Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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I'm not disagreeing with you on how Timpf has talked about the Cs and the Jays overall but he seems to be coming around lately. He is still pretty vocal that he doesn't trust the Cs not to seize up in late and close games against good teams, and states that it'll stay that way until they show that it has changed. But...
He has the Cs ranked as the best team in basketball right now, seems to have just realized how young Tatum still is, and says Tatum feels like a player that will have won multiple championships when all is said and done. That's a pretty far cry from Cowherd's "missed his window" weird take.
I actually really like listening to what Timpf has to say about the Celtics, despite his Lakers roots.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6WyJdHUGMc&ab_channel=HoopsTonight
View: https://youtu.be/LIuP55lbmzE?list=PLhLFCVTACEM9pY2Jy8KECtSD5HoG0rI7v&t=649
Here's a playlist of everything Celtics related that Timpf has put out recently: Link
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We can play with 14, 10, and 8 game samples BUT on the whole his Pull-Up 3s (PU 3s
) haven't been 35.4, 17.5, or 38%... it's been ~30% for a few seasons now.He's historically been a much better Catch & Shoot 3pt shooter. He has leaned into a higher % of PU 3s this season (compared to last) which is unnecessary with the roster around him.
I'm expecting Tatum will continue to average 8-9 3PA/gm, but increase the # of his C&S 3s.
Agree, I'm been listening to Timpf for years. He used to claim to not be a Lakers fan and then finally admitted to it, which was odd. He likes to toss around efficiency stats which makes him better than 95% of the NBA media, although he likes to manipulate them to back up his takes.
He usually waits to do Celtic deep dives after a Boston loss (6/7) so it's like listening to Eddie on steroids.
His TOP 4 Contender list (different than his weekly ratings) is the Nuggets, Celtics, Lakers!, & Bucks with Denver as his favorite. May be time for him to take LA out, which he still hasn't.
He has banged the drum pretty hard about Tatum PU 3s being inefficient, which is fair criticism.
Herd is a clown, I heard him recently say Belichick is a byproduct of Brady.
I'm not a PATs fan so don't know the temperature of SoSH regarding this take but that's fukn nutz from an outsider's POV. Parcells & the NYG don't win 2 Super Bowls without BB, and would have been routed by the Bills in 1991 without his defensive schemes.
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How many other contenders would a non Lakers fan put in front of the Lakers at this point? OKC, Indy, Sixers, Heat?, TWolves, Clippers, Kings, Mavs, Suns?We can play with 14, 10, and 8 game samples BUT on the whole his Pull-Up 3s (PU 3s
He's historically been a much better Catch & Shoot 3pt shooter. He has leaned into a higher % of PU 3s this season (compared to last) which is unnecessary with the roster around him.
I'm expecting Tatum will continue to average 8-9 3PA/gm, but increase the # of his C&S 3s.
Agree, I'm been listening to Timpf for years. He used to claim to not be a Lakers fan and then finally admitted to it, which was odd. He likes to toss around efficiency stats which makes him better than 95% of the NBA media, although he likes to manipulate them to back up his takes.
He usually waits to do Celtic deep dives after a Boston loss (6/7) so it's like listening to Eddie on steroids.
His TOP 4 Contender list (different than his weekly ratings) is the Nuggets, Celtics, Lakers!, & Bucks with Denver as his favorite. May be time for him to take LA out, which he still hasn't.
He has banged the drum pretty hard about Tatum PU 3s being inefficient, which is fair criticism.
Herd is a clown, I heard him recently say Belichick is a byproduct of Brady.
I'm not a PATs fan so don't know the temperature of SoSH regarding this take but that's fukn nutz from an outsider's POV. Parcells & the NYG don't win 2 Super Bowls without BB, and would have been routed by the Bills in 1991 without his defensive schemes.
I like Timpf, as long as he's not talking about the Lakers (he's very much speaking from a fan's perspective in that regard, for better or worse). His criticisms of Tatum and the Celtics aren't very different from what people around here have been saying for months, both the good and the bad.
Among teams that potentially have a punchers chance at getting to the finals? I'm going to assume they'll make a trade at some point which increases their odds, and with that in mind I guess I'd put them ahead of the Warriors and Grizzlies (their biggest hurdle is just going to be getting a chance to make the playoffs). Anyone else that has even the slightest chance (Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Knicks, Heat, Magic, Cavs, Wolves, Thunder, Nuggets, Clippers, Kings, Mavs, Pelicans, Suns) I'd put ahead of them.
I'd put the Lakers in TOP10. Bron and all.
They will shake it up at the trade deadline & if LaVine gets religion who knows (he has talent)
Boston, Denver, OKC, 76ers, Bucks, Wolves, LAC, Heat, PHX, Lakers
I have both OKC & 76ers higher than Vegas because of their roster/trade flexibility. Both can add a serious piece(s).
I don't watch enough Lakers games, but the ones I've seen.. LeBron seems to disappear a lot nowadays. Last night I can't remember him really doing anything in the 4th... (looking at the stats he was 2 for 4.. after being 2 for 5 in the 3rd). As you said.. they're going to need another star to get very far in the playoffs. Memphis is better than their record, but last night was definitely some pretty mediocre basketball on both sides.
Are you looking on mobile? That may be aggregating some stats.
If you go to browser and go to JT's stats, you can get the full shooting stats for his last game (or last several games). Here's JT full page of 3P shots for last game. Jump shot = 1-4; Running Jump Shot = 1-1; Step Back Jump Shot = 3-3. 5-8.
You would be hard-pressed to find a Patriots fan in possession of all their marbles who would agree with that take. Both of them are clearly* the best to have ever done it in their roles. They both have bona fides seeing success without the other. You can trace it to specific skills they each have and regularly demonstrated, which have nothing to do with the other guy.
That's one of those hot-takes you hear from sports radio idjits who are just trying to rile people up - which Cowherd, of course, is a prototypical example of.
* with apologies to fans of Paul Brown and Bill Walsh, who were innovators on a scale Belichick never was, but who also didn't have to do it in a salary-cap world, and neither of them did it for anywhere near as long at a high level.
The arc is back on it. It was looking really really bricky earlier on in the year.
We'll see how it goes from here though; he's had these short stretches before where it looks like winter 2020 is back, and then it goes away again.
Really lol?
I honestly do not understand why Tatum doesn't try to put Hanlen on some kind of massive retainer. Embiid (for example) seems fine without Drew's day-to-day feedback, but the consistency of Hanlen being able to fix Tatum's shot has been a thing for years.
Yeah he’s in Indy with them now, and staying through the game Monday.
I’ve said for years that the team should just try to hire Hanlen lol, but he works with SO many players now.
I really wonder what his number is. I'm sure Drew Hanlen is not a poor man, but Tatum is so ridiculously dependent on him that he might be able to hit that number.
I bet there are awkward considerations about telling a friend to pause his very very successful business just to work with you though, and then being responsible if it doesn't work out.
I would think Tatum could always incrementally increase the amount of coaching he gets from Hanlen. According to the internet, they seem to have 28 employees and an annual revenue of $7 million.
Someone on reddit linked a video on a play where Tatum can break down a defense without dribbling.
View: https://streamable.com/niqnlk
View: https://streamable.com/niqnlk
Great stuff. Thanks for sharing. Watching Tatum warp defenses is so much fun. I liked how the video deliberately and slowly set that up and then in real time it all happened in the blink of an eye.
Since we're talking Timpf on Tatum:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uS2zAbW-yQ&ab_channel=HoopsTonight
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uS2zAbW-yQ&ab_channel=HoopsTonight
Improving on his midrange game probably has boosted these numbers a good bit.
I think you noticed this recently, JT is shooting his jumpers/3PA with a lot more arc. Very flat to start the season
This was as bad as the Jokic one a few weeks ago. Refs shouldn’t eject a player after they blow multiple calls.
View: https://twitter.com/BriMarieD/status/1746350810798141632
View: https://twitter.com/BriMarieD/status/1746350810798141632
that’s so fucking lame. Giving the ref the hand gesture is what caused the technical…really? Thats offensive enough to throw a player out of the game? Fucking grow up
On the other hand we were up 26 and Tatum wanted to make a statement. And had gotten fouled 3 times with no call.
We keep on saying he needs to show awareness for the situation, put the team's needs first, etc. If that's so, then he picked his moment well last night.
We keep on saying he needs to show awareness for the situation, put the team's needs first, etc. If that's so, then he picked his moment well last night.
Pretty much exactly what he said (below). The game was pretty much over and he needed to stand up for himself. I didn't mind it one bit.
View: https://twitter.com/NBCSCeltics/status/1746372654544683280
Here's a couple of the missed calls right before the ejection:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P1EIh1rwhU
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P1EIh1rwhU
First off, Tatum was incredible tonight. He just went off in the third in a way few players can. But the officiating was odd to me all night. What was up with that tech on Dillon Brooks being whistled in the middle of Tatum shooting a FT that he missed and him not getting a do-over? The whole thing almost seemed personal with the ref.
If Tatum can get Drew Hanlen to move in with him, I have no problem with the iso 3s. His shot looks much, much better the last couple weeks.
Maybe he just wanted to get to the locker room early so he wouldn’t have to interact with ime on the court after the game.
Is Tatum ever going to get the star treatment from the refs? It feels like quite the opposite, like Danny Davis dragging out the 3 counts when a face is pinning a heel.
This kid has the physical ability but if not for VanVleet directing him where to be on most possessions, sometimes physically guiding him, he'd probably be unplayable right now. FVV is earning his salary in babysitting fees this year.
Ime didn’t do much post game interacting with his former players. PP had a moment with him since he was standing near Ime as the clock expired. Udoka exited stage right after that.
He did earlier say the players were lying to the media, so I can see any interaction being awkward from that point forward.
I don't think he was calling the key players "liars", just that they knew the situation/weren't kept in the dark.
To provide cover, the players just said they didn't know anything about the "IME situation", so they wouldn't get relentlessly hounded by the press(which they would have been)
I think IME has accepted he was at fault and everyone wants to move on from a workplace affair that went wrong.
Celticsblog with an article analyzing Tatum's ISO game.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2024/1/15/24035411/three-leaf-clover-jayson-tatums-elite-isolation-game-boston-celtics
https://www.celticsblog.com/2024/1/15/24035411/three-leaf-clover-jayson-tatums-elite-isolation-game-boston-celtics
I feel Taytum just doesn't hit the game clinching/saving buzzer beaters like some of the other elite players. There are two recent examples. One, Jan 10th against the MN. He takes the final shot in regulation to win the game but misses. Goes into OT, celts win and he has 45. He does ice the game in OT but on a great play by holiday to set him up. Last night against Denver. Again, has a very makeable shot to send the game into OT but misses. He's a phenomenal talent, top 6 player in the league at least, right now but doesn't make those time of do or die shots. I know there are other examples but these two seem fresh in my mind.
Yeah, he's hit a number of late shots/game winners in his career (the 3 against Philly last year comes to mind), but it's been awhile now since he's hit one. A lot of clean mid-rangers missing the past few months.
It's even more frustrating because he's been pretty money on that mid-range fadeaway this year, relative to years past.
From Gary Washburn's latest:
Tatum is unquestionably the Celtics’ best offensive player, and he should be the primary option down the stretch. But he doesn’t have to take every game-winning or clutch shot, especially when he’s struggling in that category.
Tatum is shooting 33.3 percent in clutch situations, with the game within 5 points in the last five minutes, and he’s 1 for 7 this season when the game is within 3 points in the final 30 seconds. Buzzer-beaters are near impossible shots, especially when the opposing team has a set defense and knows Tatum is going to get the ball.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01/20/sports/clutch-celtics-need-more-options-than-just-throw-ball-jayson-tatum/
Tatum is unquestionably the Celtics’ best offensive player, and he should be the primary option down the stretch. But he doesn’t have to take every game-winning or clutch shot, especially when he’s struggling in that category.
Tatum is shooting 33.3 percent in clutch situations, with the game within 5 points in the last five minutes, and he’s 1 for 7 this season when the game is within 3 points in the final 30 seconds. Buzzer-beaters are near impossible shots, especially when the opposing team has a set defense and knows Tatum is going to get the ball.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01/20/sports/clutch-celtics-need-more-options-than-just-throw-ball-jayson-tatum/
Taking this from the Celtic's thread
It's as simple as fewer Pull-Ups VS more Catch & Shoot shots, doing so would significantly increase his eFG%.
2022-23: 6.8 Pull-Ups (eFG 40.5%) vs 4.6 C&S (eFG 59.5%)
2023-24: 8.8 Pull-Ups (eFG 45.7%) vs 2.9 C&S (eFG 63.4%)
Just going back to last season's shot selection would be huge for his overall eFG%. Needless to say, he is playing with better offensive teammates, which should encourage more ball movement, better spacing, and lead to more C&S shots (not less).
As far as the Denver game is concerned he took 14 Pull-Ups and 1 C&S jumper.
IDK why we should pretend and go out of our way to say he was taking "good" FGA in that game when he wasn't.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/shots-dash?Season=2023-24
Tatum does dozens of GREAT things on both sides of the court. His development has been pretty linear for years, one of the last things he needs to develop is jump shot selection from 3 and mid-range.This particular play was with 10 minutes to go in the 2nd quarter, so his decision to pull up in the midrange had nothing to do with not getting a whistle in the 4th
Anyway, I think we are all reading way too much into one possession at the beginning of the 2nd quarter. Tatum, and others are going to take some midrange jumpers. They can't always get to the rim, or can't always swing the ball for an open three. Have to look at the game as a whole and not just one or two possessions (especially in the early parts of the game).
It's as simple as fewer Pull-Ups VS more Catch & Shoot shots, doing so would significantly increase his eFG%.
2022-23: 6.8 Pull-Ups (eFG 40.5%) vs 4.6 C&S (eFG 59.5%)
2023-24: 8.8 Pull-Ups (eFG 45.7%) vs 2.9 C&S (eFG 63.4%)
Just going back to last season's shot selection would be huge for his overall eFG%. Needless to say, he is playing with better offensive teammates, which should encourage more ball movement, better spacing, and lead to more C&S shots (not less).
As far as the Denver game is concerned he took 14 Pull-Ups and 1 C&S jumper.
IDK why we should pretend and go out of our way to say he was taking "good" FGA in that game when he wasn't.
https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/shots-dash?Season=2023-24
Someone put together 25+ minutes of JT shooting off-the-dribble and mid-range jumpers from last season in case anyone is interested. I don't have that kind of time yet but I thought someone might.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewk9aL8jWIo
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewk9aL8jWIo
Washburn is wrong. The NBA is a player's league. JT is the best player on the team; the ball is going to be in his hands with the game on the line. If JMazz took the ball out of his hands in a big game, I expect there would be hell to pay.
(Note: it's up to Joe to coach up JT to get him to make the correct read.)
It's JT's team and BOS will go as far as he will take them so let's hope he goes on a heater when the games really count.
Washburn isn't saying the ball shouldn't be in Tatum's hands, as I read it, but that Tatum should be open to the possibility, if he doesn't have a good look, of passing to Porzingis or Derrick White and Jaylen Brown and Jrue Holiday. All of those guys are viable late-game options, IMO.
It would be different if Tatum were nailing every late shot, but he hasn't been.
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