Most importantly, the late game hero ball from Marcus has been taken away. That game one shot would’ve been him and not Jaylen.
Jrue also had a pretty rough offensive start to his career. He had that breakout his last season in Philly but took another step in NO and honestly another with the Bucks.Obligatory DARKO comparison here. Personally, I think this underrates Jrue and overrates Smart because Jrue is a much better individual offensive player while Smart really depended on the Jays’ gravity.
Jrue has been significantly better for awhile, on both ends. Smart hasn't been able to D up smaller guards for years, and Jrue is still elite at it at age 33. At the same time, he can play all the way up the positional spectrum the way Smart can, and does the same impressive things in help defense.How much better than Smart is Holiday? He's significantly better on offense than Smart, and I see zero decrease in quality of D, and in many ways I see Jrue as the superior defender too.
As I mentioned upthread, he's always been well-compensated contractually and teams have always had to give up a fair amount in assets to get him.Jrue is now on his fourth team and arrived at the last three via trades. Perhaps if you were uninformed and squinted hard you may think that rings "journeyman" or worse, "malcontent". While I'm sure a lot of the trade factoring is salary fits and contract status and thousands of pounds of other considerations, I do think he's one of those players that teams actively want, POBOBS included for sure - He was targeted as a get. When the inevitable skills begin to diminish, I think he'll still maintain fairly significant value.
Yeah Lebron has moved around too. Everyone knows that he's not a problem. Teams went looking for Jrue. It's not like there were draft picks stapled to him.As I mentioned upthread, he's always been well-compensated contractually and teams have always had to give up a fair amount in assets to get him.
I am not sure about the game 1 shot, but the rest I agree 100%. It is even more important than just eliminating a few bad shots though, in that Jrue is so much better at moving the ball and getting the Js rolling.Most importantly, the late game hero ball from Marcus has been taken away. That game one shot would’ve been him and not Jaylen.
Jrue is a legit point guard and a very good one at that, which is something Marcus never was.I am not sure about the game 1 shot, but the rest I agree 100%. It is even more important than just eliminating a few bad shots though, in that Jrue is so much better at moving the ball and getting the Js rolling.
I know it’s not how the specific trads sequences worked, but last year, adding White and Brogdon seemed amazing. To then go, Eh, White is amazing but Brogdon isn’t quite right—let’s replace him with Jrue! is a damn revelation.This guy is so awesome. We're lucky to have him.
POBOBS told that story himself so I doubt it's apocryphal. I can't imagine a coach who wouldn't want to try to get Jrue.*I love the story (possibly apocryphal?) that Brad used to periodically cruise into Danny’s office and ask if they could get Holiday.
It’s pretty incredible and fortunate that Milwaukee decided to target Lillard. Sometimes the chips just fall into place.POBOBS told that story himself so I doubt it's apocryphal. I can't imagine a coach who wouldn't want to try to get Jrue.
It's....not great.Is Milwaukee the worst team in the league at trading.
November 2020 - Milwaukee acquires Jrue Holiday For Eric Bledsoe plus 2 FR picks plus 2 pickswaps. New Orleans acquires right to swap 2024 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2025 1st-rd pick is MIL own New Orleans acquires right to swap 2026 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2027 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2023. (Note - bunch of other shit happened too).
September 2023 - Milwaukee trades Jrue Holiday plus 2 FT picks plus a pickswap for Damian Lillard. 2029 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2028 1st-rd pick is a swap 2030 1st-rd pick is a swap. (Note: bunch of other shit happened too).
All this while leaving Jrue available for the Celts to quickly pluck once Portland got him.
The November 2020 trade was expensive but they won a title so I think everyone would do that against in a cocaine heartbeat.Is Milwaukee the worst team in the league at trading.
November 2020 - Milwaukee acquires Jrue Holiday For Eric Bledsoe plus 2 FR picks plus 2 pickswaps. New Orleans acquires right to swap 2024 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2025 1st-rd pick is MIL own New Orleans acquires right to swap 2026 1st-rd pick with Milwaukee 2027 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2023. (Note - bunch of other shit happened too).
September 2023 - Milwaukee trades Jrue Holiday plus 2 FT picks plus a pickswap for Damian Lillard. 2029 1st-rd pick is MIL own 2028 1st-rd pick is a swap 2030 1st-rd pick is a swap. (Note: bunch of other shit happened too).
All this while leaving Jrue available for the Celts to quickly pluck once Portland got him.
Agree 100%.The November 2020 trade was expensive but they won a title so I think everyone would do that against in a cocaine heartbeat.
And since the Dame trade got Giannis to sign an extension, it's probably still a winner unless Giannis or Dame get so fed up one (or both) asks out.
Like many fans, I suspect, I tend to think of the KP / Holiday deals in isolation and to conclude that the Brogdon version of the former would have been a slightly better deal than the eventual Smart permutation. But this completely overlooks the fact that the Brogdon version of the trade could have been a disaster— potentially, in trophy equity— had it led to an immediate Smart deal and left us with not enough trade equity to acquire Jrue. (Yes, I'm purposefully being dramatic in my choice of the word 'disaster'... maybe they would have won anyway with Tyus Jones and two picks... but, beware the butterfly effect is all I'm saying).One year ago, the Celtics entered the offseason knowing that they needed to make changes after falling short in the playoffs for the ninth straight year. League sources say that Boston’s top priority was acquiring Kristaps Porzingis
[....]
But as was widely reported at the time, the Celtics originally agreed to a deal that would have sent Malcolm Brogdon to the Clippers, instead of Smart to the Grizzlies. Concerns about Brogdon’s health caused the Clippers to back out, forcing Boston to pivot to a Smart-based deal
[....]
But there’s a detail missing from that initial saga: Sources from around the league say that once that KP for Brogdon deal was complete, Smart still would have been sent to the Grizzlies for Tyus Jones and two firsts.
So even though it initially appeared that the Celtics would have acquired Porzingis without giving up Smart, he was going to be dealt anyway. If those two original deals had happened as Boston planned, there would have been no realistic way for the Celtics to acquire Jrue Holiday once he unexpectedly became available later in the summer. The Celtics would have ended up with KP and Jones instead.
I recall a sizeable faction of this board taking shots at the Buck's post-Lillard deal last year.I understand the Bucks needed a high-scoring option and no defense seemed like an acceptable tradeoff in getting Lillard, but Jrue should have been untouchable for the Bucks. And it turns out Lillard may be past his prime already.
The deals that don't happen can be absolutely massive. The biggest one in recent history would have to be Boston supposedly offering 4 future 1st to Charlotte for the 9th pick in the 2015 draft, with the intention to draft Justise Winslow. Charlotte turned it down in order to draft Frank Kaminsky. No one knows (or will admit) exactly which future 1sts, but it's easy to imagine it would've included at least one or both of the 2016 and 2017 1sts used to pick Brown and Tatum. That's a helluva what-if.A good reminder from KOC's Ringer column today, about off-season plans and unintended consequences:
Like many fans, I suspect, I tend to think of the KP / Holiday deals in isolation and to conclude that the Brogdon version of the former would have been a slightly better deal than the eventual Smart permutation. But this completely overlooks the fact that the Brogdon version of the trade could have been a disaster— potentially, in trophy equity— had it led to an immediate Smart deal and left us with not enough trade equity to acquire Jrue. (Yes, I'm purposefully being dramatic in my choice of the word 'disaster'... maybe they would have won anyway with Tyus Jones and two picks... but, beware the butterfly effect is all I'm saying).
I’ve always wondered if that scared Danny shitless that he was so lucky there; and that made him gun shy on deals until he left.The deals that don't happen can be absolutely massive. The biggest one in recent history would have to be Boston supposedly offering 4 future 1st to Charlotte for the 9th pick in the 2015 draft, with the intention to draft Justise Winslow. Charlotte turned it down in order to draft Frank Kaminsky. No one knows (or will admit) exactly which future 1sts, but it's easy to imagine it would've included at least one or both of the 2016 and 2017 1sts used to pick Brown and Tatum. That's a helluva what-if.
I'd like it if that guy wasn't so performative vocally. Yikes. That's like the worst over-emphatic yet plummy radio host nonsense. It's like a whole video made by an arena announcer.I recall a sizeable faction of this board taking shots at the Buck's post-Lillard deal last year.
Funny enough, not having Jrue around just ruined Brook Lopez's DPOY talk.
Maybe elite perimeter defenders have just as big of an impact on defense as elite post-only defenders?
Anyways, I love this G2 Jrue/White recap
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spgywPojPqM
I had the same reaction, I couldn't get all the way through the video. Its like verbal clickbait. But for the entire video.I'd like it if that guy wasn't so performative vocally. Yikes. That's like the worst over-emphatic yet plummy radio host nonsense. It's like a whole video made by an arena announcer.
Not really about Jrue, but interesting Celtics were in on Tyus Jones, who is contrary to their "no smurfs" approach since Stevens took over. You almost have to trade PP if you acquire Jones, or flip Jones elsewhere, don't you?A good reminder from KOC's Ringer column today, about off-season plans and unintended consequences:
Like many fans, I suspect, I tend to think of the KP / Holiday deals in isolation and to conclude that the Brogdon version of the former would have been a slightly better deal than the eventual Smart permutation. But this completely overlooks the fact that the Brogdon version of the trade could have been a disaster— potentially, in trophy equity— had it led to an immediate Smart deal and left us with not enough trade equity to acquire Jrue. (Yes, I'm purposefully being dramatic in my choice of the word 'disaster'... maybe they would have won anyway with Tyus Jones and two picks... but, beware the butterfly effect is all I'm saying).
Yeah, it raises many questions. If the C's keep Jones, they can't start him, right? So, they go White, JB, JT, KP ... and Timelord? I recall now the narrative about how the C's "rediscovered their identity" once Mazzula went back to 2-bigz in the 2023 playoffs, feels like a million years ago. And, yes, I suppose they have to trade Payton Smurf in this scenario. Or, assuming they flip Jones,... are we sure Jones, TL and three 1sts isn't enough to get Jrue later anyway? The article states it as a foregone conclusion but maybe that's just dramatic license.Not really about Jrue, but interesting Celtics were in on Tyus Jones, who is contrary to their "no smurfs" approach since Stevens took over. You almost have to trade PP if you acquire Jones, or flip Jones elsewhere, don't you?
There was definitely a hole on this team with just the KP deal as of September last year, but Smart had to go. They got very fortunate that Jrue became available, TimeLord was expendable and attractive enough to make the best trade offer (right before his value cratered!), and that Boston was on Jrue's allow-list out of Portland when NYK and IND were not.
I understand the Bucks needed a high-scoring option and no defense seemed like an acceptable tradeoff in getting Lillard, but Jrue should have been untouchable for the Bucks. And it turns out Lillard may be past his prime already.
Before seeing BH's post, I was just about to respond to DS by saying that a bunch of us thought that swapping Lillard for Jrue was going to kill Milwaukee's defense and it did (from 14th to 21st in PA). On the right mix Lillard's lack of defense might not matter so much, but everything has to be right. Not nearly enough impact wings or springy bigs to account for it last year. Not everyone felt this way, but there was a contingent here for sure.I recall a sizeable faction of this board taking shots at the Buck's post-Lillard deal last year.
Funny enough, not having Jrue around just ruined Brook Lopez's DPOY talk.
Maybe elite perimeter defenders have just as big of an impact on defense as elite post-only defenders?
Anyways, I love this G2 Jrue/White recap
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spgywPojPqM
I loved Rondo, but that Celtics team thinks it was the greatest of all time.Truth weighs in on Rondo v Jrue. PP has Rondo. Rondo probably had a better peak and was better suited to 2008 game. Jrue has hsd better career; is better for today’s game; and probably would have been better in 2008 compared to Rondo playing in today’s game. Prime Rondo + prime Jrue would be an all-time great backcourt though.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sdYwYN8Otxo
Yeah, it’s an interesting discussion but Jrue is the better overall player. Better shooter and better defender. Rondo clearly the better distributor but his inability and downright reluctance to shoot was a real hindrance at times. Of course, national TV Rondo was a real force.View attachment 85120
I agree that distributor Rondo was a great fit for those Celtics teams, but Jrue is lightyears better and it’s not really close.