Refs gone wild: a place to complain about NBA referees and propose solutions to improving officiating

kazuneko

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I hate complaining about refs, but Jaylen's Tech in the first quarter for clapping was truly insane. There is really no standard for getting a tech for complaining about a foul in the NBA.
Yes, this league needs to hold their refs more accountable. Techs should not be used for things like clapping or raising arms. It’s just not important. The only one that cares are the refs themselves -and nobody is watching to see them play. This is the most frustrating part of the NBA’s eternal, officiating problem - because it’s the most fixable. The game itself is almost impossible to officiate well, so there will always be issues with that but they don’t need to compound the problem by calling unnecessary technicals.
 

Kliq

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Yes, this league needs to hold their refs more accountable. Techs should not be used for things like clapping or raising arms. It’s just not important. The only one that cares are the refs themselves -and nobody is watching to see them play. This is the most frustrating part of the NBA’s eternal, officiating problem - because it’s the most fixable. The game itself is almost impossible to officiate well, so there will always be issues with that but they don’t need to compound the problem by calling unnecessary technicals.
I don't even really care about the clapping being called a T. It just seems like sometimes players get away with a ton of foul protest, and then you have JB with a very mild display of discontent with a lack of call and he picks up a T. There is no consistency from call to call in that regard, every game has probably a minimum of 10 protests from players that are more dramatic than what JB did.
 

kazuneko

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I don't even really care about the clapping being called a T. It just seems like sometimes players get away with a ton of foul protest, and then you have JB with a very mild display of discontent with a lack of call and he picks up a T. There is no consistency from call to call in that regard, every game has probably a minimum of 10 protests from players that are more dramatic than what JB did.
Right. That’s another huge issue. But I don’t think you are going to ever get rid of clapping or raising arms even if they were more consistent and I don’t see why anyone would care (other than the refs) if they did. It’s almost as bad as the stupid hanging on the rim tech, which seems borderline OCD. I mean, who gives a fuck if a guy wants to hang on the rim.
 

lars10

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Right. That’s another huge issue. But I don’t think you are going to ever get rid of clapping or raising arms even if they were more consistent and I don’t see why anyone would care (other than the refs) if they did. It’s almost as bad as the stupid hanging on the rim tech, which seems borderline OCD. I mean, who gives a fuck if a guy wants to hang on the rim.
I don’t think you want NBA sized players hanging on the rim all the time.. I wonder if they can actually bend them slightly if allowed to hand on them.. and of course Shaq when he used to break backboards. And it can be seen as taunting.. but it should def be a slower whistle than it has been at times this year.
 

the moops

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KP’s and Joker’s were also pretty weak. The standard should be a set standard for all players and not based on their individual personalities as it seems to be.
Jokic seemed the most appropriate. He didn't just give the ref a hand clap, he seemed to be bitching the whole way up the court
 

lovegtm

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Jokic seemed the most appropriate. He didn't just give the ref a hand clap, he seemed to be bitching the whole way up the court
Yeah, Jokic's was of the standard "ref completely blows the call and then compounds the mistake with a T" variety.

Jaylen's was.....man, Brothers shouldn't be near an NBA court if he is going to call that a T.
 

kazuneko

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I don’t think you want NBA sized players hanging on the rim all the time.. I wonder if they can actually bend them slightly if allowed to hand on them.. and of course Shaq when he used to break backboards. And it can be seen as taunting.. but it should def be a slower whistle than it has been at times this year.
If there has been issues related to the rims being out of alignment after these types of dunks the NBA should talk about that issue, they haven’t which makes me pretty certain this is just the typical NBA peevishness that leads to clapping (sometimes) also being a tech.
Honestly, the ref culture of the NBA just seems ridiculously thin-skinned compared to other sports, particularly the NFL. I actually have a lot of respect for the professionalism of NFL refs as you often see them take a ton of abuse from coaches and they respond with a stoic indifference while continuing to focus on the game. The NBA refs, by comparison, appear overly sensitive and self-focused.
 

chilidawg

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I don't even really care about the clapping being called a T. It just seems like sometimes players get away with a ton of foul protest, and then you have JB with a very mild display of discontent with a lack of call and he picks up a T. There is no consistency from call to call in that regard, every game has probably a minimum of 10 protests from players that are more dramatic than what JB did.
Kudos to SVG for calling out exactly this during the telecast.
 

lars10

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Jokic seemed the most appropriate. He didn't just give the ref a hand clap, he seemed to be bitching the whole way up the court
You're probably right.. I just apply TDGS (The Draymond Green Standard) to techs.. if it's something he isn't given a tech for then it shouldn't be a tech for anyone else.
 

lars10

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If there has been issues related to the rims being out of alignment after these types of dunks the NBA should talk about that issue, they haven’t which makes me pretty certain this is just the typical NBA peevishness that leads to clapping (sometimes) also being a tech.
Honestly, the ref culture of the NBA just seems ridiculously thin-skinned compared to other sports, particularly the NFL. I actually have a lot of respect for the professionalism of NFL refs as you often see them take a ton of abuse from coaches and they respond with a stoic indifference while continuing to focus on the game. The NBA refs, by comparison, appear overly sensitive and self-focused.
Yeah... when you watch how NFL refs are absolutely berated all game you sort of wonder why NBA refs need techs for complaining/dissent. Other sports do have sensitive refs though.. baseball is basically as bad as basketball (they may actually benefit from a two step tech system rather than throwing players out for complaining the first time). Soccer is similarly sensitive with yellow cards...but players often have to do a lot more to earn one typically. The NBA is probably the most sensitive and wants its refs to be treated as infallible.
 

kazuneko

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Yeah... when you watch how NFL refs are absolutely berated all game you sort of wonder why NBA refs need techs for complaining/dissent. Other sports do have sensitive refs though.. baseball is basically as bad as basketball (they may actually benefit from a two step tech system rather than throwing players out for complaining the first time). Soccer is similarly sensitive with yellow cards...but players often have to do a lot more to earn one typically. The NBA is probably the most sensitive and wants its refs to be treated as infallible.
Which is ironic considering it is the most difficult sport to officiate, making ref error a fundamental characteristic of the game.
 

Jimbodandy

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Not bad for those that like to litigate ref-ball/fouls

ALSO I know he's persona non grata around here, but Simmons/Rusillo on NBA reffing post-All-Star game.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5yEfxvoHqQ
I don't know about persona non grata, just more disappointment for me that he has generally lost his fastball.

That said, his comments about the officiating are pretty solid. I'm all for fewer whistles--free throws are like 4-pitch intentional walks and extra points to me--boring. But changing how things are officiated mid-game sucks for players and changing it up mid-season fucks with front offices who build out their teams before the season started. IMO allowing everyone to body folks kinda mitigates the advantages that we have at guard with Jrue and DWhite being able to defend without fouling. And frankly I think it hurts Tatum and the bigs as well defensively, who are good at defending without fouling. I'd be very worried if my team's playoff hope hung on one of those ball-dominant players who lives at the free throw line.

Should be easy enough to run the numbers over the rest of the season to see whether there's a real impact in fouls called and FTA. Good news is that playoff seeding is not a concern for us. But since the playoffs are historically already called differently from the regular season, it could be a slugfest out there this year. That would really suck for us. When you're the best team, you never want to be in a slugfest.
 

benhogan

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I don't know about persona non grata, just more disappointment for me that he has generally lost his fastball.

That said, his comments about the officiating are pretty solid. I'm all for fewer whistles--free throws are like 4-pitch intentional walks and extra points to me--boring. But changing how things are officiated mid-game sucks for players and changing it up mid-season fucks with front offices who build out their teams before the season started. IMO allowing everyone to body folks kinda mitigates the advantages that we have at guard with Jrue and DWhite being able to defend without fouling. And frankly I think it hurts Tatum and the bigs as well defensively, who are good at defending without fouling. I'd be very worried if my team's playoff hope hung on one of those ball-dominant players who lives at the free throw line.

Should be easy enough to run the numbers over the rest of the season to see whether there's a real impact in fouls called and FTA. Good news is that playoff seeding is not a concern for us. But since the playoffs are historically already called differently from the regular season, it could be a slugfest out there this year. That would really suck for us. When you're the best team, you never want to be in a slugfest.
Bill's comments are mostly tongue-in-cheek, mixed in with some outrageous claims (to get a reaction).
Harmless sports banter IMO.

The Celtics have zero foul grifters on the roster. I believe it hurts the Lakers, Harden, Trae Young, Luka, & potentially Joker since hacking in the lane could slow him down.

Boston wins a 3-point contest against the league if the lane is full of Laimbeers & Mahorns. Right?
 

Jimbodandy

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Bill's comments are mostly tongue-in-cheek, mixed in with some outrageous claims (to get a reaction).
Harmless sports banter IMO.

The Celtics have zero foul grifters on the roster. I believe it hurts the Lakers, Harden, Trae Young, Luka, & potentially Joker since hacking in the lane could slow him down.

Boston wins a 3-point contest against the league if the lane is full of Laimbeers & Mahorns. Right?
Yeah sure. It's just the first time in like 15 years when I feel like we are the best team in basketball, and a rockfight levels the playing field somewhat. It's like the old urban legends about the Bruins turning up the ice temperature when Montreal came to town to slush things up against a superior skilled team. We're still the better team, and the rules are the rules. However they call it, it it what it is. Even game to game in the playoffs, you're going to get a Zarba game, a Brothers game, maybe even Davis. So one night to the next will be different. But I'd just rather not watch the lane full of McFilthy and McNasty. It does hurt other teams worse though.
 

Van Everyman

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Glad the game was in LA, otherwise there would be all sorts of whining from the Lakerazzi. Hate to be whoever is responsible for the issue as it probably had some impact on the game.
 

Humphrey

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Glad the game was in LA, otherwise there would be all sorts of whining from the Lakerazzi. Hate to be whoever is responsible for the issue as it probably had some impact on the game.
What had a big impact on the game was Lebron throwing up a miracle three to cut the lead to 4; then down the other end the Lakers knocked the ball out of Green's hand when he grabbed a rebound. The Lakers challenged that Green was out of bounds, which he was by the slimmest of margins. But when they did that review, they reviewed Lebron's three and found out he stepped on the sideline. So the Lakers didn't lose 1 point, they lost 3.
When the Lakers didn't score off of the possession that had numerous shot clock malfunctions and the Warriors came down and got two points, the game was essentially over.
 

snowmanny

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I know they’ve reviewed those out of bounds threes and on the line threes at the next stoppage many times before. There’s no limit to how long they can wait to take away points, right?
 

lovegtm

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So this is an obvious travel, right? Felt it was absurd that it wasn’t called but also was surprised by the reaction of the announcers who seemed to think it was an impressive play..
Coby White travel?
I thought so too at the time, but Coby is blocking the ball with his body, so I can't see whether his hand goes under the ball. It looked like a double dribble from my angle, but it's also possible to execute that move legally.

No one on the Celtics reacted like it was a travel, and they all had better views than I did.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Another acknowledged game-changing mistake last night in Clips - Sixers game

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39824611/crew-chief-admits-missed-foul-76ers-final-drive-loss-clippers

Obviously one problem is they blew a fairly obvious call (though, in the replay, the shot from the baseline does not show it, so positioning matters a great deal here).

The other is that they can't review a non-call. That has come up before and is sometihng to consider in a last two minutes situation....with complications.
 

kazuneko

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So that was a brutal Ed Malloy special in Atlanta last night. I mean, Jesus.
And what the hell was up with the "take" foul that was called against the Cs after White tried to stop the play after Tillman was wacked in the face by Fernando.
I thought take fouls were meant to prevent defenders from "intentionally stopping a fast break"? In no universe was that play looking like a "fast break". The Hawks weren't even trying to push the ball.
 

the moops

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So that was a brutal Ed Malloy special in Atlanta last night. I mean, Jesus.
And what the hell was up with the "take" foul that was called against the Cs after White tried to stop the play after Tillman was wacked in the face by Fernando.
I thought take fouls were meant to prevent defenders from "intentionally stopping a fast break"? In no universe was that play looking like a "fast break". The Hawks weren't even trying to push the ball.
I didn't see the play, but a take foul doesn't necessarily need to be on a fast break.

“during a transition scoring opportunity or immediately following a change of possession and before the offensive team had the opportunity to advance the ball.”
 

kazuneko

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I didn't see the play, but a take foul doesn't necessarily need to be on a fast break.

“during a transition scoring opportunity or immediately following a change of possession and before the offensive team had the opportunity to advance the ball.”
Interesting. That changes my perspective. I mean, I was someone who thought the take foul was a great idea when they first implemented it, but that might change that perspective. Limiting fouls to prevent transition scoring opportunities is smart. Preventing teams from intentionally fouling to stop a play after one of their players gets hurt -because it just so happens to follow a change of possession makes zero sense.
 
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The Mort Report

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This might be a question deserving its own thread, but shouldn't the NBA legally have to announce when they make widespread changes to officiating like they did after the ASB? Since they now take millions of dollars from gambling websites, I wouldn't be surprised if these sites miraculously got the memo, altering lines without the public having the same info. Even deeper, shouldn't they now have to at least try to give everyone the same whistle? I know in the past they used the excuse they are entertainment, so they would rather not foul out stars, but wouldn't it be illegal now if they put any pressure internally to call the game different for different players with it being public knowledge?

I fully don't expect anyone to hold the NBA accountable, but am I wrong about this?
 

PedroKsBambino

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Their argument—Dumars and head of officiating were on Lowe Post podcast maybe two weeks ago—is that there is an “ongoing effort to get more consistent” and “coaching” but not any changes to the rules.

that is obviously at best spin and pretty disingenuous…but would guess they would say it’s an ongoing process at all times and nothing to announce.

yes, I think that’s ridiculous
 

kazuneko

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Celtics were the first team in NBA history to take zero free throws in a game yesterday. Didn't see the game, but it looks like the refs were probably letting a lot of things go last night.
 

nighthob

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Yeah, if last night is the template for playoff reffing you can pencil the Heat in for the title, because they’re the best rugby team in the NBA.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah, if last night is the template for playoff reffing you can pencil the Heat in for the title, because they’re the best rugby team in the NBA.
Yes, although last night felt more like the refs mailed it in the same way the Celtics did. You see this sometimes during uncompetitive 4th quarters.
 

Bunt Single

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Have we had any clarity on why Tatum got that tech last night? On the surface of things, it looked like a ridiculous call
 

lovegtm

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Have we had any clarity on why Tatum got that tech last night? On the surface of things, it looked like a ridiculous call
The league claims that the dismissive handwave is an automatic T. Completely ridiculous policy given what else they let go, and what is needed to maintain respect for refs.
 

kazuneko

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SGA block clinches series for Dallas
Just rewatched the final play of the OKC/Dallas series and struggling to think of a more impactful call in the history of the NBA.
OKC was up with less than three seconds left, so a non-call likely leads to an OKC victory. Instead it’s called a foul - effectively ending OKC’s season.
So apparently a shot has to be completely released before it can be blocked now. Really? What about when Jaylen Brown’s unreleased shot was “blocked” against Indiana earlier in the year? Wasn’t the only reason this shot wasn’t released because SGA blocked it? Feel like I’ve also seen plays like this called a jump ball..
 
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lovegtm

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SGA block clinches series for Dallas
Just rewatched the final play of the OKC/Dallas series and struggling to think of a more impactful call in the history of the NBA.
OKC was up with less than three seconds left, so a non-call likely leads to an OKC victory. Instead it’s called a foul - effectively ending OKC’s season.
So apparently a shot has to be completely released before it can be blocked now. Really? What about when Jaylen Brown’s unreleased shot was “blocked” against Indiana earlier in the year? Wasn’t the only reason this shot wasn’t released because SGA blocked it? Feel like I’ve also seen plays like this called a jump ball..
A non-call leads to Kyrie laying it in for the lead with 1 second left, and Dallas wins.
 

BaseballJones

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A non-call leads to Kyrie laying it in for the lead with 1 second left, and Dallas wins.
Yeah, I was just about to reply to kazuneko but you did it. I mean, Kyrie corralled the miss and laid it in for the presumptive win anyway. If anything, Dallas should have been mad at the foul call because it took away a free Kyrie layup and put Washington at the line, where he easily could have missed at least one of them.
 

Cornboy14

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Feel like I’ve also seen plays like this called a jump ball..
It’s not a jump ball because PJ Washington didn’t land with the ball, with SGA still touching it.

I thought the egregious call was the out of bounds foul on PJ Washington, that have OKC a free throw and the ball. Dort’s screen clearly wasn’t set. Really should have been a foul on Dort.
 

k-factory

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SGA block clinches series for Dallas
Just rewatched the final play of the OKC/Dallas series and struggling to think of a more impactful call in the history of the NBA.
OKC was up with less than three seconds left, so a non-call likely leads to an OKC victory. Instead it’s called a foul - effectively ending OKC’s season.
So apparently a shot has to be completely released before it can be blocked now. Really? What about when Jaylen Brown’s unreleased shot was “blocked” against Indiana earlier in the year? Wasn’t the only reason this shot wasn’t released because SGA blocked it? Feel like I’ve also seen plays like this called a jump ball..
Yep this is exactly what my interpretation would have been.
There wasn’t a release due to the block. The re-gather and shoot is seamless - credit to Washington on that. But from precedent of what we’ve seen before this feels like a jump ball situation.
It’s also a bit counter to the new rules where offense is supposed to tough out some incidental contact.
Dallas won and have played like the better team but refs take another L