NE Patriots: Your AFC East Champs & #2 Seed

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

 
I also live in the DC area and I've been here long enough to remember the excitement surrounding the last Skins Super Bowl win.
 
DC presents a chilling possible future for New England, in that everyone remembers when they were really good and pines for the old days. The old players from the glory years like Riggins and Theismann are (or were) everywhere, on commercials, talk radio, etc., criticizing the new guys. I guess it's not so different than the Pitino years but it really could suck for the Pats in 10 yrs. 

Maybe.

I think well run organizations have a good owner at the helm. Someone who is willing to step back and not meddle in football affairs. Kraft wasn't always that way, but he is now. Daniel Snyder will always be a problem, IMO.

When Bob Kraft is gone? Who knows?

 

[DJnVa]

 
 The old players from the glory years like Riggins and Theismann are (or were) everywhere, on commercials, talk radio, etc., criticizing the new guys. I guess it's not so different than the Pitino years but it really could suck for the Pats in 10 yrs. 

 
Except that the Pats don't really seem to have the kind of players that are good enough now to command that much respect when they retire AND have an interest in hanging around the area.
 
Can you see Brady doing that in 10 years? Gronkowski? I don't know. Can't really picture that.

 

[crystalline]

Yes the difference between Pats and Skins is all about the owner and organization.
If you are moving to the US and choosing a team to root for, choose the Pats, Steelers, Ravens Broncos or Giants. Avoid the Jets Skins and Cowboys (and I would guess the Colts too- Irsay is bound to screw something up eventually). Longterm success is all about running a good organization.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

DC presents a chilling possible future for New England, in that everyone remembers when they were really good and pines for the old days. The old players from the glory years like Riggins and Theismann are (or were) everywhere, on commercials, talk radio, etc., criticizing the new guys. I guess it's not so different than the Pitino years but it really could suck for the Pats in 10 yrs. 

 
I agree with others that unless Kraft sells the franchise, chances are slim that NEP will fall into a Washington/Dallas like situation. 
 
What's encouraging is that Jonathan Kraft is firmly in charge, committed, and will only be 50 come next March.

 

[simplyeric]

Maybe.

I think well run organizations have a good owner at the helm. Someone who is willing to step back and not meddle in football affairs. Kraft wasn't always that way, but he is now. Daniel Snyder will always be a problem, IMO.

When Bob Kraft is gone? Who knows?

But also: when BB is gone?
What if the next coach is mediocre, the next QB is questionable in his second season... Does Kraft start reinserting himself?

 

[Al Zarilla]

Maybe BB will coach to a ripe old age like Marv Levy, or has he stated some kind of limit on himself age-wise?

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

He's said he's not going to be one of those guys doing this at age 75 like Schottenheimer (I think that was on BB: A Football Life), but I don't think he's imposed a particular age.  I've always just assumed he'll retire when Brady does.

 

[DannyHeep]

Maybe BB will coach to a ripe old age like Marv Levy, or has he stated some kind of limit on himself age-wise?

 
As others have said, he won't be here once Brady retires.

 

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

I guess my point is that on his worst day Kraft isn't as bad as a Daniel Snyder on his best. Sure, when Belichick retires I don't expect the same level of success. That would be crazy. But I'm also not thinking that the team will be heading for the next Victor Kiam era. Since Kraft has owned the team he's had just three coaches (one of whom he inherited). That's in 20 years of ownership. When Pete Carroll is the low point of Kraft's tenure (and say what you want about him but Pete had only one losing season), I have to think Kraft is a huge part of the team's success.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I'm not convinced that BB retires when Brady does. The man lives for football, he's divorced, his kids are grown, what else is he going to do at age 64? Plus, he's got a huge ego and part of him must want to show everybody that he could win without Brady.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

I'm not convinced that BB retires when Brady does. The man lives for football, he's divorced, his kids are grown, what else is he going to do at age 64? Plus, he's got a huge ego and part of him must want to show everybody that he could win without Brady.

 
I'm agreeing with MMS here, no doubt in part my personal wish to have him stay after TB retires. 
 
But BB's a lifer, and can't imagine him simply walking away from coaching duties until his health gets in the way. 

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Why would BB need to prove he can win without Brady? He's already done that.

 

[simplyeric]

Why would BB need to prove he can win without Brady? He's already done that.

True.
I would bet more that he'd just find it interesting to re-craft a team post-Brady. He's a scholar, and I think he'd be interested in the intellectual challenge of a new QB.

(or specifically: a different type of QB.... Tebow time!)

(Ok I kid about Tebow himself, but not about the 'new QB role' that's trying to surface.)

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

Why would BB need to prove he can win without Brady? He's already done that.

I'm talking about building another winning team in a post-Brady world, not one year of letting Matt Casell test drive a championship level team. I think BB would see that as an interesting challenge.

 

[quint]

I'm talking about building another winning team in a post-Brady world, not one year of letting Matt Casell test drive a championship level team. I think BB would see that as an interesting challenge.

As he has done multiple times? Your argument is inherently flawed.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I'm agreeing with MMS here, no doubt in part my personal wish to have him stay after TB retires. 
 
But BB's a lifer, and can't imagine him simply walking away from coaching duties until his health gets in the way.

I also don't see him leaving Kraft in that position.

Thanks Bob it's been fun, Toms out, I'm out! Have fun and good luck starting over without your coach or qb.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

As he has done multiple times? Your argument is inherently flawed.

 
I'm not sure Cleveland 1991-1995 really counts.  Which multiple times are you talking about?

 

[Mystic Merlin]

 
I'm not sure Cleveland 1991-1995 really counts.  Which multiple times are you talking about?

What definition of 'really counts' are we operating under here?

The '94 Browns went 11-5, then beat the Pats in the wild card round.

And the '95 Browns, well, we don't even need to recap that saga, do we?

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

As he has done multiple times? Your argument is inherently flawed.

Wtf are you talking about? Cleveland? When he was a DC in New York?

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

One thing we know about BB is that he doesn't have the Butch/Sundance gene. He's a coach and regardless of what we see, I think he keeps the coach/player relationship more distant than we believe. The most similar buddy-buddy situation in his life was the Jets with Parcels.  Parcels was the alpha dog HC, and BB was the beta dog AHC, and Parcels hand delivered him the job and what did he do, he retired on day one.  
 
He's going to do what he's going to do independent of what we think, plan, devise, or what Brady, Kraft or anyone else thinks.  I don't even see a Parcels type move where he sets up his successor contractually.  I do see him grooming a next guy, but I think that hire would be entirely up to ownership with his advice as input when it does happen.
 
He's a football guy through and through, so its going to play out from a purely football standpoint. Coaches don't exactly go to players and say, let me know when you're thinking about calling it quits, cause I'm real close....  Hell players don't even go to coaches and say the same thing.  Brady will retire on his terms, BB will do the same, if its at the end of the same season, I'd be shocked.

 

[quint]

Wtf are you talking about? Cleveland? When he was a DC in New York?

You do understand that his initial building of this New England run was done without the precursor of having a hall of fame QB at the helm, no? But yes, his time in Cleveland and NY pretty much shows he can navigate a fairly successful program without Tom Brady.

How many winning programs does the man have to build?

 

[SpacemanzGerbil]

One thing we know about BB is that he doesn't have the Butch/Sundance gene. He's a coach and regardless of what we see, I think he keeps the coach/player relationship more distant than we believe. The most similar buddy-buddy situation in his life was the Jets with Parcels.  Parcels was the alpha dog HC, and BB was the beta dog AHC, and Parcels hand delivered him the job and what did he do, he retired on day one.  
 
He's going to do what he's going to do independent of what we think, plan, devise, or what Brady, Kraft or anyone else thinks.  I don't even see a Parcels type move where he sets up his successor contractually.  I do see him grooming a next guy, but I think that hire would be entirely up to ownership with his advice as input when it does happen.
 
He's a football guy through and through, so its going to play out from a purely football standpoint. Coaches don't exactly go to players and say, let me know when you're thinking about calling it quits, cause I'm real close....  Hell players don't even go to coaches and say the same thing.  Brady will retire on his terms, BB will do the same, if its at the end of the same season, I'd be shocked.

By, "Delivering the job," I am guessing you mean, "Blocking him from taking another job."

 

[Infield Infidel]

 
I'm agreeing with MMS here, no doubt in part my personal wish to have him stay after TB retires. 
 
But BB's a lifer, and can't imagine him simply walking away from coaching duties until his health gets in the way. 

 
I think he's a football lifer, but not necessarily an NFL lifer. It wouldn't shock me to see him pulling a Bill Walsh and coaching Navy for a few years after he's done with the Pats. 

 

[Super Nomario]

One thing we know about BB is that he doesn't have the Butch/Sundance gene. He's a coach and regardless of what we see, I think he keeps the coach/player relationship more distant than we believe. The most similar buddy-buddy situation in his life was the Jets with Parcels.  Parcels was the alpha dog HC, and BB was the beta dog AHC, and Parcels hand delivered him the job and what did he do, he retired on day one.  
 
He's going to do what he's going to do independent of what we think, plan, devise, or what Brady, Kraft or anyone else thinks.  I don't even see a Parcels type move where he sets up his successor contractually.  I do see him grooming a next guy, but I think that hire would be entirely up to ownership with his advice as input when it does happen.
 
He's a football guy through and through, so its going to play out from a purely football standpoint. Coaches don't exactly go to players and say, let me know when you're thinking about calling it quits, cause I'm real close....  Hell players don't even go to coaches and say the same thing.  Brady will retire on his terms, BB will do the same, if its at the end of the same season, I'd be shocked.

This is exactly what I believe. Someday he's going to realize he's looking forward to the next season a little less or his energy level has dropped slightly and he'll hang it up. I think Belichick takes the job and obligations of being a HC so seriously that he won't do it if he's not 100% committed.
 
I think Kraft will push for him to stay in the organization in some capacity - giving him an office, access to practice / film, etc. - but Belichick remembers his experience with Parcells and will be careful not to step on the next head coach's toes if he does accept such a role. That's obviously going to be easier if the next coach is someone like Josh McDaniels than if it's someone outside the BB tree.
 
Belichick has mentored a lot of young coaches and front office people in Cleveland and Foxboro, and he's interested in learning and sharing with other coaches in other avenues (whether joint practices in the preseason or visiting college coaches to help out). His father was a lifer at Navy, but he also made a contribution to the game of football in a larger sense, writing a book on scouting. Belichick's recently-announced charity endeavor looks like it's in this vein. I don't know if he will write a book, but I think he will share (not necessarily with the public, but with the fraternity of coaches) what he learned in his decades in football.
 
The "greatest coaches" thing ESPN was doing in the offseason made me think about Belichick's legacy. I can't point to a particular system or innovation with him like I can with Bill Walsh or Don Coryell or Dick LeBeau or Buddy Ryan. I think his legacy is both bigger and smaller. From the article I linked above: "The best parts, Kelly said, weren't schematic but rather having Belichick coach the coaches on how to coach." I think this is Belichick's legacy - mentoring coaches, thinking about how to teach players, how to organize practice, what to look for in breaking down film, how to make adjustments, etc. More than anything, I think this is his life's work, and something he'll continue to dedicate himself to even after he's decided he's too old for the daily grind of the NFL.

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

By, "Delivering the job," I am guessing you mean, "Blocking him from taking another job."

No I was referring to the fact that Parcells resigned while BB was the AHC, a position he held for 2 years.  And that even though it was Parcells' plan, it wasn't Bills and he quickly resigned.  My point is that he did what he wanted to do independent of prior plans or input from Parcells.  I'm of the opinion it was proactive on BB, not reactive as a result of Parcells.  It may be both, but as it relates to the possibility of a future joint move with Brady, it doesn't matter much.  I don't see him doing it.
 
Edit: bad spelling

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

With the #2 seed, Patriots set the record for most consecutive byes with 4 straight years. 

 

[DukeSox]

And 8 in 14 years

 

[dbn]

This took a long time, but I'm more than happy to do it when stuck in the office on Christmas week with nothing to do.  I thought it'd be interesting to get a snapshot of the league since the BB-Brady duo came together in 2001.  We're measuring all sorts of things, from how often teams suck all the way to how often they win a championship.  It's amazing to see not only how much the Patriots win, but conversely, how infrequently they don't.  I know those go directly hand-in-hand, but hopefully you catch my drift.  

All numbers are the frequency of occurence over the past 13 seasons, except for playoff results which are over 12 seasons.  If the matter is not decided for this season, the team gets a .5.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Awful seasons (10 or more losses):

10 - Browns, Lions
9 - Raiders
8 -
7.5 - Bills
7 - Cardinals, Jaguars, Reskins
6 - Texans, Vikings
5 - Chiefs, Rams, Buccaneers
4.5- Titans
4 - Bengals, Cowboys, Dolphins, Jets, 49ers
3 - Falcons, Panthers
2.5 - Giants
2 - Ravens, Bears, Packers, Colts, Eagles, Chargers, Seahawks
1 - Broncos, Saints, Steelers
0 - Patriots
 
(snip)

 
I though those data were cool, so I made some charts from them.  Here are the first four that I've done:
 

 
Thanks to Hendu for Kutch for compiling the data, which was the hard part!