Patriots Draft Discussion

soxhop411

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“@TyDunne: Sounds like #Patriots interest in Glenn Gronkowski genuine, too. K-State’s co-OC Dimel said they like him. Could be that No. 2 TE in ‘O.’”
 

Marciano490

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Any of you gurus have thoughts on Northwestern's Dean Lowery? He was one of my girlfriend's best friend's in high school, and she has nothing but positive things to say about him - son of a judge, never partied, never went out, spent all his time studying and training, lives to play in the NFL. It looks like he'll go at the end of the 7th round or undrafted, but he seems like a Pats type player with a lot of smarts and good work ethic, and some decent size even if not a ton of athleticism.
 

RedOctober3829

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Little bit of tooting my own horn, but I think the Patriots should look at Stony Brook's Victor Ochi as a situational pass rusher. He's a high motor, athletic player who reminds me of Bruce Irvin. 6'1" and 244 lbs so undersized. He went to the East-West Shrine Game and had a sack and 3 or 4 pressures. He's not a prototypical Belchick draft pick, but he has a ton of athletic ability and can really get after the quarterback. He'd be a nice guy to develop because he needs a strong support system around him.

Here is PFF's take on him from the Shrine game.
One of the great joys of the all-star circuit is seeing prospects from small school step up to the challenge of top competition, and at this year’s Shrine Game that player was Stony Brook’s OLB Victor Ochi. He was the top pass rusher in the game (+2.6), as he racked up a sack, a hit and three hurries. He also had three run stops, but did take a costly offsides penalty on a 4th-and-short play. Despite the penalty, Ochi was one of the real standouts of the game and certainly elevated his stock.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2016/01/25/draft-shrine-game-grades-vernon-adams-shines-in-west-win/

NFLDraftScout.com
The Stony Brook Seawolves have never had a player selected in the NFL Draft, but Ochi, who routinely stood out during Shrine practices, could change that. He has terrific first-step quickness to fire off the snap and power past the blocker's shoulder to the pocket. Ochi isn't twitchy and shows some tightness in his movements, but he's athletic and plays with the high motor.

At only 6-1, Ochi obviously lacks ideal height, but he has longer arms (33 1/2-inch) than most players his size, shooting his limbs at the point of attack and using his violent hands to fend off blockers. His lack of ideal measureables will take him off the board for several teams, but he has the talent to contribute in sub-package situations and a smart defensive coordinator will figure out how to use his strengths.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-draft-scout/25457310/shrine-game-five-prospects-who-created-buzz-among-nfl-scouts
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Little bit of tooting my own horn, but I think the Patriots should look at Stony Brook's Victor Ochi as a situational pass rusher. He's a high motor, athletic player who reminds me of Bruce Irvin. 6'1" and 244 lbs so undersized. He went to the East-West Shrine Game and had a sack and 3 or 4 pressures. He's not a prototypical Belchick draft pick...
Thanks, Red. Now, is BB still looking for those taller & bigger LBs? HT is just a little bit bigger at 6'3" and 260.

Actually, Ochi sounds like he has carbon-copy measurements for a certain Patriots HoF linebacker who was undersized and had a high motor. What about his instincts in recognizing plays?
 

Super Nomario

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Thanks, Red. Now, is BB still looking for those taller & bigger LBs? HT is just a little bit bigger at 6'3" and 260.

Actually, Ochi sounds like he has carbon-copy measurements for a certain Patriots HoF linebacker who was undersized and had a high motor. What about his instincts in recognizing plays?
Ochi's more of an edge rusher than an off-ball linebacker, and he's definitely small for a 4-3 DE.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/23/mayock-a-healthy-jaylon-smith-may-have-been-no-1-pick/

Curious from the smarty pants crowd's POV - any chance the injuries to Jaylon Smith and Myles Jack will push them out of the first round? I assume it'll take a big jump up, even if they fall to round two, but I'm just wondering about the possibility of landing a first round talent by rolling the dice a bit when the Patriots finally get to pick. I'm assuming these two are/were such hot prospects that even the injuries won't push them that far.

Edit BECAUSE AUTOCORRECT THINKS I MEANT "OF" INSTEAD OF "IF." FUCK YOU, AUTOCORRECT.
 

Super Nomario

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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/02/23/mayock-a-healthy-jaylon-smith-may-have-been-no-1-pick/

Curious from the smarty pants crowd's POV - any chance the injuries to Jaylon Smith and Myles Jack will push them out of the first round? I assume it'll take a big jump up, even if they fall to round two, but I'm just wondering about the possibility of landing a first round talent by rolling the dice a bit when the Patriots finally get to pick. I'm assuming these two are/were such hot prospects that even the injuries won't push them that far.

Edit BECAUSE AUTOCORRECT THINKS I MEANT "OF" INSTEAD OF "IF." FUCK YOU, AUTOCORRECT.
I agree the Smith and Jack will be gone - and if they're not, it probably means their medicals are really bad - but I think it's fascinating philosophical question. If you're the Pats, do you take a risk first-round talent who slips for off-field / medical reasons with the idea that you need to "steal" a first-rounder, or do you go conservative figuring that, with no first-round pick, you can't afford to miss on your second-rounder?
 

Dr. Gonzo

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I agree the Smith and Jack will be gone - and if they're not, it probably means their medicals are really bad - but I think it's fascinating philosophical question. If you're the Pats, do you take a risk first-round talent who slips for off-field / medical reasons with the idea that you need to "steal" a first-rounder, or do you go conservative figuring that, with no first-round pick, you can't afford to miss on your second-rounder?
They were fine taking a risky player, medically, in Easley in the first round therefore I don't see the thought process changing with a second round pick even with it being their first selection.
 

RedOctober3829

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Baylor all-conference forward Rico Gathers is trying to become the latest basketball player to transition to the NFL, and already is drawing the attention of teams.

"Football has been in my heart," Gathers told ESPN on Friday.

Gathers plans to arrange a private workout for NFL teams on an off basketball day or after Baylor's basketball season ends. He had wanted to work out for NFL teams at Baylor's Pro Day on March 16, but he will be playing in a basketball tournament.

Still, Gathers now seems determined to try to follow Tony Gonzalez, Antonio Gates, Jimmy Graham, Julius Thomas and others to become the latest in a long line of college basketball players who have transitioned to tight end in the NFL.

"I feel like it's a natural fit for me," Gathers said.

Gathers last played football when he was 14 years old, but at 6-foot-6, 275 pounds would be an imposing and inviting target for teams. One NFL team said Thursday it is interested in helping Gathers -- whose father is the cousin of the late Hank Gathers -- transition to tight end and the league.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14851844/rico-gathers-baylor-bears-arrange-private-workouts-nfl-teams
 

tims4wins

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This is pretty crazy. Derrick Henry has the exact same combine stats and measurables as Von Miller did 5 years ago

 

Super Nomario

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This is pretty crazy. Derrick Henry has the exact same combine stats and measurables as Von Miller did 5 years ago

Well, until Henry did the 3-cone and put up a time a full half-second slower than Miller. Miller dominated the agility drills; Henry only did the 3-cone and didn't do well. But he probably made himself some money with this 40 and jumps.

EDIT: actually, I don't think the RB have done the shuttles yet so Henry might still do them. The lesson, as always: I'm dumb.
 
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Jettisoned

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Could the Pats trade away their first round pick to some other team? The clause stating that if an acquired pick is higher, they lose the higher one means the pick hasn't vanished, it's just not allowed to be used by the Patriots while it's their highest pick. That doesn't stop some other team from using it if it's traded to them, right?
 

shoosh77

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Could the Pats trade away their first round pick to some other team? The clause stating that if an acquired pick is higher, they lose the higher one means the pick hasn't vanished, it's just not allowed to be used by the Patriots while it's their highest pick. That doesn't stop some other team from using it if it's traded to them, right?

Nope, can't trade it. From the thieves:

"For the violation of the playing rules and the failure to cooperate in the subsequent investigation, the New England Patriots are fined $1 million and will forfeit the club's first-round selection in the 2016 NFL Draft and the club's fourth-round selection in the 2017 NFL Draft. If the Patriots have more than one selection in either of these rounds, the earlier selection shall be forfeited. The club may not trade or otherwise encumber these selections."
 

pappymojo

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Theoretically, would this have prevented the Patriots from making an offer on a restricted free agent where the compensation was a first round draft pick?
 

BuellMiller

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Does the "encumber these selections" line mean they couldn't trade down to either Denver, Carolina, or Arizona, and at least get like a 7th rounder out of their troubles.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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MYRTLE BEACH!!!!
Theoretically, would this have prevented the Patriots from making an offer on a restricted free agent where the compensation was a first round draft pick?
There is no such thing for a few reasons.
1. NFL teams are awarded compensatory picks for losing more free agents than they sign. They do not forfeit picks for signing a free agent.
2. The picks arrive following the year that you lose the free agents (e.g. you lose Revis, Wilfork, Vereen, Ridley, Ayers, etc in 2015, you get picks in 2016)
3. NFL compensatory picks are 3rd round through 7th, so the 1st round doesn't come into play.
 

PaulinMyrBch

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Got it.

I would think the Pats would have been unable to do that. If we were to sign a restricted free agent who was offered a first round tender, we'd be encumbering the pick we don't have. I would guess if the player was one we wanted bad enough we could have worked out a trade. But I'd think we'd be prevented from doing that unless there is something in the CBA outlining what happens if you attempt to sign a RFA tendered in a round where you don't have a pick. Surely its come up before, but I can't find anything definitive.
 

joeflah

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2015 was a Pats only season for me. No NON-PATRIOTS games no stories or articles that weren't about the Patriots. At the instant the Patriots are passed over for their first round pick I'm am no longer an NFL fan. NFL = Dead to me. Fan since Pats initial season. Live in Los Angeles area, was expecting to catch them at the Rams in the coming seasons. Now, not!
There was this burger joint that pissed me off back in 1978, McDonalds or something like that, never went back. I think they're still around. You could look it up.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Louis Riddick calls S prospect Karl Joseph the best DB in the draft:
For those on mobile: "Karl Joseph best overall DB in draft..versatile,competitive, run support, blitz, tackle, zone pattern recognition, man skills, ball skills"

He's projected to go in the rounds 2-3. Missed most of 2015 with a knee injury, thus the lower projection. Sounds like a perfect Chung replacement:
Pound-for-pound one of the most physical players in the country, and plays much tougher than he looks. He loves violent contact and times his hits well to jar the ball loose. He plays fast and low to the ground to generate his power as a tackler, using leverage and reckless abandon as a finisher.

Joseph has quick reflexes to make explosive decisions and movements, shooting out of a cannon with an aggressive play style and never attacking half-speed. He strikes through his target and is a big hit waiting to happen.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1983624/karl-joseph
Joseph was having a tremendous 2015 season before a knee injury in practice ended his year after only four games. At the time of the injury, the senior was tied for the lead in the nation with five interceptions. He also had 20 tackles, one sack and one pass breakup.

Joseph was displaying nice coverage skills to go along with being a physical enforcer and good tackler. If it weren't for the injury, he would be in contention to be a first-round pick in the 2016 NFL Draft.
http://walterfootball.com/draft2016S.php#Xf97Ug3oc7jq8M0c.99
 

RedOctober3829

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Some players via Doug Kyed that the Patriots have been visiting, working out, or meeting with.

USC LB Su'a Cravens--meeting
Georgia OLB Jordan Jenkins--workout
UTSA TE David Morgan--workout
Michigan State DT's Joel Heath and Lawrence Thomas--workouts
ND S Elijah Shumate--workout
Hampton OT Torian White
Michgan LB Desmond Morgan--meeting
Georgia DE Sterling Bailey--private meeting with Belichick and Patricia
Cal TE/WR Stephen Anderson--workout
UCLA WR Devin Fuller--workout

http://nesn.com/2016/03/report-jordan-jenkins-among-draft-prospects-working-out-with-patriots/
 

soxfan121

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Anderson fits their profile, on tape, I think very well.

And Heath might as well pick out a number.
 

Saints Rest

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Some players via Doug Kyed that the Patriots have been visiting, working out, or meeting with.

USC LB Su'a Cravens--meeting
Georgia OLB Jordan Jenkins--workout
UTSA TE David Morgan--workout
Michigan State DT's Joel Heath and Lawrence Thomas--workouts
ND S Elijah Shumate--workout
Hampton OT Torian White
Michgan LB Desmond Morgan--meeting
Georgia DE Sterling Bailey--private meeting with Belichick and Patricia
Cal TE/WR Stephen Anderson--workout
UCLA WR Devin Fuller--workout

http://nesn.com/2016/03/report-jordan-jenkins-among-draft-prospects-working-out-with-patriots/
Has anyone ever taken the time to track them se players who the Pats worked out pre-draft? I wonder what percentage of them end up being drafted (or signed as un drafted FAs).
 

soxfan121

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Has anyone ever taken the time to track them se players who the Pats worked out pre-draft? I wonder what percentage of them end up being drafted (or signed as un drafted FAs).
Rich Hill @PatsPulpit does stuff like this. I would not be surprised if he had the raw data. Email him or tweet at him. An incredibly nice guy, and good site for you Pats-only fanatics.

But it rarely, if ever works out (no pun intended).

ETA: Seriously. If you are a Pats fan and you aren't on Marima's mailing list for daily Pats links, I don't think you're a good fan. She's the best in the business at compiling Pats content for Pats fans.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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North Dakota's Joe Haeg seems like one of those Scar special to me. He's projected to go in the 3rd/4th round, but he's got a lot of upside.

First, prototypical size and frame at 6'6" and 300 lb. Had a great Pro Day, and is rising in most boards it seems. The kicker for me is that this guy was a walk-on at NDSU and only weighed 250 lb when he did. The fact that he can already play multiple positions and is said to be very "coachable".

Everything reminds me of a slightly smaller Vollmer (6' 8" and 320 lb). He could be a 2nd rounder or (as I suspect) an early, mid-3rd rounder if NE trades one of the 2nd rounders.

Edit: So I'm slowly getting into the draft, and I got two picks lined up. 2rd/3rd for Haeg, and a 6th for Navy RB/QB (but really a future slot WR) Keenan Reynolds.
 
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RedOctober3829

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Rand Getlin ‏@Rand_Getlin 3m3 minutes ago
I'm told #OhioState safety Vonn Bell has (or has had) meetings, workouts and/or visits with the #Jets, #Patriots, #Panthers and #Giants.

STRENGTHS
Sheriff mentality looking to corral receivers on his side of the field. Has man cover talent. Instincts and reaction time are big assets. Trusts his eyes and fires downhill as soon as he reads throw. Capacity to meet ball at the catch point more than most cover safeties. Credited with 23 passes defensed over last two seasons. Able to mirror targets and strike a centered blow when flowing downhill. Plays with excellent feel for his responsibilities in space. Sifts through route combinations and always gets to his guy. Rarely out of position.
WEAKNESSES
Play speed looked very average on tape. Time-consuming sprint to boundary from single-high coverage to help over the top. Hip tightness impedes fluid flip and go when beaten in space. Occasionally gets caught peeking in on quarterback for too long and will briefly lose track of receiver. Against the run, allows running backs to get on top of him and deliver the first blow. Drag down tackler without much thud.
 

JohnnyK

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He is incredibly raw though. Apparently he has no real moves and his route running is basically nonexistent. He was a man amongst boys last year in Germany and he is certainly physically impressive, but I am not sure you can justify a roster spot for him.
 
Apr 7, 2006
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6th rounder? I could see the patriots taking a flyer on him with one of their multiple late round picks. Low risk, high reward.

Edit hit reply too soon.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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6th rounder? I could see the patriots taking a flyer on him with one of their multiple late round picks. Low risk, high reward.

Edit hit reply too soon.
After converting the German as a TE, watch the Patriots startle the league by going 4 TEs on regular downs with Gronk, Bennett, Harbor, and Boehringer.
 

ZMart100

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So is this the prospects for Patriots thread? If not, feel free to break out. Here are 3 players I find interesting and a few notes on what I see.

Willie Henry - DL - Michigan - 6'4" 329 lbs 33 3/8" arms 10 7/8" hands, 5.00 40, 30.5" vertical, 110" broad, 7.57 3 cone, 4.53 shuttle
Quick off the ball. Sheds blocks well and plays with good leverage. 2nd round.

Cyrus Jones - DB - Alabama - 5'10" 197 lbs 31 1/8" arms 9 1/8" hands, 4.49 40, 33" vertical 116" broad 6.71 3 cone, 4.21 shuttle
Football player. Good in press coverage. Excellent supporting the run. KR. 2nd round.

Daniel Braverman - WR - Western Michigan - (Pro Day) 5'9 7/8" 177 lbs, 4.47 40, 28 1/2" vertical, 112" Broad, 6.86 3 cone, 4.20 shuttle
Looks familiar. Marginal measured athleticism. Very productive in college, but didn't face the best competition. 7th round/UDFA
 
Apr 7, 2006
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I've heard a bunch about Cyrus Jones and I know next to nothing when it comes to which prospects will become good NFL players, but - for a guy who picked off a pass and ran back a punt for a TD, that video is not otherwise wildly impressive. He gives up a few completions, gets saved by an overthrow and a drop, muffs a punt and, well...I guess that's why someone as dynamic as he periodically appears to be is likely available in round two.
 

ZMart100

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I think that's right. Second round players often have upside that they haven't fully tapped.

Jones to me is a versatile CB/S. He's got the athleticism to be a good cover corner, but his technique needs work. I like his aggressive and physical play. Also, I think Alabama asks a lot at that position. Here are a few other interesting players that are closer to pure CBs.

Eric Murray - Minnesota - 5'11" 199 lbs 31 1/2" arms 9" hands 4.49 40, 39.5" vertical, 124" broad, 7.08 3 cone, 4.05 shuttle
Good in run support, adequate in coverage. 4th round.

De'Vante Harris - Texas A&M - 5'11 176 lbs 30 5/8" arms 8 1/2" hands 4.56 40, 38 1/2 vertical, 124" broad, 6.82 3 cone, 4.06 shuttle
Aggressive in coverage, gambles to much. Didn't see much of him in man to man. Physical. 6th round development CB/special teamer. (Highlight video, so not representative)

Daniel Davie - Nebraska - (Pro Day) 6'0" 190 lbs 4.37 40, 39" vertical, 127" broad, 6.85 3 cone, 4.06 shuttle
Raw. Injured much of 2015. Decent in coverage, but needs a lot of work tackling. 7th round/UDFA. He probably ends up on a practice squad. (No video, but you can watch him on youtube in Nebraska games).
 

Super Nomario

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I think that's right. Second round players often have upside that they haven't fully tapped.

Jones to me is a versatile CB/S. He's got the athleticism to be a good cover corner, but his technique needs work. I like his aggressive and physical play. Also, I think Alabama asks a lot at that position. Here are a few other interesting players that are closer to pure CBs.
What's your vision for what they would look for in a draft DB? Looking at the roster, they've got Butler and Ryan as starters, and second-year guys Justin Coleman and Darryl Roberts for the nickel role. They just signed E.J. Biggers, as well. That seems fine to me. So would a draftee be pure depth, a special teamer / developmental fifth or sixth corner, or someone who provides a different skill set than the top three or four guys? For instance, at 6'2" Deiondre' Hall of Northern Iowa would bring size they don't have with their other DBs. My other thought is someone like Jalen Mills, Sean Davis, or DeAndre Houston-Carson, all of whom have experience at both corner and safety, could provide depth in multiple roles. But I'm not sure they need to add anyone back there.
 

ZMart100

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I think the first priority is to find people who fit the system and then take the best player available. If they are going to bring in a "luxury" player, I would think they would want them to be versatile. To be honest, I'm not thinking much about roster construction at this point. I'm mostly looking for players who I think fit the profile of Patriots players.

I don't think height is a particularly valuable DB quality. On the one hand, height probably correlates with arm length and weight, which helps when jamming a receiver. On the other hand, it probably works against a player when they have rotate their hips from a backpedal. When I look at Deiondre' Hall, his measurables certainly fit the bill. However, I don't see what he does well on film. He's neither particularly good in run support nor in coverage from what I've seen.

I do think the Patriots are still looking for the big DB/LB hybrid that can match up against spread TEs. It seems like they have tried to find big safeties to fill that role (Tank Williams for example). That said, I don't have a good grasp of what that positional standard would look like.

I hadn't looked at Jalen Mills. He fits athletically. He looked ok in the tape I saw against Alabama, but lacked the aggressiveness I would like to see. I understand that he was playing on a broken leg in that game, so that probably isn't fair. I'd have to go back and look at some 2014 games.

I agree about Sean Davis (from Maryland for those not familiar), he's a good player. He's physical and has good instincts. I have him as a 4th round talent. I think he's a safety in the NFL who can be a corner in an emergency.

I hadn't looked at Houston-Carson because he doesn't fit the athletic profile I look for when I narrow my search, but he's close. Watching the Villanova highlights, I'm not sure he's good enough of a tackler to fit at NFL safety.

I also have Jordan Lucas from Penn State in that CB/S role. He's tough and competitive. I have him as a 4th round talent.

I have now (almost) emptied my DB quiver. So let me introduce one of my favorite RBs.

Darius Jackson - Eastern Michigan 6'1" 220 lbs (Pro Day) 4.40 40, 4.35 shuttle, 41 vertical, 133" broad, 6.82 3 cone, 4.27 shuttle
Good power with a little wiggle. Not asked to do much in the passing game. 3rd round talent (I know I'm probably alone on this). (Highlights)
 

Super Nomario

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I don't think height is a particularly valuable DB quality. On the one hand, height probably correlates with arm length and weight, which helps when jamming a receiver. On the other hand, it probably works against a player when they have rotate their hips from a backpedal. When I look at Deiondre' Hall, his measurables certainly fit the bill. However, I don't see what he does well on film. He's neither particularly good in run support nor in coverage from what I've seen.
Height also helps in 50/50 balls downfield, though it can been compensated for with wingspan and jumping ability. But I think you're right that it's been overrated. Somewhere buried on my to-do list is an analysis of which quantitative factors lead to cornerbacks being overdrafted - it certainly seems like teams pay a premium for height and 40 time and there are bargains to be found among the 5'10"-5'11" guys who run in the 4.5s. For what it's worth, the Pats already seem to have a bunch of guys like this, which may speak to a market inefficiency or a need to diversify for practical reasons. They had Jimmy Jean in camp last year, and Browner obviously in 2014, so it's not like they don't value size at all.

I do think the Patriots are still looking for the big DB/LB hybrid that can match up against spread TEs. It seems like they have tried to find big safeties to fill that role (Tank Williams for example). That said, I don't have a good grasp of what that positional standard would look like.
Isn't Chung this guy? He matches up on TE a lot and I think he's been a revelation in that role. He seems much more comfortable in man-to-man coverage than he ever did in zone.

I hadn't looked at Houston-Carson because he doesn't fit the athletic profile I look for when I narrow my search, but he's close. Watching the Villanova highlights, I'm not sure he's good enough of a tackler to fit at NFL safety.
I watched four or five of his games (profile here) and I think his tackling is in line with most college safeties. The intriguing things with DAHC are a) he played cornerback earlier in his college career and b) he's a great special teamer. He blocked something like seven punts and FGs in his W&M career. Special teams are pretty key for what would probably be an eighth or ninth DB. He had a lousy Combine, though (probably why he didn't show up in your search).

Darius Jackson - Eastern Michigan 6'1" 220 lbs (Pro Day) 4.40 40, 4.35 shuttle, 41 vertical, 133" broad, 6.82 3 cone, 4.27 shuttle
Good power with a little wiggle. Not asked to do much in the passing game. 3rd round talent (I know I'm probably alone on this). (Highlights)
You seem to have done a lot of looking into the draft. Have you considered writing for ITP?
 

Otto

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Someone didn't get the "we ask you to keep this confidential, out of social media .. " message.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Someone didn't get the "we ask you to keep this confidential, out of social media .. " message.
Bill obviously told him to post this so he'd drum up interest around the league, causing an unknown safety from Rutgers to drop to the Pats in round 7.