Red Sox sign Kenley Jansen

InsideTheParker

persists in error
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
41,416
Pioneer Valley
It's been a long time since I've looked forward to any appearance by Ryan Brasier.
If I had been watching, I would have longed for anyone, even Brasier, to relieve Jansen on Friday. Apparently Cora agreed. Then, he makes last night's awful mistake. They really need to figure out what's up with Jansen, apart from the Cardinals' game-playing.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,466
If I had been watching, I would have longed for anyone, even Brasier, to relieve Jansen on Friday. Apparently Cora agreed. Then, he makes last night's awful mistake. They really need to figure out what's up with Jansen, apart from the Cardinals' game-playing.
Well…. He’s been awesome until Friday. We’ve seen the best closers in team history have rough stretches. Except Koji. That guy was absurd. But Kenley is no Koji.
 

Merkle's Boner

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2011
3,922
I said it in the game thread, but it bears discussion here, once Cora decided to go with a Kenley, I think he was in a very precarious position in terms of going out there and taking the ball from him. I can’t imagine that has happened to Kenley two days in a row too often in his career, and the fact of the matter is, Jansen is your guy this season. The idea of pulling him after he opening walk, which I’ve heard multiple people say, is ludicrous on a number of levels. It’s just not that easy. All that said, Cora could have avoided the issue by going with Schreiber, who was already warmed up.
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
60,244
San Andreas Fault
Well…. He’s been awesome until Friday. We’ve seen the best closers in team history have rough stretches. Except Koji. That guy was absurd. But Kenley is no Koji.
Koji did give up a walkoff home run to Jose Lobaton to lose game 3 of the ALDS in 2013 to Tampa Bay. But, a single home run, one pitch is not an implosion. And, the Sox took care of business, wrapping up the series in the next game.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
72,686
The idea of pulling him after he opening walk, which I’ve heard multiple people say, is ludicrous on a number of levels. It’s just not that easy.
It's literally impossible as others have mentioned, once he was in to start the inning, he had to face three batters.
 

Blizzard of 1978

@drballs
Sep 12, 2022
503
New Hampshire
This has been a very awkward week for Jansen and Red Sox Nation. 400 saves, a love fest congratulations, than 2 big blown saves back to back. Crazy, but it's baseball. Anything can happen.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,562
Maine
Well…. He’s been awesome until Friday. We’ve seen the best closers in team history have rough stretches. Except Koji. That guy was absurd. But Kenley is no Koji.
Even Koji blew saves once in a while.

It's hard to fault Cora for going to Jansen in that spot. That's what they got Jansen for. He's got 400 career saves. He didn't get there without blowing a few and coming right back to get the next one. Seems like the only question is whether he should have been available after Friday's outing. Having only thrown 22 pitches, there was no reason to declare him unavailable. He threw 22 pitches the Friday before (5/5) and came right back to get the save on Saturday (5/6) as well.

I don't think we can discount the pitch clock violations playing a role. A free ball to Goldschmidt was negligible. The two free balls to Contrares changed the complexion of that plate appearance. If he gets him out instead, the whole inning probably plays out differently.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,961
Miami (oh, Miami!)
But how does one know when he needs a day off? Should a closer always get a day off after blowing a save? This discussion is kinda silly.
What's silly is trying to pretend there's a general rule that is always going to apply.

Jansen didn't just blow a save - he imploded. It was on Cora/Bush to make sure they addressed and fixed whatever what causing the implosion. Clearly, they did not. Ergo, they should have gone with Schaffer.

Now it's entirely possible Cora/Bush thought they ID'd the issue with Jansen and everything looked OK in the pen. But they're actually paid millions to get those kinds of calls right. Here, they got it wrong.
 
But how does one know when he needs a day off? Should a closer always get a day off after blowing a save? This discussion is kinda silly.
It's not just a routine blown save though. He gave up 3 runs, failed to record an out and looked utterly lost up there. He had also already pitched twice in a 3 day span. Given the combination of factors I think it's understandable that people think he should not have been sent out again without a day off at least. I also think what happened to him yesterday was kinda bullshit between the error and the stuff with Contreras, but he was pitching poorly regardless. Even without knowing the results though I think there is a very reasonable argument that he shouldn't have been sent out there.

Of course, we don't know what we don't know though and it's possible that some things transpired between closed doors that made this the best path. If Jansen had begged Cora for another shot I could see an argument that it would have been more damaging to refuse.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,562
Maine
In his career, Jansen has blown a save and come back to pitch the very next day in a save situation seven times. He recorded the save in the second game five out of seven. In one instance, he also recorded the save the day after as well (so back-to-back-to-back outings resulting in BS-S-S).

June 20, 2014 - Blown Save vs Padres
June 21, 2014 - Save vs Padres

August 26, 2016 - Blown Save vs Cubs
August 27, 2016 - Save vs Cubs
August 28, 2016 - Save vs Cubs

July 23, 2017 - Blown Save vs Braves
July 24, 2017 - Save vs Twins

July 6, 2018 - Blown Save vs Angels
July 7, 2018 - Save vs Angels

June 15, 2019 - Blown Save vs Cubs
June 16, 2019 - Save vs Cubs

July 21, 2021 - Blown Save vs Giants
July 22, 2021 - Blown Save vs Giants

May 12, 2023 - Blown Save vs Cardinals
May 13, 2023 - Blown Save vs Cardinals
 

Redkluzu

tortures mice
SoSH Member
Dec 10, 2007
2,661
Bostonish...see Wiki for "ish"
In his career, Jansen has blown a save and come back to pitch the very next day in a save situation seven times. He recorded the save in the second game five out of seven. In one instance, he also recorded the save the day after as well (so back-to-back-to-back outings resulting in BS-S-S).

June 20, 2014 - Blown Save vs Padres
June 21, 2014 - Save vs Padres

August 26, 2016 - Blown Save vs Cubs
August 27, 2016 - Save vs Cubs
August 28, 2016 - Save vs Cubs

July 23, 2017 - Blown Save vs Braves
July 24, 2017 - Save vs Twins

July 6, 2018 - Blown Save vs Angels
July 7, 2018 - Save vs Angels

June 15, 2019 - Blown Save vs Cubs
June 16, 2019 - Save vs Cubs

July 21, 2021 - Blown Save vs Giants
July 22, 2021 - Blown Save vs Giants

May 12, 2023 - Blown Save vs Cardinals
May 13, 2023 - Blown Save vs Cardinals
This is really interesting and you should post it in the Game Thread too-- to enlighten a few people whose names shall not be mentioned.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,961
Miami (oh, Miami!)
In his career, Jansen has blown a save and come back to pitch the very next day in a save situation seven times. He recorded the save in the second game five out of seven. In one instance, he also recorded the save the day after as well (so back-to-back-to-back outings resulting in BS-S-S).

June 20, 2014 - Blown Save vs Padres
June 21, 2014 - Save vs Padres

August 26, 2016 - Blown Save vs Cubs
August 27, 2016 - Save vs Cubs
August 28, 2016 - Save vs Cubs

July 23, 2017 - Blown Save vs Braves
July 24, 2017 - Save vs Twins

July 6, 2018 - Blown Save vs Angels
July 7, 2018 - Save vs Angels

June 15, 2019 - Blown Save vs Cubs
June 16, 2019 - Save vs Cubs

July 21, 2021 - Blown Save vs Giants
July 22, 2021 - Blown Save vs Giants

May 12, 2023 - Blown Save vs Cardinals
May 13, 2023 - Blown Save vs Cardinals
Has he ever blown a save and then sat the next day, even if there was a save situation?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,562
Maine
Has he ever blown a save and then sat the next day, even if there was a save situation?
A lot harder to research that with the resources available, but, probably? He's certainly had more than the nine blown saves reflected in the list I compiled. Assuming there were days off after a blown save, probably safe to assume that there were other circumstances involved with the decision than just "he blew a save last night so we'll stay away from him today."
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,961
Miami (oh, Miami!)
A lot harder to research that with the resources available, but, probably? He's certainly had more than the nine blown saves reflected in the list I compiled. Assuming there were days off after a blown save, probably safe to assume that there were other circumstances involved with the decision than just "he blew a save last night so we'll stay away from him today."
So your thesis is what here?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,562
Maine
So your thesis is what here?
All I did was provide examples in which he was brought into a save situation the day after blowing a save. And five of the previous six times that happened before Saturday, he was successful in recording the save in the second game. I was trying to dispel the notion that the clear cut answer after Friday night was to give Jansen a day off to clear his head or recover or whatever. He was deemed to be available so Cora gave him the ball, and I don't have a problem with that.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,961
Miami (oh, Miami!)
All I did was provide examples in which he was brought into a save situation the day after blowing a save. And five of the previous six times that happened before Saturday, he was successful in recording the save in the second game. I was trying to dispel the notion that the clear cut answer after Friday night was to give Jansen a day off to clear his head or recover or whatever. He was deemed to be available so Cora gave him the ball, and I don't have a problem with that.
The correct answer was to give Jansen the day off.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,961
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Easy to say in hindsight. Not easy to say on Saturday at, say, 5:30pm.
I say this not to sound dickish, but to make a real point.

You weren't there. Your ignorance (and my ignorance) has no bearing on the ability of the Sox staff to correctly deal with the situation. You should not attribute your lack of knowledge or skill to them.

Conversely, your ignorance (and my ignorance) has a bearing on our ability to judge how the Sox staff dealt with the situation. Because - we don't know what they did. It may have been comprehensive and convincing, or it may have been Grady-aphoristic lackadaisicalness.

We often can only judge in hindsight.

Jansen did not seem top-shelf sharp when he came into the game, but he eventually got the DP ball that E.Hernandez muffed. Bush and Cora (and probably Jansen) gambled that the margin for error still favored success. They were wrong.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
13,284
So how were the Sox to know that Jansen was not going to be “top-shelf sharp” (whatever that means and how it is measured I’m not sure) when he entered the game? Simply because he wasn’t on Friday? Guy blew two saves in a row, oh no! It happens.
 

LogansDad

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
30,812
Alamogordo
Easy to say in hindsight. Not easy to say on Saturday at, say, 5:30pm.
I disagree. He had pitched two of the previous 3 days already, and labored terribly the day before.

I will agree that in general going back to him after a blown save, or on 0 days of rest in general, wouldn't have been questionable. He has pitched on 0 days rest 46 times since 2020, and his numbers on those days are basically in line with his overall numbers. I am struggling to come up with a way to sort for "3rd time in 4 days", but it is probably pretty close to those same numbers if I had to guess.

That said, he has already been shut down once within the last two weeks for lower back stuff, and he looked simply dreadful the day before.

If he was their only real option, I could see that being an argument, but Chris Martin, who has been very reliable, was fully rested.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
25,961
Miami (oh, Miami!)
So how were the Sox to know that Jansen was not going to be “top-shelf sharp” (whatever that means and how it is measured I’m not sure) when he entered the game? Simply because he wasn’t on Friday? Guy blew two saves in a row, oh no! It happens.
It's almost like you are not bothering to read the thread, or to make any attempt to understand anyone else's point.

Is that the case?
 

Benj4ever

New Member
Nov 21, 2022
405
So how were the Sox to know that Jansen was not going to be “top-shelf sharp” (whatever that means and how it is measured I’m not sure) when he entered the game? Simply because he wasn’t on Friday? Guy blew two saves in a row, oh no! It happens.
I certainly don't have any inside information, but I would have thought that Sox staff could have figured out he didn't have good velocity from his warmup. After all, he was sitting at 91-92 during the game.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

Don't know him from Adam
SoSH Member
Mar 14, 2006
10,521
Kernersville, NC
I certainly don't have any inside information, but I would have thought that Sox staff could have figured out he didn't have good velocity from his warmup. After all, he was sitting at 91-92 during the game.
I was about to post something similar. I would think it would be pretty obvious during his bullpen warmup.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,562
Maine
I was about to post something similar. I would think it would be pretty obvious during his bullpen warmup.
There are plenty of anecdotes over the years of pitchers who did not have "it" in the pen but found "it" when they hit the mound on the field. Unless he noticed something was physically wrong, like an injury or something, a "bad" warmup usually isn't enough for them to call off an outing.
 

CarolinaBeerGuy

Don't know him from Adam
SoSH Member
Mar 14, 2006
10,521
Kernersville, NC
There are plenty of anecdotes over the years of pitchers who did not have "it" in the pen but found "it" when they hit the mound on the field. Unless he noticed something was physically wrong, like an injury or something, a "bad" warmup usually isn't enough for them to call off an outing.
A bad warmup after a bad outing with reduced velocity is a different thing.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
21,562
Maine
A bad warmup after a bad outing with reduced velocity is a different thing.
Thing is, I don't think they have a gun in the bullpen so can they really tell if there's reduced velocity? What exactly is a "bad warmup" supposed to entail? It just feels off? Like I said, there are plenty of stories of guys not feeling it in the bullpen only to have lights out performances once they take the mound for real. I can very much see no one thinking twice about a "bad warmup."
 

Benj4ever

New Member
Nov 21, 2022
405
Thing is, I don't think they have a gun in the bullpen so can they really tell if there's reduced velocity? What exactly is a "bad warmup" supposed to entail? It just feels off? Like I said, there are plenty of stories of guys not feeling it in the bullpen only to have lights out performances once they take the mound for real. I can very much see no one thinking twice about a "bad warmup."
I can only imagine that after you have been around baseball long enough, you can tell the difference between 91 mph and 96 mph, even if you don't know what the exact speed is.

In any case, you make a good point regarding the difference between warming up and pitching in a game.
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
17,254
They aren't going to start timing velocity in the bullpen. The guy is warming up to get ready, not throwing game speed. You wouldn't want him throwing as hard as he can when warming up, it defeats the whole purpose and could lead to injury or fatigue.
If you start grading a guy who is warming up, and then say "You aren't coming in now because your pitches don't look good," then every pitcher in the bullpen will be going all-out every time they warm up. And you would need to have 2 guys warming up every time, in case the one you want to use doesn't look good-- there wouldn't be time to get another guy ready at that point.

The highly paid closer sucked and we lost.
The only question you might criticize the coaches for is whether he should have been used at all or given the day off. And even that is results-based and mostly hindsight, because if he got the save, no one would have said he should have been given the day off.

But they aren't going to be grading his warmups, that's not going to happen and it shouldn't.
 

Sin Duda

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
970
(B)Austin Texas
They aren't going to start timing velocity in the bullpen. The guy is warming up to get ready, not throwing game speed. You wouldn't want him throwing as hard as he can when warming up, it defeats the whole purpose and could lead to injury or fatigue.
If you start grading a guy who is warming up, and then say "You aren't coming in now because your pitches don't look good," then every pitcher in the bullpen will be going all-out every time they warm up. And you would need to have 2 guys warming up every time, in case the one you want to use doesn't look good-- there wouldn't be time to get another guy ready at that point.

The highly paid closer sucked and we lost.
The only question you might criticize the coaches for is whether he should have been used at all or given the day off. And even that is results-based and mostly hindsight, because if he got the save, no one would have said he should have been given the day off.

But they aren't going to be grading his warmups, that's not going to happen and it shouldn't.
Thanks for a little sanity, GE.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,864
They aren't going to start timing velocity in the bullpen. The guy is warming up to get ready, not throwing game speed. You wouldn't want him throwing as hard as he can when warming up, it defeats the whole purpose and could lead to injury or fatigue.
If you start grading a guy who is warming up, and then say "You aren't coming in now because your pitches don't look good," then every pitcher in the bullpen will be going all-out every time they warm up. And you would need to have 2 guys warming up every time, in case the one you want to use doesn't look good-- there wouldn't be time to get another guy ready at that point.

The highly paid closer sucked and we lost.
The only question you might criticize the coaches for is whether he should have been used at all or given the day off. And even that is results-based and mostly hindsight, because if he got the save, no one would have said he should have been given the day off.

But they aren't going to be grading his warmups, that's not going to happen and it shouldn't.
Pretty much 100% agreed but I did want Screuber or Martin there.
Of course if one of those guys blow it…. We’d be asking why not use Jensen there???
 

soxhop411

news aggravator
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
47,108
I thought about this today, and it was my first thought.

I went back to watch the video, since I didn't see it in real time yesterday, but really it's on the league to figure out how to fix it. Contreras isn't doing anything wrong, IMO.

I am a little stumped as to what the fix would be, though. The ump is calling it as soon as Kenley comes set, why not let him start his motion before calling it? It's a tough one, I think, because you don't want pitchers quick pitching the hitters, but I would say that once the clock passes the 8 second mark it should be fair game for pitching the ball, regardless of how long the batter has been "ready". Let the pitcher come set, whenever he wants, and he can pitch a tick after the batter is "ready" (again, whatever that means), or at 8 seconds.

I suspect we might see Contreras get drilled, though, because rich people playing sports get their feelings hurt easily.
And we now have the “Contreras rule”

per ESPN
Major league hitters are being reminded that any attempted circumvention of pitch timer rules to gain an advantage will result in a violation, according to a memo sent to MLB teams and obtained by ESPN on Wednesday.

The clarification comes in light of Boston Red Soxpitcher Kenley Jansen being assessed two violations in the span of four pitches Saturday after St. Louis Cardinals designated hitter Willson Contreras got into a hitting position with one foot in and one foot out of the batter's box.

Contreras raised his bat and engaged with Jansen with more than the required eight seconds remaining on the clock to be in the box. In seeing this, Jansen came to a set position, which led to the quick pitch violations.

From now on, when a batter gets into a hitting position and engages with the pitcher, with one or both feet out of the box, he'll be warned and then assessed a strike on subsequent violations, according to the memo.

Chronic offenders will be subject to further discipline by the commissioner's office. Teams were informed in early March that pitchers were prohibited from quick pitching, while this clarification restricts batters from inducing such action.


Pitchers must continue to be aware of the position of the batter and identify when he is "appropriately" in the batter's box and alert to the pitcher before the pitcher begins the windup or comes set, according to the memo.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/37671689/mlb-memo-warns-hitters-not-circumvent-pitch-r-rules
 

Looch

New Member
Jul 15, 2021
735
Thank goodness because that Contreras stuff was absolute bullshit. The pitcher is supposed to be responsible for making sure the batter has both feet in the box? That ump shouldn’t have been so anal about the rule in the first place but the league had to shut that kind of stuff down fast, as they just did.

It was weird to me that there wasn’t more sympathy for Jansen and less outrage about Contreras at the time, which mainly might have been related to confusion about what the hell was happening and also Jansen losing his mojo even before that crap.

But this is a good thing and hopefully Kenley has had enough of a breather and getting away from Fenway without having to worry about Contreras imitatorswill restore his confidence.
 

streeter88

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 2, 2006
1,821
Melbourne, Australia
So it's not just The Red Sox who have closer drama... The Tampa-Toronto game that just ended had an exciting finish by one of their closer by committee Pete Fairbanks. After Zack Littell allowed 3 hits including a solo HR in the top of the ninth to narrow it to 6-3, Fairbanks came in and got the job done. But not without some excitement - he got the first hitter, but then gave up a hit and a walk to load em up, then got Bichette to ground out meekly to end the threat.

Was just poking around a site called Closer Monkey... anybody know anything / connected to it on here?

https://closermonkey.com/test/archives/al-east/
 

The Gray Eagle

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
17,254
Jansen says his recent struggles are because his mechanics are out of whack:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/05/22/sports/red-sox-closer-kenley-jansen-is-rut-veteran-seems-know-problem/

Jansen relayed before the Sox’ 2-1 loss to open a three-game set against the Angels Monday that his poor results are due to poor mechanics.
“The way my body is positioned right now, [my arm] is late,” Jansen said.
Essentially, Jansen’s body is going forward well before his arm. As a result, Jansen’s arm drags or he has to create arm speed in an effort to have everything synched up correctly. That, however, leads to some of the erratic control over the last week or so. For Jansen, the issue occurred following his 400th save against the Braves.
He has thrown 36 pitches in his last three outings with just a 44 percent strike rate. Manager Alex Cora noticed that Jansen’s cutter has lacked command.
“The cutter has been down in the zone,” Cora noted. “It’s usually up. So he thinks there’s something going on. Just kind of like staying closed [during his delivery] and being able to repeat his delivery. So hopefully we can do that.”

Seems like he got out of sync after the 400th save, when he was throwing a lot harder than usual.

“Sometimes things just happen,” Jansen said. “It’s not an excuse or anything. It’s just reality that sometimes when you get to a big milestone, your adrenaline is so high that the next day you come out flat and you try to recreate that moment or that feeling. You can get yourself out of whack which kind of happened a little bit. So you just got to stay patient.”
Hopefully he will get back on track and back in whack, instead of getting whacked again.

Jansen is extremely confident that he’s turning a corner. Despite the lack of command that continued into Sunday, the closer knows that once everything clicks, he will be back to his usual dominant self.
“I had two humble pies,” said Jansen, referencing his two blown saves. “Now we’re back on track. Back on earth.”
Hopefully, no more more humble pies.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWqrP30YXQ
 

manny

New Member
Jul 24, 2005
269
So it's not just The Red Sox who have closer drama... The Tampa-Toronto game that just ended had an exciting finish by one of their closer by committee Pete Fairbanks. After Zack Littell allowed 3 hits including a solo HR in the top of the ninth to narrow it to 6-3, Fairbanks came in and got the job done. But not without some excitement - he got the first hitter, but then gave up a hit and a walk to load em up, then got Bichette to ground out meekly to end the threat.

Was just poking around a site called Closer Monkey... anybody know anything / connected to it on here?

https://closermonkey.com/test/archives/al-east/
It's a site designed for fantasy baseball purposes. They send out alerts when there are changes in closer roles, etc.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 11, 2007
6,864
Jansen says his recent struggles are because his mechanics are out of whack:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/05/22/sports/red-sox-closer-kenley-jansen-is-rut-veteran-seems-know-problem/

Jansen relayed before the Sox’ 2-1 loss to open a three-game set against the Angels Monday that his poor results are due to poor mechanics.





Seems like he got out of sync after the 400th save, when he was throwing a lot harder than usual.



Hopefully he will get back on track and back in whack, instead of getting whacked again.



Hopefully, no more more humble pies.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWqrP30YXQ
I've been playing tennis again on a regular basis (after 25 years of not even swinging a racket) and was shocked that after one full day my serve came right back to me... a little slower but pretty damned good. But found myself after a few good matches, suddenly thinking about my technique and then I couldn't even get it over the net for the next match and had to revert to a light careful serve for a while. Just crazy how when something doesn't quite "click" that can cause all other sorts of things to fall apart and it wil again only take a small thing to go right for it all to fall right back into place.