Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd
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Agreed, cant see the league getting involved. Given the ongoing discussion here the trade looks like it was submitted standard subject to physicals and there's an easy and established remedy, dont complete the trade. Given IT's condition I would think arguing bad faith on the Cavs part would be a tough sell.
I think you guys are right. I guess I'm just thinking of a scenario where Cleveland is being totally unreasonable in regard to the medical issues. But I can see a scenario where they understand things fully going in and have a slightly different opinion after the exam. I would think the league offers some protection for teams that may just change their mind days after the trade call, but I don't think that's the case here.
Obligatory Atlanta nitpick: you should have added the Hawks to your list of teams that have lost key assets. Although I would have a good rueful laugh if THIS was the year Lebron comes to Atlanta.
My feeling is that Cleveland thinks the Celtics are caught between a rock and a hard place. If the trade is voided, the players returned to Boston might not be happy, especially Thomas. So, the Cavaliers will ask for an arm and a leg, allowing Boston to keep the trade intact. If they ask for 10 on a scale, they won't get it but maybe they'll get a 7; if they ask for a 3, then that's all they will get.
If they void the trade, what prevents Thomas from telling the Celtics that he is going to have the operation.. He misses the season, gets paid for it, and then moves on. Way to go, Ainge. You'll soon be qualified to act as GM for the Red Sox or the Bruins.
If they void the trade, what prevents Thomas from telling the Celtics that he is going to have the operation.. He misses the season, gets paid for it, and then moves on. Way to go, Ainge. You'll soon be qualified to act as GM for the Red Sox or the Bruins.
Why should any team get two bites at the apple? If they don't like a medical report, they first attempt to extract additional compensation, and failing that they go running to the league?
Even if Isaiah were pure cap fodder, the Cavs have 29.1 million reasons to complete this trade.
Because as stated previously in this thread if he has the surgery he is forfeiting millions in a contract year. He is going to play if at all possible because it serves his own interest.
That's an absurd hot take.
Celtics don't have to complete the trade. If IT is hurt enough to need surgery, then so be it. That's not Ainge's fault if indeed true, and the attempted trade would have no impact.
Cleveland backing out due to legitimate medical concerns is one thing. Cleveland backing out just because they think they can suddenly pry more assets just to appease LeBron results in Ainge filing, and likely winning, a grievance.
Yes, I understand that. But as Stitch01 said, they have a remedy: void the trade. If they go ahead with it (with or without additional compensation), it's caveat emptor.
Cleveland(forum)ers seem to like ("genius") Altman´s move, saying he has time until WED to void the deal and feel out possible better deals around the league. If he gets a better trade offer, he will void the deal.
Is that the douchebag-move some stated in here (burning bridges with other GMs as your 1st move) or is that GM elementary school? Or both?
Is that the douchebag-move some stated in here (burning bridges with other GMs as your 1st move) or is that GM elementary school? Or both?
The trade was submitted to the league office pending physicals, so not sure how its a second bite. I certainly dont think the league should (or will) force Boston to provide additional compensation, they'll tell the Cavs if they dont like the physical rip up the trade. Given what we know about IT's hip condition, I would think its going to be hard to argue the Cavs didnt operate in good faith. Even if the Cavs weren't operating in good faith, how is the league going to second guess a medical opinion about an ongoing and uncertain hip condition?
EDIT: I saw your last post, I guess your issue is more with the seeking additional compensation? Hard to say, Celtics certainly within their rights to say take it or leave it but both sides have incentives to find a solution.
I think procedurally once submitted the deal is considered complete, but a team can veto the deal if there's a problem with the physical. So technically, this is a second bite at that apple---but that's just semantics, ultimately the teams have to agree on the guys given the physical condition of the players.
I think the real question (and if one carefully reads Woj's piece this is confirmed) is whether they agreed on IT's health as part of the deal submitted to league or not. Effectively, did Cleveland waive the right to raise this now?
No idea, but it is the question to be focused on.
I think the real question (and if one carefully reads Woj's piece this is confirmed) is whether they agreed on IT's health as part of the deal submitted to league or not. Effectively, did Cleveland waive the right to raise this now?
No idea, but it is the question to be focused on.
You really think the Cavs would agree to "as is" without first examining IT4 themselves?
If such were to happen, I think it would happen after they had a look.
Typically all of this is stuff that would happen behind the scenes before any deal is made, but it's a unique situation with the two biggest player pieces being a guy known to be injured and a guy demanding a trade.
Now you also have the issue of the latter thinking he was headed to a big market contending team where he could be the man, with the alternatives being an awful Phoenix team or Milwaukee.
No kidding. I can't believe this forum is head over heels on this issue. Of course Cleveland has a right to its own medical exam, that's par for the course and why this deal is not yet official. That's just...basic.
I think they could have waived the rights to a physical, but if they had I think we'd have heard it by now.
My point has been we have no idea and there's different reasons the teams might do things.
For example, there has been reporting that the Nets pick was added in after they exchanged medical info on IT; I think it is clear both teams knew he was injured and had some limits and one explanation is Celts gave on the pick only to close-off the IT issue. If I were Celtics, I'd want there to be low/zero risk of the deal blowing up (as has actually happened) and so I'd try to bake that risk into the pre-announcement discussion (such as saying 'as is' or less dramatically, 'so long as the records we share are accurate' or something like that). Cleveland did not say, for example, when news broke that it was 'subject to IT's physical' which one might expect in this context if the issue weren't already addressed. One could argue that they didn't need to say that because they knew there would be a physical, of course, too. We don't know.
My best guess here is that Lebron (most likely) complained and that is driving the current stuff. I think the less likely, but possible, explanation is that the teams legitimately disagree on the medical stuff and are trying to work that through. I find that less likely because it requires assuming that both teams knew his health was a huge uncertainty and didn't deal with it before announcing the trade---which would be quite odd.
Yup, but you also have to imagine that if Irving doesn't want to go to Phoenix or Milwaukee, his agent is whispering to them that he will not sign an extension in two years. He still may be worth trading for, but it could also put a cap on what they are willing to offer.
The fact that he'll only get one year show me offers this summer followed by his 30th birthday and contract offers more in line with what he's making at the moment. Lil' Zeke wants to get paid this summer, and that requires he be out on the court scoring and proving to teams that he can play through the pain.
This would stand to reason. If the Cavs feel the outlook for IT is that dire, they should veto the trade and go find another PG, not ask for a rookie wing.
Kyrie's a Jersey guy, so you have to think the east coast has a lot more appeal to him than the frozen tundra or the desert.
How do the Cavs deal with that uncertainty without examining IT4 themselves? Are you suggesting that Boston could have sent IT4 to Cleveland for an examination before the deal was announced? Has that ever happened before?
They reviewed his medical records and could simply make a judgment based on that. That would be unusual but not unheard of---and so we're back to the point I've made a few teams (and others have joined) that without knowing details of what teams said and agreed to it's all speculation.
I was addressing the situation in which Cleveland, knowing the full extent of IT's injury, goes ahead with the trade anyway and then files a grievance with the league, arguing that they had been misled earlier.
And if this was a ploy by Cleveland to solicit other offers during the waiting period, so be it. But the league needs to shorten the period in which teams can void a trade following a physical. The long waiting period is unfair to the players involved.
And if this was a ploy by Cleveland to solicit other offers during the waiting period, so be it. But the league needs to shorten the period in which teams can void a trade following a physical. The long waiting period is unfair to the players involved.
Good article up on Yahoo. Good quotes and some things I haven't seen yet. It's probably easier to read it than have me cherry pick stuff out to post.
Sweet of you to think of the players involved.
Anyway, shouldn't the details of the injury disclosure be part of the call that the teams make with the league office before announcing a trade? EDIT: According to the link just posted above, it would seem so.
That would have to be negotiated in the CBA. Players are human beings with families and can't be expected to drop whatever they're doing in their offseason to fly across the country to take a physical because they got traded. The owners would have to give something substantial at the table to make that happen. Which they won't do because it's not that important to them.
Even better, if I was Irving's agent and he's excited about playing in Boston, then I'm telling Cleveland and any potential trade partners that they will not waive the trade kicker like they did for Boston. That adds a new layer of complexity to any other possible deals.
When? Do you have examples of this happening when there is a known, serious injury involved?
Cleveland will fold on this. It very much feels like a ploy and if they ever nix the deal, the offers will only be worse this time around. It's not ideal for Thomas to return to Boston but Cleveland got a great deal for their future, one they won't come close to replicating. It's all a smokescreen, Cleveland will fold. Can't believe Boston didn't disclose info along the way, the Cavs clown show management and owner are just an embarrassment.
As the article says "anything beyond a second rounder is a deal-breaker".
Fans can go back and forth on this but while I've seen reports that Cavs will ask for Tatum or Brown, most NBA writers think the lack of protection on the Nets pick is the sweetener needed because of IT's hip.
Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen anyone that matters say the Celtics actually should pony up much more than a second rounder (or maybe their own late first).
-Is- Cleveland even allowed to solicit late offers from other teams during this period? I would think that this would amount to tampering since there was already a deal in place.
Also - what people are forgetting - is that Boston is the one place where IT knows he will have the opportunity to get a max contract next year. That's why he declined to have the surgery in the first place.
I mean let's think this true. Suppose IT sulks and opts for the surgery and decides he isn't resigning with Boston. Where else is he going? What other team has the pieces to let him handle the ball on offense, play at a pace and spacing that brings out the best in him, and still has the other pieces to hide him on defense?
Brad Stevens made IT. He'd be giving up millions to try to find somewhere else to play that allows him to use his talents to the best of his ability.
Technically, I'm sure Cleveland cannot. But I'm sure there is plenty of wink-wink stuff that could happen.
No. The trade has been completed and signed off on by the league. All players are frozen pending physicals then once the physicals are signed off on the trade becomes final.
It's all gamesmanship. They know what they traded for.....the Nets pick, two role players and a damaged goods expiring contract. This will be finalized soon I have zero doubt.
Well, no examples, but I'm sure it happens for players who are only there as salary cap ballast. I doubt Boston gave 2 shits about Keith Bogans' health when they gave him a $5 million contract solely to facilitate the KG/PP trade.
It all depends on how important the player is to the whole deal. Does Cleveland view IT more like the #1 piece in the deal or more like salary filler?
I just don't think we'll know what is going on until the deal is done or voided. There could be a legitimate difference of opinion on ITs medicals. Or either team could be trying to pull a fast one. (Is like to believe Danny is not doing that).
Edit: I think it is probably a legit difference of opinion or LeBron doing some seagull-style management.
Also signed LJ Peak out of Georgetown this morning to a partial guarantee. Another sign that this Kyrie deal is going to get done as we had no other roster spots.
Robinson is a nice cheap depth guy for our frontcourt. I like this move assuming we sign him.
Peak may well just be a camp body, but he profiles as a 3 and d guy who can defend 2-3 positions well. That's a need post-trade but not as much without the trade
In a vacuum, yes. Post defense depth is potentially a significant need. In the real world, a full season of Robinson may be worth more than the 26 minutes of Bogut before he goes out for the year with an injury.
I am on board with a 2nd round pick (or 2) at this point so Cleveland can save face.
I had always figured both teams knew IT was damaged goods and going to miss significant time. But maybe each had a different definition of "significant time"
In retrospect, I am sure DA wished he had Cleveland sign off waiving IT's physical wrt any hip injury. And if that would not fly at least make some picks conditional instead (if that is allowed in NBA) --- IT on active roster for half the games or 75% of playoff games --> no additional pick ; if < half and <75% playoff games---> Memphis pick. Who knows, maybe they still do something like that.
I had always figured both teams knew IT was damaged goods and going to miss significant time. But maybe each had a different definition of "significant time"
In retrospect, I am sure DA wished he had Cleveland sign off waiving IT's physical wrt any hip injury. And if that would not fly at least make some picks conditional instead (if that is allowed in NBA) --- IT on active roster for half the games or 75% of playoff games --> no additional pick ; if < half and <75% playoff games---> Memphis pick. Who knows, maybe they still do something like that.
There's no way they would have signed off on waiving the physical. None.
And I've never really seen those type of conditional picks in the NBA.
No, and I think this is one avenue a competent GM wouldn't risk going down. The time to solicit late offers is after the deal falls through. The NBA does not want trades to become a total farce, and so the league would likely be extra vigilant to ensure this sort of thing does not happen, and the penalties for teams involved would be quite severe (think the T'Wolves penalties during the McHale era).
If we learned anything during the Deflategate fiasco, it's that league commissioners can pretty much do anything they want when it comes to imposing penalties on teams.
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