NBA In-Season Tournament 2023 Discussion and Gamethread

HomeRunBaker

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Silver is really sackless when it comes to making players accountable. It would be nice to have a league office somewhere between the NBA who view individual players above all and the NFL who ignores off-the-field stuff and persecutes minor "equipment infractions". What is odd about the kid gloves treatment of Draymond is Jordan Poole wasn't wrong, he is a backpack for Curry.
This isn't only Silver's call. He must have the support of a strong Players Union when making these decisions and they are only going to go along with so much as far as penalties go. His hands are kinda tied in many cases. Look at what he did when he did have support....Sterling banned for life the next day. Stuff like that can't happen with players.
 

HomeRunBaker

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(I dont know, would the NBA top four obliterate all the top teams from all the top leagues elsewhere?)
A good NBA team, in midseason shape, properly motivated, would obliterate any other non-NBA team in the world....and I'm being generous.
 

InstaFace

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I think the Champions League comp is off as teams are regularly playing against teams they don't normally play against. And even when they do play against familiar competition, its in the context of a tournament that involved dozens of teams not normally aggregated like that. If this tournament included top-flight teams from other countries' leagues, (Champions League-style)_ *that* would be something interesting. (I dont know, would the NBA top four obliterate all the top teams from all the top leagues elsewhere?)
I don't think that's off the table, but Silver has to establish a rhythm for this event, fix the early-edition bugs with it, get fans used to the idea, and then he can start experimenting again. Just doing this at all - with basically no net-new games or changes to the league calendar writ large - is an achievement. If we get through year 3 and the ticket prices and ratings for tournament games are double that of the adjacent non-tournament games, and some fans are saying stuff like "well at least the year wasn't a total waste, we did win the NBA Cup, that was awesome, I wish I'd gone to Vegas for it", he will have latitude to think more creatively about it - and will have a receptive audience for those ideas among the players, union and ownership.

Including international teams is the obvious play. Or even a handful of college and G-league teams. The league could:

- Go to a 6-round (64-spot) single-elimination tournament, having fewer entrants than that to give a certain amount of NBA teams byes to the R32, still counting any match between NBA teams for the regular season, but also inviting certain outside teams
- Invite other leagues to send an all-star team, which might give an NBA team more of a game and would be a showcase for those other leagues' talent levels and possible NBA draft potential.
- Let G-league and even some college teams in on the early rounds, as a reward (and kinda as a break for the NBA teams)

Alternatively, have another tournament, but in the preseason, with tournament games replacing preseason games as teams advance. The NBA teams can be allowed to not take it all that seriously if they don't want to, but this one could include a wider pool of non-league teams and be more "fun". And teams do this already, playing in China or Europe against national teams or top club teams (Mavs played against Real Madrid, Doncic's old team). So more like the International Champions Cup - a soccer preseason "tournament" which was fun but didn't survive the pandemic - than the Champions League. Some games in such an event could be international, like have a pool or part of the bracket playing in country X, then everyone comes home and either plays the next round(s) or reverts to a regular preseason set of games.
 

benhogan

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A good NBA team, in midseason shape, properly motivated, would obliterate any other non-NBA team in the world....and I'm being generous.
Jan Vesley says bring it on ;)

Sasha Vezenkov is barely a rotation player. He was EuroLeague MVP last year.
BTW not a bad, under-the-radar signing/gamble at $6MM/yr

NCAA teams would get obliterated by 40pts...Kentucky, Duke, etc
 

TomRicardo

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A good NBA team, in midseason shape, properly motivated, would obliterate any other non-NBA team in the world....and I'm being generous.
Any professional team. The Wizards would get absolutely waxed by the French or Canadian National Team (with NBA players not on their team playing for their nation).
 

Pablo's TB Lover

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This isn't only Silver's call. He must have the support of a strong Players Union when making these decisions and they are only going to go along with so much as far as penalties go. His hands are kinda tied in many cases. Look at what he did when he did have support....Sterling banned for life the next day. Stuff like that can't happen with players.
Ok, but at the same time for Silver to go along with the Warriors' soft punishment of a fine and no suspension for Draymond's punch of Poole last season shows he has no interest in even using player safety to assert shit that just can't fly. I suppose we'll get a true read this time around since this cannot be blown off as an "internal team incident", it happened during game action.
 

MyDaughterLovesTomGordon

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I'm not a prosecutor or anything, but I've sat on grand juries enough to know that people get charged with attempted murder when they try to choke people:

https://theathletic.com/5064856/2023/11/15/rudy-gobert-draymond-green-choke-hold-warriors-timberwolves/

“He’s grabbing me, he’s grabbing me, he’s grabbing me,” Gobert recalled. “(But) the choke wasn’t good enough. Yeah, it wasn’t enough for me to really have to (go to sleep). But he tried. He tried really hard, but it wasn’t good enough to where I felt like I was really in danger of falling asleep or something like that.”

Green held Gobert for about nine seconds on Tuesday as assistant coaches, security staff and players tried to pry everyone apart and get control of a situation that erupted as the game between the Timberwolves and Golden State Warriors wasn’t even two minutes old.

“It was a long time, and if he knew how to choke it could have been way worse,” Gobert said. “He tried to. His intention was to really take me out. And I kept my hands up the whole time just to show the officials that I wasn’t trying to escalate the situation.”
Do I really think he should be charged with attempted murder? No. But shrugging off a player trying to choke another player out is fucked up if Rudy's on the level.

Edit: This is bonkers:

“It’s kind of funny because before the game, I was telling myself that Steph is not playing, so I know Draymond is going to try and get ejected,” Gobert said. “Because every time Steph doesn’t play, (Draymond) doesn’t want to play — it’s his guy Steph. He’ll do anything he can to get ejected.”
All of a sudden, I only think Rudy is kind of a douche.
 

Auger34

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Ok, but at the same time for Silver to go along with the Warriors' soft punishment of a fine and no suspension for Draymond's punch of Poole last season shows he has no interest in even using player safety to assert shit that just can't fly. I suppose we'll get a true read this time around since this cannot be blown off as an "internal team incident", it happened during game action.
IMO, he has to get at least 10 games. I think the chances of that are small but a message needs to be sent.

Draymond’s an absolute clown who doesn’t care at all about the rules or players safety. The Warriors when shown that they don’t have the fortitude to properly discipline him. This behavior is going to get worse until someone is actually seriously injured. I mean, we just witnessed the guy try and do a legitimate MMA move on another player that lasted too long to be “in the heat of the moment”.

Also, fuck Steve Kerr. To try and explain that choke on Gobert as if Rudy somehow deserved it is disgusting. The guy gets on his soap box about every little fucking thing that happens to the Warriors but he can’t call that out?
 

Kliq

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Kerr needs a suspension too, if I'm being honest. There is defending your players and then there is that.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Back to the tournament, whether fans like it or not - and apparently Silver is very sensitive to not upsetting aesthetics so the court designs so will be tweaked - its a hit.

Some estimates have viewership up by more than 50%. Add in apparent player buy in and I will be shocked if this isn't a fixture going forward.

As for the games themselves, it feels like they have playoff intensity so I am buying what the players are selling. I will take May/June defense in November. It makes for a much better product.
 

lars10

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I'm not a prosecutor or anything, but I've sat on grand juries enough to know that people get charged with attempted murder when they try to choke people:

https://theathletic.com/5064856/2023/11/15/rudy-gobert-draymond-green-choke-hold-warriors-timberwolves/



Do I really think he should be charged with attempted murder? No. But shrugging off a player trying to choke another player out is fucked up if Rudy's on the level.

Edit: This is bonkers:



All of a sudden, I only think Rudy is kind of a douche.
I don’t get your last sentence. Why only Rudy?
 

Jody Barrettson

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If the NBA wants the tournament to be a "thing" they should suspend Draymond for all GS tournament dates for the season- whether they are eliminated or still playing, Draymond sits those games.
 

Tony C

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Kerr needs a suspension too, if I'm being honest. There is defending your players and then there is that.
This goes back to the comment about the GS broadcasters up thread. Even the Athletic called them out today with this:
3. The Warriors’ broadcast.
Warriors announcers Bob Fitzgerald and Kelenna Azubuike aren’t strangers to selling the team to paying viewers. They’ve been known to … be very pro-Warriors. Hearing them try to downplay Green’s actions to claim Gobert had Klay in a headlock was hilarious. It’s a solid spin attempt by the Warriors.
I admit that I love Kerr, and I get the imperative for a coach to defend his players in public no matter what they might say behind closed doors. But he and the broadcasters really just make themselves look absurd.
 

Kliq

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This goes back to the comment about the GS broadcasters up thread. Even the Athletic called them out today with this:

I admit that I love Kerr, and I get the imperative for a coach to defend his players in public no matter what they might say behind closed doors. But he and the broadcasters really just make themselves look absurd.
Yeah, I don't really mind a coach defending their team/players and trying some gamesmanship through comments in the media. We shouldn't expect them to be a non-partisan source of perspective and information.

My issue with Kerr at this point is that Draymond has an extensive pattern of behavior, and Kerr has clearly done nothing effective to address it. Even just in the last 25 games the Warriors have played, you have Kerr defending Draymond for stomping on Sabonis, defending Draymond for the dirty play on Mitchell, and now Kerr defending Draymond for the choke hold on Gobert. At some point, Kerr and the other members of the Warriors need to be held accountable for encouraging this kind of behavior from a player in their organization.

I suppose the league can't really suspend Kerr for the actions of a player on the court, or for comments made about the action. I do think perhaps a fine would be in order for just blatantly providing misinformation to the media, but I think he probably isn't going to be punished. Silver and the league need to crack down hard on Draymond here, because it really does feel like a matter of time before he seriously injures another player.
 

Tony C

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Yeah, I don't really mind a coach defending their team/players and trying some gamesmanship through comments in the media. We shouldn't expect them to be a non-partisan source of perspective and information.

My issue with Kerr at this point is that Draymond has an extensive pattern of behavior, and Kerr has clearly done nothing effective to address it. Even just in the last 25 games the Warriors have played, you have Kerr defending Draymond for stomping on Sabonis, defending Draymond for the dirty play on Mitchell, and now Kerr defending Draymond for the choke hold on Gobert. At some point, Kerr and the other members of the Warriors need to be held accountable for encouraging this kind of behavior from a player in their organization.

I suppose the league can't really suspend Kerr for the actions of a player on the court, or for comments made about the action. I do think perhaps a fine would be in order for just blatantly providing misinformation to the media, but I think he probably isn't going to be punished. Silver and the league need to crack down hard on Draymond here, because it really does feel like a matter of time before he seriously injures another player.
Agree with all that. But it's the problem when you're in bed with someone who is mentally unbalanced, as Draymond clearly is (someone close to his wife tells me quite convincingly -- YMMV -- that he's quite abusive within his family, too). Dealing with those type of characters is a bit like telling Kyrie the earth isn't flat: will not get through. That said, the way to hold the organization accountable is to hold Draymond accountable. If he's actually suspended for his egregious acts and if during regular games he's held to the same standards as other NBA players, then the organization will pay the price of a big contract for a guy who would often be either unavailable or less effective since he's being called on his BS.
 

Euclis20

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Whatever the reason, quite a few players are taking it more seriously. Both Lebron and Davis mentioned the $500k, which is pretty funny to me. In order to win the $500k you have to play an extra game, and if they win, the $500k basically amounts to just another game check for them (Lebron gets about $580k per game, AD gets about $495k per game). That money is a big deal to a lot of people, but those two are on the short list for whom it shouldn't make a difference.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Whatever the reason, quite a few players are taking it more seriously. Both Lebron and Davis mentioned the $500k, which is pretty funny to me. In order to win the $500k you have to play an extra game, and if they win, the $500k basically amounts to just another game check for them (Lebron gets about $580k per game, AD gets about $495k per game). That money is a big deal to a lot of people, but those two are on the short list for whom it shouldn't make a difference.
The reasoning to me has always been simple and why I've been a huge proponent of this thing.

Basketball players are competitive. You can take any pick-up game and add some spice to it, be it a trash talker or a close game, and it is going to ramp up the energy. We've heard stories of The Dream Team practices for example and it was like this on the playgrounds when I used to play decades ago when the right matchups occurred. Did anyone see the final preseason game between Sacramento and Golden State? The rematch of last year led to this "meaningless" game having playoff intensity to the wire. That's what competition does. That's what this event does....and it's REALLY going to show in the Vegas games.
 

Auger34

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This goes back to the comment about the GS broadcasters up thread. Even the Athletic called them out today with this:

I admit that I love Kerr, and I get the imperative for a coach to defend his players in public no matter what they might say behind closed doors. But he and the broadcasters really just make themselves look absurd.
Kerr seems like a really good guy off of the court. I've always appreciated his stance on social issues and he seems to be a very thoughtful, intelligent person.

However, his whole act with the media when it comes to basketball is beyond tiresome. When something happens to the Warriors, it's an affront to basketball and he has to get on his soapbox and preach about the sanctity of the game...meanwhile he's staunchly defending and excusing the actions of this this psychopath on his team who is running around stomping on people and putting them in chokeholds. It's definitely something he learned from Phil Jackson (who I couldn't fucking stand altogether)
 

HomeRunBaker

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You guys really expect a Head Coach to throw a key member of his team under the bus? C'mon seriously? I mean sure we'd all like to see that with Draymond, especially in the case of last night, but no coach is going to do anything that isn't in the best interest of his team or piss off the NBAPA in the process who will be fighting for his lack of suspension time. That's the PR deal that Kerr agreed to when he became head coach....it's not necessarily how he feels inside. It's all an act that he has to perform to fulfill his duties to the team which is his primary responsibility.
 

luckiestman

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Kerr seems like a really good guy off of the court. I've always appreciated his stance on social issues and he seems to be a very thoughtful, intelligent person.
Wait, so when it costs him nothing and garners him praise he is a “good guy”. I don’t buy into this decision rule for judging a man. One of his players assaulted another of his players, no problem. Assaults opponents, no problem. Other team player plays hard(Marcus Smart), Kerr questions his character. Fuck this guy.

He’s not special. Another self interested bro riding a great player to great coaching status. Remind me what Luke Walton’s record was when Michael Jordan’s backpack couldn’t travel or sit on the bench. NBA couldn’t be bothered to credit Walton with the wins.
 

JCizzle

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You guys really expect a Head Coach to throw a key member of his team under the bus? C'mon seriously? I mean sure we'd all like to see that with Draymond, especially in the case of last night, but no coach is going to do anything that isn't in the best interest of his team or piss off the NBAPA in the process who will be fighting for his lack of suspension time. That's the PR deal that Kerr agreed to when he became head coach....it's not necessarily how he feels inside. It's all an act that he has to perform to fulfill his duties to the team which is his primary responsibility.
I don't think anyone would hold that against him if he didn't act holier than thou when an opponent does something that Draymond does nearly nightly. Kerr broke the code.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don't think anyone would hold that against him if he didn't act holier than thou when an opponent does something that Draymond does nearly nightly. Kerr broke the code.
So what do you want him to do....not support his player for him to receive a longer suspension? Piss off Steph for not supporting his guy and now have to play without him for a longer period of time? Doing this is what is breaking the code of a coach throwing his player under the bus. All NBA players know that their actions are always defended by the Head Coach and the NBAPA. No coach is losing his player or his team over this.....and I've been on the "Kerr is overrated" train for awhile but he's doing this part of the job the only way he can.
 

Kliq

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There is a difference between protecting a player and standing up to the media like a seedy lawyer and giving out a completely fabricated interpretation of events that everyone immediately knows is bullshit.
 

HomeRunBaker

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There is a difference between protecting a player and standing up to the media like a seedy lawyer and giving out a completely fabricated interpretation of events that everyone immediately knows is bullshit.
No there really isn't. He's defending his player as much as he probably hates it.
 

luckiestman

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No there really isn't.
There is. He could say something like his guys are super competitive and things can get heated and look worse under a microscope than they the seem to someone competing in the moment. There are defenses that can be made that are not obvious over the top bullshit.
 

Euclis20

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In what world are you living in that it's expected that a coach would throw his own player under the bus in a public setting? Call him an idiot or a hypocrite (the Smart stuff was a joke), but it's just not reasonable to expect a head coach to publicly bash his own player, even when it's clear as day. Suspend him for speaking his mind, even if his version of events are demonstrably false? Yikes, no.
 

joe dokes

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For some (maybe) perspective:
West said, “I didn’t see the play, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he (Washington) was suspended.”
AP WAS THERE: Washington's punch shatters Tomjanovich's face | AP News


Two weeks into the suspension, the Lakers traded Washington to Boston. No one from the Lakers ever talked to him, he just got a call from his agent and was on his way. Quite a poor move by the Lakers, the way they treated Washington at that time didn't sit well with many in the organization. His coach at the time was Jerry West, the logo himself, and this is what he said about it:
"That was a time that we should've embraced him and showed him we cared. But, there was the door, and I don't think anyone liked it. You have to have people that work within an organization that are willing to lose their job over a decision like that, and I would've lost my job if I were been there. There's no way, they would've had to fire me, I would not have traded him. ... It's probably one of the reasons I didn't want to coach anymore. It was one of the most troubling times in my life, this is probably the first time I've been so candid about it, but as you get older you probably don't give a damn what you say."
The most brutal punch ever thrown in the NBA - Basketball Network - Your daily dose of basketball
 

luckiestman

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I would prefer if NBA players were allowed to have goons and police the games a little bit themselves but the brass really doesn’t want anything approaching that since the Malice at the Palace so if this shit is supposed to be out of the game, exceptions shouldn’t be given to Draymond and his clown coach should get shown the video and see if he wants to retract his statement and if he doesn’t he can get his ass fined too.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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the obvious comp is the FA cup which matters a lot
I don't think that's a great comp either since a big part of the FA Cup is lower league teams competing against the big boys and there's a chance for a Cinderella run through the competition by one of them. Also, some of the FA Cup games I've tuned into have had shockingly low crowds which I found odd.

I do agree that the knockout stages will take things to a whole new level. Ideally, a scrubby squad makes an underdog run to Vegas because that would be fun. (Still not the same as Ipswich Town taking down Arsenal or whatever).
 

HomeRunBaker

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There is. He could say something like his guys are super competitive and things can get heated and look worse under a microscope than they the seem to someone competing in the moment. There are defenses that can be made that are not obvious over the top bullshit.
I agree this would be a better response but aside from those of us scrutinizing and braking down every play the majority of people hearing him say this take him for his word. The suspensions that come from this will be interesting...

Dray: 5-7
Klay/McD: 1-2
Does Gobert get anything for snatching Klay's neck from behind?
 

nattysez

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The chances of Steve Kerr providing anything but a full-throated defense of Draymond in a November presser were below zero. When healthy, Draymond is an incredibly disruptive player on defense and is a critical offensive piece in terms of setting picks and not demanding the ball on a team with a lot of guys who need the ball. He is also incredibly hot-headed and has clashed with Kerr before. Kerr is not going to create a disruption for himself by badmouthing Draymond in front of the press. There is nothing to be gained by doing that.

Worth noting is that Kerr also conveniently missed the fact that Klay started the whole fight, claiming that Klay was just minding his own business running down the floor before he got pulled down by McDaniels.

This is late-stage dynasty stuff -- Kerr is going to keep all the old guys happy because they control the attitude in the locker room.
 

tims4wins

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Worth noting is that Kerr also conveniently missed the fact that Klay started the whole fight, claiming that Klay was just minding his own business running down the floor before he got pulled down by McDaniels.
You said this way more gently than I did. He didn't miss it. He saw it, and then gaslighted the press about it. Just disgusting.
 

JCizzle

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So what do you want him to do....not support his player for him to receive a longer suspension? Piss off Steph for not supporting his guy and now have to play without him for a longer period of time? Doing this is what is breaking the code of a coach throwing his player under the bus. All NBA players know that their actions are always defended by the Head Coach and the NBAPA. No coach is losing his player or his team over this.....and I've been on the "Kerr is overrated" train for awhile but he's doing this part of the job the only way he can.
Defend his guys all he wants. Do that while not also attacking other teams or players when the shoe is on the other foot (I.e. Grizzlies last year "broke the code" rant, Smart diving for the ball, etc.) when you're coaching a team with Draymond on it. Unless the comments weren't widely reported, Chris Finch managed to defend his guys last night without going after Draymond for being a clown.

https://sports.yahoo.com/timberwolves-head-coach-offers-thoughts-140056042.html
 

Deathofthebambino

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Defend his guys all he wants. Do that while not also attacking other teams or players when the shoe is on the other foot (I.e. Grizzlies last year "broke the code" rant, Smart diving for the ball, etc.) when you're coaching a team with Draymond on it. Unless the comments weren't widely reported, Chris Finch managed to defend his guys last night without going after Draymond for being a clown.

https://sports.yahoo.com/timberwolves-head-coach-offers-thoughts-140056042.html
Kerr literally threw McDaniels under the bus for last night, immediately, blaming him for starting the whole thing (when it was clear to anyone with two sets of eye balls that Klay grabbed him first).
 

Auger34

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In what world are you living in that it's expected that a coach would throw his own player under the bus in a public setting? Call him an idiot or a hypocrite (the Smart stuff was a joke), but it's just not reasonable to expect a head coach to publicly bash his own player, even when it's clear as day. Suspend him for speaking his mind, even if his version of events are demonstrably false? Yikes, no.
I didn’t expect (or think he should have) thrown Draymond under the bus.

However, there’s a big difference between “he saw Gobert with his hands around Klays neck and that’s why he rain in” and “I’m not sure what happened but I know our guys are competitive and stick up for each other”.

Basically, I think there’s an artful way to not answer the question than to completely support your player trying to choke other players out. When you combine that with the whole victim act when it comes to his players, it’s pretty nauseating.

Pretty much every other coach manages to stick up for their players without resorting to the tactics Kerr uses.

It reminds me so much of Joe Maddon (in baseball) and Phil Jackson (basketball).
 

Tony C

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I didn’t expect (or think he should have) thrown Draymond under the bus.

However, there’s a big difference between “he saw Gobert with his hands around Klays neck and that’s why he rain in” and “I’m not sure what happened but I know our guys are competitive and stick up for each other”.

Basically, I think there’s an artful way to not answer the question than to completely support your player trying to choke other players out. When you combine that with the whole victim act when it comes to his players, it’s pretty nauseating.

Pretty much every other coach manages to stick up for their players without resorting to the tactics Kerr uses.

It reminds me so much of Joe Maddon (in baseball) and Phil Jackson (basketball).
Well said. The "you expect him to throw his guys under the bus" trope is a red herring. i don't think anyone said that. But Kerr buying into a "Rudy started it..." implying Rudy deserved it thing is where the criticism is.

tl;dr: defend your guys/don't critique them, but also don't gaslight us...we can see the video clip as well as anyone.
 

Euclis20

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We have multiple people in this thread calling for Kerr to be suspended, which leads me to believe people here aren't being rational about this either.

He's a massive hypocrite for how he talks about Draymond compared to players on other teams, but that's the nature of the beast. He goes farther than most to defend his team and players, but some of the comments here just aren't in the realm of reality.
 

Kliq

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Westbrook desperately needs to be on a team that wants to run and needs younger guys on the wing to run with him after missed shots. Putting him on the plodding Clippers and then adding James Harden to the mix is brutal.
 

The Social Chair

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Some estimates have viewership up by more than 50%. Add in apparent player buy in and I will be shocked if this isn't a fixture going forward.
50% over what? Last year? Are you talking about RSNs or the TNT/ESPN games? NBA ratings are pretty low so I'm not sure if a 50% increase is good or not.

This is basically a pilot TV show and they hope it'll get picked up by a streaming company.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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50% over what? Last year? Are you talking about RSNs or the TNT/ESPN games? NBA ratings are pretty low so I'm not sure if a 50% increase is good or not.

This is basically a pilot TV show and they hope it'll get picked up by a streaming company.
Source

The NBA In-Season Tournament topped the sports viewership charts on Friday as 1.93 million viewers tuned in for Lakers-Suns and 1.41 million watched Nets-Celtics. Compared to last year’s equivalent doubleheader, Lakers-Suns viewership increased 73% from Bucks-Timberwolves (1.12M) while Nets-Celtics declined 4% from Bulls-Celtics (1.47M).

Viewership for the In-Season Tournament (1.70M) is now up 55% from the equivalent four windows last year (1.09M), with the caveat that two of those aired opposite the World Series.
You are correct that they aren't getting peak sitcom audiences but by all measures the NBA is getting more eyeballs overall as a result of the tournament.
 

The Social Chair

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Feb 17, 2010
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Forgot peak sitcom, they aren't doing 2015 - 2019 NBA numbers.

The Lakers are more popular than the T-Wolves is my takeaway because the Celtics game was down vs LY.

The World Series note is a pretty big caveat for last year's performance.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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Well said. The "you expect him to throw his guys under the bus" trope is a red herring. i don't think anyone said that. But Kerr buying into a "Rudy started it..." implying Rudy deserved it thing is where the criticism is.

tl;dr: defend your guys/don't critique them, but also don't gaslight us...we can see the video clip as well as anyone.
>50% of fans will never see the video. I'd guess closer to 80% never will and only go by the words that they heard.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Jan 15, 2004
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My god....he's only "battling for position!" :D ;)

My favorite was at the end prior to Gobert....that one is straight out of The Naked Gun movie.