Scoring question

jon abbey

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Jul 15, 2005
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So this doesn't matter to anyone but I'm just curious...

Zack Britton got charged with an earned run in the ninth today, this was the sequence of events:

single
passed ball
single to left field, run scores
fielder's choice/error (no outs recorded)
GIDP
ground out

Why is this run earned? If there are no errors made, the passed ball doesn't happen, runners are on first and second and the fielder's choice gets the middle runner, 1st and 3rd with one out, and then the DP which actually happened ends the inning. What am I missing?
 

DrewDawg

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What was the FC error?

Here's a way I can see to score it earned:
Two singles put runners on 1st and 2nd. FC moves runner to third (even if out is recorded at just 2B for example if no error) 1 OUT. DP grounder--DP not assumed, runner scores. 2 OUTS.

CLEARER:

First 4 hitters go (with no PB or error) Single, single, ground out, ground out. No assumed DP on grounders. That run likely did not become earned immediately. If next three hitters after second single had struck out I think it would have been unearned.
 

jon abbey

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Right, the DP is never assumed but in this case it actually happened, that's what is confusing me.

(the FC error was a throw to 2B that pulled the SS off the bag)
 

DrewDawg

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Right, the DP is never assumed but in this case it actually happened, that's what is confusing me.

(the FC error was a throw to 2B that pulled the SS off the bag)
Award that out at 2B, lead runner still advances to at least third. So the game situation is first and 3rd, 1 out. Next batter hits ground ball. Don't assume DP, assume 1 out.

It's convoluted, but I think that's it. Ignore that PB and error, that lead off hitter is still at 3B and scores on the DP grounder.

I think my favorite earned run/unearned run thing is how they can be unearned for team, but earned for pitcher.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Perhaps the scorekeeper determined that the error was the failure to go to first instead of trying for the out at second? If so, there is no double play in order, so you could reconstruct the inning such that the passed ball was harmless and the run would have scored on the ground out?

I don't know scorekeeping rules, but in this case, the pitcher actually got the benefit of the throw to second if the error was one of judgment, in that it set up two outs one batted ball when it otherwise would not have.

I have no idea if the concept of beneficial errors before double plays is part of a score keeper's arsenal though.
 

jon abbey

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No, it was a clear out at second if the throw didn't pull Didi off the base.

I think the answer is that you can't assume the DP on the ball that actually was a DP, which is pretty dumb but ok, thanks for everyone's input.
 

Average Reds

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I think the answer is that you can't assume the DP on the ball that actually was a DP, which is pretty dumb but ok, thanks for everyone's input.
It’s actually perfectly reasonable, as the scorer is not falling prey to the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome.

Put in simpler terms, the fact that a DP happened later in the inning does not mean it would have happened if the preceding play(s) had gone differently.

Yes, that seems awfully wonky, but it’s the right call.
 

jon abbey

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It’s actually perfectly reasonable, as the scorer is not falling prey to the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome.

Put in simpler terms, the fact that a DP happened later in the inning does not mean it would have happened if the preceding play(s) had gone differently.

Yes, that seems awfully wonky, but it’s the right call.
Huh? Everything about how earned/unearned runs are determined is about assuming the subsequent plays would have happened anyway, that's what this whole thread is. There is no logical reason I can see to alter double plays and nothing else.
 

DrewDawg

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Yeah, there has to be assumptions (what would have happened without error or PB) when assigning earned runs. But, since this is SoSH we overthink it.


Hitter 1: Single. Game state: runner on 1st, 0 outs.
Hitter 2: Single, scores runner after PB. Game state (for scorer): runners on 1st and 2nd, 0 outs.
Hitter 3: Groundball, error on FC. Game state (for scorer): assume no error, out recorded at 2B, runners on corners, 1 out.
Hitter 4: GIDP. Game state (for scorer): Runner from 3rd scores, no assumption of DP, so because out recorded at 2B is not "final out" of inning, run is earned.

That's it.

Had hitter 4 struck out for 1st actual out of inning, and hitter 5 struck out for actual second out I think that run would have been unearned, because now, without the PB and error, he would not have scored from 3rd base on the Ks. Those outs would have been the last 2 outs of inning had error not occurred.
 

Salem's Lot

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I must be missing something, what does the error on the double play have to do with the status of the run? The run scored on the single before the double play. Wouldn’t the pass ball that advanced the runner to second before the single make it an unearned run? Not trying to be snarky, it’s an honest question, I’m trying to understand the process better.
 

Average Reds

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We will have to agree to disagree while noting that official scorers are given such huge latitude that it likely doesn’t matter who is right.

:)

Edit: replying to JA.
 

jon abbey

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I must be missing something, what does the error on the double play have to do with the status of the run? The run scored on the single before the double play. Wouldn’t the pass ball that advanced the runner to second before the single make it an unearned run? Not trying to be snarky, it’s an honest question, I’m trying to understand the process better.
Because even without the passed ball, there would still be two runners on and no outs, so the subsequent plays matter. If the next two guys single, the run that had already scored in reality is earned. If the next three guys strike out, then it is unearned.