Jrue the Damaja

tims4wins

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So far, behind Jaylen obviously, he's the MVP of the playoffs for the Celtics. Consistent ball pressure, fights through screens, beyond the Haliburton fumble in game 1, has caused countless terrible shots and turnovers. On the offensive side, Jrue has been careful with the ball, shooting great from 3 and has, particularly in the Pacers series, been trouble for opposing defenses in the paint -- backing guys down, getting rebounds and being ready for the late dish from the Jays. Just huge.
Recency bias. He's the MVP or 2nd over the last 5 games. He was a liability over the first 7.
 

dhellers

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Yeah, I wish I could agree and I loved Marcus' fire and teamwork. But the next time I see him believe someone else could do something better than he can would be the first, and he was nowhere near the best player on the team for several years here...
When the Js etc etc got passive, Marcus would step up and try. That might have been a bad idea, but to assert that it was because Marcus Thought He Was Better is not what my lying eyes told me again and again.

That said: with the Js more mature, swapping passionate Marcus for steady Jru is a good thing; plus the fact that Jru is better at that position (d first guard) then Marcus!

So I am not disagreeing with the final outcome; its just that the Marcus diss is too much.

BTW: comparing JH or DW to DJ is a stretch... since when it mattered DJ was incredible, with the coldest ice water in his veins!
 

PedroKsBambino

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When the Js etc etc got passive, Marcus would step up and try. That might have been a bad idea, but to assert that it was because Marcus Thought He Was Better is not what my lying eyes told me again and again.

That said: with the Js more mature, swapping passionate Marcus for steady Jru is a good thing; plus the fact that Jru is better at that position (d first guard) then Marcus!

So I am not disagreeing with the final outcome; its just that the Marcus diss is too much.

BTW: comparing JH or DW to DJ is a stretch. DJ was incredible, with the coldest ice water in his veins when it mattered.
I don’t mean it in the ego sense—I think he was trying to do it for the team. But he consistently overestimated his own abilities as well….and that is the issue.

I love Marcus, to be clear.
 

dhellers

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I don’t mean it in the ego sense—I think he was trying to do it for the team. But he consistently overestimated his own abilities as well….and that is the issue.

I love Marcus, to be clear.
Fair enough, but it does not seem like he was told to stop. Sensing a hesitance and stepping up to do something may not be incorrect if the hesitance is real (even if the results kind of sucked)l!
 

PedroKsBambino

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Fair enough, but it does not seem like he was told to stop. Sensing a hesitance and stepping up to do something may not be incorrect if the hesitance is real (even if the results kind of sucked)l!
I don’t see any basis for assuming anything about what he was and wasn’t told actually. What evidence is there of above?

I love the guy but seems like you’re imputing something we don’t have a shred of evidence to believe - and which both analytics and their willingness to trade him suggest may not be so (though also certainly not conclusively)
 

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Smart took shots when he was open. He just didn’t always hit them.

In Game 7 of the ECF in 2021, people criticized how many shots he missed in the closing minutes as if he had singlehandedly let Miami back into the game. The truth was that the Heat completely stifled the Jays in that stretch and Smart was the only one who was open. And he was wide open. Those were all shots he should’ve taken 100 out of 100 times. He just missed them all.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Smart took shots when he was open. He just didn’t always hit them.

In Game 7 of the ECF in 2021, people criticized how many shots he missed in the closing minutes as if he had singlehandedly let Miami back into the game. The truth was that the Heat completely stifled the Jays in that stretch and Smart was the only one who was open. And he was wide open. Those were all shots he should’ve taken 100 out of 100 times. He just missed them all.
I have no problem with those shots and agree. But would be surprised if most here don’t also agree he had a hero-ball streak as well.
 

dhellers

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I don’t see any basis for assuming anything about what he was and wasn’t told actually. What evidence is there of above?

I love the guy but seems like you’re imputing something we don’t have a shred of evidence to believe - and which both analytics and their willingness to trade him suggest may not be so (though also certainly not conclusively)
Whenever interviewed, Marcus would say "my teammates and coach tell me to keep shooting". Was he lying?

More importantly:

With the maturation of the Js and emergence of DW, it IS credible that management concluded that they didn't need a Marcus who was willing to take on too much.
Hence the gamble on trading injuryProne KP for noLongerWolverine MS was sensible (even ignoring the subsequent miracle of acquiring JH for damaged goods).

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2019/12/31/nba-boston-celtics-marcus-smart-wolverine-nickname/
 

PedroKsBambino

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The trade makes my point, obviously…to me that’s the clearest evidence they knew the gap he had.

On “keep shooting” I’d distinguish between “take open threes” which he should do with “try to create offense” which he did and shouldn’t have done as often especially last two years he was here

Again, all said with love for Marcus and also recognition of where he struggled
 

lovegtm

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The only problem with Marcus was that he wasn't good enough on either end. Jrue is way better in basically all dimensions.

Getting better players is good.
 

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The only problem with Marcus was that he wasn't good enough on either end. Jrue is way better in basically all dimensions.

Getting better players is good.
I think, either due to mileage or nagging injuries, Marcus of last year was not as effective on either end as Marcus from the Ime year. This year's Jrue is better in all dimensions that last year's Marcus, but I'm not sure that was always true.

Another difference: Jrue is a stabilizing force, where Marcus is/was a chaos agent. Marcus might be more of a variance play for that reason.
 

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So, I know we all know the chronology…

…and it’s worth remembering that the trade wasn’t Marcus for Jrue. The trade was Marcus for KP.

And the simplest explanation for why the front office traded Smart has nothing to do with the locker room, or who tended to take open shots at the end of games, or whether you prefer chaos or order.

The simplest explanation is that a team whose three best offensive players are Jayson, Jaylen, and KP has a much higher ceiling than a team whose three main offensive players are Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Having an inside/outside big like KP instead of being entirely dependent on perimeter players just was too big an improvement to pass up.
 

lars10

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Smart took shots when he was open. He just didn’t always hit them.

In Game 7 of the ECF in 2021, people criticized how many shots he missed in the closing minutes as if he had singlehandedly let Miami back into the game. The truth was that the Heat completely stifled the Jays in that stretch and Smart was the only one who was open. And he was wide open. Those were all shots he should’ve taken 100 out of 100 times. He just missed them all.
There was a reason he was wide open and Miami could use his man to double the Js.
 

lars10

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So, I know we all know the chronology…

…and it’s worth remembering that the trade wasn’t Marcus for Jrue. The trade was Marcus for KP.

And the simplest explanation for why the front office traded Smart has nothing to do with the locker room, or who tended to take open shots at the end of games, or whether you prefer chaos or order.

The simplest explanation is that a team whose three best offensive players are Jayson, Jaylen, and KP has a much higher ceiling than a team whose three main offensive players are Jayson, Jaylen, and Smart. Having an inside/outside big like KP instead of being entirely dependent on perimeter players just was too big an improvement to pass up.
I think it also opened up a lot of playing time for White that wasn’t going to be there if Smart was still here.
 

dhellers

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A rap on JH was his mediocre playoff offense; so the two have similarities!

That said: we are basically in agreement on the rationale and wisdom of the trades!

I do wonder why no one else was able outbid the Celts for JH once he got to Portland. Is that as big a steal as DW for pick swap?

PS. God Bless Marcus and I hope he succeeds if/when Memphis gets healthy.
 
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jasail

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I was probably among the biggest Marcus homers around. That said, the player I kept hoping Marcus would mature into was effectively who Jrue Holiday is. The one place where I do miss Marcus is drawing charges. That is something I haven't seen this team do a lot of and I think both the Cavs and the Pacers are ripe for the plucking in that regard. Pretty much every Nesmith drive is an opportunity to hunt a charge.
 

The Mort Report

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A rap on JH was his mediocre playoff offense; so the two have similarities!

That said: we are basically in agreement on the rationale and wisdom of the trades!

I do wonder why no one else was able outbid the Celts for JH once he got to Portland. Is that as big a steal as DW for pick swap?

PS. God Bless Marcus and I hope he succeeds if/when Memphis gets healthy.
From what I remember Portland did him a solid by basically letting him pick his destination
 

JakeRae

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I think it also opened up a lot of playing time for White that wasn’t going to be there if Smart was still here.
Trading Smart was not necessary to give White more minutes. Trading one of Smart or Brogdon might have been (I’d like to think a more secure and established Mazzulla would’ve been able to appropriately limit Brogdon’s minutes, but I also think Stevens actively wanted to trade Brogdon). Smart and White both started. The problem was never playing our 2nd best guard at the expense of the guy who was becoming our best guard. It was playing the injured third best guard too much despite his being clearly worse than the other two. (To be clear, Brogdon was a perfectly good acquisition who helped solve a problem at a reasonable cost. But he was clearly worse than both Smart and White and while he did accept his reduced role as a 6th man, I think there was pressure to find him minutes that created rotation issues.)
 

tims4wins

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Trading Smart was not necessary to give White more minutes. Trading one of Smart or Brogdon might have been (I’d like to think a more secure and established Mazzulla would’ve been able to appropriately limit Brogdon’s minutes, but I also think Stevens actively wanted to trade Brogdon). Smart and White both started. The problem was never playing our 2nd best guard at the expense of the guy who was becoming our best guard. It was playing the injured third best guard too much despite his being clearly worse than the other two. (To be clear, Brogdon was a perfectly good acquisition who helped solve a problem at a reasonable cost. But he was clearly worse than both Smart and White and while he did accept his reduced role as a 6th man, I think there was pressure to find him minutes that created rotation issues.)
Go look at White’s game logs and his minutes played. This is not true.
 

lovegtm

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I think, either due to mileage or nagging injuries, Marcus of last year was not as effective on either end as Marcus from the Ime year. This year's Jrue is better in all dimensions that last year's Marcus, but I'm not sure that was always true.

Another difference: Jrue is a stabilizing force, where Marcus is/was a chaos agent. Marcus might be more of a variance play for that reason.
Jrue has been better for awhile, probably always. He was a huge part of Milwaukee's title (Giannis was hurt for key portions of that--it looked like Atlanta might just beat the Bucks when his knee got hurt), and nearly helped Giannis win a series against Boston the Bucks had no business winning sans Middleton.

He was the 2nd best player in NO's sweep of the Blazers in 2018.

He's just really, really good and underrated narratively. One place he hasn't been underrated: trade value and contract. The Pels paid what was seen as a lot to get him, then gave him a big contract. Milwaukee paid a lot to get him, then extended at significant money. The Cs paid picks+players, and then were happy to get his 34-37 years for $30M+.
 

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Jrue has been better for awhile, probably always. He was a huge part of Milwaukee's title (Giannis was hurt for key portions of that--it looked like Atlanta might just beat the Bucks when his knee got hurt), and nearly helped Giannis win a series against Boston the Bucks had no business winning sans Middleton.

He was the 2nd best player in NO's sweep of the Blazers in 2018.

He's just really, really good and underrated narratively. One place he hasn't been underrated: trade value and contract. The Pels paid what was seen as a lot to get him, then gave him a big contract. Milwaukee paid a lot to get him, then extended at significant money. The Cs paid picks+players, and then were happy to get his 34-37 years for $30M+.
Better than Marcus always? Sure, offensively and overall. Better defensively than peak Marcus? I'm skeptical.
 

lovegtm

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Better than Marcus always? Sure, offensively and overall. Better defensively than peak Marcus? I'm skeptical.
It's not a slam dunk, but peak Jrue was insanely good defensively. He ripped out Lillard's soul in the 2018 series.

Celtics fans rate Marcus highly defensively because a) he was really good b) we didn't watch Jrue much. But Jrue has been ELITE for a long time.
 

lars10

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It's not a slam dunk, but peak Jrue was insanely good defensively. He ripped out Lillard's soul in the 2018 series.

Celtics fans rate Marcus highly defensively because a) he was really good b) we didn't watch Jrue much. But Jrue has been ELITE for a long time.
Smart also made the most of every play.. often making semi routine plays more theatrical. To my eye Drue makes a lot of plays that you won’t necessarily see on a stat sheet.. just really solid defense. Smart feels like a great individual defender, but often got out of position trying to make plays.. a comp that comes to mind is Troy Polamalu.. a lot of spectacular plays but could get caught cheating the wrong way.
 

JakeRae

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Go look at White’s game logs and his minutes played. This is not true.
What isn’t true? There are plenty of minutes for White playing next to Jrue. That fact disproves the theory that Smart needed to be traded to get White more minutes. White needed more minutes and it is good he has them. I’m not disputing that. I’m disputing that trading Smart was necessary or even relevant to getting White those minutes. It can both be true that White needed more minutes than he was getting and that trading Smart was unrelated to that need.
 

tims4wins

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What isn’t true? There are plenty of minutes for White playing next to Jrue. That fact disproves the theory that Smart needed to be traded to get White more minutes. White needed more minutes and it is good he has them. I’m not disputing that. I’m disputing that trading Smart was necessary or even relevant to getting White those minutes. It can both be true that White needed more minutes than he was getting and that trading Smart was unrelated to that need.
Fair, one of the two guards had to be moved.
 

lovegtm

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I think it's fair to say that being able to get off Brogdon for Jrue was one of Brad's luckier moments in this run of GMing. He positioned himself decently for it, but the Cs easily could have ended up with Brogdon back for at least the start of this year, which would have been not great.
 

TripleOT

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I think it's fair to say that being able to get off Brogdon for Jrue was one of Brad's luckier moments in this run of GMing. He positioned himself decently for it, but the Cs easily could have ended up with Brogdon back for at least the start of this year, which would have been not great.
This is the first time in the playoffs that I had a single thought about Brogdon. I don’t miss him at all.
 

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Smart also made the most of every play.. often making semi routine plays more theatrical. To my eye Drue makes a lot of plays that you won’t necessarily see on a stat sheet.. just really solid defense. Smart feels like a great individual defender, but often got out of position trying to make plays.. a comp that comes to mind is Troy Polamalu.. a lot of spectacular plays but could get caught cheating the wrong way.
JD Drue
 

koufax32

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The last minute of this game was Jrue’s 2007 ALCS game 7 JD Drew moment.

Except Jrue always cares
 

PedroKsBambino

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That steal on Nembhard….I mean, holy crap, just straight out stoned him and took the ball away.

This series is why you pay up for Jrue Holiday—immense in games 1 and 3 (and good in game 2 as well).
 

Red Averages

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That steal on Nembhard….I mean, holy crap, just straight out stoned him and took the ball away.

This series is why you pay up for Jrue Holiday—immense in games 1 and 3 (and good in game 2 as well).
100%. Dude is a just a winner.

He gave you the Malcolm Brogdon offensive play, and the Marcus Smart defensive game winner, but as one person.
 

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That steal on Nembhard….I mean, holy crap, just straight out stoned him and took the ball away.

This series is why you pay up for Jrue Holiday—immense in games 1 and 3 (and good in game 2 as well).
The famous Celtics' playoff steals: Havlicek, Bird, Henderson, Rozier (was that playoffs?) -- were all steals of passes. This one was just an outright pickpocket.
 

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That steal on Nembhard….I mean, holy crap, just straight out stoned him and took the ball away.

This series is why you pay up for Jrue Holiday—immense in games 1 and 3 (and good in game 2 as well).
I think basketball purists would have had to riot if that was a foul. He beat the guy to the spot squared him up/ The ball handler hit him square in the chest and he took the ball clean. It was a thing of beauty.
 

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Holiday came into the 4th quarter with 5 points on 1-7 shooting, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals, and a block.

In the 4th: 9 points (3-3 from the field), 5 rebounds, an assist, a steal (the steal), and 2 turnovers.

Clearly seemed to be feeling the effects of whatever illness had him listed as questionale, but he shook it off in the 4th.
 

BaseballJones

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How much better than Smart is Holiday? He's significantly better on offense than Smart, and I see zero decrease in quality of D, and in many ways I see Jrue as the superior defender too.
 

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How much better than Smart is Holiday? He's significantly better on offense than Smart, and I see zero decrease in quality of D, and in many ways I see Jrue as the superior defender too.
So much better that Brad Stevens didn’t even flinch when shipping his own son out of town for him, before agreeing to pay him another large contract.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I think basketball purists would have had to riot if that was a foul. He beat the guy to the spot squared him up/ The ball handler hit him square in the chest and he took the ball clean. It was a thing of beauty.
Carlisle was hot right after the game---anyone see his press conference? I haven't seen any quotes complaining about it. I suspect he may have watched the replay, realized it was clean, and just stopped.

What an amazing steal.
 

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How much better than Smart is Holiday? He's significantly better on offense than Smart, and I see zero decrease in quality of D, and in many ways I see Jrue as the superior defender too.
Obligatory DARKO comparison here. Personally, I think this underrates Jrue and overrates Smart because Jrue is a much better individual offensive player while Smart really depended on the Jays’ gravity.

83137
 

Eddie Jurak

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Obligatory DARKO comparison here. Personally, I think this underrates Jrue and overrates Smart because Jrue is a much better individual offensive player while Smart really depended on the Jays’ gravity.
The tail off from Jrue over the past season has to be largely due to his role shift with the Celtics.