Reserving Judgment... But What Did the Sox Do and How Bad Will They Get Hit?

gkelly53

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Aug 6, 2019
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Such crap. Makes me think that they don’t have anything and are doing anything they can to dig up something after wasting all this time...
 

Teachdad46

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Makes me think there is a lack of consensus among the powers that be with regard to the potential consequences of the report. They are asking multiple spin doctors to predict the backlashes that will come from dozens of organizational and individual parties. Lenience will yield wails of a fix. Harshness will yield wails of unfairness. Yada yada yada.
Just remember, I know nothing. Not a Thing. . Zilch.
But I'm old and have a good nose for shit when it happens..
 

steveluck7

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I’ll say again, I think the longer it drags on, the better it bodes for the Red Sox. If there was something worthy of punishment in the same stratosphere as Houston, the league should have been highly motivated to get it out and begin to move on.
This whole re-interview process that they supposedly went through sets them up to say “we took this investigation seriously. So seriously, in fact, that we re interviewed some of the parties once they reported to spring training just to be absolutely certain to look at this from all angles.”

what could they have possibly learned in the last few weeks? Players have zero incentive to “snitch” now since Manfred basically said no players would be punished.
Cora is gone. Dombrowski is gone.
 

jon abbey

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Mike Axisa used to run River Ave Blues and writes for CBS now. He has a twice a week, $3/month Patreon newsletter about the Yankees and anything related and in today's, he predicted Boston's punishment and if it is even close to what he is predicting, people here are going to go nuts. Honestly I don't even want to post it. He is often wildly wrong, but don't click on that spoiler without being prepared to be pissed off.

Keeping in mind, he knows nothing more than us and might be wildly wildly wrong...

5. Red Sox punishment. Have you enjoyed all the Astros sniping? Because we're going to go through it all again with the Red Sox soon. Last week commissioner Rob Manfred said he expects a resolution on the Red Sox investigation by the end of this week. "There have been a couple developments in the Boston thing that slowed us down," he said. From what I understand, Boston's cheating scheme was not as intricate as Houston's. They were decoding sign sequences in real time using the video room, but there was no garbage can banging or buzzer to relay those signs to the hitter. I guess the runner at second base would look in at the catcher, pick up the sign, then relay the incoming pitch to the hitter with a hand signal. Something like that. Rob Arthur (subs. req'd) found the Astros chased fewer pitches in the dirt when they were stealing signs in 2017, and the Red Sox showed the same tendency in 2018, but only when there were runners on base, lending some credence to the theory. Either way, what the Red Sox were doing was illegal. Can't use the video room to steal signs in real time. On one hand, their punishment may not be as severe as Houston's because the scheme wasn't as elaborate. On the other hand, the Red Sox are a repeat offender. They got caught using Apple Watches to steal signs in Sept. 2017 and were fined, and when Manfred announced the fine, he said this in his statement: "I have received absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type." Seems like a pretty big deal. The team got caught cheating, assured the commissioner they wouldn't do it again, and then did it again the very next season (and won the World Series along the way). Even if Boston's scheme wasn't as elaborate as Houston's, doesn't the fact they are a repeat offender mean their punishment should be even more severe? They were given a warning and ignored it. Pretty brazen, I'd say. This is my official punishment prediction:

  • $5M fine (maximum allowed by the MLB Constitution)
  • Former manager Alex Cora suspended three years.
  • Former president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski suspended one year.
  • Forfeit first and second round draft picks in 2020 and 2021.
The fine, lost draft picks, and Dombrowski's suspension follow the Astros' template. Dombrowski, 64 in July, was fired last September and I don't know whether he is planning to pursue another front office job. The suspension would mean he'd have to wait a year to do so, if he wants. As for Cora, MLB identified him as a key figure in Houston's scheme. He helped the Astros put a sign-stealing system in place as their bench coach in 2017 and then did the same thing with the Red Sox as their manager in 2018. Cora is going to get hammered (as he should), and because he's already parted ways with the Red Sox, it gives MLB a chance to put this all on someone who is already out of the picture. It's far too convenient to pass up (MLB wants nothing more than this all to go away already). Pleasing ownership is Manfred's top priority and putting the blame on Cora would accomplish that. I am pro-chaos and it would be hilarious if Manfred came out and said he's vacating the 2018 World Series title because he learned his lesson after so many opposing players were upset about the Astros' punishment. I'm not gonna hold my breath though. Boston's sign-stealing scheme may not have been as elaborate as Houston's, but they still stole signs illegally, and they're a repeat offender. That last part seems mighty important. They should get hit hard. Even harder than the Astros. Ultimately, I think Cora is going to shoulder most of the blame, and the Red Sox organization will escape with the same relative slap on the wrist as Houston.
 

Marciano490

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I still don’t understand this nonsense about only using the scheme with a runner on second, especially if the idea is Cora brought it over from Houston. Who takes a scheme and decides to make it less useful or effective.

Or, as a wiseman said, ain’t no such thing as halfway crooks.
 

OCD SS

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Unless there’s some suggestion that the Sox brought in a CF camera and dugout monitor set up, the situations don’t seem comparable.

What is getting lost in this for me is that the blame is laid at the feet of the players who supposedly “instigated and implemented the system”, but I doubt they installed the camera or set up the feed to a special monitor - that’s the IT department, unless someone is accusing Beltran and Cora of running a lot of cable infrastructure inside the stadium. The Astros plan seems like an outgrowth of Codebreaker, and not really something implemented by Cora or brought with him to the Sox.
 

JimD

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I’ll say again, I think the longer it drags on, the better it bodes for the Red Sox. If there was something worthy of punishment in the same stratosphere as Houston, it would have leaked by now the league should have been highly motivated to get it out and begin to move on.
FTFY
 

Average Reds

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Mike Axisa used to run River Ave Blues and writes for CBS now. He has a twice a week, $3/month Patreon newsletter about the Yankees and anything related and in today's, he predicted Boston's punishment and if it is even close to what he is predicting, people here are going to go nuts. Honestly I don't even want to post it. He is often wildly wrong, but don't click on that spoiler without being prepared to be pissed off.

Keeping in mind, he knows nothing more than us and might be wildly wildly wrong...

5. Red Sox punishment. Have you enjoyed all the Astros sniping? Because we're going to go through it all again with the Red Sox soon. Last week commissioner Rob Manfred said he expects a resolution on the Red Sox investigation by the end of this week. "There have been a couple developments in the Boston thing that slowed us down," he said. From what I understand, Boston's cheating scheme was not as intricate as Houston's. They were decoding sign sequences in real time using the video room, but there was no garbage can banging or buzzer to relay those signs to the hitter. I guess the runner at second base would look in at the catcher, pick up the sign, then relay the incoming pitch to the hitter with a hand signal. Something like that. Rob Arthur (subs. req'd) found the Astros chased fewer pitches in the dirt when they were stealing signs in 2017, and the Red Sox showed the same tendency in 2018, but only when there were runners on base, lending some credence to the theory. Either way, what the Red Sox were doing was illegal. Can't use the video room to steal signs in real time. On one hand, their punishment may not be as severe as Houston's because the scheme wasn't as elaborate. On the other hand, the Red Sox are a repeat offender. They got caught using Apple Watches to steal signs in Sept. 2017 and were fined, and when Manfred announced the fine, he said this in his statement: "I have received absolute assurances from the Red Sox that there will be no future violations of this type." Seems like a pretty big deal. The team got caught cheating, assured the commissioner they wouldn't do it again, and then did it again the very next season (and won the World Series along the way). Even if Boston's scheme wasn't as elaborate as Houston's, doesn't the fact they are a repeat offender mean their punishment should be even more severe? They were given a warning and ignored it. Pretty brazen, I'd say. This is my official punishment prediction:

  • $5M fine (maximum allowed by the MLB Constitution)
  • Former manager Alex Cora suspended three years.
  • Former president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski suspended one year.
  • Forfeit first and second round draft picks in 2020 and 2021.
The fine, lost draft picks, and Dombrowski's suspension follow the Astros' template. Dombrowski, 64 in July, was fired last September and I don't know whether he is planning to pursue another front office job. The suspension would mean he'd have to wait a year to do so, if he wants. As for Cora, MLB identified him as a key figure in Houston's scheme. He helped the Astros put a sign-stealing system in place as their bench coach in 2017 and then did the same thing with the Red Sox as their manager in 2018. Cora is going to get hammered (as he should), and because he's already parted ways with the Red Sox, it gives MLB a chance to put this all on someone who is already out of the picture. It's far too convenient to pass up (MLB wants nothing more than this all to go away already). Pleasing ownership is Manfred's top priority and putting the blame on Cora would accomplish that. I am pro-chaos and it would be hilarious if Manfred came out and said he's vacating the 2018 World Series title because he learned his lesson after so many opposing players were upset about the Astros' punishment. I'm not gonna hold my breath though. Boston's sign-stealing scheme may not have been as elaborate as Houston's, but they still stole signs illegally, and they're a repeat offender. That last part seems mighty important. They should get hit hard. Even harder than the Astros. Ultimately, I think Cora is going to shoulder most of the blame, and the Red Sox organization will escape with the same relative slap on the wrist as Houston.
The writer may be seeing the world through Yankee-tinted glasses, but I think he’s more right than wrong.

It’s been clear to me that Cora was going to get hit extremely hard based on the report outlining what happened in Houston.

The rest seems a bit overwrought (no one is vacating titles; even the suggestion is silly) but the delay, with the ominous rationale being to allow for communication to the “affected parties,” makes me believe that whatever is coming will be significant.
 

lexrageorge

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I do worry that Manfred will err on the side of extreme over-reaction. Which it would be if the draft pick penalties are as severe as Axisa wants them to be, but there are a lot of Axisa's in the league office and in front offices around the league. Almost like the dead hand of John Farrell coming back to haunt us with that idiotic and almost useless Apple Watch scheme.

Cora was probably getting a year tacked on regardless, but 3 years is absurd, especially as more and more info comes out that the Houston operation was run from the very top. Dombrowski's penalty is a no-op to me as a fan, as is Henry's wallet for the most part. But if those draft pick penalties come to light, it could take many years for the team to recover from the over-reaction.
 

Mooch

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Saying that the Red Sox should get hit harder than the Astros is asinine and pretty much disqualifying in terms of credibility. I highly doubt that one single owner (outside of possibly Houston) believes that for one second.
 

richgedman'sghost

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I just unfortunately get the feeling that Manfred has seen which way the wind is blowing and will punish the Red Sox significantly. Besides Cora and Dombrowski being punished for two years; I could see him vacating the 2018 Series. His justification would be the Red Sox are repeat offenders as a result of the Fitbit scheme. In total the punishment would be:
Cora 2 year suspension
Dombrowski 2 year suspension
Red Sox organization 5 million dollar fine
Lose of first 3 rounds of draft picks for 2020 and 2021
No international signings allowed for next 3 years
2018 championship vacated
As a Red Sox fan I really hope I'm wrong but after Roger Godell I've learned to expect the worst. Manfred seems like a mini Godell.
 

brandonchristensen

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I just unfortunately get the feeling that Manfred has seen which way the wind is blowing and will punish the Red Sox significantly. Besides Cora and Dombrowski being punished for two years; I could see him vacating the 2018 Series. His justification would be the Red Sox are repeat offenders as a result of the Fitbit scheme. In total the punishment would be:
Cora 2 year suspension
Dombrowski 2 year suspension
Red Sox organization 5 million dollar fine
Lose of first 3 rounds of draft picks for 2020 and 2021
No international signings allowed for next 3 years
2018 championship vacated
As a Red Sox fan I really hope I'm wrong but after Roger Godell I've learned to expect the worst. Manfred seems like a mini Godell.
If this happens, my interest in the sport takes an unbelievable hit.

i don’t think it will be anything close to this.
 

steveluck7

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I just unfortunately get the feeling that Manfred has seen which way the wind is blowing and will punish the Red Sox significantly. Besides Cora and Dombrowski being punished for two years; I could see him vacating the 2018 Series. His justification would be the Red Sox are repeat offenders as a result of the Fitbit scheme. In total the punishment would be:
Cora 2 year suspension
Dombrowski 2 year suspension
Red Sox organization 5 million dollar fine
Lose of first 3 rounds of draft picks for 2020 and 2021
No international signings allowed for next 3 years
2018 championship vacated
As a Red Sox fan I really hope I'm wrong but after Roger Godell I've learned to expect the worst. Manfred seems like a mini Godell.
I agree for the most part with your first 3. Manfred can go as hard as he wants on Cora and DD since neither is currently employed.
The org. fine is certainly going to happen but who really cares about that?

Beyond that, I do expect some draft penalties but much less than your thoughts.
I cant imagine a scenario where the championship is vacated. partly because in 2018 playoffs, MLB had security in the video room so we know Boston did not use whatever methods during that post season run. Also, Manfred set the precedent with his "piece of metal" comments regarding Houston's punishment so I can't see him dropping that hammer now.
 

Salem's Lot

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I just unfortunately get the feeling that Manfred has seen which way the wind is blowing and will punish the Red Sox significantly. Besides Cora and Dombrowski being punished for two years; I could see him vacating the 2018 Series. His justification would be the Red Sox are repeat offenders as a result of the Fitbit scheme. In total the punishment would be:
Cora 2 year suspension
Dombrowski 2 year suspension
Red Sox organization 5 million dollar fine
Lose of first 3 rounds of draft picks for 2020 and 2021
No international signings allowed for next 3 years
2018 championship vacated
As a Red Sox fan I really hope I'm wrong but after Roger Godell I've learned to expect the worst. Manfred seems like a mini Godell.
This isn’t college. Professional sports owners will NEVER tolerate leagues ordering them to vacate championships. It significantly devalues the goal of all owners, which is to make as much money as possible on the basis of fan interest in championship runs. If there is a possibility that every time that a losing team whines that a winning team cheated that the championship is vacated, fans lose interest in future championship runs and interest/revenues go down. At the end of the day this is business. If this weren’t the case, don’t you think Goodell would have had The Patriots vacate championships to appease the mouth breathers out there? He doesn’t do that because that’s the third rail for owners.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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That's not going full-Goodell, that's irradiating Goodell in Boston Harbor so he mutates into a 300 foot ginger beast that lays waste to the Back Bay with his laser beam eyes. From the details that have been reported there's no justification for leaving the Houston championship intact but vacating 2018.
 

joe dokes

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I just unfortunately get the feeling that Manfred has seen which way the wind is blowing and will punish the Red Sox significantly. Besides Cora and Dombrowski being punished for two years; I could see him vacating the 2018 Series. His justification would be the Red Sox are repeat offenders as a result of the Fitbit scheme. In total the punishment would be:
Cora 2 year suspension
Dombrowski 2 year suspension
Red Sox organization 5 million dollar fine
Lose of first 3 rounds of draft picks for 2020 and 2021
No international signings allowed for next 3 years
2018 championship vacated
As a Red Sox fan I really hope I'm wrong but after Roger Godell I've learned to expect the worst. Manfred seems like a mini Godell.
No one is vacating a world series.
 

lexrageorge

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If Manfred attempted to vacate the 2018 title, Henry and Werner would probably lead a revolt among the owners to remove Manfred, and would likely succeed. Other teams have their skeletons, and Henry is not going to take one for the team in the event that happened. As a punishment, it accomplishes absolutely nothing anyway.

Opposing teams are rightfully upset at how the Astros situation got handled. However, there has not been similar outrage thrown the Red Sox way. Instead, we've had multiple current and former Red Sox players going on the record saying nothing much happened.

Dombrowski and Cora could be traveling or taking care of a personal matter, which would explain some of this latest delay.
 

bankshot1

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I think Manfred/MLB has to carefully balance how hard to hit Cora, (or the Sox) to cover Manfred's ass, as Cora operated under the knowledge and umbrella of his boss Hinch. and presumably Luhnow. If MLB comes down harder, if I'm Cora I may sue MLB for a shit ton under the assumption "I will never manage again". And then my lawyers subpoena Hinch, Beltran (and all his employers) and all the records/e-mails etc MLB has. And while I'm no lawyer there is no way in the world that MLB wants Cora's lawyers deposing people under oath or leaking damning e-mails, or having Cora testify about who knew what when, or who covered up this stuff.

Making Cora the fall-guy could get real ugly. Suspend him for a year (2020-as was Hinch), eligible for reinstatement by MLB teams in 2021, and Sox get spanked/fined $1-5 million, for something (poor organizational controls) as a 2-time rule bender.
 

JimD

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There is no way that the Red Sox are getting hit with worse draft-pick penalties than Houston did. They will get smacked for not taking enough care after the Apple watch nonsense but unless there are revelations about how high this went in the Boston organization that are much worse than has been leaked thus far, Manfred will make his point with Cora's suspension and a multimillion dollar Red Sox fine and probably the loss of one first-round pick or several lower-round picks. That newsletter reeks of Yankee fan wishcasting.
 

amRadio

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If what we've learned so far via rumor is even remotely accurate - that the Red Sox primarily relayed signals via base runners - and the Red Sox title is vacated but Houston keeps theirs, I am done with baseball until Manfred is gone. That would be such an absurd turn of events that it would destroy the credibility of the people running the league. I am sure I am not alone in that feeling even though I am reacting to a fairly unlikely hypothetical.
 

moretsyndrome

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If what we've learned so far via rumor is even remotely accurate - that the Red Sox primarily relayed signals via base runners - and the Red Sox title is vacated but Houston keeps theirs, I am done with baseball until Manfred is gone. That would be such an absurd turn of events that it would destroy the credibility of the people running the league. I am sure I am not alone in that feeling even though I am reacting to a fairly unlikely hypothetical.
Anxiety about the Sox losing enough valuable draft picks to severely handicap their future is a reaction to a fairly unlikely hypothetical. Planning to exit the game of baseball because the Sox could have their 2018 World Series title vacated is the equivalent of stocking up on wine and roses for an upcoming long weekend with Margot Robbie.
 

SoxInTheMist

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Manfred just got roasted over the handling of the Astro's situation. I can't fathom that he would want to pick at that just forming scab unless the Red Sox did something on par or worse than the Astro's. Every indication so far is that they haven't. I expect he'll do whatever he can to keep story/punishment as low-key as possible.
 

tims4wins

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Manfred just got roasted over the handling of the Astro's situation. I can't fathom that he would want to pick at that just forming scab unless the Red Sox did something on par or worse than the Astro's. Every indication so far is that they haven't. I expect he'll do whatever he can to keep story/punishment as low-key as possible.
I agree. It's why he is waiting for the NFL to drop the hammer on the Pats for Spygate 2. He's been in cahoots with Goodell and will drop the Sox punishment 30-60 minutes after the Pats punishment is dropped.

Only 1/2 kidding.
 

The Gray Eagle

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Manfred just got roasted over the handling of the Astro's situation. I can't fathom that he would want to pick at that just forming scab unless the Red Sox did something on par or worse than the Astro's. Every indication so far is that they haven't. I expect he'll do whatever he can to keep story/punishment as low-key as possible.
I think it's the opposite-- he is getting roasted for not punishing the Astros players, so if he is perceived as going "light" on the Red Sox, he will get roasted even more. There's so much fan outrage over the Astros, that will only get worse if the Red Sox are perceived as getting off "light."

If he goes hard on the Red Sox, the only ones to complain anywhere will be Red Sox fans. Fans of other teams and the media will congratulate him for getting this one "right" and Manfred himself will be better off, facing less public bashing from fans and the media. I don't think he has a clue about what to do, and I think this punishment will be about making himself look as good as possible to everyone who has been attacking him.

Which means going hard on the Red Sox. He'll hit them as hard as he can without getting baseball sued.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but Manfred seems clueless and overmatched and has bungled pretty much everything he's touched IMO.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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the only ones to complain anywhere will be Red Sox fans.
People really, really, really hate the fucking Astros and Manfred. Even with the second time offender label getting attached to any Sox penalty, the absolute worst look for Manfred will be putting another notch in the Astros got away with it belt. It's going to come down to how much he can pin on Cora, since people now loathe Cora. The general sentiment I've read from neutrals or even rival fans is that what has been reported about the Sox isn't nearly as bad as the Astros.
 

Average Game James

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I think it's the opposite-- he is getting roasted for not punishing the Astros players, so if he is perceived as going "light" on the Red Sox, he will get roasted even more. There's so much fan outrage over the Astros, that will only get worse if the Red Sox are perceived as getting off "light."

If he goes hard on the Red Sox, the only ones to complain anywhere will be Red Sox fans. Fans of other teams and the media will congratulate him for getting this one "right" and Manfred himself will be better off, facing less public bashing from fans and the media. I don't think he has a clue about what to do, and I think this punishment will be about making himself look as good as possible to everyone who has been attacking him.

Which means going hard on the Red Sox. He'll hit them as hard as he can without getting baseball sued.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but Manfred seems clueless and overmatched and has bungled pretty much everything he's touched IMO.
Unless the Sox are shown to have done something equally bad or worse than the Astros, I don’t see how it’s possible he could possibly justify a punishment in line or more severe than what the Astros received. Maybe some fans would cheer it, but I can’t see other owners being happy about it. Sure, it weakens the Sox in the short run, but would other owners want the risk of getting over-punished as a “make-up call” like that if he is perceived to have under-punished a different franchise in future scandals?
 

amRadio

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Anxiety about the Sox losing enough valuable draft picks to severely handicap their future is a reaction to a fairly unlikely hypothetical. Planning to exit the game of baseball because the Sox could have their 2018 World Series title vacated is the equivalent of stocking up on wine and roses for an upcoming long weekend with Margot Robbie.
Made me laugh and made me feel better. However, I have a hard time not buying into The Gray Eagle's line of logic here. I think it will be in the best interest of Manfred and MLB's PR department to hit the Sox as hard as they can. I still doubt it's a vacated title, but I mean, the wine and roses are being stocked as we speak.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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I think it's the opposite-- he is getting roasted for not punishing the Astros players, so if he is perceived as going "light" on the Red Sox, he will get roasted even more. There's so much fan outrage over the Astros, that will only get worse if the Red Sox are perceived as getting off "light."

If he goes hard on the Red Sox, the only ones to complain anywhere will be Red Sox fans. Fans of other teams and the media will congratulate him for getting this one "right" and Manfred himself will be better off, facing less public bashing from fans and the media. I don't think he has a clue about what to do, and I think this punishment will be about making himself look as good as possible to everyone who has been attacking him.

Which means going hard on the Red Sox. He'll hit them as hard as he can without getting baseball sued.



I sincerely hope I am wrong, but Manfred seems clueless and overmatched and has bungled pretty much everything he's touched IMO.
It would have been difficult taking any action against the players as it would have been a bunch of people pointing accusing fingers at eachother. MLB was more interested in going after management, so giving the players immunity resulted in evidence they could run with.
 

Harry Hooper

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I think it's the opposite-- he is getting roasted for not punishing the Astros players, so if he is perceived as going "light" on the Red Sox, he will get roasted even more. There's so much fan outrage over the Astros, that will only get worse if the Red Sox are perceived as getting off "light."

If he goes hard on the Red Sox, the only ones to complain anywhere will be Red Sox fans. Fans of other teams and the media will congratulate him for getting this one "right" and Manfred himself will be better off, facing less public bashing from fans and the media. I don't think he has a clue about what to do, and I think this punishment will be about making himself look as good as possible to everyone who has been attacking him.

Which means going hard on the Red Sox. He'll hit them as hard as he can without getting baseball sued.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but Manfred seems clueless and overmatched and has bungled pretty much everything he's touched IMO.
Agree with this, plus the Sox being a repeat offender (almost immediately after 1st infraction) opens the door wide for the commish to drop the hammer.
 
Last edited:

Humphrey

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Speaking of alleged misdeeds, whatever happened to that complaint against the Pats that occurred in Cleveland in December?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think it's the opposite-- he is getting roasted for not punishing the Astros players, so if he is perceived as going "light" on the Red Sox, he will get roasted even more. There's so much fan outrage over the Astros, that will only get worse if the Red Sox are perceived as getting off "light."

If he goes hard on the Red Sox, the only ones to complain anywhere will be Red Sox fans. Fans of other teams and the media will congratulate him for getting this one "right" and Manfred himself will be better off, facing less public bashing from fans and the media. I don't think he has a clue about what to do, and I think this punishment will be about making himself look as good as possible to everyone who has been attacking him.

Which means going hard on the Red Sox. He'll hit them as hard as he can without getting baseball sued.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but Manfred seems clueless and overmatched and has bungled pretty much everything he's touched IMO.
You said it yourself, Manfred's getting roasted because the Astros players didn't get punished. They didn't get punished because MLB gave them "immunity" to talk. Not a chance that current and former Red Sox players weren't given the same deal. So no matter what happened in the Red Sox clubhouse, no player will face punishment.

Seems dumb as fuck to me that because the Astros players got a pass that Manfred would turn around and slam the Red Sox, for what by all reports was a lesser offense, in order to appease the people that think he should have punished Astros players.

At worst, it's going to be the same as what the Astros got, and that's only because of the repeat offender thing. I expect it won't even be that bad.
 

E5 Yaz

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Speaking of alleged misdeeds, whatever happened to that complaint against the Pats that occurred in Cleveland in December?
If only there was a thread in the Patriots subforum about this ...
 

cornwalls@6

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Can we please stop with the vacating titles lunacy? Like stop wasting bandwidth even mentioning it? Crippling draft punishments and player suspensions are slightly reasonable things to fret over. Vacating titles is foolish talk, and basing it on some completely un-connected media trolls rantings gives it no more credence.
 

djbayko

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Speaking of alleged misdeeds, whatever happened to that complaint against the Pats that occurred in Cleveland in December?
Hahahaha...we all forgot about that, didn't we? Don't worry, Goodell is saving that decision for a moment of maximum impact. Since the playoffs just happened, I guess it has to be right before the Pat's first game or when everyone returns to camp.
 

notmannysfault

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
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Dec 15, 2002
444
I know our Yankee fan friends...now mods... have an innate conflict of interest, but my God...

(btw, why does my phone auto cap God?)

anyhow, back to topic...

1. the Sox, in 2003 and 2004 had the best teams in MLB. many of us were here (or with each other for that matter) enjoying the most absurdly satisfying seasons... and most humiliating 2004 if you root for the Yanks...arguably... in the history of the game.

in 2003, the Sox fell a pitch short.

in 2004 they used that pitch to eliminate the Yankee mystique and aura leading to a celebration the likes of which none of us had ever imagined (yes. the Red Sox did tarnish the Mariano Rivera legacy that season...a player I admire tremendously, the best ever, but he could not close 2004 for his team. Ortiz simply outperformed him... and Millar and Roberts etc...we all know the sequence.

Again in 2007 and 2013, dominant teams.

2018, Sox win again, and finish with 118 wins.

summary: there's nothing to see here yet.

I want each season to be perfection, but if they did something they thought was borderline legit at best. cheating at worst, and the lawyers for MLB+public perception get in the way because the Commissioner so says (as is his right):

Then I say if the punishment includes any/all of the following:

-- take the 2018 title away? unlikely but a worst case scenario.

-- draft picks? given the hit or miss rate, that is a financial penalty... I'm sure a study has been done where the late first round pick nets more in trade value than in on field performance...I thought Craig Hansen was MLB ready...I was dead wrong. Appparently people smarter than I am agreed.

-- fines... yep got it. sorry JWH and crew.

-- suspensions to bad actors; this I can handle and actually agree with.

and finally:

-- the notion that recent Sox were cheaters: I'm not proud of this but can accept it because

--they sucked at cheating least year.

but more importantly:

-- on this site since 2001, the appreciation we have shared has been superior to that of any MLB franchise community by leaps and bounds. this is a place of legitimate shared joy for longtime members... in a kind of otherwise fucked up world in many ways I come here, though rarely post since around 2007-8 to commune with the haves after 30 years of being a have-not.

So any "fear" of punishment needs to be fully vetted, published and the verdict rendered before I even pretend to give a fuck.

don't get me wrong: I don't excuse the 2018 findings, should they be contrary to all that the Henry-era team has claimed and accomplished.

but if 2018 were to somehow be erased:

this is still the most enjoyable ride a Sox fan under 100 years old could imagine and at the very least, I will read the Commissioner's office opinion before I join the internet naysayers.

I am 43: I saw Mariano Rivera turned into the same type of goat that many folks considered reserved only for Bill Buckner forever.

Neither characterization was deserved (I fully acquitted Buckner personally after several VCR rewatchings of the game in '87), but here we are nonetheless, so:

This is a quality long term community of fans. at this point, let's read the report first. Many of these 'influencer clickbait" posts used to be intolerable on the main board.

Times change. but if an admitted nyyfans poster needs to introduce and explain the identity of a source is in so much detail... maybe we reserve outrage for a week, no matter how bad the verdict ultimately proves to be?

Posted respectfully.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
48,676
If you mean me, while I am obviously a Yankees fan, I have been proudly permabanned from nyyfans for a few years now, in part because of their ridiculousness but even more I think because of my high-profile presence here.

Also Axisa is not the one who talked about vacating titles, which is obviously IMO not going to happen, it was a poster above who started that.
 

OCD SS

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Is it not so simple to say that Manfred did not have the Astros vacate 2017 for a much worse offense, so it will not even be an option here? If the commissioner is going to fall on his face talking about “pieces of metal”, I’m not so worried about him over-correcting and punishing the Sox.

It seems that unless the investigation turned up much more serious cheating, this is not something to worry about. All we’ve heard is writers “hearing that” the penalty will fall this way or that, and no actual facts. In the absence of those facts people are filling in whatever they feel like hearing.
 

Flunky

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Jan 3, 2009
1,759
CT
Anyone mentioning vacating titles is trolling. I mean, there are idiots out there talking about how MLB should force the Astros owner to sell the team and then require the team to relocate. It's like some fever dream revenge fantasy.
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
7,080
I would think that the last thing Manfred wants to do is give this story fresh oxygen. He has every incentive to hit the Sox with fines and some draft penalties to send a message to a two-time offender, but otherwise declare 'nothing much to see here'.
 

Wallball Tingle

union soap
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
1,809
Vacating a title will never ever ever happen in this scenario, but honestly I'd be amused if they did this. They gonna take my memories and my World Series box set too?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Jan 23, 2009
11,619
Maine
What amuses me about all the vacating titles nonsense is that no one benefits from doing that. So you "vacate" the title, it's not like the Miss America pageant where the crown then goes to the runner-up. If MLB vacated the Astros and/or Red Sox titles, it's not like they will ship the trophies and rings to Chavez Ravine. There simply is no World Series champ for that year. What's the point?
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
What amuses me about all the vacating titles nonsense is that no one benefits from doing that. So you "vacate" the title, it's not like the Miss America pageant where the crown then goes to the runner-up. If MLB vacated the Astros and/or Red Sox titles, it's not like they will ship the trophies and rings to Chavez Ravine. There simply is no World Series champ for that year. What's the point?
Yeah, cycling awarded the 2006 Tour de France to the runner up (Oscar Pereiro) after Floyd Landis was bounced. Within 6 months we were all talking about how Pereiro got dinged in a test himself. Nice work. Armstrong's titles were canceled several years later and just left vacant, for probably that reason. Here even if you vacate, which seems like a stretch even for 2017, actually handing the title to the next team is even crazier IMO.
 

Le Bastonois

lurker
Jun 16, 2019
62
Houston is far, far away, but MLB Headquarters, 245 Park Avenue, is right around the corner.
Red Sox Nation will storm the Bastille.

This ain't The Colt 45's expansion team. This is a cornerstone of the institution. Tread carefully Manfred.