New 7 Year CBA Deal Done

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,769
Word.

Anyone who can sit out a quarter or more of his team's games probably doesn't need the slot. And probably didn't contribute as much. Imo this will still have some edge cases, but it solves more problems than it creates.
It's funny that nearly all the "edge cases" from the last couple years are from teams that were in the 6-10 type seeds. Yeah buddy, you sat out, and your team wasn't that good as a result. That counts.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,014
Melrose, MA
What they should have done is to make a really low GP threshold - say 41 games but then anyone who plays under 65 games gets his votes discounted by something like 5% per game under 65. That way we wouldn't have the "What if the best player in the world only hits 64 games" discussion.
Actually, I think this would be a mistake, unless the goal is more controversy around awards.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,355
Yeah, the edge cases will be far fewer as players and teams will know in advance the games played criteria. Highly unlikely to see a Giannis play 64 games. Also, Giannis is not impacted if he does not make All-NBA. All-NBA should not be a lifetime achievement award.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,622
Santa Monica
I'm not necessarily criticizing it - it would prbably have to stay limited to not reflect negatively on the player in the voting anyway.

I think if I am the NBA, and I think playing the occasional game on easy is an improvement over "maintenance days" then I would tacitly encourage it. Well, not encourage, exactly, but I would let it be known that for end of season awards, that will be an issue for the voters rather than the league.
Huge leads like that to begin Q4 are really rare where players can play "easy mode". 20point/4th quarter leads aren't even really safe (or 28pt leads when playing the Nets :oops:)

All-NBA (TOP15 players going forward) is basically the very best All-Stars, they usually have a disproportionate influence on those massive leads.

While TL is somewhat unique, it's something to watch with a player like Zion. I wouldn't expect him to ever play 65 games/year unless he loses 30-40lbs. Not sure it is worth it to NOLA or ZW (since he already MAX'd) to manipulate the GP/minutes situation.

For the virtue signalers around here (not you EJ), I'm not FAT SHAMING Zion, I'm strictly pointing out that his size & jumping ability will always put too much stress on his joints/feet/soft tissue.
 
Last edited:

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,733
around the way
For the virtue signalers around here (not you EJ), I'm not FAT SHAMING Zion, I'm strictly pointing out that his size & jumping ability will always put too much stress on his joints/feet/soft tissue.
FWIW, we're always talking about likelihoods of injury with these guys, not guarantees anyway. Zion's body type and play style is conducive to getting hurt. That doesn't mean that he will. So is Embiid's, and apart from early career, he's pretty durable. It is not and never should be deemed as shaming when you're pointing out that a guy has an unusual build for an NBA player. Sometimes those unusual guys are the best players like Embiid, Giannis, Charles Barkley.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,622
Santa Monica
FWIW, we're always talking about likelihoods of injury with these guys, not guarantees anyway. Zion's body type and play style is conducive to getting hurt. That doesn't mean that he will. So is Embiid's, and apart from early career, he's pretty durable. It is not and never should be deemed as shaming when you're pointing out that a guy has an unusual build for an NBA player. Sometimes those unusual guys are the best players like Embiid, Giannis, Charles Barkley.
100% agree.

GA getting affectionately labeled "the Greek Freak" which is a compliment and not out of disrespect, could send some snowflakes not familiar with NBA hoops over the edge.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,710
Somewhere
For the virtue signalers around here (not you EJ), I'm not FAT SHAMING Zion, I'm strictly pointing out that his size & jumping ability will always put too much stress on his joints/feet/soft tissue.
Do you have anyone in mind? Because as far as I’ve seen, this has been a consistent subject around these parts since Zion came into the league. Feels like an unnecessary pushback here.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,557
Yeah, the edge cases will be far fewer as players and teams will know in advance the games played criteria. Highly unlikely to see a Giannis play 64 games. Also, Giannis is not impacted if he does not make All-NBA. All-NBA should not be a lifetime achievement award.
Is it?

His last 4 seasons he's played 63 out of 73, 61 out of 72, 67, and probably 65 this year, and he's really not a load management guy.

64 or less seems like a pretty likely number of games for Giannis to play.

He was a rolled ankle away from going under all of the last 4 seasons.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,769
Is it?

His last 4 seasons he's played 63 out of 73, 61 out of 72, 67, and probably 65 this year, and he's really not a load management guy.

64 or less seems like a pretty likely number of games for Giannis to play.

He was a rolled ankle away from going under all of the last 4 seasons.
Then he doesn't get to win an award in the season where he rolls an ankle, because he lost a lot of regular season value?

We've had guys making All-NBA with low game totals the past few seasons, and their teams have lost tons of regular season value due to those absences, which should be reflected in awards.

I don't see why Kevin Durant or LeBron should have a god-given right to an All-NBA spot when their teams are getting 7-8 seeds due to them missing tons of games. But without clear guidelines, they were getting those spots repeatedly.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,769
To follow up: no one is more of a "the NBA is all about the playoffs" guy than I am, but these are regular season awards that weren't getting treated as such.
 

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,453
Imaginationland
Then he doesn't get to win an award in the season where he rolls an ankle, because he lost a lot of regular season value?

We've had guys making All-NBA with low game totals the past few seasons, and their teams have lost tons of regular season value due to those absences, which should be reflected in awards.

I don't see why Kevin Durant or LeBron should have a god-given right to an All-NBA spot when their teams are getting 7-8 seeds due to them missing tons of games. But without clear guidelines, they were getting those spots repeatedly.
I agree with all this, and what would (almost) happen with Giannis this year is just going to be the rare case where it doesn't work. If he had played 2-3 fewer games he wouldn't qualify for the 65 game minimum, but his team would likely still be the 1 seed. It's just the most extreme example.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,733
around the way
To follow up: no one is more of a "the NBA is all about the playoffs" guy than I am, but these are regular season awards that weren't getting treated as such.
I'm imagining the baseball equivalent of this where a guy misses out on the MVP award in baseball because he only played 126 games. (source: Reddit) It would have eliminated 7 guys ever, not including strike years.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,557
I agree with all this, and what would (almost) happen with Giannis this year is just going to be the rare case where it doesn't work. If he had played 2-3 fewer games he wouldn't qualify for the 65 game minimum, but his team would likely still be the 1 seed. It's just the most extreme example.
It's not going to be a rare case.

If the rule applied this year of the 24 guys that played in this seasons all star game, 7 would be ineligible for the all-NBA team. Plus KD, AD, Steph, Kawhi and Harden, who didn't play in the game would also be ineligible.

So, 12 of the 30 or so best players in the league this season would be ineligible to be voted for all-NBA.

It's not going to be a rare case. It's going to be a multiple guys every season that are deserving of all-NBA, but now won't be eligible, case.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,769
These aren't awards for the guys you'd pick in a postseason series, or the guys who have the best per-game rate/advanced stats, or whatever.

These are awards for being the best players in a given season, which consists of 82 games. At a certain point, if you don't play a lot of those games, you can only be so good in that given season, regardless of how good you are in the abstract.

Because of that, talking about the "best" players being ineligible makes little sense. They weren't the best in the season being voted on.

And once again, this isn't theoretical: nearly all the players who would get "snubbed" are on mediocre teams that are mediocre because those players are missing games.

Why is missing games less of a big deal than missing jumpers, in the context of regular season awards?
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,355
It's not going to be a rare case.

If the rule applied this year of the 24 guys that played in this seasons all star game, 7 would be ineligible for the all-NBA team. Plus KD, AD, Steph, Kawhi and Harden, who didn't play in the game would also be ineligible.

So, 12 of the 30 or so best players in the league this season would be ineligible to be voted for all-NBA.

It's not going to be a rare case. It's going to be a multiple guys every season that are deserving of all-NBA, but now won't be eligible, case.
Being the "best" by your metric does not make those players deserving of All-NBA, which is supposed to be a season-specific award. Durant is going to miss over 30 games this year, or over a third of the season. Kawhi will miss about the same. No reason for players that miss so much time to clog the awards and potentially cost one Jaylen Brown a chance of a big payday.

Could always have a parallel award called NBA Lifetime Achievement Award each season that allows the Harden's and Kawhi's to get their accolades; MLB has it with the Golden Glove awards. After all, Zach Lowe made it clear that he would prefer such an award.
 
Last edited:

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,739
Is it?

His last 4 seasons he's played 63 out of 73, 61 out of 72, 67, and probably 65 this year, and he's really not a load management guy.

64 or less seems like a pretty likely number of games for Giannis to play.

He was a rolled ankle away from going under all of the last 4 seasons.
Wanted to clear the bolded part up as Giannis has been the poster boy for load management these past two seasons……ironically, he’s sitting out tonight.


Posters got pillaged for less last week.
:unsure:
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
49,219
A bit more color on ownership stakes from Weiss' piece yesterday:

The Athletic’s Shams Charania reported the mechanism will be through a private equity firm selected by the NBPA, though it’s not clear how the investment program will work. Is it a general fund that buys shares in teams across the league? Is it a blind trust, or can players direct their investments?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
49,219
A blind trust makes a bunch of sense. That was my first thought when I read that this might be part of the agreement.
Its smart. The players *are* the league so giving them the option to build equity/align themselves with owners should only strengthen things going forward.

It will be interesting to see if it impacts how the PA responds to certain types of social issues but on paper it feels constructive here too. On the other hand, maybe it leads to more friction within the PA over some more divisive issues.

Also, is a player who has accumulated a significant amount of equity over a career able to easily convert that to an actual ownership stake if they participate in buying a team? Does this lead to more former players as owners? Lots of questions here.
 
Last edited:

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,915
where I was last at
I haven't read the equity investment proposal, but back of the envelope QnD take, it seems the most practical way re the investment in NBA teams is for teams to initially fund a pool where the teams contribute like annual revenues that grow as NBA revenues (however defined) grows.

The players are entitled to invest some % of their salary in the pool in a like manner. Their skin in the game. The funds get invested however as decided by NBAPA and their investment advisors (subject to risk) and players vest and then can cash out at at some agreed upon future time (1 year, 5 year, 15 years, or never/whatever, after retirement).

I'm not sure what an equity proxy or derivative for NBA equity is when AFAIK all the NBA equity is privately held and only gets marked to market when a team gets sold every 5-to forever years in the future, but until that perfect equity derivative instrument is found, for reference lets call it

C ollateralized
E quity
L inked
T eam
I nvestment
C ertificates.
 
Last edited:

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,557
Wanted to clear the bolded part up as Giannis has been the poster boy for load management these past two seasons……ironically, he’s sitting out tonight.
No. Giannis hasn't been at all. He missed 8 games last year that were a one game absence(including the meaningless last game of the season). Last night was his 7th such absence, in another meaningless game(nothing really ironic of your star not playing a nothing game. No different than Tatum being out last night). Even if they were all load management, which they aren't, he wouldn't be the poster boy.

The guy on that poster would be wearing a Clippers uniform.

Being the "best" by your metric does not make those players deserving of All-NBA, which is supposed to be a season-specific award. Durant is going to miss over 30 games this year, or over a third of the season. Kawhi will miss about the same. No reason for players that miss so much time to clog the awards and potentially cost one Jaylen Brown a chance of a big payday.

Could always have a parallel award called NBA Lifetime Achievement Award each season that allows the Harden's and Kawhi's to get their accolades; MLB has it with the Golden Glove awards. After all, Zach Lowe made it clear that he would prefer such an award.
I agree, I don't think I'd vote for those guys either. And they're probably not going to get voted in this year either, when that rule doesn't apply. Those aren't the guys that are going to get tossed aside by this new rule.

It's not a NBA Lifetime Achievement Award just because you didn't get to this mythical 65 games. I think everyone is just believing this is going to eliminate guys that played 47 games to reward guys that played 78 games.

It's going to be much more likely it's going to eliminate guys that played between 60-64 games, and reward lesser guys that played between 65-70 games. I find that absurd.