I think The Kingdom will accept Jordan's challenge, and not in a PGA Tour friendly way. Good times!
PGA, LIV tours to merge
- Thread starter Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat
- Start date
SSGs investment means it's likely much easier for a PIF investment to get through regulatory, since they would no longer have as much influence over the TOUR. We'll see how it all plays out.
Generally speaking, when a bunch of wealthy businessmen decide to give "shares worth X" to a bunch of people who know nothing about business.... I'm highly skeptical.
Can the shares be sold? Who came up with this "12B valuation"?
Seems like a way to stop the talent drain and try to convince the players they are getting something of value without actually paying them anything (aside from prize $ of course)
Can the shares be sold? Who came up with this "12B valuation"?
Seems like a way to stop the talent drain and try to convince the players they are getting something of value without actually paying them anything (aside from prize $ of course)
I think this seems like the case, but viewership for the Zurich (team play) is not higher than other formats. Quite the opposite.
Ads overlaid on the course, a la hockey glass/boards, is discussed quite frequently, but the TV contracts for the TOUR are different than other sports in that the TOUR actually sells most of the ads and guarantees revenue to some degree. New/different ad revenue streams would require a number of parties to agree on a number of things that may not be in all parties' best interests. I do believe that the involvement of SSG (and PIF) will bring all of these things and more to the table in the future though.
By the same token, if billionaires agreed it's worth $12B and did so by investing $1.5-3B of their money, you have to believe they intend to make money off of that, which means selling "shares" to someone.
Maybe I misunderstood the press release (or your post), but it doesn't look like they are selling any shares.
Players seem to get shares with sweat equity. Stay here for X years and then get shares that vest over time. Will the shares have as much value as they claim? I suppose time will tell.
For the record, it's a common playbook in private equity take overs of medical practices (plus many other things I'm sure). Perhaps I'm projecting and this isn't actually what is going on with the PGA. But in general, these players are probably pretty naive and getting taken advantage of to some degree.
Having said that, at the moment they don't really own anything and live off of purses. So I suppose anything these monopoly $ shares are worth in the future, even if it's less than they are told, is just a bonus.
LIV has partnered with Google and will be rolling out a "Any Shot, Any Time" product that will allow viewers to watch any shot during a broadcast.
View: https://twitter.com/JoshACarpenter/status/1753034003437785098?s=20
View: https://twitter.com/JoshACarpenter/status/1753034003437785098?s=20
That's just it, it's not everything. I mostly watch things on HBO, Prime, and Disney and there are no ads. Then I turn on something like PGA Tour golf and it's sooo many ads. A quarter to a third of the content is ads? It's jarring. I was obviously used to it years ago but now it stands out because I'm becoming accustomed to not seeing them.
I don't see myself ponying up for ad-free PGA Tour golf either (if that even became an option). Rather leaning toward watching less. Which eventually becomes not watching. My cable services has already almost become a Red Sox game viewing service, but as more of their games move to pay-walled streaming I've been thinking the days of consuming broadcast television at home may be numbered.
Shares in private companies given to key stakeholders isn't really new or all that obscure. When the shares vest, they can sell them to whoever is willing to buy them for whatever they are willing to pay. My point was that a bunch of billionaires either believe that number will be higher than it is today, or they don't mind losing a lot of money.
Also, for clarity, it is not sweat equity in the PGA TOUR. The players are not labor. The TOUR exists only to service the players.
They presumably only get the shares if they stay on the Tour and don't go to LIV, right? They vest over time if they keep playing on the PGA tour. Call it whatever you want, but it's based on their continued participation on the PGA Tour and not jumping ship.
Instead of just giving $ to players like LIV, it sounds like the Tour has decided to entice players to stay with shares in this new PGA enterprise. While the shares I'm sure have some value (and could have a lot of value), that future value is also a lot more uncertain than getting money now like the LIV players are getting.
Firstly, none of us have any idea what the pay structure is for LIV. They certainly didn't get it all in a lump sum, so presumably they need to keep playing for LIV to earn their whole contract.
Secondly, that's how every stock grant works. It has a vesting schedule. If you leave before it all vests, you lose whatever hasn't vested yet. And it's always been used as a motivation to get talent to stay and to try to increase the value of the grants.
Secondly, that's how every stock grant works. It has a vesting schedule. If you leave before it all vests, you lose whatever hasn't vested yet. And it's always been used as a motivation to get talent to stay and to try to increase the value of the grants.
This overstates the liquidity of such arrangements but your point is generally true. These shares often come with significant transfer restrictions including rights of first refusal or other qualification criteria.
If executed well this will be a nice addition for golf coverage.
I've gotten into some YouTube golfers this past year, and this is definitely a page out of their increasing viewership. One of the pages I watch (BustaJack) consists of 2 guys who are near scratch golfers but would never really threaten tour pros. They had a hook about golfing in all 50 states last year and now are doing the 7 continents this year. The best part as a viewer is their videos showing the full round are edited to show every shot and some banter within 40 minutes or so.
If golf production could get to the state where it could be viewer's choice of sitting all afternoon on the couch and watching live or you could tune in 5pm Sunday, get the "executive summary" by blasting through all the shots from the leaders' rounds then catching up to see the last few holes live, that would at least be an offering to the non-traditional viewer.
I very much like Bryson's YouTube channel. I think the PGA Tour and the announcers / media did him dirty with their coverage of him.
Also watching Rick Shiels fail at literally everything he attempts to do is fun. He still believes he can accomplish something, anything though. Amazing.
Thinking about it I've probably watched more YouTube golf content than PGA Tour golf content over the past year.
Also watching Rick Shiels fail at literally everything he attempts to do is fun. He still believes he can accomplish something, anything though. Amazing.
Thinking about it I've probably watched more YouTube golf content than PGA Tour golf content over the past year.
Agreed. I watch a lot of it and, like @Pablo's TB Lover notes, a lot of these folks do a good job of putting together entire rounds in under an hour, which is manageable. To say nothing of watching some of the stupid challenge videos these folks cook up.
Cue the complaining about FSG not spending money on the Red Sox
https://nypost.com/2024/04/24/sports/tiger-woods-pga-tour-loyalty-worth-100-million-as-paydays-revealed/
"The Telegraph is reporting that players are receiving the money they earned by not bolting for LIV Golf and accepting the huge offers that were being made by the rival league.
Woods received the biggest payday at $100 million, with Rory McIlroy coming in at around $50 million.
The funds were made available after a group of investors led by Fenway Sports Group"
https://nypost.com/2024/04/24/sports/tiger-woods-pga-tour-loyalty-worth-100-million-as-paydays-revealed/
"The Telegraph is reporting that players are receiving the money they earned by not bolting for LIV Golf and accepting the huge offers that were being made by the rival league.
Woods received the biggest payday at $100 million, with Rory McIlroy coming in at around $50 million.
The funds were made available after a group of investors led by Fenway Sports Group"
"Active discussions" are back, whatever that means.
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/06/pga-saudi-liv-one-year-later-active-discussions-merger.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/06/pga-saudi-liv-one-year-later-active-discussions-merger.html
It is a shitshow. I haven't been following as closely because I don't have the time or energy, so this is basically where I gather things stand based on podcast listening:.
- The week after The Players, there was a pow-wow at Tiger's joint in the Bahamas between the Tour Policy Board and Al-Rumayaan. Apparently it was more of a get-to-know thing as opposed to real negotiations.
- Rory attempted to get back on the Board but there were "certain segments of the board" that were uncomfortable with this so it ultimately didn't happen. He was going to take Webb Simpson's seat. Rory wrote if off as more of a policy thing than any animosity between the other playing Board members (Tiger, Spieth, Cantlay, Malnati, Simpson, Scott).
- Jimmy Dunne, the guy who brokered and negotiated the original framework agreement, resigned his seat on the board, citing a lack of progress.
- Tour announces the creation of a "negotiation committee" that does include Rory (and I believe John Henry and Sam Kennedy- At least one of them).
- A second non-playing board member, Mark Flaherty, resigns.
- Xander has been lighting up Monahan recently.
15 months after the original agreement, 9 months after the deadline to sign said agreement, this shitshow is still dragging on. Apparently there were more negotiations last week and they are "inching" closer but Tour players are still miffed at the LIV guys for cashing in and want their pound of flesh.
While these clowns haggle over $, the product suffers and apathetic fans are abandoning ship.
It's time for the Tour players to accept some level of defeat. I'm sorry Rahm got $300 million while Tiger, Cantlay, Spieth, etc. turned down the money. Fans don't give a flying fuck. Get over it. The only path towards a better product is playing one the same tour again.
View: https://twitter.com/JoshACarpenter/status/1836009016289271915
While these clowns haggle over $, the product suffers and apathetic fans are abandoning ship.
It's time for the Tour players to accept some level of defeat. I'm sorry Rahm got $300 million while Tiger, Cantlay, Spieth, etc. turned down the money. Fans don't give a flying fuck. Get over it. The only path towards a better product is playing one the same tour again.
View: https://twitter.com/JoshACarpenter/status/1836009016289271915
Why do the TOUR players and not the LIV players have to admit defeat? Scottie just made >$60M. Outside of LIV putting in large sums of money, why would TOUR players invite any of the defectors back?
I don't see how it's in anyone, LIV or the PGA Tour, interest to just keep chugging along with the current status quo. Nobody watches LIV, it's a joke.The PIF is just pouring money down the drain. I don't like accepting their money but they just keep pouring it down the drain in perpetuity and there's no way for the PGA Tour to compete. I said nobody watches LIV, soon nobody will watch the PGA Tour. Ratings for the Masters when they both were together were down 20% from 2023. The Tour Championship was down 13%. The Players Championship, the flagship Tour event and arguably the best and most exciting Tour tournament of the year was down 15%. Ratings are down across the board. Anecdotally, our fantasy league on this board is on life support due to dwindling interest in the Tour. I don't see how the Tour players can look at that and say, you know what, we don't need those guys let's just keep doing what we're doing. How can the Tour possibly sustain the rising purses, which is necessary to avoid losing more to LIV, when ratings are falling off a cliff? Travellers, the ratings are down 15-20% but can you pay another $5 million so we can raise the purse to keep the players happy? How many sponsors have already left?
Admitting defeat was the wrong phrase to use but the mens professional golf world needs to get back together and figure out what is best for the product. Part of doing so is going to be the Tour players conceding on the LIV guys. Add a token fine or some kind of penalty are part of re-entry. Sure, it'll suck for the rank and file who are going to get squeezed more than the stars but I don't think I'm alone in saying I'd rather watch Jon Rahm, Brooks Koepka and Bryson DeChambeau competing against Scottie, Xander, Aberg more frequently than Sam Ryder and Justin Lower be the competition. I hate Bryson with the fire of a thousand burning suns but between his shenanigans and the YouTube channel, I can't possibly see how it would be a bad thing from a content and fan engagment standpoint to have him back on Tour.
I thought this was a reasonable analogy from Sobel, at least as far as the money is concerned.
View: https://twitter.com/jasonsobelgolf/status/1836045290446434760?s=46&t=23orJRFkAhpzRtm4p3-oEw
View: https://twitter.com/jasonsobelgolf/status/1836045290446434760?s=46&t=23orJRFkAhpzRtm4p3-oEw
#100 on the PGA Tour money list made $1.19M last year. They're wealthy enough to hold grudges even if it's costing (or will cost) money.
The companies "forging a partnership" thing sounds nice and reasonable and all but that's not really what happens is it? Are we talking about M&A? Usually one company consumes the other regardless of how the deal was intended or portrayed. The employees won't feel an over-abundance of control as this happens. The best may leave right away or be prepared to have to. Nor will they all get along. Leadership will either find a way to coexist, duke it out, and there will be winners and losers there too.
The companies "forging a partnership" thing sounds nice and reasonable and all but that's not really what happens is it? Are we talking about M&A? Usually one company consumes the other regardless of how the deal was intended or portrayed. The employees won't feel an over-abundance of control as this happens. The best may leave right away or be prepared to have to. Nor will they all get along. Leadership will either find a way to coexist, duke it out, and there will be winners and losers there too.
In this case, though, the merger is contingent on some type of agreement. It would be like if the employees of the original company had to ratify and agree to the terms of the partnership, and be compensated for doing so. The partnership didn’t just happen independently.
The only player of note gone from 2023 to 2024 was Rahm, and like you said, the Masters ratings were down as well. Maybe the ratings decline is a general trend or a Neilsen measurement issue?
SSG infused $1.5B going directly to the players with another $1.5 possible to invest in other projects. The network contracts were 10 year contracts, so ratings decline or no, that money isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The money is there for them to not have to feel as behind the eight-ball as you make it sound. I find it hard to believe that the players think things are so broken that they can't survive without 4-5 guys that literally tried, and continue to try, to take money and opportunities away from them. Furthermore, even a merger, or whatever you want to call it, does not guarantee you get all of the best players. What if Rory and Scottie are mad enough about taking those guys back that they decide they'll only play in majors? What if 14 existing events become LIV events held with LIV rules that no one cares to watch? It's really not as simple as just taking back the few "stars".
Except that the network contracts represent less than half of PGA Tour revenue, with a slightly larger chunk coming from the tournament sponsorships, of which they’ve already lost several, with murmurs of many more very unhappy with the lack of star power in their events. This money is at immediate risk. Likewise, the additional $1.5 billion from SSG appears to be predicated on reaching a deal with PIF, and it’s clear SSG wants such a deal to get done. Finally, the network contracts themselves almost certainly have termination clauses based on some combination of minimum ratings, minimum number of x-ranked players per event, as Mickelson has claimed, or simply an early opt-out provision, such as is contained in the MLB contract that it has been reported ESPN is leaning toward exercising.
