Should Joe West be in Cooperstown?

[budcrew08]

Wasn’t sure where to put this, it can be moved.
This weekend, the Contemporary Baseball Era Committee will meet to consider eight candidates for the HoF, including long-time umpire Joe West.
To Red Sox fans, he’s probably most known for reversing the call when ARod slapped the ball out of Bronson Arroyo’s glove during the 2004 ALCS.
West umpires more than 5,000 games in his career. Do you think he should be in the Hall?
https://theathletic.com/5100780/2023/11/30/joe-west-umpire-baseball-hall-of-fame/?source=user_shared_article

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Can you add a poll? This is a great subject for Sox fans

 

[jayhoz]

I'm just going to leave this here.

 

[Max Power]

Pros:
Umpired for a very, very long time
Had a great 2004 ALCS

Cons:
Failed to stop Reggie Jackson from trying to kill the Queen of England
Could turn any game into an ump show with his assholery

By the standards set by other umpires who have gotten in, he deserves it. But I don't know how many people go to Cooperstown to see the Bill Klem plaque. It seems odd to include them there.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

"Here's the whole play," West told a pool reporter. "He hit the ball to right field. He jumped up to try to make the catch. The fan interfered with him over the playing field. That's why I called spectator interference."

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2018/10/mookie_betts_fan_interference_2.html

 

[tims4wins]

"Here's the whole play," West told a pool reporter. "He hit the ball to right field. He jumped up to try to make the catch. The fan interfered with him over the playing field. That's why I called spectator interference."

If only he was there instead of Richie Garcia, the MFY dynasty may never have been born.

 

[BuellMiller]

If only he was there instead of Richie Garcia, the MFY dynasty may never have been born.

Or too bad he wasn't there instead of Tim Tschida or Rick Reed in 1999. #notstillbitter

 

[TheGazelle]

By the standards set by other umpires who have gotten in, he deserves it. But I don't know how many people go to Cooperstown to see the Bill Klem plaque. It seems odd to include them there.

I agree with this. There are already (by my count) 10 umpires in the HOF - https://www.mlb.com/official-information/umpires/history/hall-of-fame - and West is such a major part of the game that he should be in, too. The whole "Cowboy Joe" shit was annoying when he took over a game, but he got it done in 2004.

 

[mauf]

Seems to me that umpires who belong in the Hall of Fame are the ones most fans don’t notice but who are universally respected by players and others directly involved with the game. That’s not Joe West — he’s probably average or above-average in terms of getting on-field calls right, but he’s polarizing and much more high-profile than he ought to be.

I didn’t vote in the poll because it presupposes that West is a HOF-caliber umpire, and the only question is whether umps belong at all. I reject that premise.

 

[Montana Fan]

He granted us the nickname Slappy McBluelips. Yes, he belongs for the 2 calls he overturned and corrected during that game.

 

[NYCSox]

Between getting Bellhorn's HR right, calling out Slappy and the Roberts steal in 2004 and Mookie's play in 2018, I'd be happy to give his introduction speech.

That said this is a big negative:

Failed to stop Reggie Jackson from trying to kill the Queen of England

 

[ookami7m]

Joe West is an integral part of the story of baseball over the last few years, and that's the line for me on inclusion for the HoF. Plus 2004 alone washes away about 35% of the Cowboy Joe bullshit.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

He also invented the "West Vest"

 

[BigJimEd]

No. He was a mediocre ump. Not sure any ump should be but if they are they should be among the greatest. That's not Joe West. He umped a long time. That's about it. Honestly, If anything, MLB would probably have been better without him. Took away from the game more than he gave.

 

[pedro1918]

Seems to me that umpires who belong in the Hall of Fame are the ones most fans don’t notice but who are universally respected by players and others directly involved with the game. That’s not Joe West — he’s probably average or above-average in terms of getting on-field calls right, but he’s polarizing and much more high-profile than he ought to be.

This is correct.

But I would put Joe West in my own HoF for all the calls noted in this thread.

 

[E5 Yaz]

If Cowboy Joe swaggers in, I can see the bust of Doug Harvey looking over and saying "there goes the neighborhood"

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

Cons:
Failed to stop Reggie Jackson from trying to kill the Queen of England

This could be in the "pro" category.

I don't really know what Joe West did that was so noteworthy other than be around a long time. Thanks for 2004 of course but that's a reason for induction into the Sox HoF. Whatever, induct him, I'm in favor of a big HoF. Nothing matters now that Harold Baines is in and guys like Bonds, Clemens, Manny, McGwire, etc. are not.

Edit: oh, and I guess Curt Flood still isn't in the HoF either? Fix that too.

 

[Bowhemian]

I wonder how Angel Hernandez will feel if Joe gets in and he doesn't.

 

[Brand Name]

I wonder how Angel Hernandez will feel if Joe gets in and he doesn't.

Par for the course: Angel will think something he perceives to be inside is in reality outside.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Joe West is an integral part of the story of baseball over the last few years, and that's the line for me on inclusion for the HoF. Plus 2004 alone washes away about 35% of the Cowboy Joe bullshit.

How so? Making the right call is an umpires job. Unless one revolutionized the game in some way, I’m hard pressed to see how an umpire is deserving of HOF inclusion.

 

[Bergs]

Par for the course: Angel will think something he perceives to be inside is in reality outside.

Tee hee.

 

[E5 Yaz]

How so? Making the right call is an umpires job. Unless one revolutionized the game in some way, I’m hard pressed to see how an umpire is deserving of HOF inclusion.

Succeeding is a players job. Unless one revolutionized the game, should we be hard-pressed to see how a player is deserving of HOF inclusion?
It's the baseball hall of fame, not the players, which is why managers, executives, commissioners and, yes, umpires, should be considered

 

[ookami7m]

edit- @E5 Yaz beat me to it

 

[Murderer's Crow]

The best performance of an umpire is when they didn't screw up the game. Absolutely not. They're doing their job and that job description is identical to everyone else who does that job. I'd argue a 3b coach or bench coach who does it for a long time should be more eligible than an umpire.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

I completely agree that execs, managers, and other non players should be considered, but why Joe West? Most games is cool. I know players didn’t think much of him, but is there objective analysis that he was an exceptional umpire?

 

[Ramon AC]

Game 6 of the ALCS changed expectations around umpire conferences and the expectation that crews would get the call right rather than protect an ump who made a bad call. Crew Chief Joe West was aware of the moment and the stakes when those two calls got overturned, and the game is better for it. He should be in the HOF for his contribution to the change in MLB umpiring culture that made replay easier to roll out and will eventually enable automated pitch calls.

I guess I’m the guy who is excited to go to Cooperstown to see Bill Klem’s plaque, I’d whisper “Catfish” under my breath to see if he threw me out of the building.

 

[Tony Pena's Gas Cloud]

The HOF is a museum of the game, not some sacrosanct holy ground that only includes players. If you ask any fan 60 and under who the most famous ump of their lifetimes is, it's Joe West. He was an integral part of baseball for nearly a half century. He deserves induction.

 

[bankshot1]

The HoF is the Louvre of the ouevre of the game and umps are a big part of the game, and Joe was a pretty decent if controversial/colorful ump.

No real problem with him getting in.

Maybe he can run Harold Baines.

 

[Ale Xander]

Each fair pole at Fenway, plus the wall, should each be in the HOf before an umpire.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Each fair pole at Fenway, plus the wall, should each be in the HOf before an umpire.

It is the most famous pole in the game, ask any fan. An integral part of history.

one of the worst umpires in the game in terms of balls and strikes. So yeah, I guess his presence may accelerate people being open to robot umps.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29812877/major-league-baseball-umpire-joe-west-never-missed-call-just-ask-him

 

[jon abbey]

It is the most famous pole in the game

Ted Kluszewski?

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Ted Kluszewski?

touché

 

[gtg807y]

Is he Cowboy Joe or Country Joe? I thought he was the latter and am fine with that one getting in.

 

[j-man]

lord no

 

[findguapo]

This was the 1st non Red Sox incident that came to mind when I saw this thread:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRADU6P-q5g&ab_channel=JomboyMedia

 

[Beomoose]

This was the 1st non Red Sox incident that came to mind when I saw this thread:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRADU6P-q5g&ab_channel=JomboyMedia

Ok, now I'm a Yes.

 

[CFB_Rules]

How so? Making the right call is an umpires job. Unless one revolutionized the game in some way, I’m hard pressed to see how an umpire is deserving of HOF inclusion.

Recording outs is a pitcher’s job, so why is Pedro Martinez in the Hall of Fame?

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Recording outs is a pitcher’s job, so why is Pedro Martinez in the Hall of Fame?

Because he was one of the best at his job, supported by lots and lot

if anyone can show me some actual evidence that West was a great umpire, that would be one thing but most of the info I’ve seen him shows him as one of the worst.

 

[YTF]

As far as I'm concerned, it's a free country and Cowboy/County Joe should be allowed to purchase admission to any museum he chooses.

Seriously, I can't say that it's 100% accurate, but there's an old adage about an umpire having done is job if no one knew his name at the end of the game. FWIW, many a time when West took the field his presence was known.

 

[shaggydog2000]

I don't think Umpires should be in the hall of fame, but now that they've let a bunch in I guess I can't say they should stop, and I really don't care about the standards they use to judge which ones to let in. I would have more interest in debating which mascots had a bigger impact on the game than which umpires did. They were supposed to have none, and every second thinking about them puffs up their ego a little more.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Build him a whole fucking wing to plaster pictures of his crew’s calls in Games 4 and 6 of the ALCS all over. Add in his disdain for overly long games - which aged well in terms of the widely supported advent of the pitch clock - and you’ve got yourself a HOFer.

Get it done, Theo.

 

[Marciano490]

As bad as umpiring has been lately in all the major sports, it seems like an odd time to start adding them to halls of fame. Is any ref in for any sport?

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

As bad as umpiring has been lately in all the major sports, it seems like an odd time to start adding them to halls of fame. Is any ref in for any sport?

Al Barlick and Bill Klem are in the baseball HOF. (And Tom Connolly, who I’ve never heard of). Klem was the first to wear a chest protector, I believe? Usually if an umpire makes it in, it’s for some kind of change they brought to the game.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

He can buy a ticket, just like anyone else.

More seriously, I do think there should be a bigger exhibit about umpires, and West should certainly be part of that.

 

[Max Power]

Al Barlick and Bill Klem are in the baseball HOF. (And Tom Connolly, who I’ve never heard of). Klem was the first to wear a chest protector, I believe? Usually if an umpire makes it in, it’s for some kind of change they brought to the game.

Klem was the first to use hand signals to indicate the calls. I don't know if he's the first in all sports, but that's a pretty big innovation.

Joe West was the first to grow his neck fat to the point where it's indistinguishable from a foam cervical collar. Also something brand new to the game, but less important.

 

[CFB_Rules]

Personally I think the Halls of Fame should be players only. But if you are going to add coaches, or God forbid front office people/owners, then you should absolutely include officials.

Nobody besides the players affects the game more, and good ones should be commemorated.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

Klem was the first to use hand signals to indicate the calls. I don't know if he's the first in all sports, but that's a pretty big innovation.

Joe West was the first to grow his neck fat to the point where it's indistinguishable from a foam cervical collar. Also something brand new to the game, but less important.

Jesus, he has a family!

 

[CFB_Rules]

As bad as umpiring has been lately in all the major sports, it seems like an odd time to start adding them to halls of fame. Is any ref in for any sport?

Funny you should ask, the Pro Football Hall of Fame just inducted their first official. But here's the status of officials:

 

[Bergs]

Klem was the first to use hand signals to indicate the calls. I don't know if he's the first in all sports, but that's a pretty big innovation.

Joe West was the first to grow his neck fat to the point where it's indistinguishable from a foam cervical collar. Also something brand new to the game, but less important.

Fantastic.

 

[Sad Sam Jones]

Al Barlick and Bill Klem are in the baseball HOF. (And Tom Connolly, who I’ve never heard of). Klem was the first to wear a chest protector, I believe? Usually if an umpire makes it in, it’s for some kind of change they brought to the game.

As CFB Rules posted, there are 10 of them. Klem and Doug Harvey are generally ranked as the two best umpires in history. When I started following baseball it seemed everyone considered Harvey infallible and he was actually admired. There may have been a couple of other umpires back in the '80s who were well respected. I also think it may have been that way in other sports, but my opinion shouldn't be taken with the slightest bit of authority on the topic. It seems like something has changed over the past four decades that the only way an official is considered good now is if they are completely unnoticeable and left anonymous and even with statistics to track who is good and who is not, the good is ignored. That's not to be taken as any sort of evaluation of Joe West. I suspect a lot of it has to do with the increased power of the umpires' union to keep covering for the bad ones... and probably some undefinable way about how sports coverage has evolved.