It reminded me of Messi's first goal against the Revs last weekend: it was like the ball was on an invisible string.
Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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I couldn't find it either so I'm re-posting the link to the full interview (starts at 45:11).
View: https://youtu.be/3aj6a8hNUJE?t=2707
View: https://twitter.com/therechigoes/status/1785398148308885799?
Them defending Tatum like that when on the court with who it’s been in the past is one thing. The fact that they were still doing that with the Celtics current roster? Ultimate respect, and why I don’t bother with the Tatum discourse on Twitter and such.
Agree.
BTW, in the full interview that I tried to post (have to go to YT to watch), the clip right before the "Tatum rules" is Iguodala with a off-hand comment how Sam Cassell is like Jrue Holiday. That's an interesting comparison I hadn't thought of.
Dug into Tatum’s shooting numbers in the series, was interesting.
0-3 feet: 80%
3-10: 33%
10-16: 46%
16-3PT: 50%
Pull-up threes: 37%
C&S threes: 18%
This is while going against Spo/Bam, and seeing three guys anytime he put the ball down. He didn’t force it, he didn’t turn the ball over, and had a team best +25.7 on/off.
I cannot describe how primed those numbers are for positive correction where it matters. Dude is about to go the fuck off.
0-3 feet: 80%
3-10: 33%
10-16: 46%
16-3PT: 50%
Pull-up threes: 37%
C&S threes: 18%
This is while going against Spo/Bam, and seeing three guys anytime he put the ball down. He didn’t force it, he didn’t turn the ball over, and had a team best +25.7 on/off.
I cannot describe how primed those numbers are for positive correction where it matters. Dude is about to go the fuck off.
I think it’s crazy that a star player and coach saw they could basically leave the rim unprotected if he acted as a decoy and he was okay with it. The game thread def noticed that Tatum basically didn’t shoot in the first quarter.. team is so good and full of unselfish players that only care about doing what it takes to win.
People are fine with a guy putting up 25/5 and being a top-5 player because he contributes to elite point differential champagne when it's prime Steph Curry or Kawhi.
When it's Tatum, it's just sparkling impact metrics.
Imagine how far off Luka Bam would have helped if he had been assigned to shut down Luka in a hypothetical Dallas matchup.
Bam was GLUED to Tatum.
That is value, and leads to very real Pointz for the team.
Plus, Tatum gets to conserve energy for elite defense. And drive harder when he does get the ball.
If the Celtics win this year, Tatum will be a top 3 MVP vote recipient next year. (This assumes he is healthy.)
Watching even the Garden Report tonight they don't seem to fully grasp that Tatum has made a concerted leap this year in playing the percentages and being unselfish and playing within himself. They eventually touch on a couple of these points but only after saying Tatum wasn't great and White was much better. IDK. Man, basketball is not easily understood by those who watch it I guess.
And being “alpha” bull shit. There’s a reason why some suggest Brunson is an actual better nba player than Tatum lol hahhababba
FWIW the one game where Tatum & Brown were getting POINTz and unfocused on D was G2
#defensematters
#defensematters
The 7 rings Curry and Kawhi have between them might explain part of that. I don't think it is disrespecting Tatum to not put him at the level of people who have led their teams to titles. If you want the case that Tatum is underrated compare him to Joel Embiid.
My point was different from "Tatum is as good as prime Steph Curry."
The point was that people can value lower counting stats as being highly impactful on winning, and they did this easily when Steph and Kawhi only had 1 ring apiece. In Tatum's case, however, they seem completely unable to do so.
To be fair, Andre Iguodala stole a Finals MVP from Steph, so even in that case people can be way off.
I mean, this is completely ludicrous. White and others were scoring because Tatum was opening up the defense consistently, and also keeping Bam way away from the rim.
That clip also highlights terrific team defense. Brown's ball pressure and Horford's hyper-alert weak side help were all integral to that play. I also don't think Bam gets called for that push off very often.
This may be the funniest thing robot Tatum has ever done, 11 years later lol
View: https://twitter.com/ksenguptaa/status/1786404581217374314
View: https://twitter.com/ksenguptaa/status/1786404581217374314
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It's not just the rings that gets those guys recognition over someone like Tatum, even when the counting stats have been somewhat similar. When you're clearly the best in the league at something, it's a lot easier for people to give you credit for the rest of your game. Curry is unequivocally the best shooter of all-time, Kawhi is easily the best perimeter defender of at least the last 25 years. Tatum is never going to be the best at anything in particular, or even in the discussion (other than best American born player). Tatum is reliable and has no real weaknesses, which are things people will absolutely take for granted until forced not to.
Pulling this exchange over from the Cavs series thread because I woke up thinking about this and was going to get something in this direction started anyway
The guy came into the league as a shooter, and the knock on him that first year or two on those Kyrie teams was that he just looked for his own shot and our whole offense was 'my turn, your turn.' A few years in Jackie Mac (if I remember right) asked on air "How do Tatum and Brown make each other better?" and the whole narrative in the sports media started to turn from 'wow, look at his potential!' to 'are they going to reach their potential?' People started to look at Tatum like he was a modern version of Michael Redd or Rashard Lewis. If he wasn't hitting threes, what was the point?
Fast forward to this year's playoff run and go through the stat sheets. Tatum is stuffing them with all the non-shooting stuff-- rebounds, blocks, assists. Most possessions on the court he's drawing all the defensive attention and then make great reads on his passes. Christ, if there was a stat for 'most screens that resulted in a made FG' Tatum probably would have led the team in that stat for game 1 against the Cavs.
He's doing all the things Jackie was talking about all those years ago. And I can't tell if that sound I'm hearing is the goalposts being hoisted up and moved off somewhere else. Or maybe a bunch of people still have this idea in their head that Tatum's value is as a shooter. If he's not hitting threes, what's the point?
Tatum's game last night felt like it was in the ballpark of 'what would you get from a not mentally-messed-up-Ben-Simmons-if-that-guy-tried-to-hit-outside-shots'. And the thing is: that guy is a really useful player!
Of course, the good news is that Tatum is actually a good outside shooter, even if last night wasn't his night. So we get something better.
Also, I can't really keep up with the volume of stuff that's posted over here --> apologies if someone has already said all this and I'm not giving them credit
I don't know what hyperbolic means, but I think Ben Simmons isn't a horrible comp for what's changed about Tatum's game over the last few years, and I don't mean that as flip criticism
The guy came into the league as a shooter, and the knock on him that first year or two on those Kyrie teams was that he just looked for his own shot and our whole offense was 'my turn, your turn.' A few years in Jackie Mac (if I remember right) asked on air "How do Tatum and Brown make each other better?" and the whole narrative in the sports media started to turn from 'wow, look at his potential!' to 'are they going to reach their potential?' People started to look at Tatum like he was a modern version of Michael Redd or Rashard Lewis. If he wasn't hitting threes, what was the point?
Fast forward to this year's playoff run and go through the stat sheets. Tatum is stuffing them with all the non-shooting stuff-- rebounds, blocks, assists. Most possessions on the court he's drawing all the defensive attention and then make great reads on his passes. Christ, if there was a stat for 'most screens that resulted in a made FG' Tatum probably would have led the team in that stat for game 1 against the Cavs.
He's doing all the things Jackie was talking about all those years ago. And I can't tell if that sound I'm hearing is the goalposts being hoisted up and moved off somewhere else. Or maybe a bunch of people still have this idea in their head that Tatum's value is as a shooter. If he's not hitting threes, what's the point?
Tatum's game last night felt like it was in the ballpark of 'what would you get from a not mentally-messed-up-Ben-Simmons-if-that-guy-tried-to-hit-outside-shots'. And the thing is: that guy is a really useful player!
Of course, the good news is that Tatum is actually a good outside shooter, even if last night wasn't his night. So we get something better.
Also, I can't really keep up with the volume of stuff that's posted over here --> apologies if someone has already said all this and I'm not giving them credit
I agree with all of this however, at some point, we're probably going to need him to make shots to win a game and right now his shot seems off mechanically. It's flat. A consult with Drew Hanlen would probably help.
Well, I was attempting something of a deadpan joke, exaggerating how much I didn't know what hyperbole meant. Which maybe only worked as an inside joke with myself. Or maybe I need to work on my delivery
They are very used to all the disappointment
Is it too simplistic to think that they are winning with ease despite his poor shooting and teams are screwed because eventually he'll get it going?
It's wild how good this team has looked through six playoff games despite his poor shooting.
If Tatum continues to draw the best defender & doubles when he puts the ball on the floor we should expect his scoring to be lower with Brown, White & Co seeing a bump against lesser defenders.
As long as he defends, rebounds, moves the ball, and shoots efficiently (which he hasn't in these playoffs) we'll be thrilled if he only scores in the teens... All Tatum really has to do is be selective with his PU shots, attack cross matches, end the turn-around fadeaways from the mid-range & and work with Hanlan on C&S3s.
As long as he defends, rebounds, moves the ball, and shoots efficiently (which he hasn't in these playoffs) we'll be thrilled if he only scores in the teens... All Tatum really has to do is be selective with his PU shots, attack cross matches, end the turn-around fadeaways from the mid-range & and work with Hanlan on C&S3s.
It felt like he made last night harder than it needed to be, scoring wise lol. It was almost like he was surprised that the Cavs were less consistent than Miami, when it came to sending 2/3 guys at him when he put the ball down.
He’s always been a rhythm player though, so hopefully the jumper bounces back tomorrow night. I think the every other day format really benefits him, but we will see.
Even with the shooting struggles, the difference in their offense with him on and off the court has been staggering. Eventually they’ll need him to be more of a weapon as a scorer, but I’m not really concerned about the shooting, at least not yet lol.
He’s always been a rhythm player though, so hopefully the jumper bounces back tomorrow night. I think the every other day format really benefits him, but we will see.
Even with the shooting struggles, the difference in their offense with him on and off the court has been staggering. Eventually they’ll need him to be more of a weapon as a scorer, but I’m not really concerned about the shooting, at least not yet lol.
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First, I hope I wasn't mansplaining. I was probably mansplaining. Your joke went well over my head. I'm terrible at picking up internet sarcasm.
I took two years of accounting in high school as a math credits to get out of the difficult math courses. A big shout out to the late Mr. Gosselin who gave me a crash course in trig, after class, so I could take senior-year physics. Now, I'm a CPA and use an adding machine to add 2 + 2 and have for two decades, so my math skills are non-existent.
I know this is a sidetrack, but if it wasn't for Mr. Gosselin and my sophomore-year English teach, Mr. Freeling, I'm not sure what I would have turned out to be as an adult. They made me kick my own ass into gear and helped bring out a strong work ethic.
I don't think there is anything wrong with Tatum's shot or the way he has played in the playoffs so far. It's the same trend that we saw in the regular season--moving the ball, making the right decisions, empowering teammates to succeed and winning in dominant fashion. This all feels like nit picking to me.
Try it with a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down the pants.
That pic of him being triple teamed is for sure an instance where he has moved the ball well. However, it's not like he was double or tripled team every single time down the floor. He settled for too many turnarounds and had a bad shooting night and an OK defensive game. It happens.
Yeah, that specific pic was when Cleveland ran zone for a couple possessions and got destroyed. They weren't sending nearly as much help to Tatum as Miami did, over the course of the game.
In the context of Tatum evaluation, I called out the Dunker's Spot guys as people who really get basketball as an ecosystem, as opposed to just defaulting to numbers. Not surprised that Nekias sees what's going on.
If the Celtics keep winning, I expect the rest of the narrative to catch up. There is a lot going on in their offensive approach, and it hasn't yet been widely appreciated.
JT was 7-19 last night. He was 0-5 from 3P so he was 7-14 from 2P, which isn't bad. By my count he had:
- 2 turnaround jump shots - one was a baseline 15' that he normally makes and the other was one where he spun right (which he doesn't usually do) and made it.
- 2 one-legged fadeaways; both were about 15 feet and one was over Strus that he makes all of the time.
- 1 18' pull-up that he made
- 3 reverse lay-ups: one which he made; one which he missed but got the rebound and made the follow; and one he missed but Luke slammed home the follow (collectively, 2-4)
- 2 floaters - one he made and the other he got the rebound but missed a bunny (and he thought he was hacked because he followed Strus on the rebound (1-3)
- a dunk on a nice feed from Luke (1-1)
- a layup as the roll man from a DW PnR (1-1)
He's not shooting well but I don't think his shot selections was horrible.