National Celtics discourse

HomeRunBaker

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Luka is gonna mostly get a pass if they lose this series, even if it ends in a sweep, but that's gonna be it for him. He's been 1st team all-nba for half a decade, he's no longer super young, and he's made 2 deep playoff runs, including a finals trip. People love to tear that sort of guy down, until he wins a title. Starting next year, he's gonna get hit every year he doesn't win.
I’m not sure he’ll get that same treatment. The media loves Luka bc off the court he’s chill, funny as hell, and a prankster. He’s a guy they can hang out with and feel like he’s one of them. They will look at other areas like the role players, injuries, blah blah blah….but the media discriminates based on their personal feelings and relationships.
 

DJnVa

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Some dude on with Cowherd (I think) said the proof that JT isn’t that great is that they went out and got Jrue and Porzingis.
 

lovegtm

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Some dude on with Cowherd (I think) said the proof that JT isn’t that great is that they went out and got Jrue and Porzingis.
Yes, just like when Pat Riley famously showed his distrust in Dwyane Wade, and when Bob Myers decided Steph and Klay were scrubs.

The Nuggets threw in the towel on Jokic in 2021 when they acquired Gordon and then KCP, and the Bucks in 2020 decided Giannis was a loser and paid a ton to get Jrue.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yes, just like when Pat Riley famously showed his distrust in Dwyane Wade, and when Bob Myers decided Steph and Klay were scrubs.

The Nuggets threw in the towel on Jokic in 2021 when they acquired Gordon and then KCP, and the Bucks in 2020 decided Giannis was a loser and paid a ton to get Jrue.
God Bird and McHale and Parrish must have sucked for Red to get DJ and Walton.
 

the moops

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Actual good national media (podcasts) Lowe Post, Dunkers Spot, Ringer NBA, Old Man and the Three, etc - are absolutely in love with what Boston has done in these past two games
 

lovegtm

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Actual good national media (podcasts) Lowe Post, Dunkers Spot, Ringer NBA, Old Man and the Three, etc - are absolutely in love with what Boston has done in these past two games
Agree. I would say that, at this point, everyone in the know understands better what Boston is trying to do on both ends, probably as a result of that being the sole focus now.

You even have a lot of them saying Tatum has been straight-up good, even with the bad shooting.

The only thing remaining is this weird quasi-religious incantation that some still feel obligated to recite ("well, of course, Luka is still the best player in the series"), even as everyone can watch him getting flambéed for 48 minutes straight on the defensive end, and being crappy on offense as the 2nd half goes on and conditioning issues kick in.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Actual good national media (podcasts) Lowe Post, Dunkers Spot, Ringer NBA, Old Man and the Three, etc - are absolutely in love with what Boston has done in these past two games
Steve Jones Jr. was on both Lowe Post and Dunkers Spot and he mentioned that he was on with Reddick too - so is that three of the four you mentioned?

I just started Lowe's podcast but some interesting stats that he cited.

(1) JT had 29 drives in G2. Most ever in a game in his career. JB had 3rd most ever in his career (I think 23 but my memory might be failing me). Cs with 66 drives most ever in this season.

(2) On BOS drives, immediate points per possession was something .75 - includes shots and shots of first pass. But points per entire possession for drives is 1.02 - which means that they are doing the drive and multiple pass thing.

(3) DAL is 6-28 on catch and shoot 3Ps. 6 in two games. BOS is 20-60. That's a math problem that's really hard to solve.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The only thing remaining is this weird quasi-religious incantation that some still feel obligated to recite ("well, of course, Luka is still the best player in the series"), even as everyone can watch him getting flambéed for 48 minutes straight on the defensive end, and being crappy on offense as the 2nd half goes on and conditioning issues kick in.
No one talks about Luka's conditioning. I guess that's a bridge too far if they ever want to get an interview from him again. They do talk about how injured he is, and after reciting all of the stats I posted above, Lowe starts talking about how there are like "5 possessions a game where Luka moves his feet and stonewalls his opponent." Of course Lowe has to give Luka props for sometimes playing defense, even though he's really been chicken BBQ the entire series.
 

lovegtm

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No one talks about Luka's conditioning. I guess that's a bridge too far if they ever want to get an interview from him again. They do talk about how injured he is, and after reciting all of the stats I posted above, Lowe starts talking about how there are like "5 possessions a game where Luka moves his feet and stonewalls his opponent." Of course Lowe has to give Luka props for sometimes playing defense, even though he's really been chicken BBQ the entire series.
Yeah, I always forget the media access factor. Maybe people really are that scared of pissing Luka off?

Regardless, he's shown that, until he can get on a treadmill, he needs to be firmly out of the top-5 conversation. It's an insult to guys like Jokic who actually got their conditioning up and became positives on the defensive end, not to mention the rest of the top-10, which is basically all 2-way players.
 

reggiecleveland

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My son's college team has a guy that is was very ambitious and on the rise working with pro teams. When he had kids he chose top stay in Canada and take a more stable job. He tells a story that a trainer met with Luka maybe 3 years ago with photoshopped images, with calculations of high he would jump etc, if he just ate slightly better then a comparison to Lebron/Jordan if he trained really hard. Guy spent weeks preparing his presentation. He even had little spring loaded action figures that would jump significantly higher with minor weight reduction. The story is he got about five minutes into the presentation and Luka politely asked him to leave.
 

Van Everyman

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My son's college team has a guy that is was very ambitious and on the rise working with pro teams. When he had kids he chose top stay in Canada and take a more stable job. He tells a story that a trainer met with Luka maybe 3 years ago with photoshopped images, with calculations of high he would jump etc, if he just ate slightly better then a comparison to Lebron/Jordan if he trained really hard. Guy spent weeks preparing his presentation. He even had little spring loaded action figures that would jump significantly higher with minor weight reduction. The story is he got about five minutes into the presentation and Luka politely asked him to leave.
That’s funny because
Simmons said that someone in his section told Luka he was fat and Luka told him he should leave.
 

ManicCompression

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Actual good national media (podcasts) Lowe Post, Dunkers Spot, Ringer NBA, Old Man and the Three, etc - are absolutely in love with what Boston has done in these past two games
Nate Duncan - who’s normally pretty low on Tatum - had this to say, which I found to be interesting and I hadn’t seen elsewhere (paraphrasing):
- Tatum is normally an SF and he’s been playing C all series
- that is a MASSIVE sacrifice on behalf of the team
- when you think about all the guys who refuse to play big - Lebron doesn’t want to be a PF despite being huge, Davis never wanted to be a center, etc - it underlines the physical toll that the position takes on you
- he’s rebounding the ball well despite going up a position
- it’s no wonder that he’s not shooting the ball well considering what his responsibility is on D

I hadn’t really thought about the other stars who wouldn’t do this for their team and I think it speaks to his maturity as a player - hope more of the media notices
 

leetinsley38

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Nate Duncan - who’s normally pretty low on Tatum - had this to say, which I found to be interesting and I hadn’t seen elsewhere (paraphrasing):
- Tatum is normally an SF and he’s been playing C all series
- that is a MASSIVE sacrifice on behalf of the team
- when you think about all the guys who refuse to play big - Lebron doesn’t want to be a PF despite being huge, Davis never wanted to be a center, etc - it underlines the physical toll that the position takes on you
- he’s rebounding the ball well despite going up a position
- it’s no wonder that he’s not shooting the ball well considering what his responsibility is on D

I hadn’t really thought about the other stars who wouldn’t do this for their team and I think it speaks to his maturity as a player - hope more of the media notices
If Tatum plays center with KP out with an injury, maybe the dumb lazy media comparison isn’t to Kobe but a different Laker that did the same thing in the Finals.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Some dude on with Cowherd (I think) said the proof that JT isn’t that great is that they went out and got Jrue and Porzingis.
I’ve heard the same on these silly Facebook threads about Mazzulla. Brad knows how bad he is that’s why he has to go out and get Cassell and Lee. It’s why we are trying to add Van Gundy to the bench staff next year too. Joe so bad.
Yeah, I always forget the media access factor. Maybe people really are that scared of pissing Luka off?
I spoke of this the other day. It isn’t a fear it’s that everyone genuinely loves the guy. He’s their funny, joke cracking, have a beer with, prankster neighbor who everyone wants to hang out with.
 

rodderick

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Yeah, I always forget the media access factor. Maybe people really are that scared of pissing Luka off?

Regardless, he's shown that, until he can get on a treadmill, he needs to be firmly out of the top-5 conversation. It's an insult to guys like Jokic who actually got their conditioning up and became positives on the defensive end, not to mention the rest of the top-10, which is basically all 2-way players.
I think Luka is firmly a top 5 player even with his defense, he's that much of a difference maker on the ball. He's also a huge prick on the court and he now has a good enough team around him that expectations going forward will become higher than posting daily James Harden box scores. I feel like the "everybody loves Luka!" era might be nearing its end.
 

Leon Trotsky

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I’ve heard the same on these silly Facebook threads about Mazzulla. Brad knows how bad he is that’s why he has to go out and get Cassell and Lee. It’s why we are trying to add Van Gundy to the bench staff next year too. Joe so bad.

I spoke of this the other day. It isn’t a fear it’s that everyone genuinely loves the guy. He’s their funny, joke cracking, have a beer with, prankster neighbor who everyone wants to hang out with.
I watched a little of his presser on NBA TV last night and two guys asked him long questions in Spanish, and he answered in Spanish. It was actually pretty interesting and I was thinking just another small way everyone comes away impressed with him.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I watched a little of his presser on NBA TV last night and two guys asked him long questions in Spanish, and he answered in Spanish. It was actually pretty interesting and I was thinking just another small way everyone comes away impressed with him.
Did you see the 5 minute back and forth he had the game prior with the Brazilian reporter with 95% of it being about their star footballer Neymar?
 

Al Zarilla

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If Tatum plays center with KP out with an injury, maybe the dumb lazy media comparison isn’t to Kobe but a different Laker that did the same thing in the Finals.
But does Tatum have the baby hooks with either hand in his shooting arsenal? I haven’t seen footage of Magic’s 42 point game against the Sixers in years, if at all, but I imagine he used those as well as all of his other gone ram abilities, including the rebounding and the heavenly passing. Not that Tatum doesn’t have all of the excellent offensive abilities. He does.
 

Leon Trotsky

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Did you see the 5 minute back and forth he had the game prior with the Brazilian reporter with 95% of it being about their star footballer Neymar?
No, I didn't see that, but will look it up. I mean, the Luka ballwashing is annoying, but he is clearly a star and you are right, the media gives him a ton of attention because he is undoubtedly elite (at offense) and has a lot of character.
 

tims4wins

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No, I didn't see that, but will look it up. I mean, the Luka ballwashing is annoying, but he is clearly a star and you are right, the media gives him a ton of attention because he is undoubtedly elite (at offense) and has a lot of character.
As others have said, the Luka’s antics are cute crowd may decrease significantly next year if he’s in the same shape and a turnstile on D again in the playoffs. That said, as I’ve written multiple times, I fully expect him to win the MVP next year. But the tide may turn come the playoffs.
 

Auger34

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I don't want to completely derail this thread, however....

I'm not a huge soccer fan but isn't Neymar generally pretty hated by the vast majority of fans? Like he whines and cries all of the time, which is really saying something when you stand out for whining and crying amongst soccer players
 

TomRicardo

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But does Tatum have the baby hooks with either hand in his shooting arsenal? I haven’t seen footage of Magic’s 42 point game against the Sixers in years, if at all, but I imagine he used those as well as all of his other gone ram abilities, including the rebounding and the heavenly passing. Not that Tatum doesn’t have all of the excellent offensive abilities. He does.
Tatum has played center for most of the non Kornet playoff minutes. The Celtics play five out so Tatum doesn't need to have play the post on offense. He actually has been playing point center against the Mavs.
 

slamminsammya

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I don't want to completely derail this thread, however....

I'm not a huge soccer fan but isn't Neymar generally pretty hated by the vast majority of fans? Like he whines and cries all of the time, which is really saying something when you stand out for whining and crying amongst soccer players
My german friend says Luka reminds him most of Neymar with the complaining.
 

rodderick

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It's always important to remember that, regardless of what he does on the court, he is a clear tier above everyone except Jokic.
It's hilarious to see Mavs fans talking about how Luka was "funneling the Celtics wings towards the center" when their center isn't even in the paint for half of those and Luka also never switches after said "funneling". He stays there stuck in the mud waiting for an uncontested rebound to fall in his lap.
 

CapeCodYaz

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Nate Duncan - who’s normally pretty low on Tatum - had this to say, which I found to be interesting and I hadn’t seen elsewhere (paraphrasing):
- Tatum is normally an SF and he’s been playing C all series
- that is a MASSIVE sacrifice on behalf of the team
- when you think about all the guys who refuse to play big - Lebron doesn’t want to be a PF despite being huge, Davis never wanted to be a center, etc - it underlines the physical toll that the position takes on you
- he’s rebounding the ball well despite going up a position
- it’s no wonder that he’s not shooting the ball well considering what his responsibility is on D

I hadn’t really thought about the other stars who wouldn’t do this for their team and I think it speaks to his maturity as a player - hope more of the media notices
I like the versatility of JT on D but he doesn't need to play center when we have Al, Kornet, Tilman and even Quetta---
 

reggiecleveland

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I think Luka is firmly a top 5 player even with his defense, he's that much of a difference maker on the ball. He's also a huge prick on the court and he now has a good enough team around him that expectations going forward will become higher than posting daily James Harden box scores. I feel like the "everybody loves Luka!" era might be nearing its end.
I will just pick this of several posts, but the Celtics probably lost one of their best players for the rest of the series. It is very premature to discuss how Luka losing will affect his legacy.
 

lovegtm

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It's hilarious to see Mavs fans talking about how Luka was "funneling the Celtics wings towards the center" when their center isn't even in the paint for half of those and Luka also never switches after said "funneling". He stays there stuck in the mud waiting for an uncontested rebound to fall in his lap.
....also he fails to funnel on most occasions. Quick crossover and JB/Tatum are beating him away from the help routinely.
 

Dave Stapleton

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A little bit of a pile on the Luka train but he is also one to make sure his injuries are known. Don’t love Rusillo all the time but he did have a funny line that Luka “doesn’t just wear his injuries on his sleeve but on a stove pot hat”.
 

Auger34

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A little bit of a pile on the Luka train but he is also one to make sure his injuries are known. Don’t love Rusillo all the time but he did have a funny line that Luka “doesn’t just wear his injuries on his sleeve but on a stove pot hat”.
10000%. He's definitely got the Roethlisberger thing going.

He's hurt and he's tough for gutting this out...but he's going to make damn sure that everyone knows just how hurt he is. I expect him to come out to warm ups tonight in a sumo suit filled with ice packs
 

Auger34

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What's especially interesting, to me at least, about the Luka defense discourse is that all of his faults are completely self-inflicted. It's all effort and conditioning. It's kind of remarkable that he gets such a pass from the media (IE Lowe saying "5 times down the floor, he will stonewall his opponent, thats good!!") when he has the physical and mental capability to be a good defender if he really wanted to
 

lovegtm

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What's especially interesting, to me at least, about the Luka defense discourse is that all of his faults are completely self-inflicted. It's all effort and conditioning. It's kind of remarkable that he gets such a pass from the media (IE Lowe saying "5 times down the floor, he will stonewall his opponent, thats good!!") when he has the physical and mental capability to be a good defender if he really wanted to
"Men will literally spend hours inventing excuses for Luka Doncic's defense rather than go to therapy"
 

bakahump

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Basically this is a must win for the Celts or this series may very well be over.
 

rodderick

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I will just pick this of several posts, but the Celtics probably lost one of their best players for the rest of the series. It is very premature to discuss how Luka losing will affect his legacy.
Would be great if you could point out where I discussed that! As we've seen with LeBron James, one title (or two, or three, or four) buys you months of grace in this media/fan environment.