Momentum growing among GM/owners for the DH in the NL

soxhop411

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“@dgoold: Mozeliak says there is ”more momentum“ in discussions with GMs and owners for the DH coming into the National League. #MLB #cardinals”


About time. I always found it stupid how the NL and the AL abide by two different rules.
 
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Curll

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Jul 13, 2005
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The logical thing to do is to allow the home team to decide if they want to use the DH for that day's game. Gives an extra 'home field' advantage, and provides even MORE strategical options for managers.
 

NoXInNixon

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The logical thing to do is to allow the home team to decide if they want to use the DH for that day's game. Gives an extra 'home field' advantage, and provides even MORE strategical options for managers.
I can't think of a single example in sports where the home team has any say in choosing what the rules of the game will be. Not to say I don't like the idea in theory, but there's virtually no precedent for a rule like this.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It would be interesting if someone tried to figure out whether the DH was a net benefit or cost to the owners. My guess would be a net cost - since it keeps older, more costly players in the league longer but there are attendance and merchandising benefits to allowing players to chase milestones (like Papi).
 

santadevil

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10 person lineup with DH and pitcher
Um, no.

You either have the pitchers hit, or you don't.
I like the differences between the two leagues, but it only makes sense to have the rules the same, especially with increased interleague play.
 
Dec 21, 2015
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The logical thing to do is to allow the home team to decide if they want to use the DH for that day's game. Gives an extra 'home field' advantage, and provides even MORE strategical options for managers.
How on earth is giving one team in a supposedly fair contest a structural advantage (an option has value whether you use it or not) the "logical" thing to do?

I mean, I support the idea of having the DH in both leagues, because seeing pitchers hit isn't entertaining. I could see an argument that simply having an 8-man lineup would be just as rational a solution as a DH. But what you're proposing would make a farce out of fair competition. MLB already has the lowest home-team winning percentage of any major sport, which is a testament to how elegantly its rules are designed and how honest and professional its umpires are (Angel Hernandez aside...). Why would you bastardize that balance, for the sole sake of giving managers some more things to tweak?
 
Dec 21, 2015
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OK, revised: it's not un-ironically entertaining. Especially not 3x / game, day after day.

Won't catch me gainsaying God in these parts.
 

DJnVa

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The rules should be the same for both leagues. I've grown up watching the DH so it doesn't offend any of my delicate sensibilities.
 

timlinin8th

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OK, revised: it's not un-ironically entertaining. Especially not 3x / game, day after day.

Won't catch me gainsaying God in these parts.

Its not entertaining in the competetive sense. Two on, two out, pitchers spot coming up. If the pitcher is staying in the game the odds of something exciting happening is practically nil, and if the pitcher get pulled, the manager is designating a hitter to hit for the pitcher. Its basically an admission that letting pitchers hit is a bad idea.

Don't even get me started on the double switch, which fans of NL ball praise like its genius but its one of the de facto standard moves managers in the NL make, all to avoid having the pitcher hit (which again, IS an admission that pitchers shouldn't be hitting).
 

Adrian's Dome

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Its not entertaining in the competetive sense. Two on, two out, pitchers spot coming up. If the pitcher is staying in the game the odds of something exciting happening is practically nil, and if the pitcher get pulled, the manager is designating a hitter to hit for the pitcher. Its basically an admission that letting pitchers hit is a bad idea.

Don't even get me started on the double switch, which fans of NL ball praise like its genius but its one of the de facto standard moves managers in the NL make, all to avoid having the pitcher hit (which again, IS an admission that pitchers shouldn't be hitting).
Not to mention if you have a pitcher that actually can hit (rare, but does happen,) you still have the option of batting them in the DH slot, no?
 

Snoop Soxy Dogg

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I mean, I support the idea of having the DH in both leagues, because seeing pitchers hit isn't entertaining.
Well, Buster Olney says he loves to see the pitcher hit, that (and the "strategery") is why he's against the DH in the NL.

I don't really understand it myself, but maybe I'm missing something.
 

SydneySox

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As the recently departed 69 year old british entertainer Severus Snape used to sing... Ch-ch-ch-changes (are impossible for the old guard to ever accept).
 

soxfan121

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This will never happen because the stupid people who run MLB are still stupid.
 

derekson

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This will never happen because the stupid people who run MLB are still stupid.
I'll be shocked if it doesn't happen in the next decade, and possibly as soon as the next CBA.

Ignoring aesthetic arguments, teams invest too much money in frontline pitchers now to risk them getting hurt at bat or running the bases.

Honestly it's massively overdue; pitchers are the only position where there is literally zero selectivity based on offensive ability. For any other position you can have a bat good enough to carry poor defense, but there is no level of bat that will push a team to start a poor pitcher over a better one.
 

mauf

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I liked the NL rules back when a fair number of pitchers could reach base 15-20% of the time, but now that every other U.S. league above high-school level has the DH, watching pitchers hit is brutal. And I think most of the NL purists will grudgingly accept the change when it comes, because the urgent situation seems to give the AL a consistent advantage in interleague play.
 

Awesome Fossum

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Not to mention if you have a pitcher that actually can hit (rare, but does happen,) you still have the option of batting them in the DH slot, no?
I'm pretty sure that if a pitcher hits, the team surrenders the right to have a DH. When the day comes that both leagues get on the same page, I would support changing that portion of the rule to your understanding. It would rarely, if ever, be used, but it would be fun in a "dropkicks are still allowed in the NFL" sort of way.
 

grimshaw

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I can just see Zack Greinke staring down the manager who dares bat Yasmany Thomas instead of him every fifth day.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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Yep .. The whole notion of losing strategy with a DH is pretty silly. Having your pitcher bunt is not strategy. the only instance of it you lose is the decision whether or not to pinch hit for the pitcher - or sacrifice the offense because he's still pitching well. And even that is pretty marginal these days given the presence of power bullpens.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Well, Buster Olney says he loves to see the pitcher hit, that (and the "strategery") is why he's against the DH in the NL.

I don't really understand it myself, but maybe I'm missing something.
Bill James addressed this some 30 years ago, in the original Historical Baseball Abstract (I'm quoting someone else's quotation of James here, so errors are possible):

What the DH rule actually does...is to eliminate from the game a series of forced, obvious moves, which involve in fact no option on the part of either manager, and thus no strategy. You've got a .113 hitter at the plate. A runner on first, and nobody out in the fourth, and you have to bunt don't you? Where's the strategy? With a DH up there at least you can do something. You're down four runs in the seventh with the pitcher leading off, and you have to pinch hit for him, don't you? What's strategic about that? The DH rule saves the pinch hitters, and thus in effect makes the roster larger. As such it creates, not eliminates, strategic options for American League managers.
I've never seen a satisfactory answer to this.
 

derekson

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Bill James addressed this some 30 years ago, in the original Historical Baseball Abstract (I'm quoting someone else's quotation of James here, so errors are possible):



I've never seen a satisfactory answer to this.
AL managers also have to decide when to pull pitchers based on how tired they are more often. NL managers frequently get to just pull the pitcher without a thought because he's due to bat in the 7th or 8th inning.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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A compromise I've been suggesting for decades if everyone can't agree to having a DH

You can pinch hit for your pitcher any time you want without having to remove him. But if the pinch hitter doesn't go into the game, he's done for the day, just like if he hits for any position player.

That allows strategy to decide when to use a pinch hitter for the pitcher, knowing once he's used, he's gone.
 

hbk72777

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Bill James addressed this some 30 years ago, in the original Historical Baseball Abstract (I'm quoting someone else's quotation of James here, so errors are possible):



I've never seen a satisfactory answer to this.
I was always on the fence about Bill James, but now I love the guy.
 

Rasputin

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The people who think the DH requires less strategy are the people who think double switches are advanced math. Pitchers can't hit for shit and on the rare occasion when they can, who the fuck cares if you lose the DH, you've still got your DH sitting around to pinch hit at precisely the right time.
 

tims4wins

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AL managers also have to decide when to pull pitchers based on how tired they are more often. NL managers frequently get to just pull the pitcher without a thought because he's due to bat in the 7th or 8th inning.

Great point that I hadn't read before
A compromise I've been suggesting for decades if everyone can't agree to having a DH

You can pinch hit for your pitcher any time you want without having to remove him. But if the pinch hitter doesn't go into the game, he's done for the day, just like if he hits for any position player.

That allows strategy to decide when to use a pinch hitter for the pitcher, knowing once he's used, he's gone.
Love this!
 

geoduck no quahog

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I'm all for the DH, but there is a little bit of strategy - say your team is down 1-0 in the 7th and your starter is pitching great. The #8 man gets on base with 1 out. You either bunt, hoping it's 2 outs with a runner on 2nd or you pull the pitcher, pray for a pinch hit and hope his replacement doesn't fuck everything up. If you pull the starter and the PH pops up, and the replacement pitcher gives up a run - you fucked up. If you leave the pitcher in and nobody scores, and the starter gives up a homerun next inning before being pulled - you fucked up. It's still all stupid to me.
 

DJnVa

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If the argument for "some pitchers can hit" is ONLY Micah Owings, who hasn't played in the major leagues since 2012, has all of 200 or so ABs in his career and hit about .200 for the last 4 seasons of his career, I'm not sure I really see that as a strong argument.
 

Rice4HOF

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There's nothing inherently wrong with pitchers not having to hit. Stuff like this happens in every sport. I don't buy the "every other player has to hit and play defense, so the pitcher should too" argument. Hockey has the same thing. The goalie is different than the rest of the players. He's not taking shots in a shootout. Maybe football shouldn't allow substitutions either? If Tom Brady wants to stay in the game he'll have to play linebacker while the other team has the ball. Makes as much sense as pitchers having to hit. The only reason pitchers hitting doesn't sound illogical is because that's the way it used to be, and it's hard to get over inertial reasoning. /end rant
 

mt8thsw9th

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There's nothing inherently wrong with pitchers not having to hit. Stuff like this happens in every sport. I don't buy the "every other player has to hit and play defense, so the pitcher should too" argument. Hockey has the same thing. The goalie is different than the rest of the players. He's not taking shots in a shootout. Maybe football shouldn't allow substitutions either? If Tom Brady wants to stay in the game he'll have to play linebacker while the other team has the ball. Makes as much sense as pitchers having to hit. The only reason pitchers hitting doesn't sound illogical is because that's the way it used to be, and it's hard to get over inertial reasoning. /end rant
Whoever scores the touchdown has to kick the extra point!
 

kazuneko

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The logical thing to do is to allow the home team to decide if they want to use the DH for that day's game. Gives an extra 'home field' advantage, and provides even MORE strategical options for managers.
This "strategy" this would lead to would be pretty unexciting and unfairly penalize certain teams and certain players. David Ortiz, for example, might never play another away game. I mean, is there a single team in the league that would actually choose to face him?
 

glennhoffmania

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This "strategy" this would lead to would be pretty unexciting and unfairly penalize certain teams and certain players. David Ortiz, for example, might never play another away game. I mean, is there a single team in the league that would actually choose to face him?
Teams with established DHs, like NY, Toronto, Detroit, or Texas, would probably choose to use a DH. But otherwise, yeah it's a pretty silly idea. They need to play under uniform rules throughout the league and since there's almost zero chance of eliminating the DH in the AL the only option is to add it to the NL. While I understand why some fans are against the idea I don't see why NL teams wouldn't prefer to have the DH option.
 

Adrian's Dome

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If the argument for "some pitchers can hit" is ONLY Micah Owings, who hasn't played in the major leagues since 2012, has all of 200 or so ABs in his career and hit about .200 for the last 4 seasons of his career, I'm not sure I really see that as a strong argument.
I brought him up simply as an example and everyone else could clearly see that, but hey, continue.
 

DJnVa

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I brought him up simply as an example and everyone else could clearly see that, but hey, continue.
Yeah, that wasn't a shot at you, it was a shot at the fact that people think it's exciting to watch pitchers hit and especially that Micah Owings dude, but hey, continue.
 

soxhop411

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“@DPLennon: Manfred also said NL adopting DH is gaining momentum. Expect it to be addressed in upcoming CBA, so could be for ‘17 season. #mlb”