Liverpool 23-24: The Long Klopp Goodbye

teddykgb

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That wouldn’t make any sense. Such a stylistic difference in play and it doesn’t make much sense to need to rejig the roster for a manager who hasn’t done much in so long. Liverpool should be looking to find the manager playing most stylistically like Klopp imo.

Thinking about it it’s kind of weird and unique that there aren’t a ton of Klopp clones out there. There are all sorts of Pep clones out there emphasizing possession tactics and positional play you really don’t have a lot of managers out there who are playing a high line fast transition kind of style. I suppose to some extent everyone is playing that way these days and maybe it’s less identifiable as a style than positional play or low blocks are but it’s kind of strange that in my head I can’t really think of a manager who seems natural. Maybe Ange but that’s probably impossible
 

PedroSpecialK

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Is Pep Ljinders definitely leaving with Klopp? Why wouldn’t FSG try to convince him to stay?
IIRC they tried a shift to Ljindersball early last season and the results were... uninspiring to say the least. Not to say he can't / won't become a good top-flight manager in his own right, but I would be surprised if they went directly to him at this point. He also has probably outgrown a deputy position at the club
 

nayrbrey

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Fabrizio reports they have contacted Feyenoord manager Arne Slot, no clue on his style or fit.


Liverpool have made contact with Feyenoord manager Arne Slot!

Slot has already had direct contact with Liverpool as potential candidate in the shortlist to replace Klopp.

There’s one more meeting scheduled to discuss with Slot as one of the main candidates; talks are now in stand-by with Amorim, expected to resume.
Edit: the Athletic has info on his playing style.

Slot will most commonly set up with a 4-2-3-1 formation in possession, using a midfield double pivot to progress centrally through the first line of pressure. Beyond the high-possession, high-pressing, clinical attacking football, the 45-year-old has shown that he can achieve success without frivolous spending which is a trait that will be attractive to FSG and their strategic approach.
 
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67YAZ

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Fabrizio reports they have contacted Feyenoord manager Arne Slot, no clue on his style or fit.




Edit: the Athletic has info on his playing style.

Slot will most commonly set up with a 4-2-3-1 formation in possession, using a midfield double pivot to progress centrally through the first line of pressure. Beyond the high-possession, high-pressing, clinical attacking football, the 45-year-old has shown that he can achieve success without frivolous spending which is a trait that will be attractive to FSG and their strategic approach.
I think this is a good style fit - the squad won’t need anywhere near as much turnover to play in Slot’s style vs Amorim’s.

Another key feature of Slot’s tactics is using the keeper to circulate the ball when in possession. Feynoord will pass the ball back deep to the CBs and have the keeper come out 40yds to try to pull an organized defensive out of its shape. This would Alison more directly involved…and probably lead to a horrific goal or two per season where Alison gets intercepted/dispossessed and the opponents gets a freebie.

Slot turned down Spurs last summer after seemingly working out all but the last few details. He’s a strong character and isn’t going to sign on unless he’s 100% satisfied with contract and arrangements.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Slot has done an impressive job with Feyenoord over the last few seasons and plays a very front-footed brand of football. Just hope you don't end up drawing Roma in European play (has been knocked out by them three years running).

My general sense is that the jump from the Eredivisie to the PL is a tough one. Managers making that transition have had a fairly checkered history recently (Ten Hag, De Boer, Koeman did well with Soton but his Everton stint went very bad eventually), although the sample size is small and I wouldn't read too much into it. But the Eredivisie really just isn't a very good league anymore, especially in terms of the overall athleticism of the players and the intensity of the game. The quality of the Dutch player pool isn't what it used to be and for whatever reason the league has been supplanted by others as an initial stop for big talents from elsewhere. The best players Slot has managed are probably Orkun Kokcu, Luis Sinisterra, Tyrell Malacia, and Santiago Gimenez - guys who are basically either replacement level PL players or would probably fit that category if they came to England. That says a lot about Slot's ability to get results from a limited squad at Feyenoord but managing the likes of Salah, VVD, Trent, etc is a whole different world.

I definitely wouldn't write Slot off but I think his tactics are less important than how he would manage the other aspects of the adjustment involved with this kind of move.
 

67YAZ

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Slot has done an impressive job with Feyenoord over the last few seasons and plays a very front-footed brand of football. Just hope you don't end up drawing Roma in European play (has been knocked out by them three years running).

My general sense is that the jump from the Eredivisie to the PL is a tough one. Managers making that transition have had a fairly checkered history recently (Ten Hag, De Boer, Koeman did well with Soton but his Everton stint went very bad eventually), although the sample size is small and I wouldn't read too much into it. But the Eredivisie really just isn't a very good league anymore, especially in terms of the overall athleticism of the players and the intensity of the game. The quality of the Dutch player pool isn't what it used to be and for whatever reason the league has been supplanted by others as an initial stop for big talents from elsewhere. The best players Slot has managed are probably Orkun Kokcu, Luis Sinisterra, Tyrell Malacia, and Santiago Gimenez - guys who are basically either replacement level PL players or would probably fit that category if they came to England. That says a lot about Slot's ability to get results from a limited squad at Feyenoord but managing the likes of Salah, VVD, Trent, etc is a whole different world.

I definitely wouldn't write Slot off but I think his tactics are less important than how he would manage the other aspects of the adjustment involved with this kind of move.
The Eredivsie is also very top heavy and far more attack-minded than the EPL. Grinding out points at Luton is much harder than Valendam.

But it's also the demands on the manager's time, the constant attention, the fan base endlessly arguing every decision, fighting on 4 fronts each season, the whole squad playing during international breaks, dealing with players who are business in-and-of-themselves, the razor thin performance margins.

That said, great managers come through all pathways...Pep was a life-long Barca man who only did a season with the B team before taking on the big job. Arteta was Pep's right hand for 4 years. Carlo went from Reggiana to Parma to Juve, where he got fired after 2 seasons before finding glory with Milan. Klopp's path from Mainz to Dortmund to Liverpool seems ideal in the light of his results, but there's too many variables to ever really predict how things will go.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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That said, great managers come through all pathways...Pep was a life-long Barca man who only did a season with the B team before taking on the big job. Arteta was Pep's right hand for 4 years. Carlo went from Reggiana to Parma to Juve, where he got fired after 2 seasons before finding glory with Milan. Klopp's path from Mainz to Dortmund to Liverpool seems ideal in the light of his results, but there's too many variables to ever really predict how things will go.
A different era but Wenger and Fergie are also great examples in this category...managing at Nagoya Grampus Eight and Aberdeen directly before coming to England.
 

67YAZ

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A different era but Wenger and Fergie are also great examples in this category...managing at Nagoya Grampus Eight and Aberdeen directly before coming to England.
I think FSG's theory is that with Edwards and his team in place, the manager can minimize everything that's not tactics and man management. We'll see how well it works out in practice...
 
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67YAZ

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Had to save this match for tonight…thinking I might just watch the Celtics instead.
 

67YAZ

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Had to save this match for tonight…thinking I might just watch the Celtics instead.
Should have watched Liverpool instead.

Whoever comes in next is going to have to devise a system of play and training that allows the squad to play 60 competitive matches a season (plus all the international minutes the players put on). Heavy Metal Football might be a dead genre.

Liverpool reportedly put in a €9m bid to Feynoord, which was immediately rejected. Nothing signed with Slot, other irons still in the fire. But Slot is the first target that FSG is negotiating for.

Also, rumors that the club will jump to Adidas when the Nike contract ends in 2025.
 

SocrManiac

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The Adidas mockups have been absolute fire.

A key difference has been post-AFCON Salah, just like always. The little magical touches that get him out of trouble and sneak the ball into the back of the net just aren't there. From Reddit, the current 2024 record sits at: without Salah: 13W 1D 1L, with: 2W 3D 4L He's not the sole factor, but it's a major one.

Darwin had the opportunity to make this very different. It's hard to see how Liverpool can succeed with a center forward that doesn't convert chances like that. He even looked up and saw where Pickford was before unceremoniously blasting it as the center of his chest.

If you go right down the list, the team was universally awful. Individuals that were playing out of their minds are utterly cooked right now. Hang on to Europe, celebrate Klopp, and let's get to work.
 

teddykgb

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Should have watched Liverpool instead.

Whoever comes in next is going to have to devise a system of play and training that allows the squad to play 60 competitive matches a season (plus all the international minutes the players put on). Heavy Metal Football might be a dead genre.

Liverpool reportedly put in a €9m bid to Feynoord, which was immediately rejected. Nothing signed with Slot, other irons still in the fire. But Slot is the first target that FSG is negotiating for.

Also, rumors that the club will jump to Adidas when the Nike contract ends in 2025.
This goes back and maybe counter to my post above about similar managers but I think what we see among clubs that have been changing their manager a lot is that the turnover required ends up being so massive that it can choke a club up for years. The title run and Liverpool fans general ability to be so bombastic has created this weird feeling of disappointment at the end but if Klopp weren’t leaving this would have been an outrageously successful season for Liverpool, imo. You bedded in multiple youth players who looked up to the very top of the Prem standards. So often it is hard to get players like this regular time and they get occasional emergency and sub appearances but your youth movement kept pace over an extended duration. Having largely fixed the midfield problem you had and found several squad player options, you’re really just needing a little health and to find a forward player or two who can more reliably score. No easy feat to be sure but if you weren’t looking at replacing Klopp I’d be incredibly bullish on your ability to push on from a really strong platform built this season. Basically I think Liverpool started to turn the trajectory arrow back up this year and almost rode that momentum right back to the top.

But like let’s say you went and got a more possession based manager like De Zerbi. I suppose you assume MacAllister is fine. Anyone will make Van Dijk work no matter what. But does the midfield you rebuilt still work on the whole? Do you have the right attackers to play in much less space and outside of transition? Does Trent get neutered if he doesn’t have as many opportunities to hit early long balls at back lines in disarray? It could upset the entire balance and trigger one of those landslides of player movement and coach firing
 

67YAZ

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This goes back and maybe counter to my post above about similar managers but I think what we see among clubs that have been changing their manager a lot is that the turnover required ends up being so massive that it can choke a club up for years. The title run and Liverpool fans general ability to be so bombastic has created this weird feeling of disappointment at the end but if Klopp weren’t leaving this would have been an outrageously successful season for Liverpool, imo. You bedded in multiple youth players who looked up to the very top of the Prem standards. So often it is hard to get players like this regular time and they get occasional emergency and sub appearances but your youth movement kept pace over an extended duration. Having largely fixed the midfield problem you had and found several squad player options, you’re really just needing a little health and to find a forward player or two who can more reliably score. No easy feat to be sure but if you weren’t looking at replacing Klopp I’d be incredibly bullish on your ability to push on from a really strong platform built this season. Basically I think Liverpool started to turn the trajectory arrow back up this year and almost rode that momentum right back to the top.

But like let’s say you went and got a more possession based manager like De Zerbi. I suppose you assume MacAllister is fine. Anyone will make Van Dijk work no matter what. But does the midfield you rebuilt still work on the whole? Do you have the right attackers to play in much less space and outside of transition? Does Trent get neutered if he doesn’t have as many opportunities to hit early long balls at back lines in disarray? It could upset the entire balance and trigger one of those landslides of player movement and coach firing
Your point about bedding youth is well taken, but this squad has very visibly hit a mental and physical wall. There’s a lot of factors at play - major injuries to key players, AFCON, key players logging heavy international minutes, and the style of play. Even if Klopp was staying, there would need to be changes in strategy and likely some squad turnover (whither Salah?).

Maybe it’s a training and medical staff issue. I’ve read average times where injury stats are a key metric in the manager search. I don’t know what that looks like in detail, but it does seem to indicate that Edwards et al understand the late-Klopp era has been hampered by physical issues.

Slot, while closer to Pep in his tactics, isn’t so far off from Klopp as to necessitate a squad overhaul. Amorim would have been a much bigger lift since Liverpool doesn’t have anyone who can play wingback in his preferred style.
 

teddykgb

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Your point about bedding youth is well taken, but this squad has very visibly hit a mental and physical wall. There’s a lot of factors at play - major injuries to key players, AFCON, key players logging heavy international minutes, and the style of play. Even if Klopp was staying, there would need to be changes in strategy and likely some squad turnover (whither Salah?).

Maybe it’s a training and medical staff issue. I’ve read average times where injury stats are a key metric in the manager search. I don’t know what that looks like in detail, but it does seem to indicate that Edwards et al understand the late-Klopp era has been hampered by physical issues.

Slot, while closer to Pep in his tactics, isn’t so far off from Klopp as to necessitate a squad overhaul. Amorim would have been a much bigger lift since Liverpool doesn’t have anyone who can play wingback in his preferred style.
Yeah I guess I just don’t agree. It’s your team so I’ll largely defer but as an outside observer I don’t see a team out of ideas or with a mental wall problem, I just see a team who always thrived on creating chaos and then punishing you in that chaos still creating that chaos but struggling to convert enough of it into goals. That Mane and Salah duo were so deadly — Mane could be profligate but he also pounced on so much. If Darwin were just a little more reliable or if Jota could stay healthy (which may be impossible) then I think a lot more snaps into play. Klopps Liverpool always put you in a vice of their creation. High press and high follow up to the press which encourages you to take chances forward because that’s where the space is but they got you to play a little too quick for your own good and then you’re out of position and scrambling to recover and Salah or Mane just tortured you while you tried to get men back. You’re just missing the torturers
 

67YAZ

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Yeah I guess I just don’t agree. It’s your team so I’ll largely defer but as an outside observer I don’t see a team out of ideas or with a mental wall problem, I just see a team who always thrived on creating chaos and then punishing you in that chaos still creating that chaos but struggling to convert enough of it into goals. That Mane and Salah duo were so deadly — Mane could be profligate but he also pounced on so much. If Darwin were just a little more reliable or if Jota could stay healthy (which may be impossible) then I think a lot more snaps into play. Klopps Liverpool always put you in a vice of their creation. High press and high follow up to the press which encourages you to take chances forward because that’s where the space is but they got you to play a little too quick for your own good and then you’re out of position and scrambling to recover and Salah or Mane just tortured you while you tried to get men back. You’re just missing the torturers
Kind words from Teddy are always welcome.

The finishing has been a major problem, especially as of late. Per Opta, Liverpool are creating more chances than ever under Klopp but the conversion rate is among the 3rd worst of his tenure.

81522

Of course, today we've got VVD calling out the team for not taking Everton seriously. I can see why his frustrated - he's getting put on islands too often by the press and looking like last season's VVD. It jibes with Klopp's comment from last week about pressing at 80%. There's a lot going on here.
 

67YAZ

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Salah still hot under the collar post-match. Mane had this kind of relationship with Klopp - the occasional outburst followed by everything getting back to normal. Bug I can’t remember Mo like this.

My guess is that Mo was upset to not start this match and when Klopp said something like “go get the winner,” it was enough to set Mo off. The squad is visibly and verbally frustrated. Not how any of us imagined the Klopp Days to end.

View: https://twitter.com/fabrizioromano/status/1784224818004435292?s=46&t=GfuLFvTYcOxcFiCZjyIYZw
 

67YAZ

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Hmmmm…Liverpool leak from unnamed sources that they expect Salah to stay this summer. Sounds like either damage control or early positioning against a cut rate bid (Saudis or my dark horse, PSG).

Hell, it’s probably both.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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The real fear is that he plays out his contract and leaves on a free.

So they either have to resign him (at a figure which reflects his stature if not, sadly his future abilities) or sell him to Saudi.

If I’m Edwards EtAl - and they get a decent £100m plus) offer - then I think they should sell him. Leaving on a free is a complete calamity.
 

Time to Mo Vaughn

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The real fear is that he plays out his contract and leaves on a free.

So they either have to resign him (at a figure which reflects his stature if not, sadly his future abilities) or sell him to Saudi.

If I’m Edwards EtAl - and they get a decent £100m plus) offer - then I think they should sell him. Leaving on a free is a complete calamity.
I actually thought they should have sold him last year if the rumors of 150m+ from the Saudi league were accurate. Don't know what the offers will look like this year with him turning 32 in a month. Agreed that if they can still get an offer above 100m then it's a no brainer. Especially with a new manager it seems to me like Liverpool should look at next year as a quick rebuild year and try to get younger while taking some lumps with new players and new tactics. I think the same with Van Dijk.
 

67YAZ

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Despite the frustrations of the past month, Liverpool have secure Champions League football for next season.
 

67YAZ

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The 4 man swap completely changed the game in Villa’s favour. Liverpool had been dominating the midfield up to that point but their replacements were invisible. Oh - in other news Darwin was offside .. again - I think I’ve had it with him.
going to be a very, very interesting summer with the club probably having to work their scouting & recruiting process quicker than they have in recent years with an all “new” upper management and coaching crew.

Reading more and watching more matches, Slot uses the 4-2-3-1 to pack the middle of the pitch and create room on the flanks for wingers to go 1v1 & fullbacks to bomb forward. As a Dutchie, no doubt Slot can work in a 4-3-3, but as currently composed, does the squad have too many 8s and not enough 6s for Slot’s approach? A well rounded 10?

There’s already talk about going after a winger in the Diaz/Salah mold.

And I’m not sure about the fullback situation. Robbo has a lot of miles on his tires, and Tsimikas is a backup. Trent, of course, is one of a kind - a blessing and a curse. Wouldn’t be surprised if a fullback move happens.
 
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