Mookie Betts

Snodgrass'Muff

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I'm not looking to start another run of "here's what I would trade for Stanton" posts... we've all gone there and many of us have already posted what we think.  However, I don't think anyone on this board would complain about Betts for Stanton straight up.  What might be unpopular is a package where Betts is one of several top prospects moved.  That, at least, is debatable.  Betts for Stanton straight up?  Or Betts plus a bunch of prospects in the 10-40 range?  We'd all be doing back flips.
 

OptimusPapi

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This is probably completely crazy but the Sox can see if Betts can become that power hitting corner outfielder instead of trading for the expensive aging veteran. Yeah I know crazy. Here is another crazy idea. Teams don't bend over backwards because the Sox come calling. The Marlins are winning. There is a very good chance they will keep Stanton in order to make a run for it over the next few years. But like I said crazy. 
 

Rovin Romine

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OptimusPapi said:
This is probably completely crazy but the Sox can see if Betts can become that power hitting corner outfielder instead of trading for the expensive aging veteran. Yeah I know crazy. Here is another crazy idea. Teams don't bend over backwards because the Sox come calling. The Marlins are winning. There is a very good chance they will keep Stanton in order to make a run for it over the next few years. But like I said crazy. 
 
The Marlins are also kind of crazy.  Loria has shown himself to be completely tone deaf to fans in the recent past.  I don't think he'd have any compunction about trading Stanton for the best package he could get for him, provided the trade didn't hurt his instant revenue stream.  That said, there are rumblings that Loria is taking more of a back seat role - http://www.fishstripes.com/2014/1/28/5352836/miami-marlins-owner-jeffrey-loria-relinquishing-control
 

DGreenwood

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OptimusPapi said:
This is probably completely crazy but the Sox can see if Betts can become that power hitting corner outfielder instead of trading for the expensive aging veteran. Yeah I know crazy. Here is another crazy idea. Teams don't bend over backwards because the Sox come calling. The Marlins are winning. There is a very good chance they will keep Stanton in order to make a run for it over the next few years. But like I said crazy. 
Stanton is 24. And Betts is not going to become anything close to the power hitter that Stanton is.
 

BosRedSox5

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DGreenwood said:
Stanton is 24. And Betts is not going to become anything close to the power hitter that Stanton is.
 
Betts is 5'9" 156 lbs and has a career .464 SLG. I don't think he's going to become anything close to the power hitter that Jonny Gomes is. Betts looks really good, but he seems like more of a Bill Mueller type with wheels. 
 

MalzoneExpress

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BosRedSox5 said:
 
Betts is 5'9" 156 lbs and has a career .464 SLG. I don't think he's going to become anything close to the power hitter that Jonny Gomes is. Betts looks really good, but he seems like more of a Bill Mueller type with wheels. 
Or maybe he becomes the modern day Jimmy Wynn. I'd take Toy Cannon II.
 
edit: I don't spell gud.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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BosRedSox5 said:
 
Betts is 5'9" 156 lbs and has a career .464 SLG. I don't think he's going to become anything close to the power hitter that Jonny Gomes is. Betts looks really good, but he seems like more of a Bill Mueller type with wheels. 
 
I think there's a middle ground between Stanton and Bill Mueller. At 21, Mueller had yet to play a single professional game. His career minor league ISO was .104. At 21, Mookie is in triple-A and has a career minor league ISO of .149.
 
The Jimmy Wynn comp may be exaggerating Mookie's HR potential a bit, but I think he'll hit some HR and a ton of doubles. For an offensive comp for his ceiling (and yeah, this is dreaming large), I think we could do worse than Roberto Alomar. . Of course it's a lot to ask that he'll be that good. But he's shown that kind of promise.
 

LondonSox

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Update:
22 Games into AAA (and a 22 game on base streak... sounds familiar)
330/422/455/876
14 BB 13k 3 2b 1 3b and 2 HR
7 SB 2 CS
 
Last 10 games 395/469/512/981
 

BosRedSox5

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
I think there's a middle ground between Stanton and Bill Mueller. At 21, Mueller had yet to play a single professional game. His career minor league ISO was .104. At 21, Mookie is in triple-A and has a career minor league ISO of .149.
 
The Jimmy Wynn comp may be exaggerating Mookie's HR potential a bit, but I think he'll hit some HR and a ton of doubles. For an offensive comp for his ceiling (and yeah, this is dreaming large), I think we could do worse than Roberto Alomar. . Of course it's a lot to ask that he'll be that good. But he's shown that kind of promise.
 
Are the two projections that far off? Obviously Alomar is the better player but here's their two career slash lines:

Mueller: .291/.373/.425/.797
Alomar: .300/.371/.443/.814
 
Obviously Alomar had higher peak seasons than Mueller (although, Mueller was excellent in 2004) but those lines were about what I was thinking for Betts' best seasons. I see him as a guy who will get on base, hit for a high average and have just enough pop to be interesting and multi-dimentional. I also expect him to create a lot of value with his legs for a while, but have the batting eye to have a long career. 
 

Eddie Jurak

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The difference is that Mueller played basically his whole career during peak offense, while Alomar played the early part of his career during a weak offensive era. Also he came up younger and played longer.

If Betts could be even a poor man's Alomar, that would make him a keeper.
 

Frisbetarian

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Mookie has played right field the last 2 games, and threw out a runner trying to advance to 3rd last night. His AAA on-base streak is up to 23 games with 2 walks in his first two at bats tonight. 
 

The Gray Eagle

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Excellent news. He had over 100 PAs in AAA, and hit .322/.425/.444, with 16 walks to 13 strikeouts. He got on base in every game, stole bases and gunned people down from the outfield. He really doesn't have much left to show at the minor league level, other than if he can sustain this dominance for a long stretch. He really handled AAA well, if only in 23 games. If he can sustain this for a longer period, why not have it happen in the majors? If he can't sustain it and his walk-strikeout rate plummets or something, you can always send him back down. Reward him for his dominance and find out if he's ready now. If not, no big deal, he had a taste and gets to figure out what he needs to work on. He wasn't getting that from the minor league competition. 
 
Betts has utterly dominated the minors this year. In 304 minor league at-bats, he raked at a .345/.437/.520 clip, with 29 stolen bases in 34 attempts. 51 walks to 31 whiffs. He has been astoundingly good in the minors, so let's see what he can do in the majors. 
 

Hendu At The Wall

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RedOctober3829 said:
My guess is that he gets promoted around the end of June.  If you look at the top positional player prospects of recent memory, they haven't been promoted to Pawtucket with less than 61 games played at Portland.
 
JBJ: 61
Dustin Pedroia and Garin Cecchini: 66
Jacoby Ellsbury: 67
Xander Bogaerts: 79
 
He's played 48 games at Portland. 
Nice work!
 

radsoxfan

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Hendu At The Wall said:
Nice work!
 
Maybe you are just being sarcastic, but that post was referring to promoting Mookie to AAA at the end of June…. Just one level off I suppose. 
 

Apisith

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Hendu At The Wall said:
Nice work!
Promoted at the end of June.... to AAA, not the majors. Heh. It shows how ridiculous this kid is. He's being fast tracked through the system in a way no other modern day prospect of ours has been before.
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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Maybe this call up is just a showcase to convince the Marlins that Mookie isn't just worth Stanton, but that they should also toss in Fernandez too.  And maybe Heaney.
 

Hendu At The Wall

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radsoxfan said:
Maybe you are just being sarcastic, but that post was referring to promoting Mookie to AAA at the end of June…. Just one level off I suppose.
I wasn't - I only realized my mistake after posting. It's incredible to go back through this thread and follow the progression. He has been unbelievable this year.

Just seven days you hers than Xander - they'll be a fun pair to watch for a long time.
 

LondonSox

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So after the best part of a month playing infrequently in the bigs Mookie is back down.
 
PErsonally I think that's the worst use of a top prospect. Call him up, play him, if not leave him to get the regular ABs in the minors.
Anyhooooo
 
In the bigs he played 10g, 34 AB, 2 2B, 1HR, 1SB, 1CS, 1BB, 5K
235/ 278/382/ 660 line booooo
 
Anyway back to AAA and a hitless 0/4 game 1 and 1k
Last night 2/5 a double a CS and a k
 
edit oh and he played the OF
 

LondonSox

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Another great night for Mookie last night 4/5 and a BB too. 2 R, 1RBI, 2B.
 
Since he got back to AAA (SSS) srikeouts had increased and walks decreased, so nice to see the two games with walks (the last two) after none since he was demoted before that.
So looks like he's getting back to the Mookie we know.
 

The Gray Eagle

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He went 0/4 in his first game back in AAA. In the 7 games since, he is 13/32 (.406) with 2 doubles, a triple and a homer, 7 RBI, 6 walks, 9 Ks.
 
His AAA line on the season: 126 at-bats, .333/.417/.476.
 
This kid continues to tear up the minors. 340 minor league at-bats in 2014: .347/.433/.524. 9 HRs, 29 steals in 35 attempts.
For comparison, Bogaerts last year in the minors hit .297/.388/.497. Xander is a fantastic prospect who was great in the minors last year at a young age. Mookie is also hitting 50 points higher than Xander did in the minors last year. 
 
No need to compare them against each other, but it's kind of odd that everyone believes in Xander (as they should) but not as many people seem to believe in Betts.
 
Maybe people have kind of cooled on him a bit since he went up and came back down (I keep seeing his name in stupid trade proposals on the main board now) but that would be a mistake, he is a fantastic prospect who is having an incredible season. 
 

Ferm Sheller

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You needn't worry. Only morons have "cooled" on Betts because he didn't tear it up in his cup of coffee debut.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Mookie with a walkoff bomb today, along with two BBs.  That's three HR in his last five games.
 
Unfortunately, he seems like the big loser from today's trade activities.  While other shoes may drop, its hard to see where he fits into the team's plans for 2015, other than as an injury replacement riding the shuttle (or as the key asset in a trade).  Assuming he keeps killing AAA, it'll be interesting to see what the projection systems predict for him in 2015 as compared to Cespedes, Craig, and Victorino. 
 

Sprowl

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Mookie with a walkoff bomb today, along with two BBs.  That's three HR in his last five games.
 
Unfortunately, he seems like the big loser from today's trade activities.  While other shoes may drop, its hard to see where he fits into the team's plans for 2015, other than as an injury replacement riding the shuttle (or as the key asset in a trade).  Assuming he keeps killing AAA, it'll be interesting to see what the projection systems predict for him in 2015 as compared to Cespedes, Craig, and Victorino.
Mookie definitely loses out from the appearance of RH-slugging corner outfielders, but there's still a current and possibly ongoing role as Bradley's platoon partner in centerfield. I suppose it depends what scouts say about Mookie's brief performance in centerfield, but I thought he looked promising but in need of Fenway experience.

Also, it's nice to have BrockHolt as an all-purpose do-everything, but this could well turn out to be a career year for him, leaving the role to Mookie in 2015. Predicting a flameout would be sacrilege, of course, so I'm just alluding to its possibility.
 

Sprowl

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OptimusPapi said:
Is third a crazy idea?
 
Holdt, Middlebrooks, Cecchini, Bogaerts and a few others scream: Yes, Yes, Crazy! Looney Tunes!! Not a good idea at all. Awful, terrible, unthinkable. :angry:
 

kneemoe

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Mookie with a walkoff bomb today, along with two BBs.  That's three HR in his last five games.
 
Unfortunately, he seems like the big loser from today's trade activities.  While other shoes may drop, its hard to see where he fits into the team's plans for 2015, other than as an injury replacement riding the shuttle (or as the key asset in a trade).  Assuming he keeps killing AAA, it'll be interesting to see what the projection systems predict for him in 2015 as compared to Cespedes, Craig, and Victorino. 
After the BC press conference declaring Cespedes our new RFer I would expect them to move Victorino before 2015, as much as I like him he's a redundant-injury-prone-expensive piece to be sitting on the bench instead of Betts.
 

mt8thsw9th

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Sprowl said:
 
Holdt, Middlebrooks, Cecchini, Bogaerts and a few others scream: Yes, Yes, Crazy! Looney Tunes!! Not a good idea at all. Awful, terrible, unthinkable. :angry:
 
I presume you mean Holt, but Middlebrooks hasn't really hit since the first Obama administration (nor in years that don't end in 11 or 12), Cecchini's lack of power has unfortunately been exposed so far, and Bogaerts would have to deal with being SS. That is assuming you weren't making a joke.
 
Middlebrooks shouldn't be in their plans unless it's a call-up from AAA if someone gets hurt, and Betts is likely a better option than anyone from a 3B class that is headlined by Pablo Sandoval (who wants about a third of a mil per pound), a 37 year old Aramis Ramirez (who has an option), and Chase Headley.
 

Byrdbrain

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Middlebrooks is getting called up now and likely will be starting at 3B tomorrow. I assume this will be his last shot at showing he can be a MLB hitter.
I actually think Betts is very much in the mix at 3b, his arm isn't great but it should play fine at 3B.
 
I still think X is the most likely long term answer at 3b but we shall see.
 
Oh and he clearly was making a joke.
 

LondonSox

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Mookie is back in the minors and mashing
 
Two games, 4/8 2 2B, 2BB, 1 K, 3 RBI, 3R, 1CS
 
Just your crappy 600 OBP after getting off the shuttle. I'm sure most of the team in the majors can hit like this but are choosing not to, to help get a better draft pick.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Isn't it a better idea to have Betts play a Holt-like supersub role in 2015 -- spelling Victorino/JBJ as RF/CF and the occasional Pedey backup? Seems to me keeping Betts/Owens/++ package would be a more prudent move than Stanton with his big payday coming up (and Cespedes'), especially with a need to pick up a legit top 2 starter (i.e., Shields). 
 

Pumpsie

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Mookie continues to demolish the minor leagues. 3 for 5 last night, so now in 159 AAA at-bats, he's at .333/.421/.516 for a sweet .936 OPS
 
The Red Sox would be crazy to trade him at this point. He needs to be considered untouchable and needs to be playing every day in the majors by September at the latest, and penciled in as a fulltimer for next year as well. 
This.  Mookie not only is the Sox' #1 prospect at this point, he can play anywhere AND he's already a fan favorite.  Trade someone else, and that certainly includes JBJ and might even include X, to get a Stanton.  But you can't trade Mookie. 
 

IdiotKicker

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Pumpsie said:
This.  Mookie not only is the Sox' #1 prospect at this point, he can play anywhere AND he's already a fan favorite.  Trade someone else, and that certainly includes JBJ and might even include X, to get a Stanton.  But you can't trade Mookie.
As Bill Belichick would say, let's not put him in the Hall of Fame yet. Let's not forget that Xander had some very impressive numbers in the minors and was as close to a sure thing as we've seen in awhile and he has had major struggles this year. Until you do it in the majors, it doesn't really mean anything. I love Mookie's game, but in the right deal for the right player, I would absolutely move him. I'm not saying to actively shop him, but no prospect should be untouchable, especially for a guy like Stanton.
 

benhogan

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Chuck Z said:
As Bill Belichick would say, let's not put him in the Hall of Fame yet. Let's not forget that Xander had some very impressive numbers in the minors and was as close to a sure thing as we've seen in awhile and he has had major struggles this year. Until you do it in the majors, it doesn't really mean anything. I love Mookie's game, but in the right deal for the right player, I would absolutely move him. I'm not saying to actively shop him, but no prospect should be untouchable, especially for a guy like Stanton.
Probably best to keep both guys .
 
Just a note, Mookie has hit for a higher OPS then Xander at Grenville, Salem, Portland and Pawtucket plus Mookie has more speed and probably a better glove.
 
Its time to DFA Kelly Johnson and start Mookie in CF.
 

IdiotKicker

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benhogan said:
Probably best to keep both guys .
It will depend on what potential deals look like in terms of other prospects involved. I would agree that I wouldn't be in a hurry to move either, but in the right deal, I would absolutely part with either one of them. I think they are incredibly valuable to this organization, and wouldn't do so unless I was getting back consistent 5+ WAR players in the deal, because otherwise the value of their contracts and potential production is too much for me to part with.
 

LondonSox

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For all the home town discount Pedey gave the Sox, and he clearly did, I'm not sure the Sox sign that contract today given Betts.
As it is Betts looks like he can play anywhere as a fill in and is a potential for everyday CF if JBJ can't turn it around with the bat.
 
Xander, assuming he gets back to awesome sauce and Betts in back to back years for two middle infield prospects is crazy.
 
I'm more confident than in any other current high prospect that Betts will be ok in the bigs, the power is still questionable, but the BB/K etc, fielding and versatility as well as the speed means IMO he's close to a sure thing to be solid. He may not be an all star etc, but I'd bet a lot on him being being a solid major league player. The upside is obviously more.
 

Apisith

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I would disagree on the Pedroia deal. There's a ton of value in locking someone like him up because now instead of pencilling in Betts at 2B, he can literally become the utility guy who's a star. There's tremendous value in a player like him and the only way you can use him this way is if you already have starters in most positions.

If we hadn't signed Pedroia, Betts would be our nominal 2B of the future and there's no way anyone is talking of him filling in at CF or RF depending on pitching matchups and the health of our players. Betts has the potential to be our Jamesian relief ace, except for position players. You could maximise team wins by deploying him in different positions each day according to the starters you're facing and the health of your players.
 

Apisith

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For all the talk of the Killer Bs, there's a good chance the best B was the one no one paid attention to: Betts.
 

Toe Nash

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benhogan said:
Probably best to keep both guys .
 
Just a note, Mookie has hit for a higher OPS then Xander at Grenville, Salem, Portland and Pawtucket plus Mookie has more speed and probably a better glove.
 
Its time to DFA Kelly Johnson and start Mookie in CF.
I think getting him up NOW and playing him every day may help in avoiding the kind of struggles we're seeing this year from Bogaerts. X played 18 games and some in the playoffs on a first-place team. Betts could get in 40. MLB teams are quick to figure out your weaknesses, but if Betts gets some low-pressure exposure now he has all offseason to work on any holes in his game that arise. Not to mention the position thing. If he wins a starting spot in ST and never looks back, OK, but that seems unlikely.
 
Put another way, it seems it would be a lot more beneficial to the team to get Betts an extra few weeks of MLB time than the off chance that Kelly Johnson goes on a hot streak and gets trade value, or Holt has another BABIP spike and grows his value, or...anything else I can think of doing with that playing time.
 

LondonSox

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I'd agree but one of JBJ gets CF abs for the big team and the other for AAA.
I can't really complain about which way roudn they are doing it, but I think there is a strong case to see what Mookie can do and JBJ might enjoy a chance to reset in AAA? I think it comes down to what they think is best for JBJ