Mookie Betts

Snodgrass'Muff · May 4, 2014

WenZink said:
Since I framed my question in the context of development of a top prospect, I hardly think I'm splitting hairs. Pujols' ability to handle 4 positions as a rookie, does have relevance to a larger issue of deep-depth, but not prospect development. I just don't think the Sox are going to place any more tasks in front of Betts, outside of working on what he's already doing well --hit, run and play 2nd, even if it means he's blocked by Pedroia and they have consider trade options to capitalize on his value.

Again, I don't see anyone suggesting they start using him as a super utility right now. This is the first time the question was asked...

SouthernBoSox said:
So, at what point does positional experimentation happen?

We keep citing Ben Zobrist and how valuable it is having a guy who can play all over, but when is that going to occur.

Right now we have a second baseman who we feel is athletic enough to play other positions.

When might we see Mookie play some third and outfield?

It wasn't a suggestion, it was a question. It was met with people saying that you don't toy with his position until he is ready for a major league position or just before that. Let's call it the Xander treatment.

TheoShmeo said:
I don't think it's binary.

Mookie will still have great trade value for a team thinking of using him at his natural position even after he spends 10-20 games in the outfield in the minors.

If the Sox do that, they can have it both ways. They can test drive him as a possible contributor in Boston and not destroy his potential trade value. Said differently, having a little bit of positonal versatility should not hurt him and, to the contrary, might help as teams might start to see him as a Zobrist type.

This is the only suggestion of him moving around the field in the minors, and it's vague enough that I don't see any way to assume Theo meant right now. In fact, I read this to mean 10-20 games before being called up.

In short, you demand for an example of a prospect being turned into a super-utility while they are still developing is irrelevant since no one is suggesting the Sox do this with Mookie. People mostly talk about it as something to do when he gets to the majors with a few people thinking a few games in Pawtucket before his call up would be the time to start moving him.

In other words, your are pounding on a man made out of straw and are then compounding the problem by refusing to acknowledge what is, perhaps, the most important reason for the Sox to consider using Mookie like this... deep depth.

If you just want people to agree with you, this is not the place to find that. Making up positions to argue against and then telling people they aren't allowed to refer to something when responding doesn't bring any value to the discussion and instead derails it into arguing about meta-level stuff... like this.

If you want to discuss Mookie, try responding to what people are actually saying and open yourself up to the possibility that other perspectives might be as valid or more valid than your own.

radsoxfan · May 4, 2014

WenZink said:
I just don't think the Sox are going to place any more tasks in front of Betts, outside of working on what he's already doing well --hit, run and play 2nd, even if it means he's blocked by Pedroia and they have consider trade options to capitalize on his value.

Of course you can have your opinion, but don't pretend it's irrational or controversial for the Red Sox to groom Betts for positional flexibility early in his major league career. It has been done many times by this organization and others, and will continue to be done by this organization and others. It's really not complicated.

You want Betts to only play 2nd base. We get it. That might be his best position, and maybe another team is willing to value Betts highly enough that a trade makes sense for the Red Sox. But to stubbornly refuse to look at other reasonable alternatives to provide value to the Red Sox is frankly bizarre.

Year of Yaz · May 5, 2014

Let's say that Mookie is a year older and ready for the Zobrist plan. X and Pedroia play every day so few starts would be available at those positions. The Sox appear to want to see what WMB can do at third so that leaves possible platoons at LF and CF which would generate about 40 starts. The other availability would be rest days for Victorino where they could put Mookie in CF and JBJ in RF. So, outside of injury, it seems it would be tough to get him in more than 80 games.

If he can indeed play SS and X moves to third, that will be his future in Boston.

Eddie Jurak · May 5, 2014

Year of Yaz said:
Let's say that Mookie is a year older and ready for the Zobrist plan. X and Pedroia play every day so few starts would be available at those positions. The Sox appear to want to see what WMB can do at third so that leaves possible platoons at LF and CF which would generate about 40 starts. The other availability would be rest days for Victorino where they could put Mookie in CF and JBJ in RF. So, outside of injury, it seems it would be tough to get him in more than 80 games.

If he can indeed play SS and X moves to third, that will be his future in Boston.

Some of these problems are the type that work themselves out. Second basemen generally, and Pedroia specifically, often get hurt. The jury is very much out on whether X will stick at SS or WMB will stick at third. Gomes walks after this season, Victorino is brittle (and not getting any younger), and Bradley's bat is still unproven.

If Betts is an above average hitter (not proven as yet but certainly would not shock anyone if it turns out that way), the Red Sox can find a way to get him into the lineup.

JakeRae · May 5, 2014

Year of Yaz said:
Let's say that Mookie is a year older and ready for the Zobrist plan. X and Pedroia play every day so few starts would be available at those positions. The Sox appear to want to see what WMB can do at third so that leaves possible platoons at LF and CF which would generate about 40 starts. The other availability would be rest days for Victorino where they could put Mookie in CF and JBJ in RF. So, outside of injury, it seems it would be tough to get him in more than 80 games.

If he can indeed play SS and X moves to third, that will be his future in Boston.

The thing is, injuries are inevitable. The Red Sox had a pretty healthy season last year and needed over 1000 PA from the bench/other replacements. That doesn't count platoon at bats and backup catcher at bats, which would bring the number closer to 1500. Finding playing time for one guy who doesn't have a position but can play every position will almost never be a problem.

Year of Yaz · May 5, 2014

My main point is that Rays of past years had some players they didn't mind sitting down 1-2 days a week.

Darnell's Son · May 5, 2014

Mookie went 2/3 with 2 walks, 1 SB(14 on the year), and three runs scored tonight. How long until we've seen enough of him mashing AA pitching and he gets the promotion to Pawtucket?

Apisith · May 5, 2014

Xander got 50+ games at AA before he was moved up so I'm guessing they will evaluate Mookie at the end of May and see then. If he's still OPSing close to 1.000 then he'll come up. If he continues to hit at Pawtucket then he'll come up in September and hopefully play in October. Basically, the Xander timetable worked out for them; a prospect shooting through the system and excelling at every level. I don't see why they'd deviate from this.

TOleary25 · May 6, 2014

Year of Yaz said:
My main point is that Rays of past years had some players they didn't mind sitting down 1-2 days a week.

The Rays used Zobrist wherever the most help was needed, he probably would've spent most of his career in the outfield if the Rays had similar talent at SS and 2B that the Sox do. Who is blocking Mookie from getting at bats in left field next year? Gomes will be gone and so far Nava and Carp have produced little this season. As others have mentioned, these things usually play themselves out and a lot happens within a year.

In the meantime, I don't see any downside in trying him out at different positions to give the Sox more options. He seems up to the task of trying out center/short and has the athleticism. I don't see how left field could be much of a problem for him since Gomes and Nava play there regularly. If he continues hitting like this he'll be above average wherever he plays.

JakeRae · May 6, 2014

On promotion, I think we should expect his run at the OBP streak record to be allowed to run its course before promotion is seriously considered. Waiting an extra week or two so he can get a better shot at having his name in the record books strikes me as a very reasonable course of action. I wouldn't be surprised if he is promoted after his first game where he fails to get on base.

AbbyNoho · May 6, 2014

"If you want to get promoted, Mooks, ya better not reach first!"

Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat · May 6, 2014

JakeRae said:
On promotion, I think we should expect his run at the OBP streak record to be allowed to run its course before promotion is seriously considered. Waiting an extra week or two so he can get a better shot at having his name in the record books strikes me as a very reasonable course of action. I wouldn't be surprised if he is promoted after his first game where he fails to get on base.

I keep wondering if he and Marrero will be promoted as a package. He'll be 24 in August--I have to think they'd like to see him in AAA pretty soon.

ItOnceWasMyLife · May 6, 2014

JakeRae said:
On promotion, I think we should expect his run at the OBP streak record to be allowed to run its course before promotion is seriously considered. Waiting an extra week or two so he can get a better shot at having his name in the record books strikes me as a very reasonable course of action. I wouldn't be surprised if he is promoted after his first game where he fails to get on base.

I hope that's the last thing on their mind.

LogansDad · May 6, 2014

Sports on Earth: http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/74403548/boston-red-sox-second-baseman-mookie-betts-minor-league-top-prospect#!JxWaR

Cuzittt · May 6, 2014

JakeRae said:
On promotion, I think we should expect his run at the OBP streak record to be allowed to run its course before promotion is seriously considered.

It should be noted that this did NOT happen when Kevin Youkilis was chasing Millar. Youkilis was promoted after reaching in 62 consecutive games in Portland. He tied Millar by reaching in his first 9 games in Pawtucket.

keninten · May 6, 2014

Maybe Mookie is the next Pete Rose. He moved around the field and could hit. He`s no HOF but was a pretty good player. :rolling:

Eddie Jurak · May 7, 2014

Streak extended with a leadoff HR.

I have tickets to Saturday afternoon's game - I hope Betts is still there and still has the streak alive.

Stan Papi Was Framed · May 7, 2014

LondonSox said:
1/4 with an RBI and a SB

That's 7 SB in his last 10 games (2 CS but one of those he stole and over did his slide) but no XBH in his last 7.

Mookie showcasing speed this week.

well, he quickly ended the no-XBH streak today...!

Hendu for Kutch · May 7, 2014

A little late to the party, but Jed Lowrie was a guy that was played in several positions as a prospect and gave the team a lot of flexibility when he finally came up. He primarily played SS in the minors but got the occasional game at 2B and even a few at 3B.

It proved useful at the major league level. He's played 28% of his career games at positions other than SS.

Eddie Jurak · May 7, 2014

Hendu for Kutch said:
A little late to the party, but Jed Lowrie was a guy that was played in several positions as a prospect and gave the team a lot of flexibility when he finally came up. He primarily played SS in the minors but got the occasional game at 2B and even a few at 3B.

It proved useful at the major league level. He's played 28% of his career games at positions other than SS.

If I recall correctly, Lowrie was thought of as not having the arm for SS.

MrNewEngland · May 7, 2014

Eddie Jurak said:
If I recall correctly, Lowrie was thought of as not having the arm for SS.

I thought it was his footwork that people considered "clumsy" that made it a question if he's stick at SS.

But I do like the comp and forgot how valuable his flexibility was considered when he was brought up. He was an interesting case.

mabrowndog · May 7, 2014

As of last Friday's update, SoxProspects has vaulted Mookie to the top of their latest rankings. With Xander & JBJ having graduated off the list, Mookie has jumped 9 spots from pre-season #10. Bogaerts had been ranked #1 since July 20, 2012, a reign of 651 days.

BrazilianSoxFan · May 13, 2014

LondonSox said:
The man the legend the mookie this weekend

8th May
1/5 1 R 1 RBI 1k

9th May
1/3 1BB 1R 1K

10th May
Off

11th May
2/4 2BB 2R 1RBI

Last 10 games have been a little more sensible, though still excellent, 317/404/390/794 5SB 0CS 1HR (no other XBH) 6BB/3k 10r
So even here that 800 OPS is undervaluing the production. 2 x BB to K ratio steals, a run a game scored on average, good defense. Basically the power dropped off and the average came off to excellent for a human instead of excellent for a superhero.

The power is what takes him from an excellent prospect to potentially one of the best around. So that's going to be interesting to watch. We know the speed is real, and the defense at 2B seems legit, the BB to K ratio is superb even as the power declined some, so it's more about just how good is this kid. With some pop he's a top 10 prospect in baseball potentially.

I also wonder if teams are starting to pitch around him, which if it were true would support moving him up sooner than later, but given the lineup behind him is hitting and this streak is still going on I don't think they will until the halfway mark.

Any chance he is taking a little bit off the power to keep the on base streak going, trying to hit singles instead of risking warning track shots?

Year of Yaz · May 13, 2014

BrazilianSoxFan said:
Any chance he is taking a little bit off the power to keep the on base streak going, trying to hit singles instead of risking warning track shots?

I don't think anybody puts much value on minor league consecutive records. I'm more intereted in OPS.

Rovin Romine · May 13, 2014

BrazilianSoxFan said:
Any chance he is taking a little bit off the power to keep the on base streak going, trying to hit singles instead of risking warning track shots?

Or are opposing pitchers throwing him more junk?

Snodgrass'Muff · May 13, 2014

Rovin Romine said:
Or are opposing pitchers throwing him more junk?

Or maybe he's not actually a reincarnated Babe Ruth and his numbers are normalizing a tad.

I know... blasphemy.

Year of Yaz · May 14, 2014

Snodgrass'Muff said:
Or maybe he's not actually a reincarnated Babe Ruth and his numbers are normalizing a tad.

I know... blasphemy.

He's all we have. So far, no one else in the entire farm system looks like they could help the parent club this year.

Orel Miraculous · May 14, 2014

Year of Yaz said:
He's all we have. So far, no one else in the entire farm system looks like they could help the parent club this year.

What the hell? So Barnes, De La Rosa, and Webster can take their sub-3.00 ERAs and just fuck off? Cecchini isn't the least bit able to help despite hitting .300 with an OBP over.380 in his first taste of AAA? The system is filled with guys who can and likely will help the parent club this season.

Year of Yaz · May 14, 2014

Orel Miraculous said:
What the hell? So Barnes, De La Rosa, and Webster can take their sub-3.00 ERAs and just fuck off? Cecchini isn't the least bit able to help despite hitting .300 with an OBP over.380 in his first taste of AAA? The system is filled with guys who can and likely will help the parent club this season.

Well not to be negative but Webster, who is a power pitcher, only has 26 Ks in 42 innings. De La Rosa has 20 walk in 42 innings. Barnes also has a low K rate. Cecchini has a .376 slugging average. I'm not saying these guys suck but so far they haven't shown that they are ready for the next level. But long term I am still excited about the Sox farm system.

Rovin Romine · May 14, 2014

Year of Yaz said:
He's all we have. So far, no one else in the entire farm system looks like they could help the parent club this year.

Did I hallucinate the whole Brock Holt thing?

Drek717 · May 14, 2014

Year of Yaz said:
Well not to be negative but Webster, who is a power pitcher, only has 26 Ks in 42 innings. De La Rosa has 20 walk in 42 innings. Barnes also has a low K rate. Cecchini has a .376 slugging average. I'm not saying these guys suck but so far they haven't shown that they are ready for the next level. But long term I am still excited about the Sox farm system.

Every one of those guys showed they where ready for the majors last year and are doing it again this year. They aren't perfect, but then we aren't expecting any of the pitchers to be Pedro Martinez or for Cecchini to be Ted Williams, so what does that really matter?

Webster has historically struck people out. It's pretty much the one skill he did transition up to his ML cup of coffee last season. Any low K numbers now are likely just an aberration.

De La Rosa has had command issue and will probably (like most young pitchers) have to work a certain level of that out at the ML level. Maybe he does it in the bullpen first, maybe not. Depends how Doubie and Buch pitch going forward.

Barnes is only just getting his feet wet in AAA but has had a strong K rate every other level. Little early to write him off.

Hell, I'd say it's too damn early to write off Ranaudo as someone who could help the ML club this year as well. His BB/9 has ballooned this season well beyond his AA or AAA rate from last year. If he gets that sorted back out his 3.88 FIP is likely to only go down.

Workman is also still at AAA and while his stat line there doesn't look great as a starter we know he can relieve at the ML level and last season had some impressive starts for the ML club as well.

Cecchini might also end up as a rich man's Daniel Nava circa 2013 where he's a BA and OBP machine with minimal pop, but that guy is pretty damn valuable. Especially for a Red Sox team having a hard time getting big innings on the board. Guys who get on base fuel big innings, Cecchini gets on base. He could probably help the big club now if the FO was to give up on Middlebrooks, but they've got too much patience for that.

mt8thsw9th · May 14, 2014

mabrowndog said:
As of last Friday's update, SoxProspects has vaulted Mookie to the top of their latest rankings.

They didn't even have him ranked until after the 2013 season, and jumping him from 10 to 1 shows as much just how badly they whiffed on evaluating him as it does how much he's exploded this year.

Year of Yaz · May 14, 2014

Drek717 said:
Every one of those guys showed they where ready for the majors last year and are doing it again this year. They aren't perfect, but then we aren't expecting any of the pitchers to be Pedro Martinez or for Cecchini to be Ted Williams, so what does that really matter?

Webster has historically struck people out. It's pretty much the one skill he did transition up to his ML cup of coffee last season. Any low K numbers now are likely just an aberration.

De La Rosa has had command issue and will probably (like most young pitchers) have to work a certain level of that out at the ML level. Maybe he does it in the bullpen first, maybe not. Depends how Doubie and Buch pitch going forward.

Barnes is only just getting his feet wet in AAA but has had a strong K rate every other level. Little early to write him off.

Hell, I'd say it's too damn early to write off Ranaudo as someone who could help the ML club this year as well. His BB/9 has ballooned this season well beyond his AA or AAA rate from last year. If he gets that sorted back out his 3.88 FIP is likely to only go down.

Workman is also still at AAA and while his stat line there doesn't look great as a starter we know he can relieve at the ML level and last season had some impressive starts for the ML club as well.

Cecchini might also end up as a rich man's Daniel Nava circa 2013 where he's a BA and OBP machine with minimal pop, but that guy is pretty damn valuable. Especially for a Red Sox team having a hard time getting big innings on the board. Guys who get on base fuel big innings, Cecchini gets on base. He could probably help the big club now if the FO was to give up on Middlebrooks, but they've got too much patience for that.

I'm also optimistic about all those players but Betts is the guy rocketing up the prospect rankings. Yes, OBP is important but the Sox currently rank third in the ML in OBP but 16th in runs scored. They don't run the bases particularly well so they could use some power to develope in the minors.

pokey_reese · May 15, 2014

With another HR today he is officially back on a tear, with his triple slash line over the last 10 games essentially mirroring his season line (.401/.467/.619 season vs .390/.490/.585 last 10), with an OPS of 1.075 during that time.

Cesar Crespo · May 15, 2014

At some point, the sample size is big enough to stop questioning the power. I think Mookie should be untouchable.

Most people assumed Cecchini would eventually hit for power. Mookie does and people question it.

I was thinking of a comp and Craig Biggio would be it.

Fishy1 · May 15, 2014

In case you're looking for fap material, milb.com has a video page now (maybe it's not new.)

Here's Mookie's page, including the home run from today. Happy Ookie Mookie.

EDIT: Excuse me, here's the home run from today: http://www.milb.com/multimedia/vpp.jsp?content_id=32893309&sid=milb

foulkehampshire · May 15, 2014

That's not a cheap homerun

ALiveH · May 16, 2014

if he keeps going like this might start thinking about promoting him in 2-3 weeks to AAA (poor Ryan Roberts), then if he tears that up, get him a cup of coffee in September.

LahoudOrBillyC · May 16, 2014

Before he joins the Red Sox he is going to have to start playing another position. I am not suggesting he do that now, I am suggesting that his inevitable switch is going to be the sign we will need to see to get a sense of how soon the Red Sox see him in the majors.

Darnell's Son · May 16, 2014

His jersey in that home run clip looks two sizes too big.

Eddie Jurak · May 16, 2014

LahoudOrBillyC said:
Before he joins the Red Sox he is going to have to start playing another position. I am not suggesting he do that now, I am suggesting that his inevitable switch is going to be the sign we will need to see to get a sense of how soon the Red Sox see him in the majors.

Absolutely. It would not shock me at all to see him on the 2013 Bogaerts plan. Promoted to Pawtucket, some work at other positions, and to the majors as a utility player in August. If he can run in the majors, maybe he is also the team's Quinton Berry in the playoffs.

IdiotKicker · May 16, 2014

His ticket to the majors this season is in the OF. While SS and 3B may not look great right now, with young guys there, I don't see the Sox looking to move away from them right now. This team has a serious need for corner OFs this year, and it's not a particularly hard position to learn, especially if you want to stick him in LF. You can move him to a long-term position next season, but that is where he can help the team now if he comes up later on.

smastroyin · May 16, 2014

I think the reason people question his power is that swing. Luckily for Red Sox fans we have a good object lesson in Pedroia, who had similar tendencies in the minors. But his swing is big and looping and he seems to require a lot of upper body movement to generate the torque to get the bat head around. Obviously he has accumulated a bunch of power so there's no point arguing whether it is "real" It's real. The question some people will have is whether major league pitchers will be able to exploit all the timing he needs. And of course once he has a 20 game slump in the majors all the usual suspects will claim the book is closed and he's not really a major leaguer with that swing.

ALiveH · May 16, 2014

In the BH article, it said Betts has already been getting extra (non-game) practice at SS and CF and used to play those positions before he moved to 2B. Obviously, those positions are blocked too, but the skills should translate well to just about any other IF or OF position.

DJnVa · May 16, 2014

Fishy1 said:
In case you're looking for fap material, milb.com has a video page now (maybe it's not new.)

Here's Mookie's page, including the home run from today. Happy Ookie Mookie.

EDIT: Excuse me, here's the home run from today: http://www.milb.com/multimedia/vpp.jsp?content_id=32893309&sid=milb

Did that announcer pronounce his first name like "Moakie"?

Rovin Romine · May 16, 2014

ALiveH said:
In the BH article, it said Betts has already been getting extra (non-game) practice at SS and CF and used to play those positions before he moved to 2B. Obviously, those positions are blocked too, but the skills should translate well to just about any other IF or OF position.

Not really since Betts can sub all 3 positions giving people off-days (assuming he can play those positions adequately) and/or JBJ can shift to RF, and/or Xander can shift to 3B.

Much too early for this kind of talk though.

Mookie Betts

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