National Celtics discourse

lovegtm

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I love this Tweet because if the situation were reversed with that clownshow winning the championship and the C's taking the IST, I would be disgusted with it. If I had a lot of Laker fans in my network I'd be sharing that with them widely.
It somehow manages to be both slobbering and condescending. Worldwide leader, indeed....
 

reggiecleveland

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Disappointing to me how many analysts are still sticking with the "West is way better" angle when they all picked the MAvs to win easily becasue they had come out of the awesome west, then they were bitchslapped in the finals.
 

lovegtm

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Disappointing to me how many analysts are still sticking with the "West is way better" angle when they all picked the MAvs to win easily becasue they had come out of the awesome west, then they were bitchslapped in the finals.
If Embiid is healthy (I know, I know) and the Sixers add PG or Butler, NYK can upgrade on the edges, Indy gets organic improvement, Cleveland rebalances its roster, Milwaukee gets one more crack with Dame/Giannis.....the East could have some really, really good teams.

Honestly, I think Indy could have beaten Dallas even this year. That was a tougher series for Boston because the Pacers are a better team.
 

Jimbodandy

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If Embiid is healthy (I know, I know) and the Sixers add PG or Butler, NYK can upgrade on the edges, Indy gets organic improvement, Cleveland rebalances its roster, Milwaukee gets one more crack with Dame/Giannis.....the East could have some really, really good teams.

Honestly, I think Indy could have beaten Dallas even this year. That was a tougher series for Boston because the Pacers are a better team.
I rewatched some the Indy series tonight. I think that Indy is a better team, perhaps even without Haliburton. Would be some high scoring games between them and Dallas for sure.
 
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m0ckduck

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Nice read
The Celtics’ rivals handed them a championship one bad trade at a time

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2024/6/18/24181142/boston-celtics-championship-roster-construction-trades-blame
Very good. But one question:

All the shenanigans which indirectly helped Boston build its Larry Bird-backed champs in the 1980s — swapping entire teams with the Buffalo Braves, drafting Bird while he still plays college basketball, lopsided deals with Detroit and Golden State, seriously, what are the Buffalo Braves — barely compare to what the Brooklyn Nets handed the Boston Celtics in 2013.
What was the lopsided deal with Detroit during the Bird era? Golden State obviously was The Joe Barely Cares trade. But I don't remember a single trade with Detroit. They signed ML Carr away from the Pistons but this was (a) not a trade, (b) not exactly foundational.
 

J.T. Pinch

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Dick Vitale then running the Pistons, took Bob McAdoo (McAdon't as he was commonly referred to) off the Celts hands for a #1 pick which turned out to be JBC.
 

Ed Hillel

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Um…the Celtics didn’t have “the guy”. They had two of them. Wright is making it seem like this was the Rip Hamilton Pistons.
He and Broussard have literally spent 1-2 months comparing them to this very team. Yesterday, they had graphics out and everything.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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NickEsasky

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Meh. fans get way too chippy and feel they can say just about anything to these players. Can't blame any player from clapping back sometimes
It was a tongue in cheek shot at Breen being a sanctimonious clown not at what Luka said.
 

jezza1918

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He and Broussard have literally spent 1-2 months comparing them to this very team. Yesterday, they had graphics out and everything.
I think if you just go on nba award type stuff it's probably a closer comparison than we think - Wallace finished 7th in MVP voting that year/2nd team all nba/2nd in DefPOY voting; while Billups and Hamilton didnt make all NBA teams they were in the Others Receiving Votes category.
That said - and I get that today's odds may be different than actual preseason odds - but Vegas thinks a lot higher of this celtics team (+280 to repeat) than they did of that Pistons team (+900). Worth noting that '05 pistons came EXTREMELY close to repeating...they were one Big Shot Bob 3 away from probably going back to back.
 

Auger34

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It was a tongue in cheek shot at Breen being a sanctimonious clown not at what Luka said.
To add to this, and I haven’t seen it elsewhere, Breen actually has admitted he never heard what was said. He was just reacting to Kyries insulted reaction and therefore knew it was something really unsavory that was said.

Fuck him
 

Justthetippett

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To add to this, and I haven’t seen it elsewhere, Breen actually has admitted he never heard what was said. He was just reacting to Kyries insulted reaction and therefore knew it was something really unsavory that was said.

Fuck him
Breen was insufferable in G5 overall. Couldn't help referencing G4 a dozen times. This Kyrie thing. Openly rooting for Luka to make it a game. Every time I start to find him to not be irritating, he does something else that reminds me.
 

reggiecleveland

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Breen was insufferable in G5 overall. Couldn't help referencing G4 a dozen times. This Kyrie thing. Openly rooting for Luka to make it a game. Every time I start to find him to not be irritating, he does something else that reminds me.
In my first days on SOSH I said Boston fans and Canadians have a lot in common. The media has to be forced to admit we exisat and even when acknowledged it is usually with lame stereotypes, and they can't wait to move on. Jimmy Kimmel focused on the brawl between Celtics fans at TD place as "most Boston thing ever" and Casas' abusive father when he discussed the Celts winning. This from a guy who was featured in the pregame montage for his network. You will never get the deserved respect.
 

m0ckduck

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He and Broussard have literally spent 1-2 months comparing them to this very team. Yesterday, they had graphics out and everything.
This has become a podcast standard (comparing '24 Celtics to '04 Pistons), with each person acting like they're the first to alight on it

In general, I don't get why the 2004 Pistons became the go-to comparison. It was cute for moment, but the 2014 Spurs are a closer comp in all ways. Two established stars in the top 12 (Parker and Duncan tied for 12th in MVP voting) but nobody at the tippy-top, killer supporting players and team balance (6th in O-rating, 3rd in D). The 04 Pistons were 18th in O-rating for god's sake— how does that resemble the 2024 Celtics?
 

Shaky Walton

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Breen was insufferable in G5 overall. Couldn't help referencing G4 a dozen times. This Kyrie thing. Openly rooting for Luka to make it a game. Every time I start to find him to not be irritating, he does something else that reminds me.
One of the nicer parts of being at the Garden Monday night was being able to watch the game without Breen and Doris making my ears bleed.

In addition to their penchant for focusing on aspects of the game and storylines that are either contrived or irrelevant, they almost never offer an insight that is novel or not something that seasoned viewers already know. Literally the only thing I ever get out of them is injury news.
 

PedroKsBambino

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To add to this, and I haven’t seen it elsewhere, Breen actually has admitted he never heard what was said. He was just reacting to Kyries insulted reaction and therefore knew it was something really unsavory that was said.

Fuck him
I like Breen generally, but his take and reaction on that play was atrocious if he didn't hear what was said.

Kyrie is a clown who has made discrimatory and dangerously uninformed comments on a range of subjects. He is a questionable personality with, at best, unclear ability to separate reality from his feelings. And he has both spoken about and shown through actions he struggles to manage his emotions and reactions to the dislike of him he feels in Boston.

Up against all of that indisputable context it is simply inappropriate for a broadcaster or journalist to assume Kyrie's reaction to anything from a Boston crowd is reasonable. the journalstically appropriate response is something more like "Kyrie seems to be taking exception to something that he heard or was said, but I didn't hear the comment---did anyone else?"

To be clear, I am 100% sure Boston fans are capable of saying inappropriate things to Kyrie. But he is also 100% capable of making things up and/or overreacting too. And Breen should have taken no position on which of those happened without data. His job is not to ballwash a proven-jackass superstar for a national audience and he should know better than to do so. If it were most players in the NBA, it would be fair to at least ask "why are they reacting so strongly, what was said?" But I beleive that Kyrie not only has not earned that deference---he's actually shown that he is a supremely unreliable narrator, and Breen knows that to be true.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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This has become a podcast standard (comparing '24 Celtics to '04 Pistons), with each person acting like they're the first to alight on it

In general, I don't get why the 2004 Pistons became the go-to comparison. It was cute for moment, but the 2014 Spurs are a closer comp in all ways. Two established stars in the top 12 (Parker and Duncan tied for 12th in MVP voting) but nobody at the tippy-top, killer supporting players and team balance (6th in O-rating, 3rd in D). The 04 Pistons were 18th in O-rating for god's sake— how does that resemble the 2024 Celtics?
Yeah, the 2004 Pistons is a comparison that is largely self-serving. Its a way to acknowledge the Celtics were good while maintaining their long stated position that Tatum and Brown weren't "alpha" enough to win a title in the traditional way. And implicitly it affirms all of their fervent prayers that the Celtics won't win another title, like that Pistons team.
 

jezza1918

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Yeah, the 2004 Pistons is a comparison that is largely self-serving. Its a way to acknowledge the Celtics were good while maintaining their long stated position that Tatum and Brown weren't "alpha" enough to win a title in the traditional way. And implicitly it affirms all of their fervent prayers that the Celtics won't win another title, like that Pistons team.
Want to +1 this...as it seems like I was sticking up for the take in my post a couple of hours ago, before coffee kicked in. I think if you squint hard enough you can back end your way into the comparison on couple of individual accolade levels...but the self serving aspect is the primary thing at play here. And @m0ckduck is pretty spot on as well.
 

Montana Fan

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This has become a podcast standard (comparing '24 Celtics to '04 Pistons), with each person acting like they're the first to alight on it

In general, I don't get why the 2004 Pistons became the go-to comparison. It was cute for moment, but the 2014 Spurs are a closer comp in all ways. Two established stars in the top 12 (Parker and Duncan tied for 12th in MVP voting) but nobody at the tippy-top, killer supporting players and team balance (6th in O-rating, 3rd in D). The 04 Pistons were 18th in O-rating for god's sake— how does that resemble the 2024 Celtics?
It’s funny that this has become a go-to. During the Lowe/Windhorst gabfest on the court, after the game Monday night, the one that Cedric Maxwell popped into. Windhorst f’n crushed the idea that the Pistons are in anyway comparable to the 2024 Celtics. Something along the lines of the Celtics are an historically great team and the Pistons were the worst champs of the last 30 years.
 

Auger34

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Breen was insufferable in G5 overall. Couldn't help referencing G4 a dozen times. This Kyrie thing. Openly rooting for Luka to make it a game. Every time I start to find him to not be irritating, he does something else that reminds me.
To say that, in that situation, with the player involved and in the location is really fucking unprofessional by Breen. He knows what a hornet's nest that is and knows where people's minds will likely go. To say "shame on you!" and act like it's some awful thing just based off of someone's reaction is a joke.
"Kyrie looks very upset, I couldn't hear what was said but he certainly didn't appreciate it" is fine. Getting on your soapbox when you have no clue what happened is a joke
 

Auger34

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I like Breen generally, but his take and reaction on that play was atrocious if he didn't hear what was said.

Kyrie is a clown who has made discrimatory and dangerously uninformed comments on a range of subjects. He is a questionable personality with, at best, unclear ability to separate reality from his feelings. And he has both spoken about and shown through actions he struggles to manage his emotions and reactions to the dislike of him he feels in Boston.

Up against all of that indisputable context it is simply inappropriate for a broadcaster or journalist to assume Kyrie's reaction to anything from a Boston crowd is reasonable. the journalstically appropriate response is something more like "Kyrie seems to be taking exception to something that he heard or was said, but I didn't hear the comment---did anyone else?"

To be clear, I am 100% sure Boston fans are capable of saying inappropriate things to Kyrie. But he is also 100% capable of making things up and/or overreacting too. And Breen should have taken no position on which of those happened without data. His job is not to ballwash a proven-jackass superstar for a national audience and he should know better than to do so. If it were most players in the NBA, it would be fair to at least ask "why are they reacting so strongly, what was said?" But I beleive that Kyrie not only has not earned that deference---he's actually shown that he is a supremely unreliable narrator, and Breen knows that to be true.
What bothers me most is that most of the viewers will automatically go to "the fan said something racist". I mean, in our own game thread full of Boston fans, some people went there.

Breen has to know that, especially since what he said really wasn't "heat of the moment", it was after Kyrie had been laying on the ground for a bit.

To come out that strongly, when you have no idea what was said, is bullshit
 

Auger34

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It’s funny that this has become a go-to. During the Lowe/Windhorst gabfest on the court, after the game Monday night, the one that Cedric Maxwell popped into. Windhorst f’n crushed the idea that the Pistons are in anyway comparable to the 2024 Celtics. Something along the lines of the Celtics are an historically great team and the Pistons were the worst champs of the last 30 years.
So Lowe made this comparison and then Windhorst shat on it?

I definitely didn't expect to be defending Windhorst and disparaging Lowe this finals but here we are
 

The Social Chair

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So Lowe made this comparison and then Windhorst shat on it?

I definitely didn't expect to be defending Windhorst and disparaging Lowe this finals but here we are
Lowe brought up the easy path and I thought Windhorst was going to attack him. Windhorst basically said injuries happen every year and winning a title is really hard. A great team is a great team.

It's a great podcast. Cedric Maxwell comes on yelling about James Worthy, Mike Zarren and his dad come on, Jackie Mac.
 

Kliq

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Lowe brought up the easy path and I thought Windhorst was going to attack him. Windhorst basically said injuries happen every year and winning a title is really hard. A great team is a great team.

It's a great podcast. Cedric Maxwell comes on yelling about James Worthy, Mike Zarren and his dad come on, Jackie Mac.
Maxwell coming in to cut a pro wrestling promo against James Worthy was an all-time moment.

I thought both Windy and Lowe were very pro "The Celtics are awesome, anyone who thinks they had an easy path is dumb" over the course of the pod.
 

jezza1918

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Re: the 2004 Pistons, moreover, did they have a 3 time consecutive first team All NBA player?
No. This is what I meant above with the individual "if you squint" type stuff. The three seasons that culminated in a title Ben Wallace went 3rd/2nd/2nd team all nba...but also 1st/1st/2nd in def POY. And 10/8/7 in MVP voting (Tatum went 6/4/6).
 

Al Zarilla

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Need to have Red sitting there with a cigar - like Al - the old guy.
Definitely Red. In the old days, smoking was allowed in the Garden. When Red felt the game was in hand, he’d light one up but he’d actually move up a few rows above the team, to not subject them to his smoke. I don’t know about fans around him. What a guy!
 

NomarsFool

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I’d put my money on “Kyrie, you suck!” Not something I would say, and honestly, I’d rather we retire it. But, I wouldn’t call that “a disgrace”. Reading between the lines in the article, it seems more that Breen was objecting to harassing Kyrie while he’s on the ground and struggling to get up, more than any actual appropriateness or crossing the line with the heckling. Maybe the fan was clever enough in the moment to come up with something “I’ve fallen, and I Kyrie get up!” but my money’s on just the typical serenade.
 

benhogan

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2003-04 Pistons
54-28 regular season
16-7 in the playoffs

+6.6 Net Rtg (2nd)
102 Off Rtg(18th)
95.4 Def Rtg (2nd)


2023-24 Celtics
64-18 regular season
16-3 in playoffs

+11.6 Net Rtg (1st)
123.2 Off Rtg (1st)
111.6 Def Rtg (3rd)
 

Mooch

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I’d put my money on “Kyrie, you suck!” Not something I would say, and honestly, I’d rather we retire it. But, I wouldn’t call that “a disgrace”. Reading between the lines in the article, it seems more that Breen was objecting to harassing Kyrie while he’s on the ground and struggling to get up, more than any actual appropriateness or crossing the line with the heckling. Maybe the fan was clever enough in the moment to come up with something “I’ve fallen, and I Kyrie get up!” but my money’s on just the typical serenade.
That’s exactly what I thought happened. And to both of them, I say: Fuck all the way off and be a little bit tougher. This is the NBA, not little league.
 

RorschachsMask

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2003-04 Pistons
54-28 regular season
16-7 in the playoffs

+6.6 Net Rtg (2nd)
102 Off Rtg(18th)
95.4 Def Rtg (2nd)


2023-24 Celtics
64-18 regular season
16-3 in playoffs

+11.6 Net Rtg (1st)
123.2 Off Rtg (1st)
111.6 Def Rtg (3rd)
I hate that comparison more than I hate listening to the national discourse.