Mookie details Boston exit

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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They have become very boom or bust. Since 2012 they've won 2 WS and finished in last place 5 times.

That's a strange dichotomy.
It is strange, but since 2012 (since you decided to start randomly with a year they finished in last):

2012: 69 wins, 5th place
2013: 97 wins, 1st place, wins World Series
2014: 71 wins, 5th place
2015: 78 wins, 5th place
2016: 93 wins, 1st place, lose ALDS
2017: 93 wins, 1st place, lose ALDS
2018: 108 wins, 1st place, wins World Series
2019: 84 wins, 3rd place
2020: 24 wins, 5th place (Covid year - shouldn't even count for anything)
2021: 92 wins, 2nd place, lose ALCS
2022: 69 wins presently, 5th place

So in those 11 seasons (really 10 because the Covid year shouldn't count) that's:

- 2 WS titles
- 4 1st place finishes
- 1 2nd place finish
- 1 3rd place finish
- 5 5th place finishes
- 5 playoff appearances
- 3 ALCS appearances

It looks better if you "start" with 2013 and take out the absurdity that was the 2020 season. In 9 seasons then, it's:

- 2 WS titles
- 4 1st place finishes
- 1 2nd place finish
- 1 3rd place finish
- 3 5th place finishes
- 5 playoff appearances
- 3 ALCS appearances

Still a lot of strange ups and downs, but I think most teams' fans would take this run over a 9, 10, or 11 year period, don'tcha think?
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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They've won a hell of a lot for such a foolish organization.
The current front office has won nothing. I'm not complaining about what Theo or Cherington or Dombrowski did.

I don't understand the mentality that says we should not be allowed to criticize the current Red Sox brain trust because prior management teams had success. Bloom had nothing to do with any of that.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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2012 was chosen because it was a) 10 years ago, and b) after Theo left, which represented a new direction for the club.

I have zero idea why you'd remove 2012 and 2020. The World Series was played in those seasons too. The Red Sox declined to participate in the playoff race in both of them. Yeah, 2020 was the COVID year but other teams managed not to be terrible. 2012 was the year the team thought it would be a good idea to hire Bobby Valentine and promptly implode.

I can't speak to other teams' fans. But having 5 seasons out of 10 where they weren't remotely competitive isn't really a great accomplishment, particularly given the financial resources the team has. If you're going to rightly hold up the playoff appearances over that time frame, it's equally as correct to hold up the wasted seasons.

Again, the boom and bust results are very strange.
 

moondog80

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2012 was chosen because it was a) 10 years ago, and b) after Theo left, which represented a new direction for the club.

I have zero idea why you'd remove 2012 and 2020. The World Series was played in those seasons too. The Red Sox declined to participate in the playoff race in both of them.

I can't speak to other teams' fans. But having 5 seasons out of 10 where they weren't remotely competitive isn't really a great accomplishment, particularly given the financial resources the team has. If you're going to rightly hold up the playoff appearances over that time frame, it's equally as correct to hold up the wasted seasons.

Again, the boom and bust results are very strange.
Swell.

As a Red Sox fan, which AL East team's post 2011 would you rather have?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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The current front office has won nothing. I'm not complaining about what Theo or Cherington or Dombrowski did.

I don't understand the mentality that says we should not be allowed to criticize the current Red Sox brain trust because prior management teams had success. Bloom had nothing to do with any of that.
Nobody is saying you can't criticize them. Have at it. I'm just saying that this organization has won a hell of a lot for a team that's made a lot of "foolish" decisions.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Swell.

As a Red Sox fan, which AL East team's post 2011 would you rather have?
AGAIN, my initial comment was that the boom/bust cycle is very very odd. When they're not World Champions they flame out spectacularly. Usually you see that from low market teams (KC did this in 2014/15) where they get a band together for a couple of great runs then break it up due to financial constraints. But the Sox, with all their resources, implode every few years.

That's something worth noting. The Dodgers, Yankees, Cardinals don't seem to do that. Why?

The 2021 Red Sox have disappeared, as Warden Norton once said, like a fart in the wind. I am not sure the plan was to build for one good year and then tear it all down again. Bloom, I'm sure, wanted to build for steady success. That hasn't happened.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Nobody is saying you can't criticize them. Have at it. I'm just saying that this organization has won a hell of a lot for a team that's made a lot of "foolish" decisions.
Again, I'm criticizing Bloom's decisions over the last three years, not the organization's over the last 20 years. Not sure why this isn't clear...
 

moondog80

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AGAIN, my initial comment was that the boom/bust cycle is very very odd. When they're not World Champions they flame out spectacularly. Usually you see that from low market teams (KC did this in 2014/15) where they get a band together for a couple of great runs then break it up due to financial constraints. But the Sox, with all their resources, implode every few years.

That's something worth noting. The Dodgers, Yankees, Cardinals don't seem to do that. Why?

The 2021 Red Sox have disappeared, as Warden Norton once said, like a fart in the wind. I am not sure the plan was to build for one good year and then tear it all down again. Bloom, I'm sure, wanted to build for steady success. That hasn't happened.
You are more of a Dodger than Mookie.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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2012 was chosen because it was a) 10 years ago, and b) after Theo left, which represented a new direction for the club.

I have zero idea why you'd remove 2012 and 2020. The World Series was played in those seasons too. The Red Sox declined to participate in the playoff race in both of them. Yeah, 2020 was the COVID year but other teams managed not to be terrible. 2012 was the year the team thought it would be a good idea to hire Bobby Valentine and promptly implode.

I can't speak to other teams' fans. But having 5 seasons out of 10 where they weren't remotely competitive isn't really a great accomplishment, particularly given the financial resources the team has. If you're going to rightly hold up the playoff appearances over that time frame, it's equally as correct to hold up the wasted seasons.

Again, the boom and bust results are very strange.
2012-2022 is actually 11 seasons, not 10. So if you wanted a 10-year run (and we know you're counting THIS year), it would begin in 2013, not 2012.

2020 should be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable. If that needs to be explained to anyone, we have bigger issues. It wasn't even remotely a "complete" season. Boston played 60 games. That's just 37% of a normal season's worth of games. In 2021 the Braves were 29-31 after 60 games, and completely out of the playoff picture. They ended up winning the World Series. No, I'm not saying the Red Sox would have won the World Series in 2020 over a full season; the point rather is that 60 games in BASEBALL cannot remotely be considered a "real" season. I think we all understand this.

And 5 out of 11 seasons where they were in last sure sucks. But those first place finishes and playoff appearances sure were nice, and winning 2 WS titles was pretty frigging awesome.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Again, I'm criticizing Bloom's decisions over the last three years, not the organization's over the last 20 years. Not sure why this isn't clear...
That's fair to criticize Bloom. But you can't do that in a vacuum. His decisions come within an organizational framework and direction set by the owners - the same owners who have won a hell of a lot - and by circumstances he found himself in when he took the job in the first place.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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2012-2022 is actually 11 seasons, not 10. So if you wanted a 10-year run (and we know you're counting THIS year), it would begin in 2013, not 2012.

2020 should be taken with the biggest grain of salt imaginable. If that needs to be explained to anyone, we have bigger issues. It wasn't even remotely a "complete" season. Boston played 60 games. That's just 37% of a normal season's worth of games. In 2021 the Braves were 29-31 after 60 games, and completely out of the playoff picture. They ended up winning the World Series. No, I'm not saying the Red Sox would have won the World Series in 2020 over a full season; the point rather is that 60 games in BASEBALL cannot remotely be considered a "real" season. I think we all understand this.

And 5 out of 11 seasons where they were in last sure sucks. But those first place finishes and playoff appearances sure were nice, and winning 2 WS titles was pretty frigging awesome.
2020 still counted, there was still a baseball season played. They played the World Series and everything. It was pretty cool. It would have been cooler to have had a chance to participate in it. The Red Sox politely declined.

2 WS titles is pretty awesome. I am pushing back on this Candide-like narrative that we are living in the best of all possible baseball worlds. I don't think it's a-ok that the team has completely non-competitive seasons every couple of years. I think that's very odd given the financial resources available to the organization.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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AGAIN, my initial comment was that the boom/bust cycle is very very odd. When they're not World Champions they flame out spectacularly. Usually you see that from low market teams (KC did this in 2014/15) where they get a band together for a couple of great runs then break it up due to financial constraints. But the Sox, with all their resources, implode every few years.

That's something worth noting. The Dodgers, Yankees, Cardinals don't seem to do that. Why?

The 2021 Red Sox have disappeared, as Warden Norton once said, like a fart in the wind. I am not sure the plan was to build for one good year and then tear it all down again. Bloom, I'm sure, wanted to build for steady success. That hasn't happened.
The Red Sox have also won a lot more WS titles than the Dodgers, Yankees, and Cardinals since 2004.

Boston: 4
Dodgers: 1
Yankees: 1
Cardinals: 2

In other words....these up and down Red Sox have won the same number of WS titles that those other three franchises have COMBINED since 2004.
 

jezza1918

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The current front office has won nothing. I'm not complaining about what Theo or Cherington or Dombrowski did.

I don't understand the mentality that says we should not be allowed to criticize the current Red Sox brain trust because prior management teams had success. Bloom had nothing to do with any of that.
Wasnt this FO/Bloom specifically tasked with building a more sustainable team through restocking the farm system while also remaining competitive at the major league level? Aka the opposite of the aforementioned Houston organization who are who they are today because of 6 straight bad (3 of them being 100+ loss teams) seasons. I personally dont put much of 2020 on Bloom given the timing of everything, ownership basically telling him to trade Mookie, covid, cora's suspension, etc (though I do understand if someone does want to pin 2020 on Bloom). So for me, Bloom has been an overall success so far as he has done a great job with the farm system, was very competitive in 2021, and was on pace for a 90 win season at the halfway point this year. The injuries this year are partly bad luck (as they all are), but also a fair amount on Bloom as well for the record, so it's not as if I love what he did with the team in 2022.
I do think 2023-2025 will be really telling for how well Bloom did - do some of these prospects start to make large contributions? If so my guess is the red sox will be extremely competitive the next chunk of years. If they dont, the red sox will likely flounder and ill be more than willing to call Bloom's tenure a failure.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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2020 still counted, there was still a baseball season played. They played the World Series and everything. It was pretty cool. It would have been cooler to have had a chance to participate in it. The Red Sox politely declined.
They did not, however, decline to charge their fans the highest ticket prices in baseball.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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2020 still counted, there was still a baseball season played. They played the World Series and everything. It was pretty cool. It would have been cooler to have had a chance to participate in it. The Red Sox politely declined.

2 WS titles is pretty awesome. I am pushing back on this Candide-like narrative that we are living in the best of all possible baseball worlds. I don't think it's a-ok that the team has completely non-competitive seasons every couple of years. I think that's very odd given the financial resources available to the organization.
There wasn't a "season" that was played. There was 37% of a "season" that was played.

And NOBODY - literally nobody - is saying anything CLOSE to "we are living in the best of all possible baseball worlds". As a mod, you'd rightly get on a poster for throwing that out there, because it's the strawiest of straw men.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The Red Sox have also won a lot more WS titles than the Dodgers, Yankees, and Cardinals since 2004.

Boston: 4
Dodgers: 1
Yankees: 1
Cardinals: 2

In other words....these up and down Red Sox have won the same number of WS titles that those other three franchises have COMBINED since 2004.
Which is great. Really, it's wonderful.

The Sox do not have the same FO now as they did in 2004. The world has changed and the circumstances surrounding the club's narrative have changed as well.

It's a fair question, would you rather have every year matter or have a few great years and mail in the rest. I will just say this year has been a massive disappointment and huge waste which has tossed away any good feelings from last year.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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There wasn't a "season" that was played. There was 37% of a "season" that was played.

And NOBODY - literally nobody - is saying anything CLOSE to "we are living in the best of all possible baseball worlds". As a mod, you'd rightly get on a poster for throwing that out there, because it's the strawiest of straw men.
I would argue that many, many people are actually saying that.
 

moondog80

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The prosecution should chill the eff out.

I'm happy with the WS titles. I'm unhappy with the implosions seemingly every other year. Seems pretty straight forward.
The question wasn't "Do you like it when things go well and dislike it when they go poorly?". It was how you feel about the totality of those events relative to their competition over the same time period. And for some reason, you won't answer that.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The question wasn't "Do you like it when things go well and dislike it when they go poorly?". It was how you feel about the totality of those events relative to their competition over the same time period. And for some reason, you won't answer that.
I believe I already have. You're simply not listening.

Take it to my DMs if you want to continue this.
 

tims4wins

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Which is great. Really, it's wonderful.

The Sox do not have the same FO now as they did in 2004. The world has changed and the circumstances surrounding the club's narrative have changed as well.

It's a fair question, would you rather have every year matter or have a few great years and mail in the rest. I will just say this year has been a massive disappointment and huge waste which has tossed away any good feelings from last year.
Pre-2004, we all probably would have taken a last place finish to the rest of eternity in exchange for one title.

In 2022, with 4 titles in the bank, I'd probably rather have a team that entertains me / keeps me engaged through September (and hopefully into October) with players I enjoy watching.*

Also, I'm 18 years older than I was in 2022.

* 2021 met this standard for me, because despite the lack of Mookie, I still enjoyed a lot of players on the team, and playoff baseball appearances ultimately trump individual personalities

Edit: to summarize, I'm no longer title or bust; but seasons like 2019, 2022, not to mention 2012, 2015, etc. are horrible when there is nothing to root for by the trading deadline
 
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Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat

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The question wasn't "Do you like it when things go well and dislike it when they go poorly?". It was how you feel about the totality of those events relative to their competition over the same time period. And for some reason, you won't answer that.
I actually think this would be a fun discussion if people would put away their agendas. Which will never happen in a Mookie thread.
Would you as a fan rather be boom or bust and win more championships, or be competitive every year and win fewer. Basically over the past 20 years would you rather have the Sox performance or the Dodgers or Yankees?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Pre-2004, we all probably would have taken a last place finish to the rest of eternity in exchange for one title.

In 2022, with 4 titles in the bank, I'd probably rather have a team that entertains me / keeps me engaged through September (and hopefully into October) with players I enjoy watching.*

Also, I'm 18 years older than I was in 2022.

* 2021 met this standard for me, because due to the lack of Mookie, I still enjoyed a lot of players on the team, and playoff baseball appearances ultimately trump individual personalities
Yup, this is where I'm at. The world has changed.
 

BigSoxFan

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Pre-2004, we all probably would have taken a last place finish to the rest of eternity in exchange for one title.

In 2022, with 4 titles in the bank, I'd probably rather have a team that entertains me / keeps me engaged through September (and hopefully into October) with players I enjoy watching.*

Also, I'm 18 years older than I was in 2022.

* 2021 met this standard for me, because despite the lack of Mookie, I still enjoyed a lot of players on the team, and playoff baseball appearances ultimately trump individual personalities
Same here. The Sox have won 4 titles in my lifetime so I'm set. We all want to win more rings but is anyone really complaining about the Celtics' past decade? Nope. Having a team that's consistently good is incredibly compelling. Sometimes teams just don't get over the hump and that's ok. The Red Sox have put an absolute garbage product on the field like 40-50% of the time over the past decade. That's not good. 2 title runs help to smooth that over but give me the Dodgers' run with 1 title over our 2 titles and being bored with this team by May half the time.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I don't think anyone is saying that one isn't allowed to criticize either Bloom or the Front Office. I don't think anyone here is saying the way they've run it over the past X amount of years is the best ever... nor the worst ever.
Criticizing Bloom has to be put in the context of several things though- the situation he walked into... which was "trade Mookie since we aren't going to resign him (for whatever reasons, it doesn't matter... he's gone!). That's a shitty situation and unless he was able to turn Mookie (and Price) into basically Mookie (without Price) he was going to get shit on. Then the Covid season happened (personally I will always put a * on the season and the World Series that year but that's me) and injuries and some horrifyingly bad play put the Red Sox in last place.
The following year Bloom made some great moves and they were 2 games away from a World Series appearance.
This year the team has played terrible.... then great... then pretty badly and here we are. I think THIS year there is some serious legit criticism of Bloom; the RF situation. The 1B situation. The bullpen. The rotation. I can defend the 1B situation and can't be convinced by naysayers that he should have done something better. The rotation he actually did quite well on also.... he planned for injuries pretty well (nobody can plan for a $30M starter by signing a FA as his replacement). The bullpen has been bad but I'm also not sure I disagree with how he built it at all. The only thing I think was a legit bad decision was the JBJ trade. It didn't make sense in the slightest unless Bloom miscalculated the market which I think he did. That's on him and he needs to fix it.
The biggest thing he has done is seriously rebuild the farm system and it is still a year from REALLY being a contributing factor at the ML level. I view '23 as another step towards the long term success that is supposedly the goal. The only way to really provide insurance for a Chris Sale is to have developed that guy and have him at a controlled salary. The Sox failed to do that but it looks like with Bello they may have that guy finally.
Bloom needs 2-3 more seasons of patience. Some posters here don't have that. I get it. I do... and the reason is the 4 WS over the past 20 years and an ALCS appearance last year with a fun (Mookie-less) team that I didn't expect. If I was a MFY's fan, I'd have less patience right now.
The biggest issue with me with this team this year (and last years to an extent) was the dumb play in the field and the overly aggressive plate appearances and the seeming lack of accountability on that play. That... to me is on Cora more than anyone else.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Since 2004 I’d rather have the Sox’ history than the Dodgers’. Since 2014, I'd rather have the Dodgers' history than the Sox'.

The Dodgers are the only team whose successful run is one that I'd even consider preferring over Boston's, and not even them if we take it back to 2004.

So from that lens, I'd say the Sox have been pretty frigging awesome if there's just one team that I'd even *consider* swapping with.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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Since 2004 I’d rather have the Sox’ history than the Dodgers’. Since 2014, I'd rather have the Dodgers' history than the Sox'.

The Dodgers are the only team whose successful run is one that I'd even consider preferring over Boston's, and not even them if we take it back to 2004.

So from that lens, I'd say the Sox have been pretty frigging awesome if there's just one team that I'd even *consider* swapping with.
Since then Astros have been probably the no. 2 team. I'd consider trading teams with them. Also have to add that they have consistently let their homegrown stars walk away, (Springer, Correa) allowing great players they've brought in to walk away (Cole)... and are still at the top of the league. Correa and Betts are pretty similar.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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The Dodgers' homegrown stars that they've let depart, one way or the other....

Yasuel Puig - after his age 27 season (2018) where he had a 120 ops+ and 2.3 bWAR, was let go.
Hyun Jim Ryu - after his age 32 season (2019) where he went 14-5 with a league-leading 2.32 era, was let go.
Kenley Jansen - after his age 33 season (2021) where he had 38 saves and a 2.22 era, was let go.
Dee Strange-Gordon - after his age 26 season (2014) where he had a league-leading 12 triples and 64 sb, finishing 25th in MVP voting, and had 3.5 bWAR, was traded to Miami.
Matt Kemp - after his age 29 season (2014) where he hit 25 homers, had a 140 ops+, was let go.
Joc Pederson - after his age 28 season (2020) which was the bizarre Covid year, but the year prior he had 36 homers and a 126 ops+, was let go (where he helped the Braves win a WS).
Corey Seager - after his age 27 season (2021) where he slashed .306/.394/.521/.915 with a 142 ops+, was let go.

I mean not each of these guys is an MVP caliber player, but they are (or were in some cases) really, really, really good players, all homegrown, and all guys the Dodgers let go via free agency or traded away just since 2014.

The two keys to their success have been: (1) a steady pipeline of homegrown talent that replaces the talent they let go (on the roster, even if not exactly at that specific position) - which is EXACTLY what Bloom is trying to set up here, and (2) willingness to spend a ton of money - though, as I pointed out a number of posts ago, even THEY did a luxury tax reset a couple of times, not unlike what Boston just went through.
 
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EvilEmpire

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What history fans would rather have is always an interesting question. I think another interesting question is, as things stand right now, what near future would you rather pin your hopes on?

I think it is hard to look beyond the Dodgers for that.

Obviously you can have a consistently strong team enjoy a lot of success without winning a championship. The Yankees have been doing that for a while now, but at least all but the youngest fans have some history to console themselves with. There are no guarantees.

Boston's recent championships don't tell me anything about Bloom. I'm curious to see how things work out.
 

Sin Duda

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I agree with SLT's positions, and less eloquently, would reply to these question as follows:
  • Are you happy with the direction of the franchise? Yes, arrow pointed up due to the farm system progressions
  • Are you happy with this year's team? No, it's amazing how badly they've played given how well they played last year.
  • Was it a mistake to trade Mookie with Price stapled; might as well get something for him and get rid of Price)
  • Do you think the Front Office can win another (or multiple) World Series? Yes (I count ownership as part of the FO). They've proven they know how to do this, and Chaim's vision of sustainable team is a good strategy that he is implementing already (evidence is growth of prospects)
  • Would you trade the Sox prince or pauper results with another team's results over this century? No, FFF, man
 

BigSoxFan

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The Dodgers' homegrown stars that they've let depart, one way or the other....

Yasuel Puig - after his age 27 season (2018) where he had a 120 ops+ and 2.3 bWAR, was let go.
Hyun Jim Ryu - after his age 32 season (2019) where he went 14-5 with a league-leading 2.32 era, was let go.
Kenley Jansen - after his age 33 season (2021) where he had 38 saves and a 2.22 era, was let go.
Dee Strange-Gordon - after his age 26 season (2014) where he had a league-leading 12 triples and 64 sb, finishing 25th in MVP voting, and had 3.5 bWAR, was traded to Miami.
Matt Kemp - after his age 29 season (2014) where he hit 25 homers, had a 140 ops+, was let go.
Joc Pederson - after his age 28 season (2020) which was the bizarre Covid year, but the year prior he had 36 homers and a 126 ops+, was let go (where he helped the Braves win a WS).
Corey Seager - after his age 27 season (2021) where he slashed .306/.394/.521/.915 with a 142 ops+, was let go.

I mean not each of these guys is an MVP caliber player, but they are (or were in some cases) really, really, really good players, all homegrown, and all guys the Dodgers let go via free agency or traded away just since 2014.

The two keys to their success have been: (1) a steady pipeline of homegrown talent that replaces the talent they let go (on the roster, even if not exactly at that specific position) - which is EXACTLY what Bloom is trying to set up here, and (2) willingness to spend a ton of money - though, as I pointed out a number of posts ago, even THEY did a luxury tax reset a couple of times, not unlike what Boston just went through.
Don't forget Yordan Alvarez who they traded in 2016 for Josh Fields...ouch.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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The Dodgers' homegrown stars that they've let depart, one way or the other....

Yasuel Puig - after his age 27 season (2018) where he had a 120 ops+ and 2.3 bWAR, was let go.
Hyun Jim Ryu - after his age 32 season (2019) where he went 14-5 with a league-leading 2.32 era, was let go.
Kenley Jansen - after his age 33 season (2021) where he had 38 saves and a 2.22 era, was let go.
Dee Strange-Gordon - after his age 26 season (2014) where he had a league-leading 12 triples and 64 sb, finishing 25th in MVP voting, and had 3.5 bWAR, was traded to Miami.
Matt Kemp - after his age 29 season (2014) where he hit 25 homers, had a 140 ops+, was let go.
Joc Pederson - after his age 28 season (2020) which was the bizarre Covid year, but the year prior he had 36 homers and a 126 ops+, was let go (where he helped the Braves win a WS).
Corey Seager - after his age 27 season (2021) where he slashed .306/.394/.521/.915 with a 142 ops+, was let go.

I mean not each of these guys is an MVP caliber player, but they are (or were in some cases) really, really, really good players, all homegrown, and all guys the Dodgers let go via free agency or traded away just since 2014.

The two keys to their success have been: (1) a steady pipeline of homegrown talent that replaces the talent they let go (on the roster, even if not exactly at that specific position) - which is EXACTLY what Bloom is trying to set up here, and (2) willingness to spend a ton of money - though, as I pointed out a number of posts ago, even THEY did a luxury tax reset a couple of times, not unlike what Boston just went through.
They've also made some very good trades (absorbing lots of cash) and finding undervalued players. Bloom has a mixed bag on this last bit. Great in '21 and struck out in '22... but he needs to keep doing this. Every team does.
 

Max Power

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The Dodgers' homegrown stars that they've let depart, one way or the other....

Yasuel Puig - after his age 27 season (2018) where he had a 120 ops+ and 2.3 bWAR, was let go.
Hyun Jim Ryu - after his age 32 season (2019) where he went 14-5 with a league-leading 2.32 era, was let go.
Kenley Jansen - after his age 33 season (2021) where he had 38 saves and a 2.22 era, was let go.
Dee Strange-Gordon - after his age 26 season (2014) where he had a league-leading 12 triples and 64 sb, finishing 25th in MVP voting, and had 3.5 bWAR, was traded to Miami.
Matt Kemp - after his age 29 season (2014) where he hit 25 homers, had a 140 ops+, was let go.
Joc Pederson - after his age 28 season (2020) which was the bizarre Covid year, but the year prior he had 36 homers and a 126 ops+, was let go (where he helped the Braves win a WS).
Corey Seager - after his age 27 season (2021) where he slashed .306/.394/.521/.915 with a 142 ops+, was let go.

I mean not each of these guys is an MVP caliber player, but they are (or were in some cases) really, really, really good players, all homegrown, and all guys the Dodgers let go via free agency or traded away just since 2014.

The two keys to their success have been: (1) a steady pipeline of homegrown talent that replaces the talent they let go (on the roster, even if not exactly at that specific position) - which is EXACTLY what Bloom is trying to set up here, and (2) willingness to spend a ton of money - though, as I pointed out a number of posts ago, even THEY did a luxury tax reset a couple of times, not unlike what Boston just went through.
The three best Dodgers position players (Mookie, Freeman, and Trea) were all acquired from other organizations. Their best pitchers are all from their organization. I don't know if that's the long term plan for the team, but in general they seem to be much better at developing pitching than position players.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

All Hail King Boron
Dope
May 20, 2003
33,384
Deep inside Muppet Labs
I don't think there's any question that the Dodgers have put together an incredibly impressive organization. This year will be their 10th straight playoff appearance. And while they've won "only" 1 World Series, they've made two others (and lost one of them in 7 games to a team that was cheating), and have won 91+ games every year, 100+ games three times with this year likely to be the 4th.

They have figured something out for sure. They are great at drafting their own starting pitchers.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
6,775
What history fans would rather have is always an interesting question. I think another interesting question is, as things stand right now, what near future would you rather pin your hopes on?

I think it is hard to look beyond the Dodgers for that.

Obviously you can have a consistently strong team enjoy a lot of success without winning a championship. The Yankees have been doing that for a while now, but at least all but the youngest fans have some history to console themselves with. There are no guarantees.

Boston's recent championships don't tell me anything about Bloom. I'm curious to see how things work out.
Agree on the Dodgers. Somehow they still have a top 3 farm system and Mookie and Freeman are the only long terms deals on their books (Chris Taylor 3 more years at 45 mil maybe too) . It's them by a mile.

Within the AL East, the competition looks strong for a while, with Baltimore having graduated the top prospect in the game and still ranking as the #1 farm system. I keep thinking the clock has to strike midnight for Tampa at some point but a 29 year old journeyman named Jeffrey Springs (who apparently pitched for the Red Sox in 2020) has a 2.41 ERA in 21 starts this year so who knows, maybe they claim Dalbec this offseason and turn him into a few years of cheap 130 OPS+ and the wheel keeps on turning.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
18,864
Springs
- In Texas (2 seasons): 4.90 era, 1.66 whip
- In Boston (1 season): 7.08 era, 1.82 whip
- In Tampa (2 seasons): 2.69 era, 1.09 whip

I mean.....how do they do it? This year, they have *3* players with double digit homers. Only *TWO* players with more than TEN homers at this point, and none with 20 or more.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

has fancy plans, and pants to match
Dope
Apr 12, 2001
22,263
The Dodgers' homegrown stars that they've let depart, one way or the other....

Yasuel Puig - after his age 27 season (2018) where he had a 120 ops+ and 2.3 bWAR, was let go.
Hyun Jim Ryu - after his age 32 season (2019) where he went 14-5 with a league-leading 2.32 era, was let go.
Kenley Jansen - after his age 33 season (2021) where he had 38 saves and a 2.22 era, was let go.
Dee Strange-Gordon - after his age 26 season (2014) where he had a league-leading 12 triples and 64 sb, finishing 25th in MVP voting, and had 3.5 bWAR, was traded to Miami.
Matt Kemp - after his age 29 season (2014) where he hit 25 homers, had a 140 ops+, was let go.
Joc Pederson - after his age 28 season (2020) which was the bizarre Covid year, but the year prior he had 36 homers and a 126 ops+, was let go (where he helped the Braves win a WS).
Corey Seager - after his age 27 season (2021) where he slashed .306/.394/.521/.915 with a 142 ops+, was let go.

I mean not each of these guys is an MVP caliber player, but they are (or were in some cases) really, really, really good players, all homegrown, and all guys the Dodgers let go via free agency or traded away just since 2014.

The two keys to their success have been: (1) a steady pipeline of homegrown talent that replaces the talent they let go (on the roster, even if not exactly at that specific position) - which is EXACTLY what Bloom is trying to set up here, and (2) willingness to spend a ton of money - though, as I pointed out a number of posts ago, even THEY did a luxury tax reset a couple of times, not unlike what Boston just went through.
I don't think that anyone is saying that the Red Sox have to hoard all players at any cost, but none of these players were as good as Mookie Betts. Maybe Seager, but they had his replacement in place. The Sox willingly traded a generational talent without having a successor in place and they got back a trio of average (at best) players.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
18,864
I don't think that anyone is saying that the Red Sox have to hoard all players at any cost, but none of these players were as good as Mookie Betts. Maybe Seager, but they had his replacement in place. The Sox willingly traded a generational talent without having a successor in place and they got back a trio of average (at best) players.
I think going through the history of it again is helpful.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/mookie-details-boston-exit.36752/post-5171834
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
6,606
Springs
- In Texas (2 seasons): 4.90 era, 1.66 whip
- In Boston (1 season): 7.08 era, 1.82 whip
- In Tampa (2 seasons): 2.69 era, 1.09 whip

I mean.....how do they do it? This year, they have *3* players with double digit homers. Only *TWO* players with more than TEN homers at this point, and none with 20 or more.
Their pitching staff is filled with players that were freely available within the last few years, and could have been acquired by anyone. Springs, Adam, Poche, Raley, Wisler, Fairbanks, Kittredge, etc etc.

Perhaps the Sox should try to hire whomever is in charge of the Rays pitching program.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
18,864
Their pitching staff is filled with players that were freely available within the last few years, and could have been acquired by anyone. Springs, Adam, Poche, Raley, Wisler, Fairbanks, Kittredge, etc etc.

Perhaps the Sox should try to hire whomever is in charge of the Rays pitching program.
Well, they did hire the guy who was in charge of their entire organization.
 

absintheofmalaise

too many flowers
Dope
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2005
20,670
The gran facenda
I don't think there's any question that the Dodgers have put together an incredibly impressive organization. This year will be their 10th straight playoff appearance. And while they've won "only" 1 World Series, they've made two others (and lost one of them in 7 games to a team that was cheating), and have won 91+ games every year, 100+ games three times with this year likely to be the 4th.

They have figured something out for sure.
This was essentially the Braves from 1991 to 2005.
14 Division titles. Second once. Five World Series. One WS title.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
6,606
The weird thing is that they had the best season as a franchise, then canned their GM less than a year later despite an in injury riddled yet still winning season and decided to make a dramatic effort to improve their farm system (while lowering the quality of their big league team) and moving the best player on the roster primarily to duck a tax bill.

Maybe in a few years the system will be producing enough talent to be in a position similar to where they were- but given the changes in the draft, int’l free agents, etc- that seems challenging. Ultimately, it seems like there wasn’t a lot of long term planning going on in recent org history and the shifts in organizational thinking seem kind of jarring.

What happens this off-season….a bunch of huge signings that they will then potentially be trying to get out of in a few years?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
6,606
Yeah, the Dodger have let a lot of home grown talent go elsewhere.

A guy they bought and kept was Mookie.
The biggest thing here is obviously that the Red Sox haven’t had much home grown talent at all in recent years, especially on the pitching side. Having more home grown talent allows more flexibility; easier said than done, of course, as every team is trying to identify and develop young talent.