Knicks/Raptors trade. OG for RJ/Quickley

SteveF

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Interesting trade. Barrett and Quickley are much better ball handlers. Anunoby is really just a catch and shoot guy, but that perimeter defense gets stouter.

Probably like this trade better for Toronto. This should help their shooting issues, though who knows with Barrett. Quickley could start for the if they wanted, depending on how you feel about point Barnes. Poetl, Siakim, Barnes, Barrett, Quickley is a workable starting 5.

Edit: The trade raises Toronto's floor. I don't think this trade changes how I feel about the Knicks ceiling. But maybe this changes the calculus on a Mitchell trade for them? Maybe Anunoby makes a Mitchell, Brunson backcourt more playable?
 
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JakeRae

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Here’s DARKO for all four players involved. I don’t have a point here and am defaulting to DARKO for ease of use/comparison.

75853
 

Mooch

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I love Quickley’s game and RJ has his moments. Not sure how this improves the Knicks that much.
 

axx

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The real question is... can Toronto beat the Pistons without the players involved in this trade?
 

radsoxfan

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Here’s DARKO for all four players involved. I don’t have a point here and am defaulting to DARKO for ease of use/comparison.

View attachment 75853
I think the main point of the DARKO graph is further confirmation that RJ Barrett stinks.

He’s due 26, 28, and 30M the next 3 seasons. Not huge $ these days but he’s just not good.

Full trade eval should of course include OG fit on the Knicks and Quickley’s upside (plus future contract).

But the value of Barrett to the Raptors is minimal IMO. Frankly I think they could have sold higher on OG a year or two ago, but maybe they love Quickley or something.
 

radsoxfan

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The real question is... can Toronto beat the Pistons without the players involved in this trade?
Haha good point.

I think Utah behind old friend Kelly Olynyk recently beat Detroit (in Detroit) while missing half their team.

So have to imagine Detroit is very capable of another loss in this one.
 

RG33

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I think the main point of the DARKO graph is further confirmation that RJ Barrett stinks.

He’s due 26, 28, and 30M the next 3 seasons. Not huge $ these days but he’s just not good.

Full trade eval should of course include OG fit on the Knicks and Quickley’s upside (plus future contract).

But the value of Barrett to the Raptors is minimal IMO. Frankly I think they could have sold higher on OG a year or two ago, but maybe they love Quickley or something.
Yeah, at first glance this trade feels like Toronto was targeting Quickley much more so than Barrett. Feels like a pretty light return overall for Toronto and a solid move for the Knicks as the OGs are harder to find than the Quickleys.

It doesn’t feel like a real game changer for either team though in terms of upside.
 

lovegtm

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...
But the value of Barrett to the Raptors is minimal IMO. Frankly I think they could have sold higher on OG a year or two ago, but maybe they love Quickley or something.
Yes, feels like the classic thing where a team puts out a strong negotiating position wrt a player (Lots Of Picks!) but doesn't have a real plan.

Masai's work with FVV and OG has been kinda bad; we'll see what happens with Siakam.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Seems like a trade that doesn't really move the needle for either team, and the real winners are OG and Quickley, both of whom will I'm sure will get massive offers to re-sign with NYK and TOR, respectively.

The best part of the trade is that OG didn't end up with someone like PHI, which would have made them much more formidable (depending on who they had to send out).
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah, at first glance this trade feels like Toronto was targeting Quickley much more so than Barrett. Feels like a pretty light return overall for Toronto and a solid move for the Knicks as the OGs are harder to find than the Quickleys.

It doesn’t feel like a real game changer for either team though in terms of upside.
Dan Greenberg was on Celtics Beat the other day and pointed out that in today's NBA landscape, a smart GM who can't or doesn't want to re-sign a player needs to deal that player with at least one guaranteed year left on his contract, otherwise his value plummets. (He was talking about this in context of DWhite - that if the Cs can't re-sign White to an extension, the longer they wait to trade him, the less return they are getting).

CHI is finding that out with DeRozen and now TOR found that out with FVV (for whom they got nothing), OG, and also with Siakam, who apparently does not have a robust trade market.
 

JakeRae

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Seems like a trade that doesn't really move the needle for either team, and the real winners are OG and Quickley, both of whom will I'm sure will get massive offers to re-sign with NYK and TOR, respectively.

The best part of the trade is that OG didn't end up with someone like PHI, which would have made them much more formidable (depending on who they had to send out).
Quickley is an RFA and probably not a max player, so whether he gets a huge offer or is forced to play the RFA game is uncertain. His RFA status was probably a big part of the draw for Toronto here. I guess it’s possible they think they can get more out of Barrett than he’s shown so far too.
 

Euclis20

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Dan Greenberg was on Celtics Beat the other day and pointed out that in today's NBA landscape, a smart GM who can't or doesn't want to re-sign a player needs to deal that player with at least one guaranteed year left on his contract, otherwise his value plummets. (He was talking about this in context of DWhite - that if the Cs can't re-sign White to an extension, the longer they wait to trade him, the less return they are getting).

CHI is finding that out with DeRozen and now TOR found that out with FVV (for whom they got nothing), OG, and also with Siakam, who apparently does not have a robust trade market.
We'll see as we get close to the deadline. Woj just a few days ago said there were going to be more buyers than sellers at the deadline, and even a few months away from free agency there has to be reasonable interest in an all-star level big wing with title experience.

I think the main point of the DARKO graph is further confirmation that RJ Barrett stinks.

He’s due 26, 28, and 30M the next 3 seasons. Not huge $ these days but he’s just not good.

Full trade eval should of course include OG fit on the Knicks and Quickley’s upside (plus future contract).

But the value of Barrett to the Raptors is minimal IMO. Frankly I think they could have sold higher on OG a year or two ago, but maybe they love Quickley or something.
Yeah Barrett got the Jaylen Brown extension, but never made the all-star leap to go along with it. Worth a gamble by the Raptors, I doubt they've got much better to spend the same money on over the next couple years.
 

the moops

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I think this is a clear win for New York. Barrett was not very good and playing Quickley with Brunson doesn’t work. OG slides right into the Barrett role as a way better version. And getting Achiuwa as well is not nothing. With Robinson out for the year NY needed another center.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Quickley is an RFA and probably not a max player, so whether he gets a huge offer or is forced to play the RFA game is uncertain. His RFA status was probably a big part of the draw for Toronto here. I guess it’s possible they think they can get more out of Barrett than he’s shown so far too.
Rumor had it that IQ was looking for 4/$100. Bobby Marks pegged him at 4/$85M but from what I am seeing, it sounds like the market for IQ may be robust given the way he's been playing. https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10100162-knicks-rumors-immanuel-quickley-was-offered-non-guaranteed-contract-no-incentives.amp.html

I get NYK probably sees him in a bench role since they had Brunson and NYK couldn't let him hit the open market so the trade makes sense from both sides but I think both NYK and TOR are going to have to pony up to keep the respective players. Which is good for the players!
 

Just a bit outside

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I think it is a decent move for both teams. OG fits better with the Knicks and Achiuwa can play over Gibson. Toronto gets a young guard to see up close and a flyer on RJ.
 

mcpickl

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Quickley is an RFA and probably not a max player, so whether he gets a huge offer or is forced to play the RFA game is uncertain. His RFA status was probably a big part of the draw for Toronto here. I guess it’s possible they think they can get more out of Barrett than he’s shown so far too.
I think this is the most interesting part of this trade.

Masai is signaling he's not looking to take pick packages, bottom out and try to start over.

Taking on two guys with term, in Quickleys case his RFA rights so if he wants to get paid this summer it'll very likely be in Toronto, so they don't have to try and convince them to sign/stay like Kawhi and Van Vleet.

Toronto hasn't been a free agent destination so might as well get guys locked in.

Likely changes what we should expect in a Siakam trade, more likely it's players than pick packages.

I really hate RJs fit with Barnes though. Everything Masai should be doing is fitting pieces around Barnes.
 

benhogan

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I'm low-key happy OG didn't end up on a title contender like OKC, LAL, etc

I think this is a clear win for New York. Barrett was not very good and playing Quickley with Brunson doesn’t work. OG slides right into the Barrett role as a way better version. And getting Achiuwa as well is not nothing. With Robinson out for the year NY needed another center.
Yea that has been my initial reaction.

OG fits their system better.

Knicks have all these tweeners (Donte, Hart, Grimes) that will let them play bigger
 

jon abbey

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playing Quickley with Brunson doesn’t work.
Just to push back on this a bit, Brunson/Quickley/Hart/Randle has been the best 4 man combo in the league so far this year.

"The Knicks outscore opponents by 26.5 points per 100 possessions this season when Brunson, Quickley, Hart and Randle share the floor, according to Cleaning the Glass. The defense is elite. The offense turns into the Kevin Durant Golden State Warriors if they had invented a time machine and added Michael Jordan."

https://theathletic.com/5166089/2023/12/28/knicks-best-lineup-immanuel-quickley/

That being said, somehow I agree with you anyway.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Rumor had it that IQ was looking for 4/$100. Bobby Marks pegged him at 4/$85M but from what I am seeing, it sounds like the market for IQ may be robust given the way he's been playing. https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10100162-knicks-rumors-immanuel-quickley-was-offered-non-guaranteed-contract-no-incentives.amp.html

I get NYK probably sees him in a bench role since they had Brunson and NYK couldn't let him hit the open market so the trade makes sense from both sides but I think both NYK and TOR are going to have to pony up to keep the respective players. Which is good for the players!
This sounds like a deal put together by the agents and sold to the respective teams.
 

mcpickl

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Knicks just cleared about 10M of their cap sheet for July 1st here as well.

If they don't add any more money this year, if they renounce all their FAs but Anunoby and McBride, they might be able to sign a FA in the 8M range with cap space, then sign another around 6M with the room exception this summer.

Gives them quite a bit more flexibility if they want it.
 

lovegtm

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Yeah Barrett got the Jaylen Brown extension, but never made the all-star leap to go along with it. Worth a gamble by the Raptors, I doubt they've got much better to spend the same money on over the next couple years.
While I agree, this also shows why these sub-max rookie extensions for younger guys are so valuable for teams to lock in.

The Knicks got a freeroll at Barrett making a leap, and then were still were able to trade him as slightly positive matching salary when that wasn't happening.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Feels like there's another shoe to drop. Knicks are suddenly very shallow behind Brunson.
yeah, I view this deal as a table-setter for the Knicks cashing in picks for a second impact guy (using fournier’s salary as a big part of the salary ballast)
 

BigSoxFan

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yeah, I view this deal as a table-setter for the Knicks cashing in picks for a second impact guy (using fournier’s salary as a big part of the salary ballast)
His salary lines up perfectly with Dejounte Murray who has been mentioned here. That would be a nice second move for them, if Atlanta is willing.
 

TripleOT

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His salary lines up perfectly with Dejounte Murray who has been mentioned here. That would be a nice second move for them, if Atlanta is willing.
So the Hawks bail on the Murray experiment and try to recoup some of the draft capital they have to ship out to the Spurs? Atlanta traded for the wrong Spur veteran guard. Derrick White would have been perfect playing with Trae Young.
 

BigSoxFan

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Interesting. But can Murray play with Brunson any more than Trae? They seem like similar players to me.
Same issue arises because Murray is best with the ball in his hand but there’s your Plan B for a Brunson injury, if you’re the Knicks. Murray, to his credit, is playing pretty well with Atlanta. Has even gotten his 3 point % to about 38% this year.
 

BigSoxFan

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So the Hawks bail on the Murray experiment and try to recoup some of the draft capital they have to ship out to the Spurs? Atlanta traded for the wrong Spur veteran guard. Derrick White would have been perfect playing with Trae Young.
Yeah, this is the unknown part because the cost to get Murray was extensive so they may just try to lock him up as an asset. It would also have to be part of a larger reset, I think.
 

benhogan

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This is setting up to be a very busy trade season as teams combine contracts for bigger pieces.

Optimistic someone usable might fall into the Celtic's lap
 

TripleOT

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The Knicks gave away Obi Toppin for two second round picks, and he’s averaging a point every two minutes as a starter in Indy with a gaudy 67% 3FG, shooting (dunking?) a league leading 75% from two and a respectable 37.6% from three

I wasn’t happy when Jacob bailed on my alma mater URI after one season for Kentucky. He‘s a 6’9” live bodied wing type that probably doesn‘t shoot enough to become an NBA player,
 

jon abbey

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The Knicks gave away Obi Toppin for two second round picks, and he’s averaging a point every two minutes as a starter in Indy with a gaudy 67% 3FG, shooting (dunking?) a league leading 75% from two and a respectable 37.6% from three
Yeah, they gave him away because his contract is coming up and they didn't want to pay him as he's a very unusual player and a bad fit. You can't rely on him in a halfcourt offense or to play consistent D, he is a great fit for IND because they have so many offensive weapons that he is always open, but even with that, I saw that they moved him to coming off the bench the other day. I loved loved loved watching him in NY, the rare player whose misses are more entertaining than some player's makes, but I think the jury is still very much out as to his role on a winning team.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Regardless of what the next move is, the Knicks likely improved with this trade and in Quickley the Raps now have offensive help with a bit of upside.

It seems like playing the Knicks is never easy for an opponent - this deal makes it feel even tougher going forward. OG just feels like a Thibs type of player to me.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Yeah, they gave him away because his contract is coming up and they didn't want to pay him as he's a very unusual player and a bad fit. You can't rely on him in a halfcourt offense or to play consistent D, he is a great fit for IND because they have so many offensive weapons that he is always open, but even with that, I saw that they moved him to coming off the bench the other day. I loved loved loved watching him in NY, the rare player whose misses are more entertaining than some player's makes, but I think the jury is still very much out as to his role on a winning team.
More objectively, it is pretty clear Toppin a) didn’t fit with Thibs limited view of a big (which is focused on a specific defensive fit) and b) may well
be worth more than Knicks traded him for. That doesn’t make it a bad deal as Thibs and his system remain in place…but this year has made the deal look shakier, if anything.
 

jon abbey

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More objectively, it is pretty clear Toppin a) didn’t fit with Thibs limited view of a big (which is focused on a specific defensive fit) and b) may well
be worth more than Knicks traded him for. That doesn’t make it a bad deal as Thibs and his system remain in place…but this year has made the deal look shakier, if anything.
I don't think that contradicts anything I said, just as he was an odd fit in NY, he is a good fit in IND on a team that is the closest thing to a Paul Westhead team that the league has seen in a while.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yeah, they gave him away because his contract is coming up and they didn't want to pay him as he's a very unusual player and a bad fit. You can't rely on him in a halfcourt offense or to play consistent D, he is a great fit for IND because they have so many offensive weapons that he is always open, but even with that, I saw that they moved him to coming off the bench the other day. I loved loved loved watching him in NY, the rare player whose misses are more entertaining than some player's makes, but I think the jury is still very much out as to his role on a winning team.
Yeah, if you wanted to build a player to contradict everything that Thibs wants out of his big you would come pretty close to building Obi Toppin. He's like Nesmith in a way, and like many others, who need that second stop to connect with a system after the first one didn't work out.
 

m0ckduck

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I agree with the gist of the Ringer's analysis of the trade. Anunoby is a perfect "scarf player: like the C's guards, he's one of the rare top-50ish players who doesn't need the ball and can be a perfect complementary starter to Brunson and whatever ball-dominant wing or big that the Knicks plan on adding next summer. In sum, he can be a foundational player for some future 55-win version of the Knicks. And while the trade doesn't immediately improve them and it's not clear if they can execute the long-term plan successfully, one at least knows where they are trying to go with this trade.

If you zoom way in on the deal, it looks ok for the Raptors in that they got more aggregate talent than they gave up. But it's hard to see where this leaves them long-term. Barrett and Quickly are going to get expensive, and aren't going to be meaningful contributors to a future Raptors contender built around Barnes, who is only 22. So, I don't get the point, compared to some of the deals that were reportedly on the table last year for three first round picks.

Clear win NYK, IMO.
 

lovegtm

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I agree with the gist of the Ringer's analysis of the trade. Anunoby is a perfect "scarf player: like the C's guards, he's one of the rare top-50ish players who doesn't need the ball and can be a perfect complementary starter to Brunson and whatever ball-dominant wing or big that the Knicks plan on adding next summer. In sum, he can be a foundational player for some future 55-win version of the Knicks. And while the trade doesn't immediately improve them and it's not clear if they can execute the long-term plan successfully, one at least knows where they are trying to go with this trade.

If you zoom way in on the deal, it looks ok for the Raptors in that they got more aggregate talent than they gave up. But it's hard to see where this leaves them long-term. Barrett and Quickly are going to get expensive, and aren't going to be meaningful contributors to a future Raptors contender built around Barnes, who is only 22. So, I don't get the point, compared to some of the deals that were reportedly on the table last year for three first round picks.

Clear win NYK, IMO.
If you really like Quickley, then "expensive" doesn't matter. You pay $21-25M for your lead guard, and are positioned to add one more big piece around Barnes after that.
 

jon abbey

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Barrett and Quickly are going to get expensive, and aren't going to be meaningful contributors to a future Raptors contender built around Barnes, who is only 22.
Barrett and Quickley are just 23 and 24 respectively so certainly could fit with Barnes if they perform. TOR is rolling the dice on Quickley becoming Maxey-lite without Brunson ahead of him and Barrett blossoming in his hometown, I think either or both of those is very possible. It certainly seems like they held onto Anunoby for too long, same as they did Van Vleet and are still doing with Siakam.

From NY's side, Anunoby's debut yesterday against MIN was exciting. I hadn't ever focused on him much, but he brings a toughness that NY didn't quite have before (they have a lot of tough individual players but somehow the whole was less than the sum of its parts). He primarily guarded Anthony Edwards yesterday, who had 35 points but a lot of those were with OGA on the bench, and Edwards was scoreless in the second quarter when NY blew the game open.

In halfcourt defense, Anunoby's presence seemed to allow DiVincenzo more freedom to cause havoc, the combo of them at the 2 and 3 on defense was something NY fans haven't seen in a long time.

And in halfcourt offense, NY was cutting to the basket without the ball way more than they have in a long time, it's not a coincidence that Brunson had a career high 14 assists even against the very tough MIN defense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Barrett and Quickley are just 23 and 24 respectively so certainly could fit with Barnes if they perform. TOR is rolling the dice on Quickley becoming Maxey-lite without Brunson ahead of him and Barrett blossoming in his hometown, I think either or both of those is very possible. It certainly seems like they held onto Anunoby for too long, same as they did Van Vleet and are still doing with Siakam.
Since TOR apparently doesn't want to blow it up, I think IQ is as good as they were going to get for OG so maybe not trading him for draft picks worked out well for a change.

From TOR's perspective, I guess Ujiri is finding out that it's all well and good to draft athletic, long, 6'7+" guys but unless you happen to draft a guy like Tatum, you can't play all of them at once and hope to function in the NBA. I mean yes the NBA is getting to be "positionless" but teams still need players to organize the offensive sets and shoot the ball.

If IQ signs his 4/$110M extension and then takes a step with starter minutes then the trade is a win for TOR. The trade looks good for NYK so maybe one of the rare trades that help both teams.
 

m0ckduck

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TOR is rolling the dice on Quickley becoming Maxey-lite without Brunson ahead of him and Barrett blossoming in his hometown, I think either or both of those is very possible.
This is a good analysis. I need to upwards-adjust my opinion of Quickley a bit. I have him mentally slotted as an "instant-offense but undersized on D" guy, for which I'm guilty partly of typecasting him based on his 6th man role and partly on his frail stature entering the league as a rookie. It's true that he's become a solid 2-way guy, so there's potential to the Maxey comp.

Still, I think there's considerable risk that he winds up resigning for starter money but is unable to extrapolate the same productivity that he's had in his bench role. I guess in this sense, it's good that TOR did the deal early so they have a longer audition period in which to evaluale him.
 

Auger34

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Since TOR apparently doesn't want to blow it up, I think IQ is as good as they were going to get for OG so maybe not trading him for draft picks worked out well for a change.

From TOR's perspective, I guess Ujiri is finding out that it's all well and good to draft athletic, long, 6'7+" guys but unless you happen to draft a guy like Tatum, you can't play all of them at once and hope to function in the NBA. I mean yes the NBA is getting to be "positionless" but teams still need players to organize the offensive sets and shoot the ball.

If IQ signs his 4/$110M extension and then takes a step with starter minutes then the trade is a win for TOR. The trade looks good for NYK so maybe one of the rare trades that help both teams.
I think they are doing a modified "blow it up"...which could end up blowing up in their faces. Ujiri clearly thinks these 20-24 year olds are more valuable than mid to late 1sts, which is probably true. The issue is that the players Ujiri is getting aren't on rookie scale contracts, which could lead to a very expensive team in the middle of the pack doing nothing.

Will be interesting to see what he does with Siakam. On the outside looking in, it seems like they have to move him but Ujiri has been running counter to public opinion for a bit now