The “many” do not include Tatum, Stevens, or Wyc. Or really anyone else directly involved with the team.
Joe Mazzulla officially named head coach
- Thread starter Beale13
- Start date
They may think he is too inexperienced, but still feel like it is the best choice they have.
So unless you work for the Celtics your views on this issue are irrelevant ? On odd view to post on a discussion board. Also, do you really think if there was some internal debate going on about whether or not to keep Mazz, or about his weaknesses as a coach, the Cs would make that public?
Last edited:
And they are on the hook for 3/14.
Although I wonder in the light of the Monte Williams 72M deal, Wyc the astute investor may have concluded he has an undervalued asset that he's unwilling to write off but willing to ride and hopefully get a some incremental ROI from the rook.
Although I wonder in the light of the Monte Williams 72M deal, Wyc the astute investor may have concluded he has an undervalued asset that he's unwilling to write off but willing to ride and hopefully get a some incremental ROI from the rook.
The $ thing was always weird to me as a storyline... he's one of the lower paid coaches in the league. At least 3 guys fired this year were making over $8M a year. If Wyc wanted him gone he wasn't quibbling over 4.6M a year for 3 years
I don't know. After coming back from 0-3 it seemed to me CJM was coming back abd I posted that. At that time no here knew the extension details (years or $). I think people were surprised with 3/14 remaining. But with the Monte Williams deal it helps size the market for a veteran coach if that's the direction the Celts wanted to go. And Wyc may have viewed this from this perspective as well. And concluded he has an option that may have some upside. Or he can always bail if things don't work.
Just my two scents.
I think people expected him to be the lowest head coach in the league. I have to admit I did a bit of a double take seeing that he made almost $5M a year. I would have guessed 3/10
Which is crazy to me... sure he's a rookie, he also was the coach of the best team in the league in one of the premier markets, that he's paid below league average is the concession to a rookie, anyone else would probably have gotten 7-8M a year off being top of the league in a big market.
Overall, it’s not a big deal. I’m not sure why you would think it’s “crazy”, especially based off of the situation that got him the job, that people would think he wouldn’t have been paid a ton of money annually.
Again, who cares and it’s not a big deal but I don’t think it’s some crazy affront to Mazzulla that you seem to
I don't think it's an affront, I just think being shocked how much he gets paid when it's below average doesn't show a particularly logical thought process. He got this contract with his team leading the league in net rating, with either the best or second best record in the league, it wasn't his interim salary. And word was Ime was get in the 4-5M range (and is getting much more than that in HOU, something like $6M+). 3/14 is probably bottom 5-7 coach salary in the league. I think the real thing is people have no concept of what NBA head coaches make.
Taking media heat is a fair point. In theory. But he certainly got plenty of heat when the team went down 0-3. In fact he took most of it. So at least in that instance, the theory didnt pan out.
But a coach who cares what fans think of him should buy a ticket and sit with them. He will end up there pretty soon, anyway.
Last edited:
I wasn't shy about sharing my sense of the disturbing scents coming from Causeway St. nor my concerns whether a rookie coach could provide the leadership and guidance that I thought a veteran but immature Celtic team needed.
Of course. I've been screaming this all year. The culture in that locker room must have been so awkward. Ime gets his guys and Joe/Brad gets to picks their guys.
A week before Just Joe became ICJM in his battlefield promotion he was probably making 500k to $1M. That he turned Celts need to a 8-bagger and for 4 years seems a little strange to me. I would have thought Brad would have had more leverage than an AC that was not a key guy. Or Brad really didn't want to become CBS again, even for a year.
I mean... why are you trying to play hardball with your wildly successful coach who you handpicked as a protege to make sure he's the lowest paid coach in the league instead of merely one of the lowest? The kind of ownership and management that does that is almost exclusively the terrible ones. The differences you're talking about here are like what they pay the summer league guys to convince them to play in Maine.
Depends on if they are offered a better head coaching job. If not, this assistant job is a good one, especially because if the Cs come out flat next season they could end up the head coach pretty quickly
Last edited:
You create wildly exaggerated narratives to what end is unknown.
Your "wildly successful coach" was 2nd row Joe and if Ime could have kept his pants on would likely have remained a AC for the foreseeable future making maybe $1m a year and putting together a resume and learning his trade.
But I never said he should be the lowest paid but given his experience I'3m surprised he got what he got. Particularly the years. I don't know the NBA coach pay scale, but from my limited perspective and the relative attractiveness of the job and perceived strength of the team Brad might have had other options if he had kept the interim tag on.
The point per Trapper is off-base, IMO. It's not a bad situation to have a veteran voice. It's someone who has been through some wars to lean on in certain situations, not an Oz-voice acting as the "real" coach. Brad is smart enough to navigate this without it becoming messy for anyone, and who says Joe wouldn't want this?
Further, the guy lost multiple assistants over the course of his first year. It's not about getting better assistants, it's about getting enough assistants to have a full staff, and to get assistants he thinks will help him more (as opposed to Ime's assistants).
The stuff with the media, as others have said, is a non-issue. And, just maybe, he'll be more comfortable with the media in year two.
One major point I took from Brad's presser is that all of the people on the team--players and coaches--know others view them under the media microscope and those findings become magnified in the playoffs. Brad looks at the broader view. He sees a team that was very successful and fell slightly short of its goal. He sees a coach who was put in a difficult situation help get a team to within one game of the finals. How much credit should Joe get for that? How much more (or less) could another coach have done in his shoes? I have almost no idea. But Brad believes Joe has grown a lot in the short time he's been coach, and that that growth will show in year 2. If you believe in Brad, that has to mean at least something.
I do see something in Joe that has rarely been talked about. He seems to have a great emotional connection to his players. You can see it in the way he talks about them, that he truly feels for them when they have troubled moments. He has said multiple times that he "loves" them and that he feels the locker room he has is "special." I have no idea how this translates to his coaching ability, but I do think he connects well on that level. I offer this as a counter to the sort of robotic perception most people seem to have of him (per his pressers). I also offer it as a way to see that sometimes strengths are more hidden than weaknesses.
Sure.. but the coach he handpicked (the only one he made Ime keep from his own staff) was having a great year, and he gave him a below average deal in length and years.... I am not the one being unreasonable.
He's not "Second row Joe" once the season is most of the way over, he's.. "Head coach of the 2 seed Celtics" a guy who was having MORE success than Ime despite not getting a summer to prep, anything less than 3 years at below average salary is an outright insult, and no way you aren't lifting the interim tag as soon as the lawyers say you're in the clear to let Ime walk, he's the guy you picked and he's having great success, why would you want the uncertainty of not having a permanent coach, especially since giving him a contract is a great way to quietly close the door on Ime.
I think the start of the last sentence is the key.... you don't know the NBA coach pay scale.
This was a pretty low salary, fairly short term deal. We don't have all the coaches' salaries public, but this is right in line with what most 1st time head coaches get, and less than some of the sexier first time hires (Nash, Kidd, etc.), it's towards the bottom of the league. So yes, to expect him to get less is to expect them to make him the lowest paid coach in the league likely in terms of total value. I think, that there might be a guy or two in the cheap small market teams that makes under $4M, but even like 6-7 years ago 1st time head coaches were getting in the $3.5M a year range.
As to years, I've never seen a deal shorter than 3 years, that's the bare minimum, usually it's 4.
I agree he's done as a head coach at his age. I can't see why he'd want to be an assistant for an organization and management that he has no prior connection either.
Agree we’re keeping CJM but I wonder who might want this challenge? Clearly if you can get their heads on right they are one of a handful of teams with legit Championship aspirations. They needed an Ime not a Brad to get in their faces not cut their crusts of the PB&Js after every loss. I think a Thibs intense yelling style would be the best for this team short term. Hope Joe holds them accountable, but if you ask the players to judge were there being held accountable I’m not sure that’s the best lens.
With a few cold nights and mornings to settle, I believe this is the right move and stability + a full summer with a returning coach and the stability it brings will be a good thing.
A little worried about the coaching staff though. From the outside it almost feels like it is being promoted as a babysitting gig. Does Mazzulla even have any “guys” that he can handpick?
A little worried about the coaching staff though. From the outside it almost feels like it is being promoted as a babysitting gig. Does Mazzulla even have any “guys” that he can handpick?
In terms of his "Guys', with rookie coaches it's usually just guys they were on staff with before. For Mazzulla....
Jamie Young- finalist for the Suns Head coach job
Larranaga- allegedly turned it down last year, but maybe he'd be more willing to come back with a summer to plan
Scott Morrison- UTA just gave him a bump up this week, likely to keep BOS from poaching him
Brandon Bailey- He was with DET this year I think? So he's available, more a replacement for the guys Ime takes than #2 chair.
Jerome Allen- Also with DET last year, so available unless Monty keeps him
Kara Lawson- not leaving Duke
Evan Turner- doesn't want to coach again.
Overall though, a lot of assistant coaches are professionals, they look for good spots and good salaries.
I think of Daigneault in OKC, he was young, he had little network (he'd been a college assistant than G-League), but he ended up with Chip Engelland on his staff. No connection there, OKC just made him and offer and lured him away from SA.
I think there are likely 2 types of coaches you'll see them look at for the experienced slot..
1. Seasoned pros like Engelland, looking for a good spot with a good team
2. Guys who are looking to burnish their rep up for the next HC job (Vogel, Atkinson, etc.)
To the bolded, Jamie Young was on the 76ers staff this year and isn't being considered for any head coaching jobs. Kevin Young is the Suns assistant that people think will end up getting the head coaching job.
Engelland had a relationship with Sam Presti from their SA days...would be similar to Vogel in this scenario as Vogel and Brad are close.
The King/Weiss Athletic piece (https://theathletic.com/4569899/2023/06/01/boston-celtics-joe-mazzulla-wyc-grousbeck-season-recap/) paints a pretty positive picture of CJM and his willingness to learn and adapt. To me those are vital characteristics in a young coach. I get that good news is boring, but here's some excerpts that have me optimistic:
When Boston elevated Mazzulla, not even a front-row assistant last season, sources around the team said it could have created a divide between him and the other coaches with more experience and loyalty to Udoka. There was initially an “awkwardness” according to several members of the coaching staff, but Mazzulla worked to establish a culture of open communication and trust.
“His leadership is second to none. From speakers to events, he hit all the buttons to galvanize the group,” said a team source. “Throughout the season, the things he did to call out (Jayson Tatum) and (Jaylen Brown) all the time, he was super hard on all of them. When they needed to be called out, he was the first to call them out. When the role players needed to be called out, he called them out too. He shot it straight how he saw it and didn’t care about how it should be done. I thought he developed great relationships with guys because of that.”
After the season ended, multiple players and coaches told The Athletic that (calling more TOs) was a much-needed shift and a key part of the learning process for Mazzulla.
“I think there are times where we grew out of it and I think there are times where we probably needed timeouts and Joe’s the first one to admit that,” said Brogdon. “He did admit that at times and I think it was really a growing season for him and us.”
Tatum and Brown met with Mazzulla in early March to implore him to put Williams back into the rotation, team sources told The Athletic.
“The stars stepped up and told Joe what they wanted and Joe listened,” a player source said.
“I don’t think people give (Mazzulla) or us enough credit that, two days before (the) season starts, we find out we’re going to have a new coach,” Tatum said. “We didn’t have Rob the first 25, 30 games of the season, we never got a chance to have (Danilo Gallinari), and we got a new coach one day before media day. You know, that was an adjustment. We all figured it out. Obviously, we wanted to win the championship. Didn’t happen. But I think Joe did a great job.
To me this paints a picture of a coach who has the buy in of his most important players, who went through some growing pains, and is poised to come out of it a better coach and leader. Y'all can bitch about his press conference demeanor all you want, but he's going to be our coach and you'll just have to get used to it.
When Boston elevated Mazzulla, not even a front-row assistant last season, sources around the team said it could have created a divide between him and the other coaches with more experience and loyalty to Udoka. There was initially an “awkwardness” according to several members of the coaching staff, but Mazzulla worked to establish a culture of open communication and trust.
“His leadership is second to none. From speakers to events, he hit all the buttons to galvanize the group,” said a team source. “Throughout the season, the things he did to call out (Jayson Tatum) and (Jaylen Brown) all the time, he was super hard on all of them. When they needed to be called out, he was the first to call them out. When the role players needed to be called out, he called them out too. He shot it straight how he saw it and didn’t care about how it should be done. I thought he developed great relationships with guys because of that.”
After the season ended, multiple players and coaches told The Athletic that (calling more TOs) was a much-needed shift and a key part of the learning process for Mazzulla.
“I think there are times where we grew out of it and I think there are times where we probably needed timeouts and Joe’s the first one to admit that,” said Brogdon. “He did admit that at times and I think it was really a growing season for him and us.”
Tatum and Brown met with Mazzulla in early March to implore him to put Williams back into the rotation, team sources told The Athletic.
“The stars stepped up and told Joe what they wanted and Joe listened,” a player source said.
“I don’t think people give (Mazzulla) or us enough credit that, two days before (the) season starts, we find out we’re going to have a new coach,” Tatum said. “We didn’t have Rob the first 25, 30 games of the season, we never got a chance to have (Danilo Gallinari), and we got a new coach one day before media day. You know, that was an adjustment. We all figured it out. Obviously, we wanted to win the championship. Didn’t happen. But I think Joe did a great job.
To me this paints a picture of a coach who has the buy in of his most important players, who went through some growing pains, and is poised to come out of it a better coach and leader. Y'all can bitch about his press conference demeanor all you want, but he's going to be our coach and you'll just have to get used to it.
You can also say that he has the buy-in of the most important person....his boss. Take the names out of the equation for a second and realize how highly Mazzulla is thought of by Brad to be the one holdover from his staff that he required the new coach (Ime) to retain. "Fill out your staff with your guys but Joe is a critical piece to this organization."
The coaching industry is all about connections. None of us are privy to who is all involved but Joe certainly has contacts he came up with around the league. It appears Silas is that veteran voice who will be next to him with the rest being younger up and comers. The guy I've brought to before who I hope Silas brings with him (if he does indeed come) is Abdelfattah who can't be feeling all warm and fuzzy after Ime just brought 3 of his guys over and he was originally a Silas hire.
Good for Ainge. He really didn't have to say *anything,* but he knows his words carry some weight among the Celtic public and he went to bat for Mazzulla.
Larranaga and Young are the probably the first two guys Brad called(especially since they tried on Larranaga last year so surely Mazzulla wants him back as well). I think these are more the kinda guys Brad means when he says they'll be adding guys with plenty of NBA experience. I don't think he necessarily means head coach experience.
I'd guess Stephen SIlas is added since he was already around the team. But I'd be surprised if they add one of the bigger name former NBA head coaches. I'd also guess they'll add at least one coach who played in the NBA.
Vogel just got hired by the Suns, so scratch him off of the list.
Jerome Allen played in the NBA, has history with Brad/CJM and is likely looking for a new job.
It seems like Silas and Phil Pressey have already been hired according to reports (Pressey would be a second row/developmental guy)
More reports on tensions within the team re: the teams identity and confusion with Mazzula’s defensive approach. Seems like at least some of this came out after the team finally shifted to a double big lineup against Philadelphia.
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/06/joe-mazzulla-shifting-celtics-identity-caused-strain-in-playoffs-report.html
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2023/06/joe-mazzulla-shifting-celtics-identity-caused-strain-in-playoffs-report.html
Last edited:
Well sure, his employers opinions are the only ones that matter as to whether it’s important to the team (which none of us are a part of, as you note). They seem to like him, unless you have heard them say otherwise?
Is there some evidence the team prioritizes media savvy in their coaches?
The interesting thing, however, is that they keyed the almost-comeback against Miami by going back to smaller lineups, but with more effort, attention to detail, and some new schemes there.
My general impression is that there definitely is/was tension regarding defensive philosophy, and Mazzulla bought himself back some credibility in the locker room by showing them in games 4-6 that they could recover a defensive identity without having to play double-big all the time.
One factor at play, as people noted here, Rob W was really good most of the time, but not the regularly unstoppable force he had been. Mazzulla had to recognize that, but at the same time, he couldn't just come right out and say it.
That's not a new report; it basically just regurgitates King's Athletic article posted above.
Is it uncommon for players to blame the coach and the scheme rather than their own inconsistent effort?
I think there was definitely something to the idea that the team had lost its defensive identity. I think the players were mistaken in thinking that double-big was the way to re-find it, outside of specific matchups like PJ "terrified to shoot" Tucker.
The specific statement he responded to was about Mazz’s general inexperience not his media savvy. I had suggested that “He’s seen by many as too inexperienced for this job” and the response was “The “many” do not include Tatum, Stevens, or Wyc. Or really anyone else directly involved with the team.”
The question to be debated is whether or not keeping Mazzulla was a good decision, not whether any of us have have inside info from the team’s leadership team. Obviously the team’s decision was to keep him. What’s also clear is that there are many in the media and many more fans who don’t have a favorable view of this decision. Nearly 50% of SOSH opposed retaining him, and this is generally a less reactive group than the larger fan base. My guess is a poll of all fans would show 75% (or more) want him gone. And it’s not even true that we know that there wasn’t any internal disagreement regarding keeping Mazzulla. If there was it’s not as if the Cs would send out a press release.
The Cs decided to retain a coach that is widely unpopular with the fans and who has been criticized by many in the media. While there are certainly cogent arguments that have been made in support of that decision “his employers opinions are the only one that matter” isn’t one of those. I mean, jeez man, it’s a discussion board. Discussing controversial team decisions is what we do…
When you got arguments as strong as "most fans don't like him" and " he's weird in press conferences" it's hard to make a good counter. I guess they fucked up.
Totally, those are the only arguments against keeping Mazzulla. Great point!
Edit: Again, this discussion and most others related to the benefits of keeping Mazzulla started with concerns about his inexperience and how this may have affected his struggles to adapt in the playoffs. I think there are many of us who also feel that the defensive identity that had been a huge strength of last year’s Celtics was undermined by Mazzulla’s offensive focus this year - and it seems like there were players who struggled with this as well. Sure, he also comes off as rigid and amateurish in press conferences but no one suggested he should be fired for that reason, merely that it doesn’t help his cause to represent himself so poorly to the public.
Last edited:
I would like to understand why fans opinions matter at all. We have terrible information, are completely unobjective and prone to unhinged behavior off the back of a meaningless losses or even wins where execution was poor.
It really seems like fan perspectives are the last thing a team should consider with anything to do with the actual sport.
It really seems like fan perspectives are the last thing a team should consider with anything to do with the actual sport.
The only time it matters is if the fans stop showing up or watching. Until then it doesn’t matter at all.