Saudi Pro League 2023-2024: Sports watching, or Sportswashing?

InstaFace · Sep 5, 2023

Won't watch it. Won't even note the results.

They have 4 teams actively sponsored by the PIF, aka the Saudi Crown, to create the illusion of competitiveness. They approached UEFA to have those teams play as guest teams in UEFA competitions and got laughed out of the room.

It'll go about as well as the Chinese Super League trying to buy their way into relevance a decade ago. Except in that case, the Chinese had a reasonable bet on an untapped market for good football, so while it clearly didn't work, they at least had non-stupid reasons for thinking it might work. Whereas this is clearly a vanity project and some clubs and players are just happy to take the money until it runs out when MBS gets bored.

PedroSpecialK · Sep 5, 2023

Footballers taking the money and the opportunity for generational wealth, I understand. Even if they've already made a pretty penny already, I can't fault someone for wanting to 3-5x their income for 3-4 years at that level once they've already won everything.

However, Henderson insisting he is not engaging in a pure cash grab, and playing dumb regarding the snowflakes at Al-Ettifaq greying out the rainbow armband in his welcome video, is insulting. It should be disqualifying for a future testimonial.

"I didn't know anything about it until it was out," Henderson said. "It's hard for me to know and understand everything because it is part of the religion.

"So if I wear the rainbow armband, if that disrespects their religion, then that's not right either. Everybody should be respectful of religion and culture."

Fuck that guy and this mickey mouse league.

bosox4283 · Sep 5, 2023

Bunt, thanks for starting this thread. I've wanted to hear some thoughts from our more informed and knowledgeable members on this topic.

In this first "big splash year", it seems that the Saudi League is both serving as a life-line for teams desperately wanting to sell players and a force that is breaking the market. I think it's sort of "fine" for guys like Benzema wanting to get a big pay day before hanging up the cleats -- he's won all that he's wanted to win and he's past his prime.

I worry a bit about the "market-breaking" aspects of the Saudi league. I think of Yannick Carrasco of Atletico and Gabri Veiga of Celta as two examples of more "market-breaking". While Atletico was eager to sell Carrasco for about $15-20M, he was an integral part of the team and player that Simeone favors -- but Carrasco wanted to go in order to get the wages that SA was willing to offer and he left after the European transfer deadline. Likewise, Gabri Veiga, a young rising star from Celta de Vigo who was supposedly being recruited by major clubs, chose to go to SA, presumably to take the biggest deal, rather than go to a top 10-20 European club. In both these cases, the Saudi league seems to be distorting markets -- even if the selling club is happy to maximize sale value.

Edit: I'll add that one part of the market-breaking aspect that deserves attention is that fact that La Liga was either #5 or #6 in terms of transfer dollars spent this summer. Putting aside Real Madrid, La Liga spent basically nothing. So, while Atletico and Celta are happy to get this lifeline from the Saudi League, the Saudi League is able to take advantage of this fragility by dangling appetizing transfer fees to teams and high wages to players. It seems to me that La Liga has no solutions to solve this problem.

Titans Bastard · Sep 5, 2023

I'm with @InstaFace. This isn't sustainable and it won't last.

SocrManiac · Sep 5, 2023

There are a few aspects of this for me. Some political, some not.

First, having a team with more financial means swooping in and luring players with massive pay raises is exactly how the powers in the game have become what they are. There's now a bigger financial bully in the room that will force teams to look at things differently. It's either going to widen the gulf between the haves and have nots or it's going to create some sort of meaningful change. I'm hoping for the change, but I'm betting on the gulf. This is going to cause instability and financial disparity beyond what's already occurring in the major European leagues. In England, I'd expect City and Newcastle are eventually going to cement themselves as the new Big Two and there will be something like a Rotational Five that have to cycle through the European slots. Chelsea and United are likely a step above at their current levels, and then you'll have Arsenal, Liverpool, and Spurs.

The next piece is the legacy. We have a first batch of players over there defining how guys will be viewed in the future. CR7 was already radioactive by the time he made the move, having alienated virtually everybody he was capable of alienating and leaving him only with his staunchest supporters. Neymar isn't exactly universally loved. Henderson has lit himself on fire. Benzema wasn't clean to begin with. Mané blew himself up with Bayern and didn't have many landing spots. Kante, Firmino, and Fabinho are older guys who get a piece of the "last payday" pass as they haven't seemingly made any overt statements beyond collecting the paychecks, but that could shift as the league's perception is dialed in. Saint-Maximin just smells weird given the Newcastle involvement. Wijnaldum, Laporte, Mitrovic, Mahrez, Dembele... I feel like those are the guys that will help determine what time in KSA does to your legacy. It definitely leaves a weird taste in my mouth to see Gerrard over there, especially given his involvement in recruiting at Liverpool. Mancini's move made absolutely no sense other than the paycheck and definitely feels like a betrayal.

As for propping up a regime actively committing atrocities, that's where there's no question that these guys have failed. Shouldn't be so easy to cast stones as I'm sure virtually everybody here enjoyed the last World Cup. I'm as guilty as anybody in actively pushing that piece aside. It seems a little different to be collecting the paycheck directly from the regime and becoming puppets for it versus playing for your country, but maybe I'm splitting hairs or missing the point.

I do ultimately think this will end something like it did in China, though I also believe it'll take longer and cause more collateral damage along the way.

Time to Mo Vaughn · Sep 5, 2023

PedroSpecialK said:
Footballers taking the money and the opportunity for generational wealth, I understand. Even if they've already made a pretty penny already, I can't fault someone for wanting to 3-5x their income for 3-4 years at that level once they've already won everything.

I find it pretty easy to fault them. Most of these players already have generational wealth and while it may be 3-5x their income for the twilight of their careers it's less than that for their net worths overall (again considering most of these folks already have generational wealth). Fuck all of them. I'm glad that Messi decided to move to MLS.

bosox4283 · Sep 5, 2023

SocrManiac said:
I do ultimately think this will end something like it did in China, though I also believe it'll take longer and cause more collateral damage along the way.

Good point about China. I forgot about the emergence of the Chinese League as a threat to the status quo. In fact, Carrasco went to China for a few years. But it seems to me that China has completely lost its luster and the Saudi League has completely knocked the Chinese League off this pedestal.

Kliq · Sep 5, 2023

I'm not an expert on the Saudi Pro League, but in terms of just legacies and what this means for players in their primes going over there, I don't think anyone is going to care at all about the performance of the players over there. It's a foreign league, nobody knows any of the clubs or the history, it isn't in UEFA and there is very limited domestic interest in the league, with a vast majority of the teams drawing under 10,000 fans per game. It reminds me of how Qatar had to pay for a bunch of people from other Arab countries to come to Qatar for the World Cup and "pretend" to be supporters to give off an impression of organic support like most other national teams have.

I don't think fans rate the quality of the league highly at all, and only the biggest Ronaldo sycophants will care that he scored a hat-trick against a bunch of players nobody outside of Saudi Arabia has ever heard of. Even if they continue to add more major names, as we've learned in MLS, signing a few big-name players that are past their prime does not translate to the overall quality of a side.

In soccer, careers are pretty short. Star players are here today and gone tomorrow. The roots of the game, and the reason leagues like the Premier League, La Liga, Serie A, etc. are successful multi-media entities is because fans buy into the culture of the clubs and the competitions. Win the league, or the domestic trophy, or Champions League, or even just beat your rival, and it means something. It will take decades for the Saudi Pro League, even if they continue to sign up players, to establish that status and even then, they won't necessarily be any more relevant than non-European leagues are like MLS.

SocrManiac said:
There are a few aspects of this for me. Some political, some not.

First, having a team with more financial means swooping in and luring players with massive pay raises is exactly how the powers in the game have become what they are. There's now a bigger financial bully in the room that will force teams to look at things differently. It's either going to widen the gulf between the haves and have nots or it's going to create some sort of meaningful change. I'm hoping for the change, but I'm betting on the gulf. This is going to cause instability and financial disparity beyond what's already occurring in the major European leagues. In England, I'd expect City and Newcastle are eventually going to cement themselves as the new Big Two and there will be something like a Rotational Five that have to cycle through the European slots. Chelsea and United are likely a step above at their current levels, and then you'll have Arsenal, Liverpool, and Spurs.

I think this is an interesting point, and it may hopefully lead to some sort of restructuring of the game, if only out of selfishness from the major leagues and the owners that make up those leagues. This is different than like City or PSG barging into the table when it comes to being a financially powerful club, they really just pulled up a chair and if anything, increased the overall wealth of all the big players sitting at the table. The Saudi Pro League is outsiders setting up another table and trying to raid the pockets of the established order.

InstaFace · Sep 5, 2023

This also puts in stark relief that Mbappe was offered something like $700M for just one year of his services, and said no. And Messi was likewise wooed by KSA but shut that conversation down early, probably forgoing additional income. That both of them had "enough" money to more highly value other things, such as "not being beholden to / afraid of my employers", is a privilege - but also one they largely share with some of the other guys who in the end agreed to take the cash. So it speaks well of them to say no.

nayrbrey · Sep 5, 2023

Thanks for the thread @Bunt Single.

I agree it’s similar to the Chinese league and it will eventually run its course, albeit not as quickly (5 yrs+).

The one caveat is if the Saudis can bring more money to the table to have another attempt at a “Super League”. Using their financial advantage they could have a massive payout to the top 2 or so teams in each EUFA league and maybe a few Western Hemisphere teams (Boca, Palmeiras, Club America etc) to play the Saudi top teams, fan blowback be damned.
That way they get the worldwide audience and attention they are after, but I can’t see that working out logistically.

SoxFanInCali · Sep 5, 2023

This is where we are with sports.

The Saudi League
LIV Golf
The NCAA
Qatar buying the World Cup
The Olympics mostly going to authoritarian countries who will spend billions on shiny new stadiums that will never be used again while lining the pockets of IOC members

And that's just what I could think of off the top of my head in 30 seconds. All of it just dampens my enthusiasm for sports in general.

Pilgrim · Sep 5, 2023

I guess I don't understand what the Saudi's objective is here. Are these supposed to be investments in building up the league and clubs, or are they just gratuitously spending money on luxuries the way you might collect art?

Saudi Arabia is just not a big enough country to sustain a good league. The gulf states seem to all have a goal of investing in tourism and entertainment, maybe to prepare for a post oil wealth economy. Is the idea that tourists are going to come see Mbappe and Salah? I can't imagine this will ever be profitable, but who knows if they care about that.

67YAZ · Sep 5, 2023

Pilgrim said:
I guess I don't understand what the Saudi's objective is here. Are these supposed to be investments in building up the league and clubs, or are they just gratuitously spending money on luxuries the way you might collect art?

Saudi Arabia is just not a big enough country to sustain a good league. The gulf states seem to all have a goal of investing in tourism and entertainment, maybe to prepare for a post oil wealth economy. Is the idea that tourists are going to come see Mbappe and Salah? I can't imagine this will ever be profitable, but who knows if they care about that.

There's a lot here...

1. It's bread & circus. KSA's population is heavily, heavily tilted under 35. Part of this is bringing top level entertainment home so that young men spend their time arguing about footie and not politics...or the economy...

2. It's soft power. KSA officials are quick to point out how Europeans and the US have used sports as soft power for over a century now. Indeed, the EPL might be Britain's single biggest soft power asset these days. KSA is buying their way in - football, golf, boxing, horses, etc.

3. They do a see a pathway to revenue. The Saudi league is now available in almost every country the world via various cable, satellite and streaming platforms. Along with huge PIF investments in the Club World Cup, the upcoming World Cup Bid, and general FIFA and UEFA slush funds...the PIF folks see a pathway to getting their top clubs into some kind of super league or expanded UEFA Champions League, which will make the media dollars that much more valuable. Package that with LIV golf, boxing, horse racing...might be a valuable package.

I learned this when the UAE bought up Chicago's parking meter rights..sovereign wealth funds don't invest on usual timelines. They look at ROI over decades, and part of that ROI is geopolitical influence.

4. Top Saudi officials get to pal around with world famous football stars. Don't underestimate this. They're buying cool PR that especially resonates with the young men in KSA (see #1).

Easy Ed Cota · Sep 5, 2023

Messi might have turned down playing in the Saudi League, but he's still a well paid tourism ambassador for Saudi Arabia, so he's not innocent on the sportswashing side of the ball by any stretch.

Warning Track Speed · Sep 5, 2023

It was a bit of a shock to see Saudi League scores on the Fox Sports 1 scroll during college football. Perhaps it shouldn't have been.

Kliq · Sep 5, 2023

Warning Track Speed said:
It was a bit of a shock to see Saudi League scores on the Fox Sports 1 scroll during college football. Perhaps it shouldn't have been.

Wouldn't surprise me if they were paying to be on there.

Dummy Hoy · Sep 5, 2023

I think they are sustainable, because unlike China they have a football culture already in place. I also assume you're also going to see the 4 state funded teams start to dominate the Asian Champions League and cause some trouble in the Club World Cup or other such competitions.

Of course the league is nightmare fuel for anyone with a conscience and anyone who is tuning in needs to check their priorities.

the1andonly3003 · Sep 5, 2023

Dummy Hoy said:
I think they are sustainable, because unlike China they have a football culture already in place. I also assume you're also going to see the 4 state funded teams start to dominate the Asian Champions League and cause some trouble in the Club World Cup or other such competitions.

Of course the league is nightmare fuel for anyone with a conscience and anyone who is tuning in needs to check their priorities.

Do those competitions really matter?

67YAZ said:
I learned this when the UAE bought up Chicago's parking meter rights..sovereign wealth funds don't invest on usual timelines. They look at ROI over decades, and part of that ROI is geopolitical influence.

Been living here 6 years, and I don't see metered parking as a high demand commodity as in Boston. More people seem to willing to pay for garage parking in the Loop or there is enough free parking for people to get around it.
OTOH, since the funds were immediately used to close a pension shortfall, there was no LT commitment Chicagoans to remember it except for Daley's desperation

InstaFace · Sep 5, 2023

Bunt Single said:
On a more focused "football" plane of discussion, the league now holds some of the best players in the world. I confess I do not watch SPL games. How good is the football, with quality players now participating?

The defending there makes MLS look like the 1985 Bears.

View: https://twitter.com/saudixtra/status/1694784287080366401?s=46&t=4ITn5Kl7wEF551OWXYwhmA

Conigliaro's Potential · Sep 6, 2023

The geopolitics are entirely different, but in terms of talent acquisition, the Saudi league reminds me of the NASL.

rguilmar · Sep 6, 2023

the1andonly3003 said:
Do those competitions really matter?

I’ve been wondering if the expanded Club World Cup was part of the calculus. The competition isn’t as important in Europe, but my Brazilian and Argentinian friends do attach a degree of importance to it. With the significantly larger competition, I wonder if interest will grow.

I always thought that they would push to get into the UEFA competitions. It would be incredibly stupid of UEFA to allow this, but a soccer organization doing stupid things for stupid money isn’t unheard of. Copa Libertadores is entertaining MLS clubs, so maybe it isn’t far fetched.

In the end, I’m probably over complicating Saudi intentions though. It could be as simple as “Qatar got the World Cup so we need to spend big money on soccer too and see where it leads us.”

67YAZ · Sep 6, 2023

the1andonly3003 said:
Been living here 6 years, and I don't see metered parking as a high demand commodity as in Boston. More people seem to willing to pay for garage parking in the Loop or there is enough free parking for people to get around it.
OTOH, since the funds were immediately used to close a pension shortfall, there was no LT commitment Chicagoans to remember it except for Daley's desperation

14 years into the 75 year deal, the UAE fund that bought the parking rights already realized a $500m profit.

No doubt the city of Chicago would not have raised rates as aggressively or invested as much in upgrades (like the app, which is actually easy to use & effective), but we’re definitely missing out on billions in revenue over the next 60 years because of Daley’s Desperation.

the1andonly3003 · Sep 6, 2023

67YAZ said:
14 years into the 75 year deal, the UAE fund that bought the parking rights already realized a $500m profit.

No doubt the city of Chicago would not have raised rates as aggressively or invested as much in upgrades (like the app, which is actually easy to use & effective), but we’re definitely missing out on billions in revenue over the next 60 years because of Daley’s Desperation.

About – ParkChicago

would have expected their color scheme to be similar to Newcastle's third kit
In speaking with locals, they seem to be knowledgeable of the bad deal, but not that UAE have a large interest (probably SSS)

67YAZ · Sep 6, 2023

the1andonly3003 said:
About – ParkChicago

would have expected their color scheme to be similar to Newcastle's third kit
In speaking with locals, they seem to be knowledgeable of the bad deal, but not that UAE have a large interest (probably SSS)

I’ve never heard people complain about who we made the deal with. It’s the how - Daley negotiated the deal in secret, introduced to the city council in the morning, and got it approved that same afternoon. The deal has no opt outs, no levers for renegotiation…hell, when we close a street for a parade, the city pays all the “lost” parking revenue! The whole affair was a microcosm of the worst of Daley’s domination.

Anyway, to me it’s a clear model for how these sovereign wealth funds could function - leverage their massive piles of cash on hand and willingness to wait a decade-plus for ROI to create all new investing opportunities.

bosox4283 · Sep 6, 2023

67YAZ said:
I’ve never heard people complain about who we made the deal with. It’s the how - Daley negotiated the deal in secret, introduced to the city council in the morning, and got it approved that same afternoon. The deal has no opt outs, no levers for renegotiation…hell, when we close a street for a parade, the city pays all the “lost” parking revenue! The whole affair was a microcosm of the worst of Daley’s domination.

Anyway, to me it’s a clear model for how these sovereign wealth funds could function - leverage their massive piles of cash on hand and willingness to wait a decade-plus for ROI to create all new investing opportunities.

Good point. I imagine that we'll hear about more of these investments in the next decade or two as cities deal with aging and crumbling infrastructure and a lack of funds to take on these necessary repairs and modernization projects.

Dummy Hoy · Sep 6, 2023

rguilmar said:
I’ve been wondering if the expanded Club World Cup was part of the calculus. The competition isn’t as important in Europe, but my Brazilian and Argentinian friends do attach a degree of importance to it. With the significantly larger competition, I wonder if interest will grow.

I think this is exactly right. It's the "outsider's" look to challenge FIFA hegemony.

In the end, I’m probably over complicating Saudi intentions though. It could be as simple as “Qatar got the World Cup so we need to spend big money on soccer too and see where it leads us.”

Oh no, this whole Saudi PIF sports washing endeavor is a heavily planned international political maneuver.

I mean, that's just an opinion but I've consumed enough media around this to combine it with a fairly deep knowledge of history and political affairs to make that opinion with a degree of confidence. There's plenty of information out there.

the1andonly3003 · Sep 6, 2023

It obviously must be judged by how many Ballon d'or nominees the league will produce!

rguilmar · Sep 6, 2023

Dummy Hoy said:
I think this is exactly right. It's the "outsider's" look to challenge FIFA hegemony.

Oh no, this whole Saudi PIF sports washing endeavor is a heavily planned international political maneuver.

I mean, that's just an opinion but I've consumed enough media around this to combine it with a fairly deep knowledge of history and political affairs to make that opinion with a degree of confidence. There's plenty of information out there.

I’ll take your word for it as my knowledge is middling at best. I am curious as to how this actually politically benefits KSA. Like, does Qatar benefit politically from hosting a World Cup aside from regional bragging rights? How so? It exposed to the world a lot of negative things about the country. And a World Cup is one thing, but the idea of having young, famous, wealthy men living in Saudi Arabia having grown up in Western European society seems to have the potential for backfire, at least in my eyes. What happens if a bunch of them demand to be transferred back to Europe? What if they dislike it there? Admittedly my vision of Saudi society is probably dated. I guess ultimately I don’t understand how this works as a political tool.

InstaFace · Sep 6, 2023

rguilmar said:
What happens if a bunch of them demand to be transferred back to Europe? What if they dislike it there?

I'm only like 90% kidding though. Mbappe has recently discovered exactly how retrograde these guys are when it comes to labor/management relations. We own you, you belong to us, you do what we say or you're defective and we will treat you accordingly. Everything has a price, even things that shouldn't, and once we've met your price you have no basis to object to anything.

Even mobsters had something resembling a code, at certain times and for certain issues. To MBS and the Qatar and UAE guys, there never have been rules, rules are for the little people. They have acted and will continue to act accordingly.

Kliq · Sep 6, 2023

A lot of these big stars also have incentives in their contract to be ambassadors to KSA. Prominent voices in the world who can talk about how great the country is, how nice and beautiful everyone is, and how free everyone is.

Mighty Joe Young · Sep 6, 2023

rguilmar said:
I’ll take your word for it as my knowledge is middling at best. I am curious as to how this actually politically benefits KSA. Like, does Qatar benefit politically from hosting a World Cup aside from regional bragging rights? How so? It exposed to the world a lot of negative things about the country. And a World Cup is one thing, but the idea of having young, famous, wealthy men living in Saudi Arabia having grown up in Western European society seems to have the potential for backfire, at least in my eyes. What happens if a bunch of them demand to be transferred back to Europe? What if they dislike it there? Admittedly my vision of Saudi society is probably dated. I guess ultimately I don’t understand how this works as a political tool.

The Athletic with a good write up on the relationship between KSA and Egypt … through the lens of Mo Salah

https://theathletic.com/4831549/2023/09/06/mo-salah-saudi-transfer-politics/?source=user_shared_article

politics Uber Alles

rguilmar · Sep 6, 2023

Mighty Joe Young said:
The Athletic with a good write up on the relationship between KSA and Egypt … through the lens of Mo Salah

https://theathletic.com/4831549/2023/09/06/mo-salah-saudi-transfer-politics/?source=user_shared_article

politics Uber Alles

This is a great read. Thank you for this.

I guess I’m stilled miffed at what KSA get from overspending on soccer players. What is their international political gain?

Dummy Hoy · Sep 7, 2023

I mean, if you hear Saudi Arabia, and your first thought is” Wow, they played some great soccer over there. I love watching the Saudi league.!” Instead of “ugh, authoritarian state implicit in fossil fuel dependence, as well as being human rights abusers”. Well, they win.

focusing on the sport instead of the politics can have an impact inside and outside of the country. fat, happy, satisfied citizens aren’t as anxious to complain.

rguilmar · Sep 7, 2023

I mean, I understand the concept of sports washing, but is there any evidence that this is what they’re doing and that this actually works? Has anyone improved their opinion of a country because of their professional sports? Does the world think better or worse of Qatar post World Cup? This is an honest question because the people I know think worse of Qatari society and their government because of the World Cup, not better. We obviously make up only a tiny slice of America political thought, not to mention worldwide politics, so there might be large groups of people who are influenced by these kinds of things who I just don’t personally know.

I can understand how hosting an event like a World Cup or Olympics can be good for tourism and to develop business relationships, but having players in a league is a different thing entirely. These kinds of events (WC etc) can also allow host countries to kind of hide the ugly for a month or two ala China. For me, having players live in the country carries the risk that they don’t like it and say as much, whether it’s now or after they leave and their contract is over.

Again, I get the idea. People say over and over again that this is sports washing, that the concept is to have people thinking about famous soccer players instead of a brutally repressive government. I just don’t see any evidence that this actually happens in people’s minds. Like “hey, I used to think KSA was a terrible place but CR7 plays there and says he likes it so now they’re A-OK by me”. What I can wrap my head around is that this is an attempt by Saudi Arabia to use sport to re- establish influence in the Arab world that they might have lost to Qatar because of the World Cup, but the Arab world by and large isn’t too concerned about things like LGBTQ+ rights in KSA. I also grasp how this can distract Saudi citizens from their government in a Gladiator sort of way, but has there been any evidence that Saudi citizens “need” mollifying?

I guess I’m having a hard time seeing this as much more than a regional rivalry between two nations who are like spoiled children collecting the coolest toys. Admittedly I could be wrong and Saudi Arabia has proof that the Messi-style ambassadorship has improved their standing in the world, and bringing in soccer players is the next logical step. I just haven’t seen any actual proof in my short time Googling it.

Awesome Fossum · Sep 7, 2023

I think you're right that this is an unproven strategy. I think you're wrong to be looking for tangible results in 2023 -- this seems like a long term project, imo.

Kliq · Sep 7, 2023

Wrong thread.

rguilmar · Sep 7, 2023

Awesome Fossum said:
I think you're right that this is an unproven strategy. I think you're wrong to be looking for tangible results in 2023 -- this seems like a long term project, imo.

This is a fair point

Kliq · Sep 7, 2023

rguilmar said:
Again, I get the idea. People say over and over again that this is sports washing, that the concept is to have people thinking about famous soccer players instead of a brutally repressive government. I just don’t see any evidence that this actually happens in people’s minds. Like “hey, I used to think KSA was a terrible place but CR7 plays there and says he likes it so now they’re A-OK by me”. What I can wrap my head around is that this is an attempt by Saudi Arabia to use sport to re- establish influence in the Arab world that they might have lost to Qatar because of the World Cup, but the Arab world by and large isn’t too concerned about things like LGBTQ+ rights in KSA. I also grasp how this can distract Saudi citizens from their government in a Gladiator sort of way, but has there been any evidence that Saudi citizens “need” mollifying?

I disagree here. Sure, on SoSH you won't see many people falling for that kind of advertising and marketing, but for fans around the world, maybe not American fans and maybe not European fans, but fans with less of an interest or grasp on global geopolitics, that kind of messaging can and does work. Nobody has more devout, fanatical fans than Ronaldo, and there are plenty of people that believe if he is saying KSA is on the up-and-up, they will not only believe him, but spread the message on social media and debate people who say otherwise.

I've seen this really first hand with WWE's relationship with Saudi Arabia. KSA pays WWE an absurd amount of money to run two live events each year in the country, that serve as propaganda shows where the wrestlers and the commentators all do press and talk about how great of a place Saudi Arabia is. This has led to some diehard WWE fans constantly defending WWE's decision to run the shows, because they are hardcore and will defend the brand no matter what. By doing so, they are by virtue, defending the reputation of Saudi Arabia. As someone that has written and podcasted a lot about WWE's relationship with Saudi Arabia, I can tell you anytime I've criticized the relationship, I've been bombarded by WWE fans who are quick to tell me that I shouldn't worry about human rights violations, that the US is just as bad as KSA in terms of human rights, etc. It's all part of the strategic plan to push back against the country's image.

This isn't likely to work in a lot of Western countries, and with educated people that can understand what is taking place here. But there are billions of people out there who don't have the knowledge or the curiosity to understand the sportswashing strategy, and that is who these governments are targeting.

rguilmar · Sep 7, 2023

Thanks for that info @Kliq. Very interesting stuff! I’d still want to see what the actual, tangible benefits are for KSA. I don’t what you’re saying and I’m not saying that influencing uneducated masses isn’t a form of power, because it is as we know all too well. But the ruling elite in Saudi Arabia are already immensely wealthy and powerful, and they got that way with everyone in the world thinking it was already a brutally repressive country. It’s probably unfair to ask for specifics at this point- increased tourism, foreign financial investment, improved trade relationships, strengthened diplomatic relationships- but those are the types of things I’d expect in return for dropping billions of dollars on this project. As others have mentioned, this is likely a long term program for them and results like that won’t be measurable for years, so I’m probably asking for data that doesn’t yet exist.

Kliq · Sep 7, 2023

rguilmar said:
Thanks for that info @Kliq. Very interesting stuff! I’d still want to see what the actual, tangible benefits are for KSA. I don’t what you’re saying and I’m not saying that influencing uneducated masses isn’t a form of power, because it is as we know all too well. But the ruling elite in Saudi Arabia are already immensely wealthy and powerful, and they got that way with everyone in the world thinking it was already a brutally repressive country. It’s probably unfair to ask for specifics at this point- increased tourism, foreign financial investment, improved trade relationships, strengthened diplomatic relationships- but those are the types of things I’d expect in return for dropping billions of dollars on this project. As others have mentioned, this is likely a long term program for them and results like that won’t be measurable for years, so I’m probably asking for data that doesn’t yet exist.

Saudi Arabia and similar gulf states are immensely wealthy for one thing--oil. Oil is a finite resource that the world is rapidly shifting away from that, and the people running these countries understand that. So the plan is to use the oil money to diversify the economy, which is basically the crux of MBS's Saudi Vision 2030--spending billions and billions to find ways to diversify the economy. In a country with limited natural resources beyond oil, tourism is a major goal. That means hosting major events, building mega malls and amusement parks and all sorts of tourist trap things to try and encourage people to visit. A major part of that is selling the idea that the country is not a regressive backwater, but a cool place where Ronaldo lives.

I was looking at data to see if there was an increase in tourism in KSA over the last several years, but it looks like data from COVID is still kind of curbing that.

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