From the http://www.sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-red-sox-will-retire-wade-boggs-number-on-may-26.12251/ thread.
Should Wade Boggs' number 26 be retired by the Red Sox?
Should Wade Boggs' number 26 be retired by the Red Sox?
Poll: Should the Red Sox Retire Wade Boggs' Number?
- Thread starter threecy
- Start date
Specifying that Dwight Evans's 24 should have been retired before Manny ever had a chance to wear it. Now Price. Gah.
"No, because retiring numbers is a silly way to recognize great players" should have been one of the options. But failing that, #1. Or maybe #2. I'm not sure the difference matters much. I guess you could argue that the "finished with the Sox" thing became moot when Fisk's number was retired, but that was a bit of a special case because of the circumstances of his departure. It became 100% moot when Pedro's was retired.
Waiting for the Shirley-Jackson-with-math response the first time someone picks #4.
Waiting for the Shirley-Jackson-with-math response the first time someone picks #4.
I voted Ross Perot, as I assumed it meant "other". We've all made our points elsewhere. End of day, if there were an option for "I could give two shits either way", that would have been my vote.
As to other players before him, there's none I'm strongly for other than Clemens, but I would have liked to see #5 get the Clemens/Pedro treatment of being unofficially retired and just never handed out again. Of all people, Rocco Baldelli? At the very least, it would have nice to see it handed down to X.
As to other players before him, there's none I'm strongly for other than Clemens, but I would have liked to see #5 get the Clemens/Pedro treatment of being unofficially retired and just never handed out again. Of all people, Rocco Baldelli? At the very least, it would have nice to see it handed down to X.
This is seriously an issue? With anyone? Should the Red Sox retire the number of a guy who not only spent the majority of his career in Boston, and is a hall of fame player, but also one of the best hitters of the last forty years?
You're saying he was a dick? Were Ted Williams and Yaz cuddly teddy bears?
I am having a hard time seeing the controversy here.
You're saying he was a dick? Were Ted Williams and Yaz cuddly teddy bears?
I am having a hard time seeing the controversy here.
To me, retiring a number should just be an official acknowledgement of something already obvious to everyone: that a player is so iconic and revered that it would be absurd for anyone after him to ever dare to wear his number. It should be the ultimate honor, even greater than the HOF. Someone transcendent both in terms of accomplishment and legacy. Under that standard, I wouldn't retire Boggs' number, but then I wouldn't have retired Rice's or Fisk's either. I'd have just 4, 6, 8 and 9. 45 would be next. But given that Rice and Fisk are already up there, Boggs (and Clemens) should be as well.
A different ownership made the arbitrary rules. Frankly I'm surprised the current group clung to them at all. Had they not, Boggs probably would have gone up as soon as he was enshrined in Cooperstown, just like everyone else since Yaz (except Pesky, of course).
Instead, this "controversy" has resulted. Silly really.
This is where I'm at, except Cronin doesn't belong with the others; he was a marginal HOFer who played roughly half his career elsewhere.
Think of how special Pesky's honor would be if he was joining a club that only contained Williams and Yaz, or Pedro's honor if he were joining only those three. Doerr and Rice are close cases, but once you put Cronin and Fisk up there, the honor has lost its luster -- it's just "this is how we recognize HOFers who spend at least half of their prime years here." Which, to be fair, is what most MLB teams do.
Interestingly, I don't remember anyone being upset when Fisk was honored. A lot of this has to do with value judgments we make about human beings whom we know basically nothing about.
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Considering Williams was named "Teddy" at birth, I just found the choice of comparison funny here.
Disagree. I actually think the number retirement -- a team-specific honor -- is perfect for guys who aren't nationally recognized in the Hall of Fame but deserve to be recognized by their franchise anyway.
I think the best example of this is Varitek. Tek played 1,500 games with the Sox, was team captain, and helped win 2 World Series championships... but he will never be in the Hall of Fame. In some ways I would rather give him some kind of recognition than a guy like Fisk, whose baseball achievements have already been recognized in many other ways.
I too think there was something special about 9 4 1 8; it was elite company. Doerr and Pesky may appear to be borderline, however they, along with Williams, lost one or more years during their prime by serving our country, so I think that counts for something.
With the current standards, I think Dwight Evans should be up there before Wade Boggs, with Clemens and Pedro to follow, then Ortiz.
With the current standards, I think Dwight Evans should be up there before Wade Boggs, with Clemens and Pedro to follow, then Ortiz.
If Fisk is in then Boggs should be too. No longer do you have to finish your career with Boston or even spend 80% of your career with them. This sets the stage for Pedro and Roger down the road. Heck, maybe even Manny. All of these guys are HOF'ers or will be one day (once the steroid moralists in the BBWA move on). Dwight Evans should be a HOF'er too and his number retired, but he isn't and may never get in unless the veterans committee adds him.. I guess the new standard is being a HOF'er and spending more than half your career with the Red Sox.
I always loved to watch Boggs hit, but I never really connected with him as a fan as I was into HR and RBI's in those days, but I appreciate him more today as a player.
I always loved to watch Boggs hit, but I never really connected with him as a fan as I was into HR and RBI's in those days, but I appreciate him more today as a player.
I can't wait til we finally retire #45. What a glorious day that will be.
As for Boggs, I feel like if he's up there, Evans should be up there. But I'm not sure either necessarily should be, plus some others after 9 4 1 8.
By today's standards, it's deserved, but the timing just feels weird. By past standards, it doesn't measure up at all.
Interestingly, 24 hasn't been given out since 2009 (one year after Manny left). Also, Varitek's 33, Eck's 43, and Wakefield's 49 haven't been given out since 2011.
As per the other thread, I think one can make the argument now that the Hall of Fame requirement is gone (Pesky). I think one can even make the argument that the 10 year requirement is questionable (Fisk and Cronin only played 6 full seasons, Pesky 7, with the Red Sox). Obviously the finishing-career-with-Sox requirement is gone with Fisk. So in other words, one can suggest there are criteria and thus anyone and everyone the ownership chooses can have their number retired.
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If they are going to be opening the rules, then it is literally impossible to be a thinking baseball fan and not come to the conclusion that Boggs deserves it. His Red Sox career is better than Fisk's.
So to me, the way this breaks down is you can only vote "no" if:
1. You want to keep the club super exclusive and were a little annoyed Fisk was included in the first place. Basically, you want it to be 9 4 1 8 until it's time for 2 & 50 to go up there.
2. You want to keep it "guys I really liked who meet some vague requirement level in my head."
I find it odd that Boggs and Clemens are so universally under appreciated here, given the demographics of the place and the fact that those two guys are the overwhelming reason the Red Sox were relevant from 1985-1991. I think more people here read Shag as gospel while they were teenagers than would now admit. It's fine if you want to say they are a couple of douches because of how they left the Red Sox, whatever, but many of you project that feeling onto their actual on field accomplishments as Red Sox.
So to me, the way this breaks down is you can only vote "no" if:
1. You want to keep the club super exclusive and were a little annoyed Fisk was included in the first place. Basically, you want it to be 9 4 1 8 until it's time for 2 & 50 to go up there.
2. You want to keep it "guys I really liked who meet some vague requirement level in my head."
I find it odd that Boggs and Clemens are so universally under appreciated here, given the demographics of the place and the fact that those two guys are the overwhelming reason the Red Sox were relevant from 1985-1991. I think more people here read Shag as gospel while they were teenagers than would now admit. It's fine if you want to say they are a couple of douches because of how they left the Red Sox, whatever, but many of you project that feeling onto their actual on field accomplishments as Red Sox.
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In my case, I didn't really start paying attention to baseball much until 1993, and wasn't really a Red Sox zealot until Opening Day 1995. For me, Wade Boggs was a guy who was here once upon a time, and was kind of a jerk, from what I heard. So I think age plays into it a lot for some folks.
As for Dwight Evans, a while back my cousin asked me "how is Ozzie Smith a first ballot hall of famer, and Dwight Evans didn't get in?"
Longish exchange, if it's interesting to you guys or not...:
And later added, when questioned on WAR by position:
As for Dwight Evans, a while back my cousin asked me "how is Ozzie Smith a first ballot hall of famer, and Dwight Evans didn't get in?"
Longish exchange, if it's interesting to you guys or not...:
And later added, when questioned on WAR by position:
I suspect being flashy has a lot to do with it; I remember seeing Ozzie Smith on the news a lot for his backflips et al, whilst Dwight Evans appeared to quietly do his job, and do it well.
I did not say that. I was putting out a thought as to why Ozzie Smith made it in on the first ballot, yet Dwight Evans never made it in.
I stand corrected. You think he was a first ballot HoFer because he did backflips.
I also did not say that. Once again, I'm suggesting theories as to the gap between Ozzie Smith and Dwight Evans.
And yes, perception does matter. The types of reporters/columnists who get knocked in the press forum on a regular basis were the ones who vote players into the Hall of Fame.
I suspect another reason Evans suffered at the ballot box is that most of his career was overshadowed by the peaks of other teammates, and that his potential big home run year was shortened by the strike. Otherwise, he was often runner up in WAR to top position players on the team seemingly on an HOF trajectory, named Yaz, then Lynn, then Rice, then Boggs. Lynn's peak was comparatively short, as was his Red Sox career, otherwise the others have had their numbers retired.
I can see it now. The front office overlooks that this honor is as subjective as it is objective. Boggs' number is retired. The ceremony is on a misty cool day and there are many empty seats. When Boggs is announced there is a smattering of applause mixed with boos. Some chicken bones are thrown on the field and those attendees are escorted from the old barn. What a great moment in Red Sox lore.
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I happen to think Evans was vastly underrated nationally. But your attempts to find artificial reasons for the gap between his HoF votes and Ozzie Smith's are incredibly simplistic. Smith is legitimately a Top 10 shortstop in the history of the game. Evans, as strong as he was defensively and, eventually, offensively, is not a Top 10 outfielder. Not even close. That's what this comes down to -- yet you want to focus on peripheral matters and stereotyping voters.
Should Evans had received more respect in the vote? Absolutely. But, please, stop this nonsense that Ozzie Smith was elected because he was a fan or reporter favorite who was entertaining. The guy was a legitimate great player.
Now, I suggest we both leave this sidetrack alone so that we can focus on the issue at hand, which you stated earlier: Retiring Boggs' number so that they can eventually retire Pedro's.
Happy to leave this side track alone, but you continue to manufacture false claims. I never said he wasn't a great player. I never said he didn't deserve to be on the first ballot.
I would suggest that once Boggs' number is retired, we start a petition to the Red Sox to get Pedro's number retired: http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/history/retired_numbers.jsp
That's a fantastic article. Nicely done, and it will certainly help with anyone on the fence about this. Boggs was a huge part of my childhood fandom, and as a lefty ballplayer, I emulated his swing and did everything I could to get on base for the boppers behind me. His off-the-field antics never bothered me because I knew even back then that he was human. I never liked him signing with the Yanks, but damn if I wasn't happy for him when they won in '96. After being crushed in '86, how could you not be happy for him? Anyway, I'm glad the Sox are finally doing this and would love to be at the game on 05/26.
I always thought any newbie baseball fan should be given a copy of Ball Four. That should be the end of any pretensions of baseball players as role models or heroes. They are basically grown up human beings living a life of extended adolescence - with all that implies.
I voted "No/attitude" but only because it seemed closest to how I feel. I don't really care about the horse thing or the Rays hat in the HOF issue. Arguing he wasn't good enough is beyond silly. He is, and should be, a Hall of Famer. I believe to have you number retired you should have more than that. HOF numbers are just part of the equation for me. A player should have a connection to the franchise that is undeniable. Baseball fans across the continent, when asked about a player, should know exactly what team he played for without any hesitation at all. The number should be retired be cause no one else could ever be number 9 for the Boston Red Sox and Ted Williams could never be a baseball player other than number 9 for the Boston Red Sox. I am not saying that playing for another team disqualifies you, as Hank Aaron and Willie Mays are and always will a Brave and a Giant no matter where they ended thier careers. Babe Ruth is a Yankee.
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ted and Yaz. I'd be fine if they were the only two numbers up there.
Hypocrite alert: I'm sort of alright with Pesky. It makes no sense, but to me he is a Red Sox legend for other reasons. But I waiver on this one.
I've said it before and I will say it again: Ted and Yaz. I'd be fine if they were the only two numbers up there.
Hypocrite alert: I'm sort of alright with Pesky. It makes no sense, but to me he is a Red Sox legend for other reasons. But I waiver on this one.