Life is a Beach - Summer 2023 Transfer

Zososoxfan

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Nick Kaufman said:
Everyone loosened domestic players quotas because of the Bosman ruling that allowed free movement for EU players within EU. And while the first division wasn't as popular as it is today, when I was growing up it Greece in the 80s and we had two tv stations, the only match I could watch live on the whole weekend was an English first division game on Saturday afternoon; not even Greek league games were shown live back then. Then you would get highlights from foreign leagues on sunday nights and the English first division was the first.

Oh and btw, the English division had an advantage over others, because the average European team could only have two foreigners, while English sides could have Welsh, Scots etc. They may have been able to sign commonwealth players too; I am not sure for example whether Bruce Gropelaar who was South African players a foreigner or a domestic player with Liverpool.

What happened IMO is that the EPL was a rebrand that was accompanied with stadium upgrades, an infusion of new TV money and free player movement (like everywhere). the difference was that the English league was the most popular abroad to begin with so it was always the first league to sell their TV rights abroad, so they got the best deals, which led to better players, which in turn improved to more people abroad following it, more merchandizing being sold, more money into the game, better players being signed, which in turn led to better TV deals and so on.

Basically a small initial advantage snowballed into a larger advantage over the rest of the world.
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But Bosman wasn't until 95.

And maybe you're right that the EPL was more popular as a league, but growing up in the 90s the Italian league was considered by far the best, and the best clubs were considered to be Milan, Juve, Barca, Madrid, Ajax (it really doesn't get better than mid 90s Ajax for nostalgia), and United.

Looking back to 90s TM data, EPL clubs started spending alongside Italian clubs (+ Bayern, Barca, Madrid, etc.) around the time of the EPL founding, were firmly in the mix of biggest spenders by 94-95, but surprisingly EPL clubs didn't dominate the transfer market until much later. Someone more astute than me can probably explain some of this with financial mischief (looking at you Serie A). But the EPL started to ramp up transfer spending again in 03-04 (e.g., Crespo, Makalele, Mutu, CR7, Geremi, etc.), and by 06-07 you had clubs like Spurs and WHU matching the biggest international transfer fees of Inter, Barca, etc. By 07-08, the clubs associated with the biggest international transfers looks remarkably similar to today with some funny outliers (e.g., Valencia, Middlebrough, and Lyon spending big).
 
Kliq

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Nick Kaufman said:
Everyone loosened domestic players quotas because of the Bosman ruling that allowed free movement for EU players within EU. And while the first division wasn't as popular as it is today, when I was growing up it Greece in the 80s and we had two tv stations, the only match I could watch live on the whole weekend was an English first division game on Saturday afternoon; not even Greek league games were shown live back then. Then you would get highlights from foreign leagues on sunday nights and the English first division was the first.

Oh and btw, the English division had an advantage over others, because the average European team could only have two foreigners, while English sides could have Welsh, Scots etc. They may have been able to sign commonwealth players too; I am not sure for example whether Bruce Gropelaar who was South African players a foreigner or a domestic player with Liverpool.

What happened IMO is that the EPL was a rebrand that was accompanied with stadium upgrades & a hooliganism clampdown, an infusion of new TV money and free player movement (like everywhere). The difference was that the English league was the most popular abroad to begin with so it was always the first league to sell their TV rights abroad, so they got the best deals, which led to better players, which in turn improved to more people abroad following it, more merchandizing being sold, more money into the game, better players being signed, which in turn led to better TV deals and so on.

Basically a small initial advantage snowballed into a larger advantage over the rest of the world.
Click to expand...
I didn't know this, is this true? Obviously, the English leagues are not the only leagues to have become less homogenized over the years, but other leagues seemed to have a lot more foreign players, particularly from soccer-powerhouse nations, than the top flight English league. La Liga was teaming with South Americans from the 60s on, and Serie A has had a ton of foreign players since post-WW2; as a Sweden fan there is a huge history of Swedes in Serie A dating back to Gunnar Nordahl.
 
Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Nick Kaufman said:
The difference was that the English league was the most popular abroad to begin with so it was always the first league to sell their TV rights abroad, so they got the best deals, which led to better players, which in turn improved to more people abroad following it, more merchandizing being sold, more money into the game, better players being signed, which in turn led to better TV deals and so on.

Basically a small initial advantage snowballed into a larger advantage over the rest of the world.
Click to expand...
It didn't really happen that way. For a long time there was very little money made by any league selling rights abroad and the most well known league in the world was Serie A. And certainly the PL had far worse players than Serie A up through Calciopoli, it wasn't even close. After Calciopoli and the global financial crisis things became more complicated but arguably La Liga still had the best and most marketable players, certainly at the top of the sport.

The long run legacy of the British Empire is far far more important than the shift from the old FA-run system to the PL in explaining the eventual dominance of English football. Nobody speaks Italian around the world, La Liga is popular in South America and nowhere else for cultural/linguistic reasons, but the Brits put their claws in everywhere, with particularly profound connections with the most lucrative international market by far (the US), and English became a global language. For huge portions of the world, everything about PL football is far easier to consume than the other top five leagues.
 
Nick Kaufman

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Kliq said:
I didn't know this, is this true? Obviously, the English leagues are not the only leagues to have become less homogenized over the years, but other leagues seemed to have a lot more foreign players, particularly from soccer-powerhouse nations, than the top flight English league. La Liga was teaming with South Americans from the 60s on, and Serie A has had a ton of foreign players since post-WW2; as a Sweden fan there is a huge history of Swedes in Serie A dating back to Gunnar Nordahl.
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In the 80s, clubs were allowed to have two foreigners. There were plenty of rackets going because of this, so for example an Italian club would discover that an Argentinian player had an Italian grandpa and they would naturalize them, but as far as I remember these were not common. Like let's look at random lineups from the Champion's cup in 84. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of players would be natives.

Then in the early nineties or late eighties, 3 foreigners were allowed and then Bosman was allowed.
 
Kliq

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Nick Kaufman said:
In the 80s, clubs were allowed to have two foreigners. There were plenty of rackets going because of this, so for example an Italian club would discover that an Argentinian player had an Italian grandpa and they would naturalize them, but as far as I remember these were not common. Like let's look at random lineups from the Champion's cup in 84. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of players would be natives.

Then in the early nineties or late eighties, 3 foreigners were allowed and then Bosman was allowed.
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Interesting, for fun, the first club I looked up was 1954/55 AC Milan...looks like they have two Swedes, one Dane, an Argentine and a Uruguayan. Obviously the South Americans probably have Italian ancestry, but that still is three foreign players. Jumping ahead to 1984, they only have two, a Belgian and an English player.

Real Madrid in 1984 has just two foreign born players as well. Although if we go back to 1966 they have five players. In 1991 they had four international players, as they also did in 1975 and in 1936.
 
Cellar-Door

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Rumor that West Ham are planning to sign Yunus Musah for around 20M euro.
That would be a great signing, very reasonable price especially given he qualifies as homegrown.
 
rguilmar

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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The PL transfer window has creaked open.

Fixtures for the 23-24 season will also be released tomorrow and some players will return to training three weeks from now. This sport really never stops.
 
67YAZ

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Yup, and the Saudi PIF has billions of dollars under management by Clearlake Capital.

All on the up and up I’m sure.
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Oh, I didn’t know the Clearlake connection. Even more intrigue

This Athletic piece from a couple weeks ago runs through a litany of reasons why PIF is making this huge push. The one that isn’t played up so much here is that the Saudis see long term money in this. There’s scuttlebutt that the Kingdom is using these big signings to line up a UK and broadcast deal. They see an opening here, maybe a sizable one if Saudi league rights get paired with LIV (pronounced PGA) golf.
 
swiftaw

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Nick Kaufman said:
In the 80s, clubs were allowed to have two foreigners. There were plenty of rackets going because of this, so for example an Italian club would discover that an Argentinian player had an Italian grandpa and they would naturalize them, but as far as I remember these were not common. Like let's look at random lineups from the Champion's cup in 84. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of players would be natives.

Then in the early nineties or late eighties, 3 foreigners were allowed and then Bosman was allowed.
Click to expand...
I thought it was 3 foreigners on the field at any one time, not in the squad.
 
tmracht

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They're spreading it well between the teams at least. I'm so sad KK didn't fit in well in the EPL he was so good in Serie A. Mendy had such a meteoric rise and rapid crash. He was so pivotal for that stretch though. Ziyech was a misfit toy that left foot has magic in it though.
 
rguilmar

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Joselu to Real Madrid on a loan from Espanyol with an option to buy. He will most likely be the backup 9 not the Benzema replacement.

He and new teammate Dani Carvajal are married to twin sisters.
 
singaporesoxfan

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Nick Kaufman said:
In the 80s, clubs were allowed to have two foreigners. There were plenty of rackets going because of this, so for example an Italian club would discover that an Argentinian player had an Italian grandpa and they would naturalize them, but as far as I remember these were not common. Like let's look at random lineups from the Champion's cup in 84. I am pretty sure that the vast majority of players would be natives.

Then in the early nineties or late eighties, 3 foreigners were allowed and then Bosman was allowed.
Click to expand...
The Spanish clubs still do this; pretty easy as I understand it for players from South America to get Spanish citizenship - Vinicius Jr, Eder Militao, and Rodrygo all did it last year, to qualify as an EU player. Besides Bosman (which allowed EU players to play anywhere in the EU, which is entirely logical since that's the entire point of freedom of movement), there's the Cotonou Agreement, which allows players from signatory African/Caribbean/Pacific countries to not count towards the non-EU player limits.
 
singaporesoxfan

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Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Yup, and the Saudi PIF has billions of dollars under management by Clearlake Capital.

All on the up and up I’m sure.
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I don't agree with this insinuation at all. The Saudis are going about improving Saudi football the same way they are trying to implement the Vision 2030 economic plan - spend on big names and big splashy projects, rather than build the talent and the league from the ground up. I watched the Saudi Super Cup game with a Saudi prince a few years ago, listened to him bemoan the state of Saudi football, and chatted with him about the Premier League. His knowledge of the game was that of a casual fan, pretty shallow, and the kinds of players he and his retinue knew were either the big names everyone knows (the Messis and Ronaldos of the world) or the Muslim players, with Saudis very keenly aware and proud of Muslim players who do well.

The Saudi teams' actions in the transfer market suggest they have a very clear set of targets to cater to that kind of fan - they're willing to pay big money in transfers and wages for big names (Ronaldo, perhaps Lukaku), and especially willing to pay big money for Muslim players (Mendy, Kante, Koulibaly, Ziyech). My view is that Chelsea got lucky that many of the players they were trying to offload were big-name Muslim players. Also Chelsea have generally seemed to be doing good selling business this transfer season - look at them offloading Kai Havertz for £65m and Kovacic for £30m to Arsenal and Man City respectively. Teams that are in no way trying to give Chelsea a break somehow still seem to be paying them more for their players than what most observers thought they could get.
 
Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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singaporesoxfan said:
I don't agree with this insinuation at all. The Saudis are going about improving Saudi football the same way they are trying to implement the Vision 2030 economic plan - spend on big names and big splashy projects, rather than build the talent and the league from the ground up. I watched the Saudi Super Cup game with a Saudi prince a few years ago, listened to him bemoan the state of Saudi football, and chatted with him about the Premier League. His knowledge of the game was that of a casual fan, pretty shallow, and the kinds of players he and his retinue knew were either the big names everyone knows (the Messis and Ronaldos of the world) or the Muslim players, with Saudis very keenly aware and proud of Muslim players who do well.

The Saudi teams' actions in the transfer market suggest they have a very clear set of targets to cater to that kind of fan - they're willing to pay big money in transfers and wages for big names (Ronaldo, perhaps Lukaku), and especially willing to pay big money for Muslim players (Mendy, Kante, Koulibaly, Ziyech). My view is that Chelsea got lucky that many of the players they were trying to offload were big-name Muslim players. Also Chelsea have generally seemed to be doing good selling business this transfer season - look at them offloading Kai Havertz for £65m and Kovacic for £30m to Arsenal and Man City respectively. Teams that are in no way trying to give Chelsea a break somehow still seem to be paying them more for their players than what most observers thought they could get.
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It was a bit of a drive by remark.

I think its too early to tell regarding Chelsea and the Saudi clubs, it all really depends on who else they target and buy. There may be reasons to target some Chelsea players but we need to see who they do and don't target overall (and what they pay) to really judge.
 
Zososoxfan

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Vinho Tinto said:
Romano says Gundogan to Barca. He also reported that Di Maria and Benfica have agreed on a deal.
View: https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1671558716594745345
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Really good biz from the Blaugrana. If they can also nab Cancelo somehow, that would be a very good start to the summer. City have to be ready to let Cancelo go for relatively cheap as he doesn't figure into their plans and his stint at Bayern was not good. Could Barca get him for €25M? Can they afford that?

They really need to sell some high profile players though, namely a winger or two from the group of Dembele, Ansu, Raphinha, and Ferran. Dembele is owed the least money, is probably the best, and cost the most, so I don't see him leaving. The club looks ready to sell Ansu but he's owed so much money they'll likely take a hit on the transfer price. Ferran and Raph were bought for far too much money, so I don't think they help balance the books much without a PSG-type offer. So I expect Ansu to leave since he counts as all profit for FFP purposes I think, and perhaps one of Raph/Ferran goes just to get their wages off the books? Ansu nets ~€35M (£30M) (I think plenty of EPL clubs would make that bet). Ferran is still only 22 (Raph is 26), is owed €12M less over the course of his deal, and is Spanish, so I'd expect him to be kept unless they really need the money to improve the squad elsewhere. Raph has also performed well in the EPL already, so I do think an EPL club would pay ~€40-45M (£35-40M).
 
rguilmar

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Zososoxfan said:
Really good biz from the Blaugrana. If they can also nab Cancelo somehow, that would be a very good start to the summer. City have to be ready to let Cancelo go for relatively cheap as he doesn't figure into their plans and his stint at Bayern was not good. Could Barca get him for €25M? Can they afford that?

They really need to sell some high profile players though, namely a winger or two from the group of Dembele, Ansu, Raphinha, and Ferran. Dembele is owed the least money, is probably the best, and cost the most, so I don't see him leaving. The club looks ready to sell Ansu but he's owed so much money they'll likely take a hit on the transfer price. Ferran and Raph were bought for far too much money, so I don't think they help balance the books much without a PSG-type offer. So I expect Ansu to leave since he counts as all profit for FFP purposes I think, and perhaps one of Raph/Ferran goes just to get their wages off the books? Ansu nets ~€35M (£30M) (I think plenty of EPL clubs would make that bet). Ferran is still only 22 (Raph is 26), is owed €12M less over the course of his deal, and is Spanish, so I'd expect him to be kept unless they really need the money to improve the squad elsewhere. Raph has also performed well in the EPL already, so I do think an EPL club would pay ~€40-45M (£35-40M).
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Right now, I believe they can’t afford €25 million for Cancelo. They’re still in the 4:1 restriction, at least the last time I heard, so they’d have to clear €100 million off the books to add that €25 million for Cancelo. Barca has been able to balance the books for this past season allowing them to register Gavi’s new contract, so they’re moving in the right direction. That being said, I think your post pretty much summarizes the position Barca have put themselves in, hoping to be able to sign players on a free and others that better clubs are hoping to offload. Contrast that with what Madrid are doing in signing top level players and it looks like Barca are perpetually finding quick solutions at the expense of a long term plan.
 
67YAZ

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That’s Pulisic’s spot!

Hope he’s a hit there, but given the way the wheel never stops turning at Juve, I don’t expect Weah to still be there in 2025-26. Hopefully by then, he’s on a club where he’s a regular starter.
 
the1andonly3003

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67YAZ said:
That’s Pulisic’s spot!

Hope he’s a hit there, but given the way the wheel never stops turning at Juve, I don’t expect Weah to still be there in 2025-26. Hopefully by then, he’s on a club where he’s a regular starter.
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Juve is the next Leeds? Weston, Tim...Marsch next?
 
rguilmar

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Weah said recently that he sees his long term position as a wingback in a 3 CB formation. Juventus have run that type of system often recently and their wingbacks are really old- Cuadrado, De Siglio, Sandro and Kostic are all over 30 and on the downsides of their careers. Weah could end up being a decent value buy for a club like Juve.
 
Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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rguilmar said:
Weah said recently that he sees his long term position as a wingback in a 3 CB formation. Juventus have run that type of system often recently and their wingbacks are really old- Cuadrado, De Siglio, Sandro and Kostic are all over 30 and on the downsides of their careers. Weah could end up being a decent value buy for a club like Juve.
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If he can refine the defensive side of his game that could be a great positional switch for him.
 
Zososoxfan

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rguilmar said:
Right now, I believe they can’t afford €25 million for Cancelo. They’re still in the 4:1 restriction, at least the last time I heard, so they’d have to clear €100 million off the books to add that €25 million for Cancelo. Barca has been able to balance the books for this past season allowing them to register Gavi’s new contract, so they’re moving in the right direction. That being said, I think your post pretty much summarizes the position Barca have put themselves in, hoping to be able to sign players on a free and others that better clubs are hoping to offload. Contrast that with what Madrid are doing in signing top level players and it looks like Barca are perpetually finding quick solutions at the expense of a long term plan.
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Do you know the FFP/La Liga cap implications of registration? Like, why was it so important to register Gavi and Balde?

Re Madrid, getting Jude is legit, but they paid a fuckload for him when I don't think he's necessarily the best use of funds. First and foremost, they have Camavinga, Valverde, Tchoua, and the aging legends still in the fold. They also have a rather big gap at striker in the absence of Benz. Leaving that aside, would you rather pay €120M for Jude or €80M for Barrella? How about €60M for Sociedad's Merino?

If they still nab Osimhen, Muani, Alvarez, or god forbid Mbappe this summer, then I'll shut my stupid mouth.
 
67YAZ

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Tonali to Newcastle is one that just reaffirms how much stronger & wealthier the EPL is. Tonali is not traditionally the kind of player who ever leaves Serie A - grew up a Milan fan, joined Milan recently, playing in the UCL, and is already a national team fixture. The EPL keeps getting deeper and stronger.
 
rguilmar

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67YAZ said:
Tonali to Newcastle is one that just reaffirms how much stronger & wealthier the EPL is. Tonali is not traditionally the kind of player who ever leaves Serie A - grew up a Milan fan, joined Milan recently, playing in the UCL, and is already a national team fixture. The EPL keeps getting deeper and stronger.
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Maybe I’m all alone in this, but does anyone else think this is a bad thing?

Tonali reportedly didn’t even want to be sold.
 
Mighty Joe Young

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rguilmar said:
Maybe I’m all alone in this, but does anyone else think this is a bad thing?

Tonali reportedly didn’t even want to be sold.
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All he had to do would be say no. They can’t be sold without their permission. (As I’m sure you know)

But it IS another example of the Premier League bossing Europe.

The Athletic’s Oliver Kay has an excellent article up discussing this topic - specifically in regards to the cascade of whining coming from the English media over Saudi Arabia buying up elite talent.

https://theathletic.com/4632956/2023/06/23/saudi-arabia-premier-league-similarities/?source=user_shared_article
 
the1andonly3003

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67YAZ said:
Tonali to Newcastle is one that just reaffirms how much stronger & wealthier the EPL is. Tonali is not traditionally the kind of player who ever leaves Serie A - grew up a Milan fan, joined Milan recently, playing in the UCL, and is already a national team fixture. The EPL keeps getting deeper and stronger.
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But Saudi Arabia just got prime Ruben Neves and a quarter of Chelsea's squad!
 
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