SBLII: What Did the Butler Do?

[Ed Hillel]

I guess the point should be if it really was a football decision, then he should have played in the second half at least when it was obvious what they were doing wasn't working.

Agholor did very little in the first half, he didn’t break out until the fourth quarter, really. That’s where Butler would have been.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt if they wanted to try something like sitting Butler. But, it obviously was not working in the first half. The Eagles completely gutted the secondary in the first half and an adjustment needed to be made.

Same answer. How was it clear the slot needed to be addressed at half? They did switch Gilmore and Rowe and it seemed to work ok.

 

[NDame616]

I can understand if for 'what's best for the team reasons' Rowe is out there due to the size of the two primary WR's. I can also understand that due to facts we can't confirm, that Butler was possibly behind the curve learning the game plan and may not have been as ready as Rowe. So for reasons that are completely about what's best for the team, I get Rowe starting and Butler on the bench.

What I don't get is out of 75 defensive snaps, Butler isn't on the field for any of them. So for me this is a mixture. Even if the football related reasons account for 2/3rds of the lost playing time (generous), discipline must account for at least the other 1/3rd. I'm hoping we get the real story at some point, but I'm not hopeful we ever do.

If there was a "real" reason, it will get leaked. Maybe by the Patriots or another team to decrease his value this offseason, maybe by another teammate, maybe by Patricia who wants to save face and is the "internal source" who tells Curran that he was 100% behind playing Butler but
BB had the final call. Word will get out

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Looking at the snap counts today, the Patriots played really tight substitution patterns. Flowers played wire-to-wire and Harrison sat only 7 snaps. Ten guys played at least 75% of snaps, so there really weren't a lot of opportunities for some of the guys. Wise played only 6 snaps and Adam Butler just 13. Weird that they decided to do it that way, and obviously ineffective.

The thought I keep coming back to is that MP and BB expected this beat down. It doesn’t exactly make sense, but why else so vanilla?

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I can understand if for 'what's best for the team reasons' Rowe is out there due to the size of the two primary WR's. I can also understand that due to facts we can't confirm, that Butler was possibly behind the curve learning the game plan and may not have been as ready as Rowe. So for reasons that are completely about what's best for the team, I get Rowe starting and Butler on the bench.

What I don't get is out of 75 defensive snaps, Butler isn't on the field for any of them. So for me this is a mixture. Even if the football related reasons account for 2/3rds of the lost playing time (generous), discipline must account for at least the other 1/3rd. I'm hoping we get the real story at some point, but I'm not hopeful we ever do.

That's a more comforting answer. Based on all the quotes, I've seen so far, I'm skeptical. Every play that Belichick didn't put Butler in was a decision.

He made a decision before the game that Butler was not the right option for this game at this time, and he apparently saw nothing that convinced him that had changed at all during the game. Perhaps he believed in a different level of execution by his players. Perhaps there was a particular thing that he saw that made him more concerned about having Butler in than keeping him out.

This is a coach who decided to keep a year-long starter out of the game. That he would continue to stay true to whatever it is made him think this was the right move is not surprising. I'm not willing to assume that Butler is a fuck up just because it makes me feel better that our HOF coach didn't whiff at what's supposed to be expertise. I want it to be true. But I just don't believe it.

 

[Prodigal Sox]

Wow. I disagree as framed -- defeat did not have one dad.

But this is a very strong take from a judicious, knowledgeable and highly respected source, somebody as far removed from Shank and Felger as exists in this market.

Put the popcorn back on. This has legs.

Agreed about defeat not having one dad. Also agree that Curran is probably the best, most level headed media person covering the team. But it's also been implied that Tom Brady Sr. is one of his sources so I judge everything he reports through that filter.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Wow. I disagree as framed -- defeat did not have one dad.

But this is a very strong take from a judicious, knowledgeable and highly respected source, somebody as far removed from Shank and Felger as exists in this market.

Put the popcorn back on. This has legs.

I agree with you that there was not one sole cause of this loss. I think Curran’s framing was reasonable, though, as I think they would have made the one extra play they needed had Butler played.

 

[tims4wins]

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt if they wanted to try something like sitting Butler. But, it obviously was not working in the first half. The Eagles completely gutted the secondary in the first half and an adjustment needed to be made.

Right, they switched up the matchups against the Seahawks when Matthews was killing them

 

[tims4wins]

Why aren't we talking more about Wise only played 6 snaps, by the way?

 

[Captaincoop]

A couple of "day after" thoughts on this:

1) I don't believe for a second that Malcolm Butler playing would have made the difference in this game.
2) I wonder if Patricia and Belichick really did just come up with this gameplan that excluded him, and the reason they never went to him after it was clear the plan wasn't working had to do with Butler's mental state either during practice this week or on gameday, and they just didn't feel he was up to playing at that point.

It's still hard to believe they thought Eric Rowe covering the other team's best wide receiver was the optimal approach, but those guys know a lot more about this stuff than any of us do.

 

[Buck Showalter]

Wait, the #3 starter was also the team's stud closer?

Forget it. He's rolling.

 

[lexrageorge]

Butler doesn't play end, tackle, or linebacker. And that was where the team's biggest problems were against the Eagles. And Rowe and Gilmore played well in the 2nd half. Maybe Butler makes a play that Rowe doesn't. Or maybe Butler gives up the same play.

It was a curious decision. And one I deep down have trouble agreeing with given the lack of information we have at our disposal. But there were lots of causes of the defeat; this one decision may have been a factor, but it's hardly the only or even the biggest cause of the defeat. Biggest reason: Eagles were just better.

 

[djbayko]

To me this has always obviously been a disciplinary issue, and nothing that has been said since last night has changed that.

Why is Belichick saying it was a "football decision"? He's being vague. Perhaps he's protecting the player. Or maybe he's even protecting the team's reputation or standing with the league. Or he's simply decided not to air dirty laundry - it's no one else's business.

Why did he go in for one special teams play? I don't know, but one play certainly doesn't kill the discipline theory for me, like it apparently does for others here. Maybe special teams was an exception - let's face it, for Butler, not playing D in the SB is real punishment. Or maybe the special teams coach assumed he could be used since he was dressed and accidentally stuck him in for a play.

Did Belichick hurt the team by putting discipline over team success? It's impossible for us to answer this question without knowing the details. For example, what if what Butler did was very serious and could have put the team at risk if he was caught by someone else? Bill has to worry about more than last night's game. If other players see that take place and watch Butler walk out the door without any consequences, that sets a bad precedent. Maybe you or I - or even a different NFL coach - would be able to look past it and put him out there anyways, but we also haven't developed an 8-Super Bowl appearing dynasty either. His coaching philosophy is what put us in a position to win another ring last night.

Finally, depending on what caused the discipline it could easily be argued that Malcolm, not Bill let the team down by doing something that he knew would have consequences.

 

[Reverend]

FWIW, for anyone playing with the Bill’s pride cost us the Super Bowl angle, I would point you to Bill and Bill and suggest that we consider that without that pride, he never bolts for New England.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Not a blue checked account, but the guy is in the sports news business. Probably trying to grow his brand, so take it for what its worth.

 

[Hoodie Sleeves]

Its utterly amazing to me that people assume that Butler would have been an upgrade over Rowe (or anybody else) after he missed all of the weekend events, ended up in the hospital on Sunday, couldn't fly with the team, and was noticeably sick in practice on wednesday and thursday because of the flu.

The simplest explanation here is that the dude wasn't healthy enough to play.

(and if Butler was caught drinking and smoking weed and out after curfew a couple days after being in the frigging hospital, he's an idiot)


Here's who the Patriots had on the inactive list:

Offence:
Gillislee
Britt
Hollister
Reedy

Defense:
Branch
Harris

None of those guys can play for Butler. None of those guys are particularly useful if activated. That's why Butler was still active. There's nobody on the practice squad that you're going to IR Butler for - you're going to wait until the last moment and hope he's healthy.

As to why he played in one ST play? Maybe they wanted to see how he would run, and how his lungs held up. Maybe he failed that test. Anybody have video of the punt?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Butler doesn't play end, tackle, or linebacker. And that was where the team's biggest problems were against the Eagles. And Rowe and Gilmore played well in the 2nd half. Maybe Butler makes a play that Rowe doesn't. Or maybe Butler gives up the same play.

It was a curious decision. And one I deep down have trouble agreeing with given the lack of information we have at our disposal. But there were lots of causes of the defeat; this one decision may have been a factor, but it's hardly the only or even the biggest cause of the defeat. Biggest reason: Eagles were just better.

Butler doesn't play end, tackle or linebacker, but he also does a lot more than just cover, and a lot of folks keep ignoring this. Butler is arguably the best tackler in the entire secondary. I would argue he is, some would argue McCourty, but he is without a doubt, one of the top two. So let's say he doesn't make a single play in coverage that Rowe or Bademosi or Richards also failed to make. I find that highly unlikely, but I'll grant it. What I won't grant is that he would have missed every single tackle in an important spot that those guys missed throughout the game. And the way this game went, one, just one tackle on third down resulting in a punt could have changed the outcome.

I was screaming five minutes in the game about the decision to put Rowe on Jeffery. He was getting burnt until he made a play in the end zone, and they held them to a field goal, but it's already been reported by Philly players that their game plan was to "pick on #25." And they did, over and over again. Like I said in the game thread, it doesn't even matter if they completed every pass or not, the fact is the Eagles found their matchup, and were going to continue to exploit it until they couldn't anymore. The point where they couldn't was when BB finally addressed it and put Gilmore on him. The problem is they still had Rowe, Bademosi and Richards out there running around in circles, when they weren't running into each other, so every single time they pressed up, they got beat over the top, every time they backed up, they got beat underneath, and then when the receivers made a catch or a running back broke through the first line of defense, there wasn't an open field tackle to be made. Butler is the guy that addresses all of this, and they left his ass on the bench.

I don't give a fuck if he showed up drunk, high or with a cane. After the first half, you have to come back to him and see what happens at least for one series. To not do that is absolutely unforgiveable.

And once again, I'm not saying BB should be fired. He's the greatest coach of all time. But IMO, he cost us another Super Bowl yesterday (I still believe he cost us one in 2015 with his bonehead decisions down the stretch of the regular season that cost us home field advantage, umm, I want to defer in overtime, umm), and I don't believe that is a very controversial opinion to hold right now.

 

[Buck Showalter]

Not a blue checked account, but the guy is in the sports news business. Probably trying to grow his brand, so take it for what its worth.

Ok - so a report about internal-strife (between Kraft, BB and TB12) comes out from a nationally known writer working for ESPN - who releases it under the ESPN website.....and SOSH collectively dismisses it as made-up dreck.

But now we are linking to some loser with a Twitter account (who makes a pretty big claim here) and tolerate him by stating he's "in the sports news business"?

Ok - got it.

 

[DJnVa]

Gonna be a fun offseason!

 

[Mystic Merlin]

PaulinMyBrch is Sosh's collective brain? Or are we kind of like a hive mind?

 

[Deathofthebambino]

I just got an email from a buddy at the game, and he says that the word around Minnesota is that Butler got brought back to the hotel by the police and had weed on him.

Even if so, I still think you bench him for a half. You can't, you just can't let disciplining one player cost the entire team a shot at the Super Bowl. Guys work too hard for a long time to let that happen, especially when you're disciplining a guy that won't even be here next year.

 

[Reverend]

Ok - so a report about internal-strife (between Kraft, BB and TB12) comes out from a nationally known writer working for ESPN - who releases it under the ESPN website.....and SOSH collectively dismisses it as made-up dreck.

But now we are linking to some loser with a Twitter account (who makes a pretty big claim here) and tolerate him by stating he's "in the sports news business"?

Ok - got it.

That same Twitter has already being discounted elsewhere in this very forum as just a troll account that ought not be taken seriously.

It’s not you against the world here—we can tone things down a bit.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Ok - so a report about internal-strife (between Kraft, BB and TB12) comes out from a nationally known writer working for ESPN - who releases it under the ESPN website.....and SOSH collectively dismisses it as made-up dreck.

But now we are linking to some loser with a Twitter account (who makes a pretty big claim here) and tolerate him by stating he's "in the sports news business"?

Ok - got it.

Multiple people earlier in the thread already pointed out this guy is a troll who has been known to make shit up.

Edit: Maybe a different thread but whatever.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Ok - so a report about internal-strife (between Kraft, BB and TB12) comes out from a nationally known writer working for ESPN - who releases it under the ESPN website.....and SOSH collectively dismisses it as made-up dreck.

But now we are linking to some loser with a Twitter account (who makes a pretty big claim here) and tolerate him by stating he's "in the sports news business"?

Ok - got it.

I'm high skeptical of the report, and it was posted here with a "take it for what its worth" proviso, and there isn't a single post in the thread that seems to believe at this point that the report is accurate.

 

[DeadlySplitter]

weed seems like a generic rumor someone made up and is getting spread around.

we're getting a front page Bob Hohler column on this sometime, aren't we?

 

[CantKeepmedown]

This was also posted on the Twitter, similar to what Death is saying.


This guy is not verified or anything, just passing along info he had. Would go with Butler's "they gave up on me" stance. Maybe the Pats were willing to overlook the curfew and weed, but him blowing up on the coaches was where they drew the line and just said frig it, he's out.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Here is the Eagles assistant coach on the decision to bench Butler. FYI, I believe the author of the article got it wrong. When I heard it earlier reported, it was #25, not #23.

Malcolm Butler wasn't the only person shocked by Bill Belichick's decision to bench him for the entirety of Super Bowl LII. Across the field, Eagles coaches and players also couldn't believe what they were seeing.

"After the first series or two. We were like, '[Butler's] not in the game!'" an Eagles assistant told TheMMQB.com's Andy Benoit. "They have 23 [Patrick Chung] in there. That's crazy!'"

Philly's coaching staff already knew that an average New England defense struggled to defend bunch formations and even before learning of Butler's fate, had planned to exploit that on Sunday night. And that task became immeasurably easier with Butler stuck on the sidelines for what Belichick described as strictly a football decision.

According to the Eagles' assistant, the plan was to go after backup cornerback Eric Rowe because "we could get Alshon [Jeffery] out there against him."

And why were the Eagles so confident that Rowe was a liability?

"We had Rowe on our team here in Philly, we knew that was a mismatch," he said


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/eagles-assistant-crazy-that-patriots-benched-malcolm-butler-for-eric-rowe/

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Multiple people earlier in the thread already pointed out this guy is a troll who has been known to make shit up.

Edit: Maybe a different thread but whatever.

Sorry, haven't had time to read the entire thread(s). I threw in a disclaimer. If the dude is a troll, then my bad for posting it. I didn't treat it like it was the gospel, but its consistent with some other stuff out there, so I thought it was worth posting.

 

[Van Everyman]

If that story about Butler, missing curfew and smoking weed is true (and that's a big "if"), do people still feel Belichick made the wrong decision?

 

[Boston Brawler]

Not a blue checked account, but the guy is in the sports news business. Probably trying to grow his brand, so take it for what its worth.

That same guy claimed that James Harden took a framed Larry Bird jersey off the wall in the Garden and smashed it after their loss there in late December. Obviously a phony and a troll.

Move along...

 

[Deathofthebambino]

If that story about Butler, missing curfew and smoking weed is true (and that's a big "if"), do people still feel Belichick made the wrong decision?

Yes.

Bench him for a quarter. Bench him for a half. He would have made his point. You don't bench him for the entire game, and potentially cost the rest of your organization a Super Bowl ring because of one guy playing his last game with the team. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Buck Showalter]

That same Twitter has already being discounted elsewhere in this very forum as just a troll account that ought not be taken seriously.

It’s not you against the world here—we can tone things down a bit.

Ok - fair enough.

For the gallery:

Can someone confirm / verify is Malcolm was at the 'Gillette send-off'?

The team flight was from Providence on Monday --- correct?

Was Malcolm on it?

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Ok - fair enough.

For the gallery:

Can someone confirm / verify is Malcolm was at the 'Gillette send-off'?

The team flight was from Providence on Monday --- correct?

Was Malcolm on it?

No he was sick

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Maybe Butler makes a play that Rowe doesn't.

I don't think for one second that Butler gets burned like Rowe did on the opening drive 3 and 7. He may have allowed the completion, but he would have had a great chance to make the tackle whereas Rowe ended up somewhere in St. Paul after overrunning the route. That was a huge early play in the game and lead to tons of clock getting eaten up and three points on the board for Philly.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Ok - fair enough.

For the gallery:

Can someone confirm / verify is Malcolm was at the 'Gillette send-off'?

The team flight was from Providence on Monday --- correct?

Was Malcolm on it?

No he didn't fly with the team, he flew out later in the week by himself. It was said he was sick.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Sorry, haven't had time to read the entire thread(s). I threw in a disclaimer. If the dude is a troll, then my bad for posting it. I didn't treat it like it was the gospel, but its consistent with some other stuff out there, so I thought it was worth posting.

You put a disclaimer on it, I was just responding to Buck who claimed that all of SOSH believed this guy when clearly that wasn't the case.

 

[jablo1312]

I don't he benched him just b/c of the weed. I think he wasn't practicing as much, the coaches didn't like his matchup in this game, and he clearly had some sort of negative interaction with the staff this week. Rowe and Gilmore on the 2 big receivers make sense, and Butler hasn't been good in the slot.

Everyone wants to rip on Bademosi, but beyond that big missed tackle he wasn't too involved. Richards got spit-roasted on the wheel route, but even more, McCourty and Chung just had really bad coverage games. This was not a sub in 21 and everything is ok game. I'm aware that people will respond with "the pats would just need 1 play more from 21 than Bademosi", but that can be true of every other decision involving who plays. As always, I think this staff has earned the right to make their own decisions. It would fly in the face of everything Belichick has done if he actively hurt his teams chances of winning a Super Bowl to make a discipline point and nothing else.

 

[tims4wins]

Clearly the game plan was big nickel. Bademosi only played 10 snaps. The 3 safeties all played 60+.

 

[Pandemonium67]

If weed was the issue, I wish they had benched Butler for as long as they benched Chandler Jones for the purple weed.

 

[Buck Showalter]

Yes.

Bench him for a quarter. Bench him for a half. He would have made his point. You don't bench him for the entire game, and potentially cost the rest of your organization a Super Bowl ring because of one guy playing his last game with the team. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Good job - can't disagree here.

I'd be interested to see any thought(s) to the contrary.

 

[dcmissle]

Yes.

Bench him for a quarter. Bench him for a half. He would have made his point. You don't bench him for the entire game, and potentially cost the rest of your organization a Super Bowl ring because of one guy playing his last game with the team. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I agree with you, but it's a closer case assuming there is credence to the weed reports. And, if one were to assume that there might have been problems in general preparation leading up to this game, it's a closer case still. But we're making a lot of assumptions.

I will say this. If there is truth to these rumors, it would be so easy for Belichick to throw Butler under the bus. It would take great discipline and a protective attitude not to. And if that's what happened, players are going to be appreciative of that. Not today, but some day.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

This thread is painful in every possible way.

 

[Reverend]

You put a disclaimer on it, I was just responding to Buck who claimed that all of SOSH believed this guy when clearly that wasn't the case.

Indeed. But he’s conceded the mistake and moved towards. CLl to constructively trying to put together a timeline, which isn’t a bad idea, as it’s what the responsible media should be trying to do now too.

Let’s beat the press (as usual) and sleuth this shit out, since Lord knows nobody’s doing any actual work today, yeah?

 

[johnmd20]

Yes.

Bench him for a quarter. Bench him for a half. He would have made his point. You don't bench him for the entire game, and potentially cost the rest of your organization a Super Bowl ring because of one guy playing his last game with the team. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I see your point about not taking away the chances for all the other players. But live by the Patriot Way, die by the Patriot Way. If this actually happened, these types of things have never been tolerated in NE. It's that commitment to discipline that has yielded all these wins over the years.

If that is the case, what can you do but understand that Belichick is very consistent when these types of things happen. And I personally wish Butler got a chance to play b/c how could he have been worse, but I understand why he didn't.

Note, this is all assuming these rumors are true. If they aren't, it would require further analysis.

 

[scottyno]

Clearly the game plan was big nickel. Bademosi only played 10 snaps. The 3 safeties all played 60+.

And pretty sure all 10 he played were during the times Chung was out with injury. Not like he was part of the game plan either until he was forced into duty.

 

[NDame616]

Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube but there's no way of knowing how Butler not being there impacted the safeties and the rest of the secondary. Maybe they collectively play better knowing Butler is there. May not be as easy as "Does Butler make one play that _______ didn't?"

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I agree with you, but it's a closer case assuming there is credence to the weed reports. And, if one were to assume that there might have been problems in general preparation leading up to this game, it's a closer case still. But we're making a lot of assumptions.

I will say this. If there is truth to these rumors, it would be so easy for Belichick to throw Butler under the bus. It would take great discipline and a protective attitude not to. And if that's what happened, players are going to be appreciative of that. Not today, but some day.

(1) I don't really believe the weed reports. I want to. Well, I kind of want to. For Butler's sake I don't want them to be true. But, I feel like it doesn't add up otherwise, and I have a need to make sense of it.

(2) All that said, if they are true, then I simply have no basis on which to judge the decision and defer entirely to the coaching staff. Team discipline is just something that I don't have nearly enough of a sense about -- in terms of the short and long term effects and how and what it says to the rest of the team -- to have an opinion. This really would be a in Bill we trust thing.

 

[Reverend]

I am resolved on my thoughts on this matter.

I do know that while I didn’t immediately realize Butler had been benched, I very quickly was wondering wtf was wrong with the tackling.

These things are necessarily linked, that much I believe.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

The fact that all these unsubstantiated rumors are flying around about Butler kind of shows the downside to Belichick's "no loose lips" approach. I totally get and appreciate that the goal of that strategy is to not throw players under the bus, keep the team focused, etc. But, as in this situation, it also opens up the field to wild speculation. If it's true that this was 100% a coach's decision that had nothing to do with Butler's health or any off the field conduct, isn't Belichick effectively throwing his player under the bus by not coming out and giving more detail on why Butler was kept out? If I was Butler and knew I did nothing wrong, I would be pretty pissed that people were now saying it was because I had weed on me, or was sicker than I really was, or whatever.

 

[rodderick]

Chandler Jones was hospitalized for smoking synthetic weed the week of a playoff game and he ended up starting against the Chiefs. Also, I like to believe that if those rumors were true, Belichick would've told Butler he wasn't playing days before the Super Bowl, which would make his emotional reactions pre and post game really strange.

 

[EvilEmpire]

If Butler really did have some issues during the week, I can understand why BB didn't think he was a good option for Sunday. A mixture of discipline and football issues, and maybe that brought matchup concerns they already had right to the forefront.

I think a big part of the Patriots success over the years is based on the culture created and maintained by BB. He's one of the greatest coaches ever, in any sport. He expects players to be focused on doing their job. Accountability is demanded. If he made a decision with those ideas in mind, it's fair to criticize, but I think you have to take the good with the bad. There has been a lot more good than bad under BB.