Pedro Martinez: the Yoda of Pitching

TheoShmeo

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One perhaps under emphasized aspect of Pedro's dominance in the 99-01 era, in particular, was the relative weakness of the rest of the Sox starting staff. I remember often thinking before Pedro starts that he had to win given his own level of dominance and what might reasonably happen in games he was not starting. Those teams were also not offensive juggernauts. A side by side of Boston's starting nine versus that of the MFYs in that period would never be all that flattering to the Red Sox. My point is that Pedro's performance in his peak years was all the more impressive given the pressure that he might have understandably felt to carry his fair share and then some.
 

TFisNEXT

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My one Pedro game at Fenway:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS200007230.shtml

Take a look at the lineup that Jimy Williams trotted out that Sunday afternoon with Ed Sprague batting cleanup. Egads.

Anyway, watching Pedro blow away those hitters in the 8th and 9th innings (5 K's) was something to behold.
And look at that beastly White Sox lineup....he made them look like high schoolers that game. Seeing Nomar's batting average of .391 in the box score there reminds me how late in the year he was still over .400 that year. I think it had just been a few days prior to that game. He almost made it back to .400 a few days later I recall.
 

tims4wins

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One perhaps under emphasized aspect of Pedro's dominance in the 99-01 era, in particular, was the relative weakness of the rest of the Sox starting staff. I remember often thinking before Pedro starts that he had to win given his own level of dominance and what might reasonably happen in games he was not starting. Those teams were also not offensive juggernauts. A side by side of Boston's starting nine versus that of the MFYs in that period would never be all that flattering to the Red Sox. My point is that Pedro's performance in his peak years was all the more impressive given the pressure that he might have understandably felt to carry his fair share and then some.
To this point:
The 98 Sox went 92-70. 22-11 with Pedro starting, 70-59 all others
99: 94-68; 26-5 Pedro, 68-63 all others
00: 85-77; 21-8 Pedro; 64-69 all others
2001 he was hurt for most of the second half.

So for that 3 year stretch: 69-24 (.742) with Pedro on the hill; 202-191 all others (.514)
 

TFisNEXT

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To this point:
The 98 Sox went 92-70. 22-11 with Pedro starting, 70-59 all others
99: 94-68; 26-5 Pedro, 68-63 all others
00: 85-77; 21-8 Pedro; 64-69 all others
2001 he was hurt for most of the second half.
The 2000 Red Sox had only 3 regulars in the lineup with an OPS+ over 100...Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Everett, and Trot Nixon. Only Garciaparra and Everett were over 110. It was a horrendously futile lineup. The only positive I guess it that lineup was probably a big motivation for them to sign Manny Ramirez after the season.

Still, it stings that they had like 2 MVP-caliber seasons in 2000 with Pedro/Nomar and couldn't do anything with it.
 

BaseballJones

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I just want to say that there can't ever be too much discussion about Pedro. I could talk about him forever. And I bet I'm not alone in that.
 

TFisNEXT

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We usually include right through 2003 in Pedro's dominance, but a line in his career definitely seems to be the June 2001 injury. Before that injury, he was other-worldly. Not human. He was continuing his 1999-2000 dominance before he injured himself in the Philly game (he would pitch twice more after that before his DL stint). In the games before Philly on June 9, 2001, he went 87 innings over 12 starts with a 13.6 K/9 and 1.9 BB/9 and a 1.44 ERA.

He would still be incredibly dominant in 2002 and 2003, but he never reached the 1999-2001 pinnacle again (you could include 1997 in there too...1998 seemed to be an adjustment year for him going to the AL). At least in terms of his pure filthiness and K numbers. That's more a testament of how good his peak was that he could fall off a bit and was still the best pitcher in baseball for a time. Maybe the 2001 injury made the perception worse too. I remember going through 2002 and 2003 just holding my breath every time Pedro winced or looked off. Just waiting for another injury. I still believe he got robbed of the Cy Young in 2002 though.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The 2000 Red Sox had only 3 regulars in the lineup with an OPS+ over 100...Nomar Garciaparra, Carl Everett, and Trot Nixon. Only Garciaparra and Everett were over 110. It was a horrendously futile lineup. The only positive I guess it that lineup was probably a big motivation for them to sign Manny Ramirez after the season.

Still, it stings that they had like 2 MVP-caliber seasons in 2000 with Pedro/Nomar and couldn't do anything with it.
It may have been motivation but Manny was the consolation prize that winter. The Sox originally pursued Mike Mussina in order to finally pair Pedro with another true top of the rotation starter rather than rookies and retreads. That failed when Moose went to the Yankees, so Duquette threw his eggs in the offense's basket with Manny. 2001 could have been such a different year with a healthy Pedro and Nomar (and Varitek). With most of the lovable Sox down, that team got downright loathsome by the end.
 

TFisNEXT

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It may have been motivation but Manny was the consolation prize that winter. The Sox originally pursued Mike Mussina in order to finally pair Pedro with another true top of the rotation starter rather than rookies and retreads. That failed when Moose went to the Yankees, so Duquette threw his eggs in the offense's basket with Manny. 2001 could have been such a different year with a healthy Pedro and Nomar (and Varitek). With most of the lovable Sox down, that team got downright loathsome by the end.
You're right, I had forgotten about them going after Mussina befre they signed Manny. 2001 also had the knee injury to Carl Everett and he never really came back from that as a productive player, and then of course he was shipped out after the season. What a train wreck of a season that was so promising in spring. I'll still always one soft spot for Jurassic Carl....his breaking up of the Mussina perfect game at Fenway that season with 2 outs and 1-2 count in the bottom of the 9th.
 

TheoShmeo

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I just want to say that there can't ever be too much discussion about Pedro. I could talk about him forever. And I bet I'm not alone in that.
You are not. His combination of other worldly pitching, especially in 99-01, and infectious and truly lovable persona, makes him someone I never tire of discussing and reading about,

And thanks much @tims4wins and @TFisNEXT for doing the leg work on my point. I think we all have a sense of the relatively thin talent pool around Pedro, but those numbers really underscore it well.
 

tims4wins

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You're right, I had forgotten about them going after Mussina befre they signed Manny. 2001 also had the knee injury to Carl Everett and he never really came back from that as a productive player, and then of course he was shipped out after the season. What a train wreck of a season that was so promising in spring. I'll still always one soft spot for Jurassic Carl....his breaking up of the Mussina perfect game at Fenway that season with 2 outs and 1-2 count in the bottom of the 9th.
Jurassic Carl gets a lot of flak on SoSH (and it is mostly well deserved), but he was a beast in 2000, especially during the first half. At the AS break he was hitting .329 / .403 / .647 with 24 HR and 69 RBI. That is like JDM numbers this year. He fell off second half (.261 / .329 / .502 with 10 HR and 39 RBI) but he was damn good for a while.
 

TFisNEXT

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Jurassic Carl gets a lot of flak on SoSH (and it is mostly well deserved), but he was a beast in 2000, especially during the first half. At the AS break he was hitting .329 / .403 / .647 with 24 HR and 69 RBI. That is like JDM numbers this year. He fell off second half (.261 / .329 / .502 with 10 HR and 39 RBI) but he was damn good for a while.
Anecdotally I recall the fan base started turning on him after the head-butting incident in late July of 2000. That lineup could ill-afford to lose a hitter like Everett for 10 games and they were fighting for their wildcard lives when that happened. They lost some close games too during his suspension to the Twinkies IIRC and I think the infamous Seattle 19 inning game was also when he was out. I recall him hurting his knee too in the Pedro beanball game in TB a few weeks later...that seemed to be the start of his knee troubles that ultimately derailed his run as an elite hitter. Too bad....a phrase we seem to often repeat for the 2000-2002 years. I think most of us just wanted to see Pedro get another crack or two in the postseason while he was still at his peak....those were the years where you truly felt like you couldn't lose with Pedro on the mound which would be amplified in the playoffs with 5 and 7 game series.
 

Dahabenzapple2

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That’s right. Some other top pitchers of the era’s K/9, regular season, were

CY Young 3.4
Christy Mathewson 4.7
Grover Cleveland Alexander 3.8
Eddie Plank 4.5

Jumping ahead a few years,
Lefty Grove 5.2
Carl Hubbell 4.2

Even Bob Feller only had 6.1. Could say that Nolan Ryan ushered in the strikeout era with his 9.5 K/9.
and the greatest strikeout pitcher of the Dead Ball era was easily the *great* Rube Waddell who had a career k/9 of 7.0 and consecutive seasons (leading the league every year) starting in 1902 of 6.8, 8.4, 8.2, 7.9, 6.5, 7.3 & 7.3.

The total K's are almost as spectacular given the time-frame in which he pitched: 210, 232, 349 (!!!), 287, 196, 232 & 232. Only in the last year (1908) was he not the league leader in total K's.

He also led the league in 1900 with a 5.6 k/9
 

Eagle3

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I'm not conflicted. A Red Sox employee should NOT be helping any opposing players, especially a Yankee. Period. Anybody else would (and should) get fired.
Edit: Dont get me wrong, I love Pedro, but not as much as I hate the Yankees. If he wasnt an employee of the Sox I still wouldn't like it, but would understand it. With him as an employee it's totally unacceptable to me
 
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S. H. Frog

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You're right, I had forgotten about them going after Mussina befre they signed Manny. 2001 also had the knee injury to Carl Everett and he never really came back from that as a productive player, and then of course he was shipped out after the season. What a train wreck of a season that was so promising in spring. I'll still always one soft spot for Jurassic Carl....his breaking up of the Mussina perfect game at Fenway that season with 2 outs and 1-2 count in the bottom of the 9th.
Pinch hit, too. That was Kerrigan's best move as a manager: pinch hit the meanest son-of-a-bitch on the team to break up the perfect game.
 

santadevil

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I'm not conflicted. A Red Sox employee should NOT be helping any opposing players, especially a Yankee. Period. Anybody else would (and should) get fired.
Edit: Dont get me wrong, I love Pedro, but not as much as I hate the Yankees. If he wasnt an employee of the Sox I still wouldn't like it, but would understand it. With him as an employee it's totally unacceptable to me
Wow...that's amazing

What is Pedro's official title with the team again? He's been a special assistant in the past and may be currently, but everyone knows that's a nothing title, just good press

In Spring Training, he's essentially a roving instructor, beyond that, he has his gig with the MLB Network

If the Red Sox are unhappy about this, I'm sure he'd tell them to pound sand and walk away from the team entirely. That does sound like something that would be good for baseball, you know, if you hate baseball
 

Detts

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Pedro has always been about promoting and developing kids from the Dominican. I have no problem with this. It’s just laundry.
 

timlinin8th

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I'm not conflicted. A Red Sox employee should NOT be helping any opposing players, especially a Yankee. Period. Anybody else would (and should) get fired.
Edit: Dont get me wrong, I love Pedro, but not as much as I hate the Yankees. If he wasnt an employee of the Sox I still wouldn't like it, but would understand it. With him as an employee it's totally unacceptable to me
That’s dumb.

First, he did it during the offseason, so it isn’t like whatever “duties” he has in his role with the Red Sox were missed. These aren’t nuclear secrets we are talking about, or proprietary data. It is coaching on how to throw a baseball.

In the spirit of competition, isn’t victory more satisfying when your opponents are performing to their peak potential? I hate when people discuss “the easy path through the playoffs” as it is trying to gain victory cheaply. I want Severino to be great - and then I want the Red Sox to beat him.
 

Reverend

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I'm not conflicted. A Red Sox employee should NOT be helping any opposing players, especially a Yankee. Period. Anybody else would (and should) get fired.
Edit: Dont get me wrong, I love Pedro, but not as much as I hate the Yankees. If he wasnt an employee of the Sox I still wouldn't like it, but would understand it. With him as an employee it's totally unacceptable to me
Why Canadian baseball fans love Pedro Martinez, and vice versa

https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/canadian-baseball-fans-love-pedro-martinez-vice-versa/

I love the Red Sox. But some things are bigger than others.

 

joyofsox

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My love for Pedro is boundless and we know Kershaw's ERA will rise as he gets older, but ...

Since 1900, there are 19 pitchers who have 2,000+ IP and an ERA under 2.50.
Kershaw ranks #9 at 2.37.
None of the eight guys ahead of him pitched after 1925. Kershaw is the only pitcher on the list who played after 1927.

Since 1900, there are 61 pitchers with 2,000+ IP and an ERA under 3.00.
Kershaw is #11. Pedro is #56.

But back to The Man:
In 1999, he allowed more than 3 earned runs only twice in 30 starts. He allowed 0, 1 or 2 runs in 24 of 30 starts!
On September 10, the Yankees did not hit even one fair ball on any of Pedro's final 52 pitches.
 

SirPsychoSquints

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My love for Pedro is boundless and we know Kershaw's ERA will rise as he gets older, but ...

Since 1900, there are 19 pitchers who have 2,000+ IP and an ERA under 2.50.
Kershaw ranks #9 at 2.37.
None of the eight guys ahead of him pitched after 1925. Kershaw is the only pitcher on the list who played after 1927.

Since 1900, there are 61 pitchers with 2,000+ IP and an ERA under 3.00.
Kershaw is #11. Pedro is #56.

But back to The Man:
In 1999, he allowed more than 3 earned runs only twice in 30 starts. He allowed 0, 1 or 2 runs in 24 of 30 starts!
On September 10, the Yankees did not hit even one fair ball on any of Pedro's final 52 pitches.
Pedro would have been 24 on that second list with a 2.58 ERA, not 56, if you stopped counting after 2003 when he had 2,079 innings (Kershaw currently has 2,016). And of course, run environment.
 

timlinin8th

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I assume it was a typo on joyofsox's part, as if you click on each link, you see Kershaw is 11th on both lists.
I think he may have oopsed his sort. When I first clicked the >2.50 ERA link it had the numbers sorted from worst to best, which had Kershaw as the 9th player on the list of 20 qualifiers.