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It's only been two weeks, and Winky Wright is already whining again.
http://www.boxingscene.com/index.php?m=show&id=4621

Seems Bob Arum offered Winky 4 million guaranteed (with the chance to make up to 6 million with PPV revenues) to fight Antonio Margarito in October. Seems like a good deal for Winky, would be the most money he's ever made, vs. a guy who's naturally smaller.
But Winky's ticked because Mayweather was offered 8 million to fight Margarito. Winky doesn't seem to get the fact that Mayweather is younger, better, more personable, more marketable, and therefore worth more money.
 

BigA27

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I find it painfully confounding that Winky hasn't figured out that a "peek-a-bo" high guard uber defensive style with no power and a helluva lot of jabbing is not terribly marketable mix. The guy is an excellent boxer, but his style and antics are not at all attractive. He will never be the box office draw he thinks he should be and sorely needs to get back in touch with reality.
 

BGrif21125

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Dan Rafael reports that Jermain Taylor is negotiating to fight "Contender" winner Sergio Mora. Certainly a good move for Taylor PR-wise, as this fight would attract Contender fans who may not be 365 day a year boxing fans.
I'll admit that I never followed the show, but I did see a few minutes of the fights that ESPN showed in LA. And from what I saw, none of the Contenders would stand a chance against Taylor.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/co..._dan&id=2505866
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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BGrif21125 said:
Dan Rafael reports that Jermain Taylor is negotiating to fight "Contender" winner Sergio Mora. Certainly a good move for Taylor PR-wise, as this fight would attract Contender fans who may not be 365 day a year boxing fans.
I'll admit that I never followed the show, but I did see a few minutes of the fights that ESPN showed in LA. And from what I saw, none of the Contenders would stand a chance against Taylor.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/co..._dan&id=2505866
[post="350485"][/post]​
Actually, I'm a little surprised that Taylor's people would consider this fight. Especially after Lou DiBella declared that Taylor's next opponent, while not a walkover, would be someone "who comes straight at him." Mora is definitley not that. While I wouldn't give Mora much chance to win the fight, he has a tricky awkward style that makes him hard to look good against. After three fights in a row against tricky, awkward opponents (and I'm not putting Mora on a level with Hopkins and Wright -- but still, like them, he's a frustrating match-up for anybody), it seems the best match would be someone who would give Taylor an old-fashioned brawl, probably resulting in a third or fourth-round KO for Taylor. If they want to go after a "Contender," Peter Manfredo would be perfect.

Nonetheless, the obvious hope here is that Mora would bring his sizable audience, built on NBC and ESPN, with him. That's why I'm disappointed that DiBella's talking about putting this fight on PPV. First of all, it's a stretch to think that fans who are accustomed to seeing their fighter on basic cable and free, over-the-air TV are suddenly going to shelll out 40 or 50 bucks to watch him on TV. I think this fight will a PPV bomb.

On the other hand, if it were on "free" TV, I think this fight would do an enormous (for boxing) rating. This is a great opportunity to expand the audience for boxing AND to take full advantage of Taylor's marketability -- good looking, humble, well-spoken kid -- by going for the biggest audience possible. Put the fight on ESPN or even ABC, ESPN's "sister" network. In the long-term, that move would be more lucrative and beneficial for Taylor (and therefore, DiBella) than going for the quick bang of the PPV buck. DiBella of alll promoters should understand that, as a former TV executive himself.

But, typical boxing mentality. Rake in the bucks as quick as you can and the future of your own fighter, not to mention your sport, be damned.
 

BGrif21125

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Gene Conleys Plane Ticket said:
Nonetheless, the obvious hope here is that Mora would bring his sizable audience, built on NBC and ESPN, with him. That's why I'm disappointed that DiBella's talking about putting this fight on PPV. First of all, it's a stretch to think that fans who are accustomed to seeing their fighter on basic cable and free, over-the-air TV are suddenly going to shelll out 40 or 50 bucks to watch him on TV. I think this fight will a PPV bomb.

But, typical boxing mentality. Rake in the bucks as quick as you can and the future of your own fighter, not to mention your sport, be damned.
[post="352811"][/post]​
Klitschko was considering airing his title defense on ABC, and now Taylor has a perfect opportunity to do the same. You'd have the two most prestigious weight classes, heavyweight and middleweight, airing their title fights to the whole nation. But like you said, this is boxing, so whatever the smart move is, the promoter will always do the exact opposite.
Also, Mayweather had been pursuing a fight with Mosley, but now Mosley has announced he won't fight again this year. And Margarito, who was tired of waiting, will likely fight someone else in September. So now we'll likely have to watch Mayweather waste another fight in his career fighting a Sharmba Mitchell-level talent.
But at least we've got that Rahman-Maskaev PPV to look forward to.
 

BGrif21125

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Mosley TKO's Vargas in the 6th round. Fernando will always be able to get fights against elite opponents because of his large fanbase, but he will always get killed in those fights. He's just not quick enough, and at this point he can barely make 154 pounds anymore. I hope he's been smart with his money, because he really should retire. He is a very old 28.
 

BGrif21125

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The Mosley KO from last night is up.
KO

It's the exact same punch De La Hoya knocked out Vargas with, and the exact same punch Trinidad destroyed Vargas with, the left hook over Vargas' right hand.
 

5050HindSight

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Just caught the replay. FWIW...when i really got into boxing in the late 90's, Mosley was my favorite fighter. He was fantastic, probably the best PFP fighter, and he was really such a great boxing specimen that it was very hard not to root for him. I stopped following boxing right before he started slipping, and I bet that if Mosley had stayed on top of the boxing world, I probably never would have stopped. Anyway...

This was one of the more one-sided "name" fights that I have ever seen. If you were not a boxing fan, and casually tuned in to this bout, you may have thought that Vargas was some chump thrown into the ring to make the favorite look good. This was a mismatch much like Mayweather-Gatti, absolutely one sided.

A few thoughts...

1. Merchant and Lampley were wondering if Mosley's performance might setup a Mayweather-Mosley fight. That would be quite an awesome fight. I think Mayweather wins easily, but Mosley sure looked good tonight. Mosley and Mayweather have very similar styles, and I think it would be a solid fight. But I don't see Mayweather ruining a future payday with ODLH by getting into the ring with Mosley. Odds of this happening in 2006....5%.

2. You know it's a big fight when Cassius Greene is in the house! His hat kills me every time.

3. Speaking of the corner...Jack Mosley should be a cornerman in every single fight. I don't know if he's a good trainer (i think he is) but he comes across awesome on TV. He is loud, speaks clearly, has no accent, and is funny as hell.

4. I think this was Mosley's best performance since he played Djay in Hustle & Flow.

5. Does Vargas ever fight again? Well, yes, I'm sure he does. But I think he is way past his prime. Too bad, he's only 28. And i'd be surprised if he gets another world class fight. Though part of the reason for Vargas' poor performance could be tied to his weight. I imagine he had to suck down a lot to make 154 (he put on 14 pounds overnight after the weigh-in). When fighters do this, I have a hard time believing that they are 100% when they step in the ring. Anyway, Vargas' future is going to be at 160+, and I'm not sure his power will be as much of an asset at this higher weight class.

Interesting fight.

On to Gatti-Baldimir...
 

BigA27

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Baldomir beat up and thoroughly outboxed Gatti tonight.

Baldomir may not be a great fighter, but he is a tough, stubborn dude.
He went right at Gatti, repeatedly beat him to the punch. Gatti had no answer. He tried to box out of a crouch, but it got him caught, beat up and twice dropped.

Baldomir was the stronger, tougher, and better fighter tonight.
 

BGrif21125

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5050HindSight said:
But I don't see Mayweather ruining a future payday with ODLH by getting into the ring with Mosley. Odds of this happening in 2006....5%.
[post="378442"][/post]​
By all accounts, Mosley is the one trying to avoid this fight, not Mayweather. It would be a risk for Floyd to fight Mosley when the DLH pot of gold is in the near future, but Floyd doesn't think anyone can beat him, and I tend to agree with him. 29 yr old Mosley vs. 29 yr old Mayweather would be an all-time great matchup. But at age 35, while Mosley can still be very competitive, Mayweather just has too much speed, too many weapons, too much ring smarts.

Does Vargas ever fight again? Well, yes, I'm sure he does. But I think he is way past his prime. Too bad, he's only 28. And i'd be surprised if he gets another world class fight. Though part of the reason for Vargas' poor performance could be tied to his weight. I imagine he had to suck down a lot to make 154 (he put on 14 pounds overnight after the weigh-in). When fighters do this, I have a hard time believing that they are 100% when they step in the ring. Anyway, Vargas' future is going to be at 160+, and I'm not sure his power will be as much of an asset at this higher weight class.
Vargas is shot, pure and simple. All athletes in all sports hit a wall at some point, but in no sport does it happen as quickly as boxing. He never recovered from the 12th round vs. Trinidad, it's almost amazing that he's made it this far. Vargas is done, and if he has any smarts, he'll call it quits. Considering that he's been fighting on HBO since he was about 21, and since he's fought so many megafights, one would think he's got plenty of money in the bank. But unfortunately, I'm sure you're right, in that he almost certainly will fight again.

And everything I just said about why Vargas should retire, applies to Gatti as well.

Final thought, after years of 130 and 154 being the most exciting divisions in boxing, the glamour division is clearly now 147. While some of these fighters are overrated, its amazing just how many "name" fighters call the welterweight division home.
Mayweather, Mosley (moving down from 154), Cotto, Margarito, Hatton, Gatti, Judah, now Baldomir. Castillo might even join this list due to his weight problems. So many potential matchups.
I'd like to see Cotto get a shot at Baldomir. He has the potential to be a top 10 PFP fighter and this is just the type of fight he needs to use as a stepping stone.
If Gatti wants one more big payday, he should fight Hatton, since he's really a 140 pounder too and wouldn't present any size problems to Gatti.
 

BGrif21125

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Over the next three weeks, two of the worst PPV's in recent memory will be available.
Next week, Roy Jones will continue to embarass himself and tarnish his once legendary career by fighting Prince Badi Ajamu in Boise. The latest word is that about 2,000 tickets have been sold. Ten years of fighting in front of sold out crowds as the #1 fighter in the world to now fighting in front of nobody in Idaho. Pretty sad.
Then on August 12, Hasim Rahman fights Oleg Maskaev, a fight which I would pay about $3.95 to see. It's available for $49.95.
 

Spacemans Bong

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BGrif21125 said:
Over the next three weeks, two of the worst PPV's in recent memory will be available.
Next week, Roy Jones will continue to embarass himself and tarnish his once legendary career by fighting Prince Badi Ajamu in Boise. The latest word is that about 2,000 tickets have been sold. Ten years of fighting in front of sold out crowds as the #1 fighter in the world to now fighting in front of nobody in Idaho. Pretty sad.
Then on August 12, Hasim Rahman fights Oleg Maskaev, a fight which I would pay about $3.95 to see. It's available for $49.95.
[post="381183"][/post]​
Watching Roy Jones Jr fight a schmuck in Boise is the boxing equivalent of paying money to watch Jose Canseco pitch in the indy leagues.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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I've been traveling so haven't had time to weigh in on the last two weekends of fights. Just wanted to give everyone a heads-up that a new boxing series starts tonight on OLN -- which I think was formerly the Outdoor Life Network but is now just "OLN." It's a Bob Arum-produced series and it's supposed to have a decent-sized budget, though the premier card tonight looks a little week. Anyway, it's "free" (if you have digital cable), so check it out. 9 pm Eastern.
 

BGrif21125

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Klitschko has ended negotiations with ABC to air his heavyweight title defense over-the-air. It's going to be on HBO instead. HBO offered more money of course, big surprise.
The fight will be at MSG on November 11.
If the tickets aren't outrageously overpriced (big if), I may have to check this one out in person. I've been looking for a long time to a.) attend a championship fight and b.) go to MSG, so that could kill two birds with one stone.
 

eddiew112

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Ricky Hatton will face Oktay Urkal on December 9th, which will be on HBO. Urkal is apparently the mandatory contender he must face, I am surprised he didnt go back to 140. Tonight Roy Jones beats the Prince, with 119-106 on all cards. Also, for all you fans, watch John Duddy(middleweight) and/or Paul Williams(Welterweight/Williams will be on BAD soon) if you at all can. These two are the future of their respective divisions.
 

eddiew112

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Also, apparently Mayweather was offered 8 million to fight Margarito, and turned it down. Frankly, Mayweather is scared of Margarito, who could very well have the size and skill to push him around.