Jrue the Damaja

JoeSuit

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Marcus makes my all-time favorite team to watch but I take Jrue over him every day and twice on Sundays. Maybe three times on playoff days. You got the occasion bad Marcus as part of his package. Jrue is more calming/steady and a better player on both ends. This team needs that more so than the Marcus good (and occasionally bad) chaos.

edit: Plus what bsboy says above. That's a realistic happening.
 

Devizier

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Obligatory DARKO comparison here. Personally, I think this underrates Jrue and overrates Smart because Jrue is a much better individual offensive player while Smart really depended on the Jays’ gravity.
Jrue also had a pretty rough offensive start to his career. He had that breakout his last season in Philly but took another step in NO and honestly another with the Bucks.
 

NomarsFool

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At least his last season with us, I feel like Smart was more hero ball, kind of high risk gamble type of defensive player. Basically, taking charges and lunging for steals, etc. Jrue seems like the more type of defensive player that goes a little bit unnoticed in the sense that a lot of what he does, making players go off their line and forcing them into the help is not the sort of stuff that makes highlight reels (last night being of course the exception). On offense, I never feel like Jrue tries to go coast and coast and misses the layup. That is something I feel like was a Smart staple, although I’m sure it didn’t happen as often as I think it did.
 

lovegtm

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How much better than Smart is Holiday? He's significantly better on offense than Smart, and I see zero decrease in quality of D, and in many ways I see Jrue as the superior defender too.
Jrue has been significantly better for awhile, on both ends. Smart hasn't been able to D up smaller guards for years, and Jrue is still elite at it at age 33. At the same time, he can play all the way up the positional spectrum the way Smart can, and does the same impressive things in help defense.

Jrue is just a straight-up better player, and has been financially compensated as such since his Pelicans days.
 

JoeSuit

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Jrue is now on his fourth team and arrived at the last three via trades. Perhaps if you were uninformed and squinted hard you may think that rings "journeyman" or worse, "malcontent". While I'm sure a lot of the trade factoring is salary fits and contract status and thousands of pounds of other considerations, I do think he's one of those players that teams actively want, POBOBS included for sure - He was targeted as a get. When the inevitable skills begin to diminish, I think he'll still maintain fairly significant value.
 

lovegtm

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Jrue is now on his fourth team and arrived at the last three via trades. Perhaps if you were uninformed and squinted hard you may think that rings "journeyman" or worse, "malcontent". While I'm sure a lot of the trade factoring is salary fits and contract status and thousands of pounds of other considerations, I do think he's one of those players that teams actively want, POBOBS included for sure - He was targeted as a get. When the inevitable skills begin to diminish, I think he'll still maintain fairly significant value.
As I mentioned upthread, he's always been well-compensated contractually and teams have always had to give up a fair amount in assets to get him.
 

Jimbodandy

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As I mentioned upthread, he's always been well-compensated contractually and teams have always had to give up a fair amount in assets to get him.
Yeah Lebron has moved around too. Everyone knows that he's not a problem. Teams went looking for Jrue. It's not like there were draft picks stapled to him.
 

reggiecleveland

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Most importantly, the late game hero ball from Marcus has been taken away. That game one shot would’ve been him and not Jaylen.
I am not sure about the game 1 shot, but the rest I agree 100%. It is even more important than just eliminating a few bad shots though, in that Jrue is so much better at moving the ball and getting the Js rolling.
 

Kliq

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I am not sure about the game 1 shot, but the rest I agree 100%. It is even more important than just eliminating a few bad shots though, in that Jrue is so much better at moving the ball and getting the Js rolling.
Jrue is a legit point guard and a very good one at that, which is something Marcus never was.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Since we have so much time before the game, I'm sure every player on both teams will get some feature somewhere. I'm still waiting for the Luke Kornet long-form article.

But Windhorst wrote a piece today on Jrue here: NBA Finals 2024, Boston Celtics vs. Dallas Mavericks - The twists and turns that led Jrue Holiday back to the Finals - ESPN .

The only thing that hasn't been published before is why MIL couldn't control where Jrue ended up (POR insisted that it would not do a three-team deal as it wanted the market to develop) and Jrue was able to create a list of teams where he wanted to end up, and that list did not include IND or NYK.

Jrue and Brunson would have made a helluva back court.
 

slamminsammya

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At times during the season i thought Jrue looked a little slower and less intense than his reputation. i thought maybe it was age. he was a fucking wrecking ball last night. he was giving it even in garbage time. i love this guy
 

Reverend

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This guy is so awesome. We're lucky to have him.
I know it’s not how the specific trads sequences worked, but last year, adding White and Brogdon seemed amazing. To then go, Eh, White is amazing but Brogdon isn’t quite right—let’s replace him with Jrue! is a damn revelation.

(Oh, and let’s get KP in The Process (pun intended) too… :p )


*I love the story (possibly apocryphal?) that Brad used to periodically cruise into Danny’s office and ask if they could get Holiday.
 

lovegtm

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Loving how Jrue cruised at 75% effort all season, worked his way into the 1st round, and has gotten progressively better and more intense as the playoffs have gone on.

That ability to pace himself bodes well for the back end of his upcoming contract.
 

m0ckduck

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Just heard this on the Timpf G2 breakdown: Jrue had 26 points, ZERO of which came from iso, pick and roll or post-up. IOW, everything came within the flow of the offense.
 

Montana Fan

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Is Milwaukee the worst team in the league at trading.

November 2020 - Milwaukee acquires Jrue Holiday For Eric Bledsoe plus 2 FR picks plus 2 pickswaps. New Orleans acquires right to swap 2024 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2025 1st-rd pick is MIL own New Orleans acquires right to swap 2026 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2027 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2023. (Note - bunch of other shit happened too).

September 2023 - Milwaukee trades Jrue Holiday plus 2 FT picks plus a pickswap for Damian Lillard. 2029 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2028 1st-rd pick is a swap 2030 1st-rd pick is a swap. (Note: bunch of other shit happened too).

All this while leaving Jrue available for the Celts to quickly pluck once Portland got him.
 

lovegtm

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Is Milwaukee the worst team in the league at trading.

November 2020 - Milwaukee acquires Jrue Holiday For Eric Bledsoe plus 2 FR picks plus 2 pickswaps. New Orleans acquires right to swap 2024 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2025 1st-rd pick is MIL own New Orleans acquires right to swap 2026 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2027 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2023. (Note - bunch of other shit happened too).

September 2023 - Milwaukee trades Jrue Holiday plus 2 FT picks plus a pickswap for Damian Lillard. 2029 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2028 1st-rd pick is a swap 2030 1st-rd pick is a swap. (Note: bunch of other shit happened too).

All this while leaving Jrue available for the Celts to quickly pluck once Portland got him.
It's....not great.

When you have defensive players like Jrue, Giannis, and Lopez, and a top-5 scoring talent in Giannis flanked by Middleton, Jrue, and Ted Cruz, you can afford to go after a more microwave scoring type, pay less in assets, and handle the defensive hit. Mortgaging remaining picks for Lillard while losing Jrue is an awful use of resources.

The problem, of course, is that they needed Giannis to sign an extension, and Giannis needed a splashy trade to do so. It turns out that Giannis might want to leave GMing to the professionals.....
 

bakahump

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Irony would be if GA asks out after this year (or next) after Dame, Lopez, Middleton get older and start to/suck more.

"Thanks for indulging me....I think I will be leaving now."

I think Portland was smart.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Is Milwaukee the worst team in the league at trading.

November 2020 - Milwaukee acquires Jrue Holiday For Eric Bledsoe plus 2 FR picks plus 2 pickswaps. New Orleans acquires right to swap 2024 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2025 1st-rd pick is MIL own New Orleans acquires right to swap 2026 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2027 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2023. (Note - bunch of other shit happened too).

September 2023 - Milwaukee trades Jrue Holiday plus 2 FT picks plus a pickswap for Damian Lillard. 2029 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2028 1st-rd pick is a swap 2030 1st-rd pick is a swap. (Note: bunch of other shit happened too).

All this while leaving Jrue available for the Celts to quickly pluck once Portland got him.
The November 2020 trade was expensive but they won a title so I think everyone would do that against in a cocaine heartbeat.

And since the Dame trade got Giannis to sign an extension, it's probably still a winner unless Giannis or Dame get so fed up one (or both) asks out.
 

m0ckduck

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The November 2020 trade was expensive but they won a title so I think everyone would do that against in a cocaine heartbeat.

And since the Dame trade got Giannis to sign an extension, it's probably still a winner unless Giannis or Dame get so fed up one (or both) asks out.
Agree 100%.

I only wonder if a more talented front office could have talked Giannis into staying pat, based on the fact that (a) lots of things had to go wrong for Miami to beat them in the first round (notably Giannis' injury), (b) Middleton is likely to be better moving forward (proven true by 2024 playoffs), (c) the best move is to keep Jrue and Ted Cruz and trade lesser draft capital to add a guy who can add instant offense off the bench. This way, you have a championship calibre team so long as Giannis and Khris are providing 1-2 offense, and you have a contingency plan in case you need more scoring in case of injury.

I imagine that Milwaukee is so terrified by the idea of Giannis demanding a trade that they jump the moment he barks, rather than talking it through with the guy.
 

lovegtm

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On the plus side for the Bucks, Dame and Kris will be a year older and they have no assets at all, so they have that to look forward to.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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For someone who has the highest win percentage in the NBA over the last four years, Jrue doesn't get much attention. I'm sure he appreciates it.

Saw that Jrue was first player in NBA history to win a championship in his first season with two different teams.

Also, saw this interview with Jrue's performance coach here: "He squats 285 pounds, 20 times": Jrue Holiday earns trainer Mike Guevara's rave reviews after powering Celtics to Banner 18 (Exclusive) (sportskeeda.com) . From the interview:

I’ve been doing this for 16 years. In my career, he’s approached the off-court stuff probably more intensely than the on-court stuff better than anybody I’ve worked with across the board in the NFL and the NBA. I always ask him, ‘Are you going to be training like this after you play? You take it so seriously and you work so hard!’ He said, ‘Mike G, probably not. (laughs). But the style of play and what I bring to the table requires me to work this hard.’ If you watch those videos, he’s squatting 285 pounds, 20 times. There’s not a single person on this planet that can do that besides him.
 

m0ckduck

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A good reminder from KOC's Ringer column today, about off-season plans and unintended consequences:

One year ago, the Celtics entered the offseason knowing that they needed to make changes after falling short in the playoffs for the ninth straight year. League sources say that Boston’s top priority was acquiring Kristaps Porzingis
[....]
But as was widely reported at the time, the Celtics originally agreed to a deal that would have sent Malcolm Brogdon to the Clippers, instead of Smart to the Grizzlies. Concerns about Brogdon’s health caused the Clippers to back out, forcing Boston to pivot to a Smart-based deal
[....]
But there’s a detail missing from that initial saga: Sources from around the league say that once that KP for Brogdon deal was complete, Smart still would have been sent to the Grizzlies for Tyus Jones and two firsts.

So even though it initially appeared that the Celtics would have acquired Porzingis without giving up Smart, he was going to be dealt anyway. If those two original deals had happened as Boston planned, there would have been no realistic way for the Celtics to acquire Jrue Holiday once he unexpectedly became available later in the summer. The Celtics would have ended up with KP and Jones instead.
Like many fans, I suspect, I tend to think of the KP / Holiday deals in isolation and to conclude that the Brogdon version of the former would have been a slightly better deal than the eventual Smart permutation. But this completely overlooks the fact that the Brogdon version of the trade could have been a disaster— potentially, in trophy equity— had it led to an immediate Smart deal and left us with not enough trade equity to acquire Jrue. (Yes, I'm purposefully being dramatic in my choice of the word 'disaster'... maybe they would have won anyway with Tyus Jones and two picks... but, beware the butterfly effect is all I'm saying).
 

DeadlySplitter

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There was definitely a hole on this team with just the KP deal as of September last year, but Smart had to go. They got very fortunate that Jrue became available, TimeLord was expendable and attractive enough to make the best trade offer (right before his value cratered!), and that Boston was on Jrue's allow-list out of Portland when NYK and IND were not.

I understand the Bucks needed a high-scoring option and no defense seemed like an acceptable tradeoff in getting Lillard, but Jrue should have been untouchable for the Bucks. And it turns out Lillard may be past his prime already.
 

benhogan

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I understand the Bucks needed a high-scoring option and no defense seemed like an acceptable tradeoff in getting Lillard, but Jrue should have been untouchable for the Bucks. And it turns out Lillard may be past his prime already.
I recall a sizeable faction of this board taking shots at the Buck's post-Lillard deal last year.

Funny enough, not having Jrue around just ruined Brook Lopez's DPOY talk.
Maybe elite perimeter defenders have just as big of an impact on defense as elite post-only defenders?

Anyways, I love this G2 Jrue/White recap

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spgywPojPqM
 

Euclis20

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A good reminder from KOC's Ringer column today, about off-season plans and unintended consequences:


Like many fans, I suspect, I tend to think of the KP / Holiday deals in isolation and to conclude that the Brogdon version of the former would have been a slightly better deal than the eventual Smart permutation. But this completely overlooks the fact that the Brogdon version of the trade could have been a disaster— potentially, in trophy equity— had it led to an immediate Smart deal and left us with not enough trade equity to acquire Jrue. (Yes, I'm purposefully being dramatic in my choice of the word 'disaster'... maybe they would have won anyway with Tyus Jones and two picks... but, beware the butterfly effect is all I'm saying).
The deals that don't happen can be absolutely massive. The biggest one in recent history would have to be Boston supposedly offering 4 future 1st to Charlotte for the 9th pick in the 2015 draft, with the intention to draft Justise Winslow. Charlotte turned it down in order to draft Frank Kaminsky. No one knows (or will admit) exactly which future 1sts, but it's easy to imagine it would've included at least one or both of the 2016 and 2017 1sts used to pick Brown and Tatum. That's a helluva what-if.
 

bosockboy

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The deals that don't happen can be absolutely massive. The biggest one in recent history would have to be Boston supposedly offering 4 future 1st to Charlotte for the 9th pick in the 2015 draft, with the intention to draft Justise Winslow. Charlotte turned it down in order to draft Frank Kaminsky. No one knows (or will admit) exactly which future 1sts, but it's easy to imagine it would've included at least one or both of the 2016 and 2017 1sts used to pick Brown and Tatum. That's a helluva what-if.
I’ve always wondered if that scared Danny shitless that he was so lucky there; and that made him gun shy on deals until he left.
 

Spelunker

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I recall a sizeable faction of this board taking shots at the Buck's post-Lillard deal last year.

Funny enough, not having Jrue around just ruined Brook Lopez's DPOY talk.
Maybe elite perimeter defenders have just as big of an impact on defense as elite post-only defenders?

Anyways, I love this G2 Jrue/White recap

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spgywPojPqM
I'd like it if that guy wasn't so performative vocally. Yikes. That's like the worst over-emphatic yet plummy radio host nonsense. It's like a whole video made by an arena announcer.
 

slamminsammya

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I'd like it if that guy wasn't so performative vocally. Yikes. That's like the worst over-emphatic yet plummy radio host nonsense. It's like a whole video made by an arena announcer.
I had the same reaction, I couldn't get all the way through the video. Its like verbal clickbait. But for the entire video.
 

PedroKsBambino

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A good reminder from KOC's Ringer column today, about off-season plans and unintended consequences:


Like many fans, I suspect, I tend to think of the KP / Holiday deals in isolation and to conclude that the Brogdon version of the former would have been a slightly better deal than the eventual Smart permutation. But this completely overlooks the fact that the Brogdon version of the trade could have been a disaster— potentially, in trophy equity— had it led to an immediate Smart deal and left us with not enough trade equity to acquire Jrue. (Yes, I'm purposefully being dramatic in my choice of the word 'disaster'... maybe they would have won anyway with Tyus Jones and two picks... but, beware the butterfly effect is all I'm saying).
Not really about Jrue, but interesting Celtics were in on Tyus Jones, who is contrary to their "no smurfs" approach since Stevens took over. You almost have to trade PP if you acquire Jones, or flip Jones elsewhere, don't you?
 

m0ckduck

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Not really about Jrue, but interesting Celtics were in on Tyus Jones, who is contrary to their "no smurfs" approach since Stevens took over. You almost have to trade PP if you acquire Jones, or flip Jones elsewhere, don't you?
Yeah, it raises many questions. If the C's keep Jones, they can't start him, right? So, they go White, JB, JT, KP ... and Timelord? I recall now the narrative about how the C's "rediscovered their identity" once Mazzula went back to 2-bigz in the 2023 playoffs, feels like a million years ago. And, yes, I suppose they have to trade Payton Smurf in this scenario. Or, assuming they flip Jones,... are we sure Jones, TL and three 1sts isn't enough to get Jrue later anyway? The article states it as a foregone conclusion but maybe that's just dramatic license.
 

Jimbodandy

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There was definitely a hole on this team with just the KP deal as of September last year, but Smart had to go. They got very fortunate that Jrue became available, TimeLord was expendable and attractive enough to make the best trade offer (right before his value cratered!), and that Boston was on Jrue's allow-list out of Portland when NYK and IND were not.

I understand the Bucks needed a high-scoring option and no defense seemed like an acceptable tradeoff in getting Lillard, but Jrue should have been untouchable for the Bucks. And it turns out Lillard may be past his prime already.
I recall a sizeable faction of this board taking shots at the Buck's post-Lillard deal last year.

Funny enough, not having Jrue around just ruined Brook Lopez's DPOY talk.
Maybe elite perimeter defenders have just as big of an impact on defense as elite post-only defenders?

Anyways, I love this G2 Jrue/White recap

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spgywPojPqM
Before seeing BH's post, I was just about to respond to DS by saying that a bunch of us thought that swapping Lillard for Jrue was going to kill Milwaukee's defense and it did (from 14th to 21st in PA). On the right mix Lillard's lack of defense might not matter so much, but everything has to be right. Not nearly enough impact wings or springy bigs to account for it last year. Not everyone felt this way, but there was a contingent here for sure.

We got lucky that they made that move. Jrue fell into our lap.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Truth weighs in on Rondo v Jrue. PP has Rondo. Rondo probably had a better peak and was better suited to 2008 game. Jrue has hsd better career; is better for today’s game; and probably would have been better in 2008 compared to Rondo playing in today’s game. Prime Rondo + prime Jrue would be an all-time great backcourt though.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sdYwYN8Otxo
I loved Rondo, but that Celtics team thinks it was the greatest of all time.

Rondos defense was inconsistent and he got a great reputation early in his career due in large part to the pieces around him. That man loved gambling on defense, and it would be exposed in today's game.

He also couldn't shoot unless it was a layup, and that's kind of a problem.

He was a wizard with the ball and a ton of fun to watch, but if you switch Jrue with Rondo, that 2008 Celtics team is much better, not worse.
 

BigSoxFan

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I agree that distributor Rondo was a great fit for those Celtics teams, but Jrue is lightyears better and it’s not really close.
Yeah, it’s an interesting discussion but Jrue is the better overall player. Better shooter and better defender. Rondo clearly the better distributor but his inability and downright reluctance to shoot was a real hindrance at times. Of course, national TV Rondo was a real force.

But speaking of Jrue, looking at his stats made me realize that he had 10 years in between all star teams, which I feel has to be close to a record. Anyone know of a longer gap?