Kyrie Irving: Hardwood Magician

lovegtm

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There were no teams with $23 million in open space at the trade deadline. And the Clippers didn't unload him then (mostly because they literally didn't have the picks to trade until after the Philadelphia deal). So, sure, they could spend the early days of July that the competition (read, New York) are using to aggressively court Irving and Durant.

Or, you know, they could just deal their backup PG of the future and a middle first to the team that Kyrie plays for to land Irving in a sign & trade and sign Durant outright. Because between Williams, Harrell, Zubac, et al, they already have a pretty good surrounding cast of roleplayers for their stars.
You're suggesting that the Clippers wouldn't have worked out any contigent cap-clearing deals for Gallo's contract between now and July 1st?

I'd like the Celtics to get solid assets if Kyrie leaves too, but this feels like wishcasting. SGA would be one of the most valuable S&T pieces given up in the past 20 years, and all the Clippers have to do to avoid that is work the phones a bit for 2 months.
 

nighthob

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You're suggesting that the Clippers wouldn't have worked out any contigent cap-clearing deals for Gallo's contract between now and July 1st?
No, I'm suggesting that most GMs won't commit themselves to deals until they see all the alternatives, and the tanking teams don't always have the help to give you. Like Cleveland, for example. And the teams that have the most open space usually have their own goals in free agency, which they usually aren't willing to sell ahead of time for a couple of low firsts.
 

lovegtm

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No, I'm suggesting that most GMs won't commit themselves to deals until they see all the alternatives, and the tanking teams don't always have the help to give you. Like Cleveland, for example. And the teams that have the most open space usually have their own goals in free agency, which they usually aren't willing to sell ahead of time for a couple of low firsts.
Any of the rebuilding teams with space would agree to SGA+Gallo in advance, and eschew random vet signings. So then it's a matter of whether you can get the price lower than that, but you're definitely not going to bid against yourself and give the Celtics SGA + a first. I don't think we're going to get much further on this topic though, so I'm happy to leave off here.
 

nighthob

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You realize you're basically talking about Atlanta and Chicago, right? The other tankers are either over the cap (Cleveland, Memphis, and Washington) or lack sufficient space (New Orleans and possibly Charlotte). The others from this year's Tank Battle have plans to aggressively bid on free agents that they're not going to give up lightly (Phoenix and Orlando).

And if your point is that they're already giving up that package to whoever will take Gallinari, what are we even debating? It's just easier to make the deal with the non-competitor to get the first shoe to drop and thus directly weaken Golden State.

It's not like we're discussing trading someone like Tatum that's already demonstrated the ability to be an alpha scorer and a plus defender. We're discussing a player whose hi-end projection is third star. Gilgeous-Alexander could become an above average offensive player and a defensive asset. No matter what you think of Irving's defense, there's pretty nigh on a zero percent chance SGA ever has anything like Irving's overall impact.
 

Spelunker

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I love it when a hypothetical that makes sense slams right into contradictory empirical evidence.

This makes me wonder how much YouTube and such has affected basketball itself. Like, some stuff is easier to translate to video—clowning a fool for example—and this will affect the trajectory of skills development. It could be related to how rapidly the game has been changing in recent years.
Following up on this comment from ages ago, here's some more empirical.evidence for you.

It's a truism that bars these days basically are required to have two things- a spicy marg, and an espresso martini. Well here's one take- the bottom of the menu- at a cocktail bar in Seattle:

62911

(Also, nice nod to Iverson there)
 

Swedgin

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Kyrie is unlikely to re-sign with Dallas and will be going to free agency in the off season. I wonder which lucky team will sign him next. It sounds like Dallas may try to keep him. The Lakers seem like a possible destination.
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/.amp/news/dallas-mavs-sign-kyrie-irving-new-contract-test-free-agency-rumors
That's not quite what the article says. The actual message is that the Kyrie is not going to sign an extension with the Mavs, which is different from saying he will not re-sign with them (though he may well not), and is not actually news. The MAVs can only offer Kyrie a two year extension prior to the start of free agency. After 6/30 the Mavs can (but should not) offer him up to a five year max, other teams can offer up to 4 years. Post-trade there was never any expectation that Kyrie would extend with the Mavs, given that the impetus behind his trade demand from Brooklyn was the Nets unwillingness to offer him a long term extension.
 

bigq

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That's not quite what the article says. The actual message is that the Kyrie is not going to sign an extension with the Mavs, which is different from saying he will not re-sign with them (though he may well not), and is not actually news. The MAVs can only offer Kyrie a two year extension prior to the start of free agency. After 6/30 the Mavs can (but should not) offer him up to a five year max, other teams can offer up to 4 years. Post-trade there was never any expectation that Kyrie would extend with the Mavs, given that the impetus behind his trade demand from Brooklyn was the Nets unwillingness to offer him a long term extension.
Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate it. I would guess the extra year that Dallas can offer is not much of a carrot for Kyrie.

This season while on the Brooklyn roster the team put up 24 wins and 16 losses in games that Kyrie played. In games in which he was inactive or did not play the Nets record was 8 wins and 4 losses. The team had a better winning percentage when he did not play.

Since joining Dallas, in games in which Kyrie has played the Mavericks have 7 wins and 12 losses. When Kyrie joined the team the Mavs had 28 wins and 26 losses.

SSS caveats apply and the make up of the Mavericks team is certainly an important factor however it won't hurt my feelings if evidence that teams are better without Kyrie continues to grow.

Given his age and the size of contract he will likely be seeking and taking into consideration his inability to stay on the court, it will be interesting to see where he lands next. The cost-benefit curve for signing Kyrie would be fascinating to study.
 

snowmanny

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Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate it. I would guess the extra year that Dallas can offer is not much of a carrot for Kyrie.
Depends.

Lots of details here:

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/platform/amp/2023/2/12/23593209/kyrie-irving-controls-the-mavericks-fate-this-off-season

Summary:

“Option 1: If Kyrie Irving left the Mavericks outright this off-season and signed with the only LeBron and AD Lakers, the max deal they could offer the veteran is $152 million.

Option 2: A sign and trade to the Lakers or another team for Kyrie Irving could up his deal to $201 million.

Option 3: The Mavericks can offer a 4-year deal of up to $210 million

Option: 4 The Mavericks can offer the designated vet max for a 5-year max at 272 million”

If they offer Option 4 that’s a pretty tempting carrot.
 

bigq

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Depends.

Lots of details here:

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/platform/amp/2023/2/12/23593209/kyrie-irving-controls-the-mavericks-fate-this-off-season

Summary:

“Option 1: If Kyrie Irving left the Mavericks outright this off-season and signed with the only LeBron and AD Lakers, the max deal they could offer the veteran is $152 million.

Option 2: A sign and trade to the Lakers or another team for Kyrie Irving could up his deal to $201 million.

Option 3: The Mavericks can offer a 4-year deal of up to $210 million

Option: 4 The Mavericks can offer the designated vet max for a 5-year max at 272 million”

If they offer Option 4 that’s a pretty tempting carrot.
Thanks for that. I think he has earned $195M through last season and stands to collect about $39M this season. While Option 4 is the most lucrative I will not be surprised if he chooses a different path. Thankfully he will not be coming back to the Celtics.
 

snowmanny

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Thanks for that. I think he has earned $195M through last season and stands to collect about $39M this season. While Option 4 is the most lucrative I will not be surprised if he chooses a different path. Thankfully he will not be coming back to the Celtics.
Sort of hard to imagine the Mavericks offering the five-year, but who knows with Mark Cuban, and who knows what the dynamic is with Doncic?
 

bigq

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Sort of hard to imagine the Mavericks offering the five-year, but who knows with Mark Cuban, and who knows what the dynamic is with Doncic?
Dallas seems to be in a no win situation. I wonder if and when they acknowledge trading for Kyrie was a mistake.
 

nighthob

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I am so looking forward to the Laker sign & trade followed by Kyzuzu nuking his fifth team. Or maybe they can send him to Phoenix to reunite with KD and destroy the Suns for a generation. I mean it would be the cap to Kyzuzu’s career to demolish a team that’s already traded its future to his old team. It would definitely make him the Gozer.
 

koufax32

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I am so looking forward to the Laker sign & trade followed by Kyzuzu nuking his fifth team. Or maybe they can send him to Phoenix to reunite with KD and destroy the Suns for a generation. I mean it would be the cap to Kyzuzu’s career to demolish a team that’s already traded its future to his old team. It would definitely make him the Gozer.
Nothing to add other than my wife asked if I was okay after lol’ing from seeing “Kyzuzu.”
 

lovegtm

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Dallas seems to be in a no win situation. I wonder if and when they acknowledge trading for Kyrie was a mistake.
They had to know he was gone if they didn't offer the 5-year max, so I bet they double down on that, and get dumber from there.

So crazy that they could have had Brunson, their pick, and DFS for less money. Truly a shit franchise.
 

Auger34

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They had to know he was gone if they didn't offer the 5-year max, so I bet they double down on that, and get dumber from there.

So crazy that they could have had Brunson, their pick, and DFS for less money. Truly a shit franchise.
Could have had both Brunson and DFS for 4/56, which would both be among the best contracts in the game.

The decision to not offer Brunson 4/56, even into January of last year, is mind boggling.

Cuban got 2 HoF players, and for that he deserves a ton of credit….but man is that franchise an utter disaster if you remove those two
 

Kliq

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Could have had both Brunson and DFS for 4/56, which would both be among the best contracts in the game.

The decision to not offer Brunson 4/56, even into January of last year, is mind boggling.

Cuban got 2 HoF players, and for that he deserves a ton of credit….but man is that franchise an utter disaster if you remove those two
He also had a third that he lowballed despite his prime matching up with Dirk's, then they went to another team and immediately won the MVP.
 

ManicCompression

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I am so looking forward to the Laker sign & trade followed by Kyzuzu nuking his fifth team. Or maybe they can send him to Phoenix to reunite with KD and destroy the Suns for a generation. I mean it would be the cap to Kyzuzu’s career to demolish a team that’s already traded its future to his old team. It would definitely make him the Gozer.
Oooooh, Kyrie for Ayton? I like that for the Mavs
 

bigq

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He also had a third that he lowballed despite his prime matching up with Dirk's, then they went to another team and immediately won the MVP.
I had to think about this for a minute. I completely forgot that Steve Nash spent six seasons with Dallas in between his stints with Phoenix.
 

joe dokes

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Or maybe they can send him to Phoenix to reunite with KD and destroy the Suns for a generation.
There's a flat Earth joke in there somewhere.

But seriously.....His basketball skills remain undeniable. But the correlation between those skills and the team he is on winning lots of games seems more deniable. At this point, it's more of a morbid/intellectual curiosity as to which Owner/GM/Coach/star player thinks they can make it work.
 

HomeRunBaker

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He also had a third that he lowballed despite his prime matching up with Dirk's, then they went to another team and immediately won the MVP.
The best part was that Cuban only offered Nash 4/$36m…..then turned around and signed Erick Dampier to a 7/$72m deal as a Free Agent weeks later. His excuse was that Nash had missed some time the prior year and his minutes were down…..neither of which were the case. He just F’d up and judging from the Brunson dealings hadn’t learned. Cuban has ALWAYS had an affinity for overpaying bigs and undervaluing guards….:and then moves on Kyrie of all people. This may not be a good time for him to be running a team.
 

Kliq

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The best part was that Cuban only offered Nash 4/$36m…..then turned around and signed Erick Dampier to a 7/$72m deal as a Free Agent weeks later. His excuse was that Nash had missed some time the prior year and his minutes were down…..neither of which were the case. He just F’d up and judging from the Brunson dealings hadn’t learned. Cuban has ALWAYS had an affinity for overpaying bigs and undervaluing guards….:and then moves on Kyrie of all people. This may not be a good time for him to be running a team.
Oh yeah I forgot that they lowballed Nash in order to pay Dampier, who went on an all-time contract run in the second half of the season and immediately regressed to being the mediocre big he was before as soon as he got paid by Dallas.
 

benhogan

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They had to know he was gone if they didn't offer the 5-year max, so I bet they double down on that, and get dumber from there.

So crazy that they could have had Brunson, their pick, and DFS for less money. Truly a shit franchise.
Yea, Dallas will double down on DUMB. Teams do it all the time, not sure why people defend Sports Executives/Owners as some sort of protected class from criticism. Sure they have more/better information than us, doesn't mean they know what to do with it. The fact is Dallas executives aren't competing with us, they are competing with sharks like Danny, Zarren, Morey, etc.

He just F’d up and judging from the Brunson dealings hadn’t learned. Cuban has ALWAYS had an affinity for overpaying bigs and undervaluing guards….:and then moves on Kyrie of all people. This may not be a good time for him to be running a team.
A 3yr contract to a 35yr old Javale McGee when you already have Kleber, Powell, & Woods is pretty damning evidence of that affinity.
 
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Auger34

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He also had a third that he lowballed despite his prime matching up with Dirk's, then they went to another team and immediately won the MVP.
Yeah…to add on to that, everyone loved Nash. His teammates, the city, everyone…and Cuban completely lowballed him (to an insulting degree really). Hey but at least they got Erick Dampier, the poster boy for consistency and effort
 

Auger34

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Yea, Dallas will double down on DUMB. Teams do it all the time, not sure why people defend Sports Executives/Owners as some sort of protected class from criticism. Sure they have more/better information than us, doesn't mean they know what to do with it. The fact is Dallas executives aren't competing with us, they are competing with sharks like Danny, Zarren, Morey, etc.
The way Dallas runs their team sounds like a nightmare. Basically a bunch of execs cozying up to Cuban to try to get his ear and influence over the team. All of the stuff surrounding Haralabob’s time there (the fact that he was even hired, the influence he gained, the kerfuffle with Nelson) points to a terribly run franchise and it’s mostly because of Cuban
 

HomeRunBaker

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A 3yr contract to a 35yr old Javale McGee when you already have Kleber, Powell, & Woods is pretty damning evidence of that affinity.
He also traded for Brendan Haywood so he could sign him to a big 6-year deal and was one of those guys who overpaid the 7-foot backup center back in the day…..Evan Eschmeyer and another guy I can’t think of on top of those already mentioned. He also wasn’t afraid to take on Tyson Chandler’s contracts a couple times despite being damaged goods with his back.
 

Kliq

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He also traded for Brendan Haywood so he could sign him to a big 6-year deal and was one of those guys who overpaid the 7-foot backup center back in the day…..Evan Eschmeyer and another guy I can’t think of on top of those already mentioned. He also wasn’t afraid to take on Tyson Chandler’s contracts a couple times despite being damaged goods with his back.
Well, he actually traded for Tyson Chandler, watched him anchor a defense that nullified LeBron and The Heat in route to winning the NBA title, then DIDN'T want to pay Chandler anymore, so they traded him for flotsam to the Knicks, where he promptly made All-NBA and was the DPOY for the Knicks, while Dallas cratered without him and got swept in the first round by OKC as their "title defense." They got him back on his expiring deal a few years later (and he was pretty good for them that one year) but then he left to sign for Phoenix.
 

Fishy1

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Not sure if contract situations will matter here, but I have to think that if Cuban isn't careful, Kyrie will poison the well so thoroughly he'll have Luka wantingout as well. In fact, I wonder if, with the horrid roster moves and the inability to field a defensively competitive team, Luka isn't already thinking that way.

Within two years that Brooklyn team was completely dismantled.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Not sure if contract situations will matter here, but I have to think that if Cuban isn't careful, Kyrie will poison the well so thoroughly he'll have Luka wantingout as well. In fact, I wonder if, with the horrid roster moves and the inability to field a defensively competitive team, Luka isn't already thinking that way.

Within two years that Brooklyn team was completely dismantled.
There is already chatter around Doncic though it clearly hasn't been substantiated. This whole situation is playing out in the worst way for the Mavs.

If your last best hope for retaining a foundational star is Kyrie Irving, you are down bad. We are now beyond that outcome.
 

nighthob

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There is already chatter around Doncic though it clearly hasn't been substantiated. This whole situation is playing out in the worst way for the Mavs.
It will be hilarious when the Nets trade Bridges, Johnson, some other guy, and a bunch of Phoenix firsts for Luka as Kyzuzu is demolishing the Suns and Booker demands a trade.
 

nighthob

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So are we now going to be talking shit about Kyrie on a thread called "Kyrie Irving: Hardwood Magician"? If so, can we change this thread's name to "World B. Flat: the trials and tribulations of a generational leader"? If not, can we at least have the discussion revert back to Kyrie is dirty rotten no good and we have schadenfreude...?
I think that Kyzuzu's ability to make title contenders disappear in a puff of smoke is one of the greatest magical tricks there is.
 

Kliq

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Paying Kyrie solves zero issues and only exacerbates the problems for Dallas as he continues to age. It would be an insanely dumb move to do. You are better off trading Luka for maximum value.
 

bigq

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"I think it's going to be at least four, if not the full five for $272 million," said Tim MacMahon on The Hoop Collective Podcast:eek:

The only question now is how long will it be before Luka asks out?

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/271084/Mavericks-May-Need-To-Offer-At-Least-Four-Year-Max-To-Re-Sign-Kyrie-Irving
Buried in this article about why the Mavericks did not re-sign Brunson, Cuban is not telegraphing his intentions.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/36084951/mark-cuban-mavericks-get-shot-re-signing-jalen-brunson

"I'd love to have him stay for sure," Cuban said. "I'd love to have him. I want him to stay for sure, and I think we have a good shot. I think he's happy here. He tells me he's happy here, and I get along great with him. I think he's a good guy. All I can tell you is everything I thought I knew about Kyrie because of everything I read was 100% wrong."

The Mavs can offer Irving as much as $272 million over five years, more than any other team due to possessing his Bird rights. But Cuban was noncommittal when asked if the Mavs could be outbid for Irving in free agency this summer.

"I don't know," Cuban said. "I guess there's always too high a price, depending, but now with the new CBA, it's a different world."
 

mauf

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Paying Kyrie solves zero issues and only exacerbates the problems for Dallas as he continues to age. It would be an insanely dumb move to do. You are better off trading Luka for maximum value.
You can’t trade a top-5 player with 3 years of control remaining and expect fans to continue to buy tickets. I’m not sure what the Mavs’ path to near-term contention looks like, assuming it even exists, but they have no choice but to try.
 

Ed Hillel

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For some context, their pick this season is Top 10 protected, and they are currently tied for 10th pick position and losing the tiebreaker.
 

TripleOT

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Portnoy would be lucky to score one point more than Kyrie did in the 2023 playoffs.

Stick to pizza reviews and cashing out of Barstool.