James Harden had "warts" too and look at what he's done with a shittier team of shooters built around him.To quote others- I think its HRB in this forum but other NBA-heads say this as well - at 25, you are what you are in the NBA.
This isn't to say Kyrie cannot get better at certain skills because he clearly can still improve physically. However he has also been in the NBA six years. In none of those six years has he ever played what could be called good defense (aside from some small sample sizes in the playoffs and even then he let guys he was guarding get free). He doesn't distribute well and he, by some accounts (of course this could be team LeBron muddying the waters) he isn't a good locker-room guy.
Look, I hope I am wrong and the guy comes to Boston and helps lead them to more banners. However, I have watched enough NBA to know what this guy is - he has amazing handles and can beat anyone off the dribble. However a guy with his skill set who has no interest in playing consistent defense is a huge red flag. I strongly predict that if he pulls his turnstile act here next winter, a lot of people giddy about him now are going to be cursing him. Again, I hope I am wrong...
Only if you believe 3 top 3 picks in a row (Brown, Tatum, LAL pick) don't count. This team has a ton of upside, especially on offense. How do you stop a lineup of Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, and Horford?With Irving, do the Celtics have a new "Big 3"? Hayward-Horford-Irving. They may struggle out of the gate, but if they get rolling, look out.
I get this line of thinking. My question is this - why hasn't he done so to date? What is Irving waiting for? He's been on a championship contending team for three years now? Is it that he lacked a Brad Stevens in his life?I'm not expecting him to turn into the next Avery Bradley on defense. If he can even make just a modest improvement it changes his value.
No, it's Kyrie-Hayward-Horford for now.So are Kyrie, Hayward, and Morris the New New Big 3?
James Harden is and always has been a better player than Kyrie Irving.James Harden had "warts" too and look at what he's done with a shittier team of shooters built around him.
This sums up my thoughts as well. Crazy that many of us who readily admit that IT4 is flawed, still hate this trade...Please use statistics to back up your argument. For next season, at least, Cleveland has upgraded assuming Thomas is healthy. If Thomas is not healthy that clearly changes things. But the C's traded a guy who had a +5.4 BPM and 4.8 VORP as well as player with a +1.6 BPM and a 2.1 VORP for a guy who clocks in at +2.5 BPM and 2.9 VORP. In other words, the Celtics traded an older, team-first but more efficient version of Kyrie as well as an above league average three and D wing for a high usage ball-stopper. If the Cavs can get past Golden State (and they have more depth again assuming that Thomas is healthy), I think the calculus changes for James, especially with another young asset aboard - and I think the Cavs will try to pay Thomas if that happens too.
Yes Kyrie has sick handles and yes he CAN play better defense than Thomas. But why hasn't he played consistently better defense? Was he saving it for Brad Stevens? Add the Brooklyn pick and this is a bad bet. Uncle Drew has shown no proclivity to be a team guy and that is while playing on a championship contender.
I want to be clear - IT4 is a flawed player and I get the argument in favor of Kyrie over him even if I don't agree. Crowder is a nice value NBA wing. And Zizic is a question mark as is the Brooklyn pick in terms of what it nets. However together this is a massive - and too concentrated - bet that Kyrie comes to Boston and changes his ways after six NBA seasons where he showed that he is a ball-stopper, a disinterested defender and a guy who couldn't put winning before being the alpha. These are facts. I guess he can still change but I won't be holding my breath.
There is also the possibility that the Lakers end up 6th and Brooklyn 5th.That is the absolute worst case scenario.
He's not staying anyway. It's basically his parting gift to Cleveland.Lebron will trade the Brooklyn pick if he can. Did it once before. He's not staying for a rookie.
If that pick puts Davis in Cleveland, man. There's the risk, what that pick nets them.Lebron will trade the Brooklyn pick if he can. Did it once before. He's not staying for a rookie.
LOLOL. only four players from last year's team remain. what chemistry is he talking about? Brown and horford and smart? come on. that is so f'n lazyCharlie Pierce tweeted about how worried he is about team chemistry being upset. I say the deal as reported is well worth that risk.
No I think many who hate the trade believe Kyrie is a T25 player in this league. But the difference between him and IT might be Crowder and Zizic (to account for age difference, injury, one less year of control, and to make the trade work under the cap). If Ainge had drawn the line on any high draft pick - lets say he offers 2-3 of the Celtics own first rounders...who would have beaten that? Ainge bid against himself because of his desire to do the deal now, the offer I outlined would have been fair and strong and Ainge should have made Cleveland decide to accept it or move on.The people who hate this deal don't hate it because the Celtics gave up too many assets. They hate it because they think Kyrie is not a top 50 player in the NBA (and probably not even a top 10 PG) and we just gave up a top 5 pick in a draft next year that will probably be loaded.
In other words the Nets pick will probably be a better value (benefit/cost) than Kyrie himself. That is a downgrade in quality long term.
If you think Kyrie is a top 25 player then obviously feel free to disagree.
I understand why everyone wants the Unibrower, but given the mechanics of the new CBA there is pretty close to a 0% chance that he goes anywhere before the middle of the next decade.If it's unprotected, I really hate this trade. I'm just stunned that Kyrie Irving was the player that Ainge chose to cash his chips in on, especially with the possibility of The Brow being available.
I am a big Kyrie fan after his playoffs so I'm a little biased but not a top 50? That's ridiculous. Those last 2 series were obviously the peak of his career so far but if he can keep something close to that up he's close to top 10 in the league.The people who hate this deal don't hate it because the Celtics gave up too many assets. They hate it because they think Kyrie is not a top 50 player in the NBA (and probably not even a top 10 PG) and we just gave up a top 5 pick in a draft next year that will probably be loaded
Just to add to this: on average players reach peak stats in their fourth season in the NBA. Kyrie is who he is.To quote others- I think its HRB in this forum but other NBA-heads say this as well - at 25, you are what you are in the NBA.
And Jae and Isaiah. I think that's his point.LOLOL. only four players from last year's team remain. what chemistry is he talking about? Brown and horford and smart? come on. that is so f'n lazy
It has to land 2 through 5 in 2018. If it does not, we have to see how the Kings do in 2019 in a pick that becomes ours if it is not # 1 or we could swap 2019 Kings pick with the Sixers own 2019 pick.what are the protections on the Lakers pick again for us less knowledgeable folk?
1) From the view of marginal utility, point guard is the least valuable position in the NBA. Or for people who have never studied economics, just think of it in terms of supply and demand. There are a fuck ton of great point guards in the NBA right now, and it is the easiest position to find a replacement star.I am a big Kyrie fan after his playoffs so I'm a little biased but not a top 50? That's ridiculous.
They don't have anything else to offer. Celtics could still top it with LA/Sac, Brown, Tatum, whatever else.If that pick puts Davis in Cleveland, man. There's the risk, what that pick nets them.
Lol, this makes it all worth it. That was by far the weirdest take of the offseason.Plus, Nate Duncan is going to be beyond shocked the Celtics didn't sign IT to a max extension
Getting really excited about the thought of Kyrie being motivated about being the guy to lead a team over LeBron in the East ending the 7 year streak. Going to be a lot of fun watching Kyrie, Hayward and Tatum the next 4 years.People are being awfully critical of this deal when no one really knows how ITs hip is going to affect him going forward, or where BK finishes next year (let alone how those pesky ping pong balls fall).
I doubt they wait until after the season to sign Smart, I expect them to extend him this fall when they can keep the price of the extension down.Re-sign Smart after next season and you've got Kyrie, Smart, Tatum/Brown, Gordon, Horford with Tatum/Brown as your 6th man. That's much better than the 2018-2019 Celtics were looking yesterday.
This might be my favorite part of the deal. Smart always had an infinitely better chance of being a part of the next Celtics title winner than Thomas.I doubt they wait until after the season to sign Smart, I expect them to extend him this fall when they can keep the price of the extension down.
This is exactly correct. Especially when one considers the return.So, let's try to unemotionally look at the assets traded:
Crowder: Fine complementary player on a great contract, but how many minutes given the arrivals of Hayward and Tatum would he be getting?
Thomas: Great story, motivational leader ... but coming off a bad hip, and was last season his career peak?
Zizic: Maybe he'll be a solid big man ... but is a big man really an important part of Stevens's game plan?
BKN pick: A completely valuable unknown
He may have to reconsider his C minus.Lol, this makes it all worth it. That was by far the weirdest take of the offseason.
I thought you guys were just fucking around with this flat earth shit but I'm reading it elsewhere. Please tell me he's goofing on all of us. CHB will have a field day with that.