(Re)Building the Offense

Was (Not Wasdin)

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There is a lot of talk in a bunch of different threads about what to do with Mac, BB, etc. Thought it might be helpful to have a place to discuss rebuilding the offense as a whole, which I think is necessary (for those who do not, please share whatever you are smoking).

I doubt they extend Mac, and I think they play with him next year. I'd trade him if I thought they could get anything for him, but I think that is highly unlikely. Unless they get Caleb Williams (discussed below) I wouldn't spend a high draft pick on a QB. Go the 49ers/Lions route-build up everything around them, then add the QB. The 49ers plan worked perfectly, just with the wrong guy, Purdy instead of Lance (imagine what that team would look like with those picks back?). Lions are winning with a guy whose contract is so bad they got paid a first rounder to take him on, and are well positioned to add their next QB.

The biggest problem to me is the OL. I dont think it is fair to put much blame on Klemm because this cake was already baked when he was hired, but I'm hopeful that part of the reason they brought him on board is to improve their scouting, evaluating, and development when it comes to the OL. They cannot compete the way this line is playing now. Their non-turnover drives yesterday were horrid: 3 plays, 6 yards, 0:44, Punt. It is a passing league, but you cant be one dimensional (even if you are really good at it, which the Pats are not). They had 3rd and 1 on the Dallas 6 on the opening drive, how did they not just run the ball (twice if needed) for a first down? If you cant trust your OL to get you a yard, you don't deserve to win. They need an OL that can get yards and extend drives, and can competently pass block. That has to be the first priority.

There isnt a single skill position player on this team that is a major part of the next really good Pats offense, with the possible exceptions of Rham (although contract and wear and tear are concerns), Douglas and Boutte. I'm fine letting everyone else play out their respective string, but they should be looking to draft and develop guys behind them. Pats and WRs are the like the Sox with pitchers-there seems to be a real problem in evaluating and developing them. They need a new approach, and they need to look for a true #1 guy. There is plenty of late round talent out there-Diggs, Tyreek, Keenan Allen, Amon-Ra, Puka Nacua-all those guys were later round picks. I agree that scheme/the QB throwing to them matters, but Tyquan Thornton is the new Tony Battie* in any system. No more Thorntons or Harrys, who were both serious overdrafts.

I can't see the Pats being in a position to draft Caleb Williams. The Bears and Cardinals control the top of the draft (with their own picks plus Carolina's and Houston's respectively) and they will both be looking for a QB. The Jets will be in that mix, but I'm not sure they'd take the QB if they had the No. 1 pick. The Broncos and Raiders as well, especially if the Raiders get what they can for Jacobs and Adams. If the Pats finished with the #1 pick I'd take Williams (and then I'd sit him for a year). if they had the #2 pick and williams went 1, I'd take Marvin Harrison Jr. . After that (I think the Pats will be picking between 5 and 10) I'd take either highly rated tackle (Fashanu or Joe Alt) or Brock Bowers if neither of them were available. Later in the draft I'd look to add an interior guy-Maybe Christian Mahogany from BC if he slides.

TL:dr version: Bolster the OL with high picks and maybe an FA signing, add developmental skill players to find downfield threats, then add the QB.


*When he played for the Nuggets, Battie's own GM referred to him as "El Busto"
 

8slim

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I agree wholeheartedly about the OL. I can’t believe they went into this season with the collection of players they have there. Best case scenario is that they’d be barely average. Worst case scenario is what we’ve been seeing (and I think it can get worse as more injuries pile up).

Going Strange/Thornton at the top of that draft was an absolute killer.

They need to invest real capital — picks and FA money — into the OL.
 

BaseballJones

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If you put this group of pass catchers on the 49ers or Eagles, they'd be lighting up the scoreboard. Those teams have terrific schemes, awesome offensive lines, and good running games. The receivers would be doing great on those teams.
 

j44thor

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They won't be in a position to draft Caleb with CHI currently holding the #1 and #2 picks. They could be in a position to draft Drake Maye though CHI might be in position to ransom him off as well.

Quinn Ewers is another name to keep an eye on. I haven't seen TX play but he is supposed to have an NFL arm which is going to be a pre-req for the next NE QB. Hopefully Bill has at least learned his lesson on that front given the conditions NE plays a majority of their games in and the results you get from a QB with below avg arm talent.

No idea where Ewers will end up in the draft process but if he slips he could be the ideal QB to sit behind Mac for a year as he is less pro ready than the top 2. Not too excited about the idea of the older QBs like Penix Jr. or Bo Nix as they are only a couple years younger than Mac and don't have much projection left.

I can also see the argument for building out the line and skill groups before addressing QB as I do think they need a rebuild top to bottom. The risk is passing on a viable QB and ending up like ATL who have 3 high first rd picks invested in the offense and Mac Jones lite at QB.
 

j44thor

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If you put this group of pass catchers on the 49ers or Eagles, they'd be lighting up the scoreboard. Those teams have terrific schemes, awesome offensive lines, and good running games. The receivers would be doing great on those teams.
Funny because Bourne's career year came after he left SF and joined NE.
 

slamminsammya

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This era for the line is making me appreciate all over again how fortunate we were to have the sequences Light-Solder and Kaczur-Vollmer at the tackles for a decade plus.
 

Cellar-Door

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I agree wholeheartedly about the OL. I can’t believe they went into this season with the collection of players they have there. Best case scenario is that they’d be barely average. Worst case scenario is what we’ve been seeing (and I think it can get worse as more injuries pile up).

Going Strange/Thornton at the top of that draft was an absolute killer.

They need to invest real capital — picks and FA money — into the OL.
Not really sure I agree.
On paper, it looked like you had very good to good players at RG, C and one tackle spot (Trent Brown), a young LG who ended his rookie year playing around league average, and some journeyman starters at RT.. plus some rookies.

On paper that line is pretty decent, expectation on it should have been league average, maybe better. Problem is basically everyone got hurt, they never got to practice and play together, and it's a mess.
 

rodderick

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Yeah, on paper the line isn't bad, but the opportunity was there to turn RT from weakness to strength and they passed on it repeatedly. Don't think one guy would make them into a good unit, but I never like the strategy to accumulate a bunch of middling players and hope one of them emerges.
 

genoasalami

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I agree wholeheartedly about the OL. I can’t believe they went into this season with the collection of players they have there. Best case scenario is that they’d be barely average. Worst case scenario is what we’ve been seeing (and I think it can get worse as more injuries pile up).

Going Strange/Thornton at the top of that draft was an absolute killer.

They need to invest real capital — picks and FA money — into the OL.
Every team whiffs on draft picks..but going Strange/Thornton 1/2 was inexcusable...
 

j44thor

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Right. His personal numbers might not be bonkers if this group was with SF, but as a group that offense would be doing serious damage.
We will have to agree to disagree, SF offense is built around receivers that generate YAC and Bourne is the only NE receiver besides Douglas that can generate any YAC. SF offense is incredible because they have the #1 RB in the league by a long shot and have superior WRs in Deebo and Aiyuk along with a top 5 TE in Kittle. Any one of those is in another league compared to the mediocrity that is the NE skill position core.
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah, on paper the line isn't bad, but the opportunity was there to turn RT from weakness to strength and they passed on it repeatedly. Don't think one guy would make them into a good unit, but I never like the strategy to accumulate a bunch of middling players and hope one of them emerges.
On the other hand, the big names/money guys in the FA class...
Taylor.... has been terrible, Orlando Brown has not been good, McGlinchey has been okay but nothing special.

Reiff got hurt and McDermot got hurt which stinks and Anderson has been bad, but considering how bad the top tackles signed this offseason have been, it seems like it wasn't a bad move, just bad luck on the injury front.

I get counting Strange as a fuckup, but Thornton still has a chance to show something, no?
Honestly Strange was looking very encouraging last year, I get people hate the idea of drafting interior linemen early at all, but before the injury Strange was looking on track to be a good starter.
It's much like when people knock the Wynn pick... Wynn was a good starting tackle, he was a good pick... then his body fell apart, and he fell to a level of athleticism that wasn't viable in the NFL anymore, that sucks but it's also the NFL, you can't predict injuries.
 

8slim

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On the other hand, the big names/money guys in the FA class...
Taylor.... has been terrible, Orlando Brown has not been good, McGlinchey has been okay but nothing special.

Reiff got hurt and McDermot got hurt which stinks and Anderson has been bad, but considering how bad the top tackles signed this offseason have been, it seems like it wasn't a bad move, just bad luck on the injury front.



Honestly Strange was looking very encouraging last year, I get people hate the idea of drafting interior linemen early at all, but before the injury Strange was looking on track to be a good starter.
It's much like when people knock the Wynn pick... Wynn was a good starting tackle, he was a good pick... then his body fell apart, and he fell to a level of athleticism that wasn't viable in the NFL anymore, that sucks but it's also the NFL, you can't predict injuries.
By all accounts Strange was a huge reach where he went. That’s what so bewildering. Captain Tradedown spent his 1st and 2nd round picks on guys that likely could have gone many picks later.

Strange was up and down last year, but that’d be a bit more understandable if he wasn’t a first round pick. That needed to be a HR.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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By all accounts Strange was a huge reach where he went. That’s what so bewildering. Captain Tradedown spent his 1st and 2nd round picks on guys that likely could have gone many picks later.

Strange was up and down last year, but that’d be a bit more understandable if he wasn’t a first round pick. That needed to be a HR.
Exactly. They could have gone in a number of directions with that first pick, and Strange would have been there in the second round and Thornton in the third.

Fake edit: They are getting nothing from the 2019 draft and next to nothing from the 2022 draft. that is going to hamstring them for a while.
 
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Deathofthebambino

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If you put this group of pass catchers on the 49ers or Eagles, they'd be lighting up the scoreboard. Those teams have terrific schemes, awesome offensive lines, and good running games. The receivers would be doing great on those teams.
The 49ers got better without Kendrick Bourne. Then they started last season 3-3, and went out and got CMC to shore up their running game to go with Kittle/Deebo/Aiyuk and a great offensive line.

The Dolphins got better without Parker and Gesicki.

The Chargers have not missed Hunter Henry's receiving production, and certainly haven't missed his bull fighter impression when blocking.

Put this group of pass catchers on the 49ers, and no way is Purdy doing as well as he is now. It would still be a lot better than what they are doing here, because of the running game, offensive line, and coaching though.
 

astrozombie

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I hated the Strange pick at the time and hate it even more now. A massive reach for someone who I don't even think is that good. This felt like BB zagging when everyone else zigs, simply to prove he knows more than everyone and it didn't work. Since we're looking at draft picks in the first 2 rounds:
2023 - Gonzalez/White. So far so good, 4 games in.
2022 - Strange/Thornton. Both reaches, bother underwhelming
2021- Jones/Barmore. Opinions on Jones range from "awful" to "can be good in a good offense". I loved the Barmore pick at the time, but I never hear his name called during games and I am starting to think he is a perfectly fine player, but nothing special.
2020 - Dugger/Uche. Love Duggar, Uche is fine but YMMV. He seems like he picks up 3 sacks in a game and then disappears for the next 2 games.
2019 - Harry/Williams. lol.
2018 - Wynn/Michel/Dawson. Wynn and Dawson sucked. Michel had a good post-season, but RB is the most easily replaced position in the league.
2017 - none
2016 - Jones. Cyrus Jones. lol
2015 - Brown/Richards. Brown was a perfectly fine interior lineman (Barmore 1.0) and I don't remember Richards doing anything.
2014 - Easley/Garappolo. Easley was bad and Garappolo is Mac Jones 1.0 - good on a good team, bad on a bad one.
2013 - Collins/Dobson. Collins was great in his first stint and Dobson was forgettable.

Stopping at 2012 because from then back, the picks in the first 2 rounds were pretty good (McCourty, Gronk, Hightower, Solder, Chung, etc.) But that is 10 years and 20 picks in the first 2 rounds and there are some ok players there (and in the case of Duggar, great), but a lot of whiffs. I know everyone has a whiffs, but man... a lot of those picks are regrettable.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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If you put this group of pass catchers on the 49ers or Eagles, they'd be lighting up the scoreboard. Those teams have terrific schemes, awesome offensive lines, and good running games. The receivers would be doing great on those teams.
A large part of the reason those teams have good running games is because defenses have to respect Aiyuk/Samuel or AJ Brown/D. Smith taking it to the house on any given play. Who in this group of Patriot's pass catchers is any kind of deep/YAC threat like that?
 

Cellar-Door

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By all accounts Strange was a huge reach where he went. That’s what so bewildering. Captain Tradedown spent his 1st and 2nd round picks on guys that likely could have gone many picks later.

Strange was up and down last year, but that’d be a bit more understandable if he wasn’t a first round pick. That needed to be a HR.
Reach is relative, and generally not true. Reach is almost always going to be based on what people with lower information think. Now Thornton for example, some people said they had heard he was high on Pittsburgh's list, one reason Bill took him where he was. On Strange... really hard to say where a fast riser small school guy with elite athletic traits goes.

Reach doesn't actually exist in drafting, at least not in reality, there are 32 teams, it only takes one of the other 31 having the same grade as you for the guy not to be there if you move down. I think Gonzalez is a nice example of the opposite. Bill traded down, past teams with CB needs, because he thought he had a good idea who they wanted. I don't doubt that it's the same with some of his "reach" picks, that he knows who else was scouting these guys, who was at the workouts, what those teams like, and whether it's likely they have his guy high.

I also think the idea that a late 1st needs to be a HR year one is a terrible way to assess picks, nobody needs to be a HR year 1, not even top 5 picks. They just need to be good players for some or all of their rookie deals. You'd rather a good player that takes a bit to settle than one of these guys who flashes early then the league figures out and they fade.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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The OL, QB, and pass catchers are just not anywhere near league average at the moment. However, the OL may be the worst of the three. They don’t pass protect well and holes are non existent in the running game. All while not being blitzed.

Chad Graff:The Patriots have allowed pressure on 39 percent of dropbacks this season (which ranks 25th) despite rarely being blitzed (only the Chiefs face blitz less often).

View: https://twitter.com/chadgraff/status/1708901183761313930?s=46&t=HjJFoYxjvGPCjCOhFyeLTg
 

8slim

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Reach is relative, and generally not true. Reach is almost always going to be based on what people with lower information think. Now Thornton for example, some people said they had heard he was high on Pittsburgh's list, one reason Bill took him where he was. On Strange... really hard to say where a fast riser small school guy with elite athletic traits goes.

Reach doesn't actually exist in drafting, at least not in reality, there are 32 teams, it only takes one of the other 31 having the same grade as you for the guy not to be there if you move down. I think Gonzalez is a nice example of the opposite. Bill traded down, past teams with CB needs, because he thought he had a good idea who they wanted. I don't doubt that it's the same with some of his "reach" picks, that he knows who else was scouting these guys, who was at the workouts, what those teams like, and whether it's likely they have his guy high.

I also think the idea that a late 1st needs to be a HR year one is a terrible way to assess picks, nobody needs to be a HR year 1, not even top 5 picks. They just need to be good players for some or all of their rookie deals. You'd rather a good player that takes a bit to settle than one of these guys who flashes early then the league figures out and they fade.
We get so bent around the axle here when it come to parsing terminology.

Forget I said reach.

Cole Strange strikes me as a guy who’s a good get in the late 2nd round, and potentially poor value in the late first. Because there were higher impact guys available when he was taken, at several different positions. And right now I’m leaning poor value because I’ve seen nothing from him so far to suggest he’s gonna be a strong piece of the line for several years.

Thornton is still TBD. Maybe he’ll come back from injury and be dynamic. I’m skeptical, but who knows.
 

BaseballJones

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We've asked this question before but I'll ask it again, just for fun (because we are all grieving here). Aside from Tom Brady (i.e., you cannot name him as your answer), what ONE former Patriot player would you like to have on THIS team, right now?

Gronk? Moss? Welker? Edelman? Light? Mankins? Curtis Martin? Who?
 

Dogman

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We've asked this question before but I'll ask it again, just for fun (because we are all grieving here). Aside from Tom Brady (i.e., you cannot name him as your answer), what ONE former Patriot player would you like to have on THIS team, right now?

Gronk? Moss? Welker? Edelman? Light? Mankins? Curtis Martin? Who?
This thread is about how to (re)build this offense moving forward. Let's keep it on track.

Want to wax poetic about the past, use the Celebrating thread or something.
 

BaseballJones

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This thread is about how to (re)build this offense moving forward. Let's keep it on track.

Want to wax poetic about the past, use the Celebrating thread or something.
Fair enough.

On topic then, the way to revamp the offense, IMO, begins with the OL. You NEED to have a good offensive line or whatever QB you have is going to get killed back there. And no RB you have will be able to gain yards.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think the rest of this season is going to be about seeing what the line looks like healthy (particularly Strange) and sorting out the young WRs.
You know you probably need new tackles (or at least 1) and a new QB, but what else do you have. Are any of the other young O-linemen making progress? Thornton/Boutte/Douglas... what's happening there, is Andrews done, or just struggling?

(also the obvious answer to the past question was prime-Bledsoe, a very good QB makes a huge difference and he was a very good QB).
 

astrozombie

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Fair enough.

On topic then, the way to revamp the offense, IMO, begins with the OL. You NEED to have a good offensive line or whatever QB you have is going to get killed back there. And no RB you have will be able to gain yards.
Bolded for emphasis. Stevenson is good and Zeke still has something left in the tank, but without a decent OL, it is pointless. You could build an RB monster out of prime Emmitt Smith/Barry Sanders/Walter Payton/Jim Brown and they would still be crap with this O line.
 

cornwalls@6

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Offensive line and Quarterback both need to be dramatically upgraded, IMO. A very heavy lift that likely takes multiple years to accomplish. Beyond that, I don’t think the pass catching group is as bad or far away as some do. The running back room can definitely use more talent and depth, but that should be relatively easy to address with position being so fungible, and with functional talent being so readily available most years. Which makes the fact that all they manage to do was sign a nearly shot Zeke this year that much more disappointing.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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I think the rest of this season is going to be about seeing what the line looks like healthy (particularly Strange) and sorting out the young WRs.
You know you probably need new tackles (or at least 1) and a new QB, but what else do you have. Are any of the other young O-linemen making progress? Thornton/Boutte/Douglas... what's happening there, is Andrews done, or just struggling?

(also the obvious answer to the past question was prime-Bledsoe, a very good QB makes a huge difference and he was a very good QB).
The OL is old/not talented/injured. The last two weeks have been the most pressured weeks in Mac's career. These are good/great Ds but this week saw little to no blitzing. When the line can't block and the opposing D knows that no WRs are beating their corners off of the line at the snap, I'm not sure anything else matters at QB.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1708890756507730304?s=20
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The OL is old/not talented/injured. The last two weeks have been the most pressured weeks in Mac's career. These are good/great Ds but this week saw little to no blitzing. When the line can't block and the opposing D knows that no WRs are beating their corners off of the line at the snap, I'm not sure anything else matters at QB.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1708890756507730304?s=20
To me, the line is the area where it feels they can generate improvement. This Tweet is pretty telling as it matched what we saw - the worst Mac Jones/Patriots performance in ages - and it was because Dallas D thoroughly dominated the Pats in every aspect.

Its highly unlikely that better line play is going to make them a contender but it feels like it makes them an annoying team that will hang around if you let them. Maybe a bit more. I know that's little comfort to folks who want another Superbowl yesterday but that's realistically all we can hope for this season absent trades.
 

Cellar-Door

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The OL is old/not talented/injured. The last two weeks have been the most pressured weeks in Mac's career. These are good/great Ds but this week saw little to no blitzing. When the line can't block and the opposing D knows that no WRs are beating their corners off of the line at the snap, I'm not sure anything else matters at QB.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1708890756507730304?s=20
THe line is definitely a problem, which is why rest of year is to evaluate it, but.... I hate the use of pressure rate as a substitute for line play, because it tells you nothing about how quick it was. NextGen I think has something better they recently launched which is supposed to account for this, but not publicly available. Just eyeballing it, his time to throw has actually gone up the last 2 weeks, which would suggest that he's getting more pressure in part because he's holding it longer. Now it's still pretty short time, not bottom of the league, and we run a lot of short stuff, but still bad, and occasional jailbreaks.

The line is bad, the WR are mid... they aren't terrible, and we saw this week a lot of plays where the problem was decidedly Mac Jones, not the line or the WRs. His decision making was far too slow on many plays, the WRs were getting decently open against DAL for example.
 

rodderick

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THe line is definitely a problem, which is why rest of year is to evaluate it, but.... I hate the use of pressure rate as a substitute for line play, because it tells you nothing about how quick it was. NextGen I think has something better they recently launched which is supposed to account for this, but not publicly available. Just eyeballing it, his time to throw has actually gone up the last 2 weeks, which would suggest that he's getting more pressure in part because he's holding it longer. Now it's still pretty short time, not bottom of the league, and we run a lot of short stuff, but still bad, and occasional jailbreaks.

The line is bad, the WR are mid... they aren't terrible, and we saw this week a lot of plays where the problem was decidedly Mac Jones, not the line or the WRs. His decision making was far too slow on many plays, the WRs were getting decently open against DAL for example.
Yeah, no one is arguing everything is good around Mac and he's the only problem, but the framing has always been "they need to do better around Mac, they need better coaching, better play calling, better receivers, better protection". Look, a lot sucks around him, but they need better QB play. We can't do "poor Mac" anymore. Whether the QB, the OL or the receivers are the biggest issue is up for debate, but they're all issues.
 

Dr. Gonzo

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Yeah, no one is arguing everything is good around Mac and he's the only problem, but the framing has always been "they need to do better around Mac, they need better coaching, better play calling, better receivers, better protection". Look, a lot sucks around him, but they need better QB play. We can't do "poor Mac" anymore. Whether the QB, the OL or the receivers are the biggest issue is up for debate, but they're all issues.
This was the first game where Mac, for lack of a better term, lost his composure, outside of screaming at Patricia/Judge. He spiraled after the strip sack, played frantic/hero ball, and never recovered until he was pulled. To follow up on the pressure rate tweet, Lazar also said that Mac's average time to throw of 3.18 seconds was the second-highest of his career. The Cowboys didn't blitz much, if at all, therefore the Cowboys dared Mac/pass catchers to beat them.

Mac did miss some throws/reads and tried to do too much. Do these pictures below seem like an aberration when it comes to who on the Pats are able to beat their man to get open? I'm not even sure what BoB can do outside of rub routes/picks to get pass catchers open let alone how he can get the run game going.

Trent Brown has been good/very good when playing but LG, C, and RT are not that great at the moment and after this season, the OL is, potentially completely revamped. Andrews is old and Onwenu doesn't look worthy of a tag or extension post surgery.

Long story short, the offensive side of the ball is average to below average now and I don't see how it improves this season. I also have no faith in BB the GM being able to fix it. Hopefully going against good/great defenses in the Cowboys, Jets, Eagles are skewing some things but the glass is below half full at the moment.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1708859115777241409?s=20


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rodderick

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This was the first game where Mac, for lack of a better term, lost his composure, outside of screaming at Patricia/Judge. He spiraled after the strip sack, played frantic/hero ball, and never recovered until he was pulled. To follow up on the pressure rate tweet, Lazar also said that Mac's average time to throw of 3.18 seconds was the second-highest of his career. The Cowboys didn't blitz much, if at all, therefore the Cowboys dared Mac/pass catchers to beat them.

Mac did miss some throws/reads and tried to do too much. Do these pictures below seem like an aberration when it comes to who on the Pats are able to beat their man to get open? I'm not even sure what BoB can do outside of rub routes/picks to get pass catchers open let alone how he can get the run game going.

Trent Brown has been good/very good when playing but LG, C, and RT are not that great at the moment and after this season, the OL is, potentially completely revamped. Andrews is old and Onwenu doesn't look worthy of a tag or extension post surgery.

Long story short, the offensive side of the ball is average to below average now and I don't see how it improves this season. I also have no faith in BB the GM being able to fix it. Hopefully going against good/great defenses in the Cowboys, Jets, Eagles are skewing some things but the glass is below half full at the moment.

View: https://twitter.com/ezlazar/status/1708859115777241409?s=20


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The fact that defenders can play man and just squat on short/horizontal routes while funneling everything towards the sidelines is a indictment on Mac as well. No one is afraid of either being beat deep by Patriots receivers, or being beat deep by Mac's arm. Also think Evan is better than the screenshot stuff, that's kinda bullshit. Like, Juju to me is NFL open in the second pic, but whatever. Every aspect of the offense sucks in terms of personnel, if last year was all about Mac the Martyr, this year I feel sorry for Bill O'Brien. As you said, what can anyone cook up here?
 

Dr. Gonzo

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The fact that defenders can play man and just squat on short/horizontal routes while funneling everything towards the sidelines is a indictment on Mac as well. No one is afraid of either being beat deep by Patriots receivers, or being beat deep by Mac's arm. Also think Evan is better than the screenshot stuff, that's kinda bullshit. Like, Juju to me is NFL open in the second pic, but whatever. Every aspect of the offense sucks in terms of personnel, if last year was all about Mac the Martyr, this year I feel sorry for Bill O'Brien. As you said, what can anyone cook up here?
Agreed.

Thornton is about the only option, hopefully this Sunday, to threaten stretching the field vertically. I just don't know who he takes snaps from. Douglas needs to be on the field for than 33% of the snaps as well.
 

8slim

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Among the many other offensive issues… what the hell happened to our long run of great pass catching RBs? We’re on our second year post-James White, and the answer is Ty Montgomery?

Prior to White we’ve had guys like Dion Lewis, Shane Vereen, etc. Hell, even Brandon Bolden turned in a good season of pass catching in 2021.

I get that Rham is multi-purpose, but if they intended to lessen his workload this season then they needed a legit pass catcher out of the backfield. Washed Zeke and Ty ain’t it.
 

SMU_Sox

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If you put this group of pass catchers on the 49ers or Eagles, they'd be lighting up the scoreboard. Those teams have terrific schemes, awesome offensive lines, and good running games. The receivers would be doing great on those teams.
Eagles fan here as well and I don't agree remotely. The Eagles have guys in AJB and Slim Reaper who have to win by beating man coverage - not everything they do is an easy schemed up look. Plus if you watched the Eagles pre-AJB they weren't exactly lighting the scoreboard on fire either. They would also not be lighting up the scoreboard for SF. SF goes for fast RAC guys. Henry might be a TE2 there but would not be producing like their TEs. He doesn't have the same juice that Kittle does. He also doesn't generate the RAC that he does. Aiyuk is an actual X who consistently beats press and is much faster than Parker. Also better RAC. Boure might do ok as a Deebo replacement. But this to me is fantasy land. SF and PHL actually spend a lot of resources on pass catchers so they don't end up like this and saying they can do it with anyone is just flat-out wrong.

Not really sure I agree.
On paper, it looked like you had very good to good players at RG, C and one tackle spot (Trent Brown), a young LG who ended his rookie year playing around league average, and some journeyman starters at RT.. plus some rookies.

On paper that line is pretty decent, expectation on it should have been league average, maybe better. Problem is basically everyone got hurt, they never got to practice and play together, and it's a mess.
Reiff and Anderson weren't even average answers to RT but Anderson, Strange, Onwenu missing camp just crushed them.

It's much like when people knock the Wynn pick... Wynn was a good starting tackle, he was a good pick... then his body fell apart, and he fell to a level of athleticism that wasn't viable in the NFL anymore, that sucks but it's also the NFL, you can't predict injuries.
What if I told you that Wynn is playing LG at a high level for the Fins right now. Moving him to RT when he hadn't played on that side for years was dumb. Not every guy can handle a switch and he couldn't. Had they just used him at LG... maybe you don't have to take Strange and you can draft differently that year.

The fact that defenders can play man and just squat on short/horizontal routes while funneling everything towards the sidelines is a indictment on Mac as well. No one is afraid of either being beat deep by Patriots receivers, or being beat deep by Mac's arm. Also think Evan is better than the screenshot stuff, that's kinda bullshit. Like, Juju to me is NFL open in the second pic, but whatever. Every aspect of the offense sucks in terms of personnel, if last year was all about Mac the Martyr, this year I feel sorry for Bill O'Brien. As you said, what can anyone cook up here?
I think you're right that is a combination of both but who besides Parker, who is NOT good, has a realistic shot of winning outside? Seriously... no one that's who.



As for rebuilding it starts with your assessment of the OL. LT: Brown is a FA and has a history of some volatility in all the ways one can be volatile (well minus legal shit). LG: Strange is hurt but has looked awful trying to play through it. C: Andrews is in firm decline - is Jake Andrews ready to be in that role next year? RG: Either Onwenu, Sow, or Mafi probably here (they say they view Sow as an RT though). Personally I don't think Mafi is on the same level as big Mike. Mike is so much better in pass pro. Mafi is at least a year away from being able to handle an NFL starting job and imo his pass pro won't get there. Could be wrong but he was a dumpster fire in pass pro in college and has athletic limitations that hurt him there. RT is still a mystery box - Sow is a longshot and Anderson might be a 1 year solve.

You can see there are a lot of issues going forward with the line and while some of them may have internal solves we don't know what they think about each player. There is a possibility that we see 3 or 4 new guys starting next year! There is also a possibility they just bring in an RT and internally solve everything else. It's a problem though. This line is 31st or 32nd worst at pass pro this year so far and were a bottom third unit last year. Trending the wrong way and needs potentially a lot of resources.

TE: Henry is an FA and probably has another 1-3 years left in the tank. He's been good. I'd re-sign him. Might also want to draft a more dynamic guy but... you could say that for a lot of positions.

WR: You need someone who can win outside and it doesn't have to be an X but it better be someone. They don't even have to be a burner either. You can win enough with a Hogan or LaFell or even a Jules! You can't win outside with Parker and Bourne enough to have an answer for when the defense tells you to go outside. You absolutely have to draft a guy and keep drafting guys high.

QB: If you want a throw-back pocket passer that is still OK in this league. Not ideal but ok. If you go with a pocket passer be prepared to invest more in the OL. Even the scramblers and out of structure guys also tend to do well in structure so protecting them is important too. You can scheme around a bad OL if you have really good weapons. You can have some success scheming around a bad group of pass catchers if your OL is top notch. If you can't have both then at least get OL who can run block well and get good weapons.

Offensively don't change coordinators every year. Try to find someone who is innovative and build up the offensive side of the ball coaches. Or, if BB is gone, replace him with a guy who can constantly innovate his offense - that is the most important unit. You want someone like a McVay or Shanny or Reid. CEO type coaches can absolutely still work but you can also get a CEO type who is more offensive-minded like... the guys above.

I wish I could say on offense: at least they have this _____ but given who is a FA, age, talent level, they have absolutely no one I'd want to build a team around. Don't pay RBs on second contracts so Rham is out. Douglas and Boutte might have something but neither guy right now is established. They have some pieces I'd be ok with being on a future team including Mac but no one I think is untouchable or at that top shelf level that you form an identity around.
 

Strike4

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This was the first game where Mac, for lack of a better term, lost his composure, outside of screaming at Patricia/Judge. He spiraled after the strip sack, played frantic/hero ball, and never recovered until he was pulled.
I feel like a huge unaddressed issue is that Mac has been jerked around so much, and dealt with poor receivers, and terrible pass protection, that he has like QB PTSD. You can almost see it when he gets in frantic mode with happy feet and really jerky movements - it's instinctive. And I think he's been Pavloved to go with hero ball since there's no other option, and even when he doesn't really have to do it, he does and makes mistakes.

And I don't even know what the Patriots can do about the offense. It's a mess in so many aspects. Like, the O-Line might improve but how do you stop the penalties and mistakes?
 

SMU_Sox

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I feel like a huge unaddressed issue is that Mac has been jerked around so much, and dealt with poor receivers, and terrible pass protection, that he has like QB PTSD. You can almost see it when he gets in frantic mode with happy feet and really jerky movements - it's instinctive. And I think he's been Pavloved to go with hero ball since there's no other option, and even when he doesn't really have to do it, he does and makes mistakes.

And I don't even know what the Patriots can do about the offense. It's a mess in so many aspects. Like, the O-Line might improve but how do you stop the penalties and mistakes?
For sure - they have put him into a situation which tends to break rookie QBs. Poor OL in 2022-2023, poor pass catchers, and 3 OCs in 3 years. You could do worse but you could do so much better.
 

SMU_Sox

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sezwho

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Among the many other offensive issues… what the hell happened to our long run of great pass catching RBs? We’re on our second year post-James White, and the answer is Ty Montgomery?

Prior to White we’ve had guys like Dion Lewis, Shane Vereen, etc. Hell, even Brandon Bolden turned in a good season of pass catching in 2021.

I get that Rham is multi-purpose, but if they intended to lessen his workload this season then they needed a legit pass catcher out of the backfield. Washed Zeke and Ty ain’t it.
Just thought I’d pile on here a bit re the bolded. How about the way back machine with Keith Byars or David Meggett or even Kevin Faulk? This h back style threat out of backfiel always felt like it opened things up on a BB team and I think it would’ve this year too.
 

BaseballJones

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This is where I really wish JJ Taylor had made the team. Not because he's small like Dion Lewis but because he's dynamic. Yes he has huge problems in pass protection, apparently, which is a huge reason why he never really has made it. But with the ball, he's pretty electric.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why Douglas doesn't play more. He seems like a PERFECT receiver for this team, and is one of the few guys who can really break a big play.
 

8slim

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Just thought I’d pile on here a bit re the bolded. How about the way back machine with Keith Byars or David Meggett or even Kevin Faulk? This h back style threat out of backfiel always felt like it opened things up on a BB team and I think it would’ve this year too.
Danny Woodhead too.

I guess that role vanished when McDaniels left? His last year saw White grab 12 catches in the 3 games before his injury, and then Bolden grabbed 41 taking over that spot. Which was 2X his prior career high.

Then McDaniels left and it was all on Rham to do it all last season. Montgomery hasn’t been active in the pass game for years, and obviously Zeke’s receiver production fell way off last season. So it doesn’t seem like BoB is prioritizing it.

Having a good pass catching RB should be a binky for a developing QB. Just another head scratcher for me.