Is the 3,000 hit club over?

Kliq

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In all sports, I love certain clubs that set a benchmark for player success. The 10,000 yard rusher club in football, 100 goals in the EPL, 20,000 points in the NBA etc. A lot of the times they are arbitrary lines drawn around nice even numbers, but as someone that loves history, I like that we have these historic indicators of someone being a big deal.

Baseball though, which has so many great clubs, is in some trouble. It does look like the 300 Win Club is dead; it would take something truly extraordinary to reach that milestone again. The 500 Home Run club is still around, but we all know the steroid era took kind of the charm out of that club for a lot of fans. If a favorite player hits #500 it is a big deal in that market, but it's lost some allure for sure.

That brings me to the 3,000 hit club. The 3,000 hit club is no joke; 32 players in history and all would be easy HoF calls even if they didn't hit that barrier, with perhaps the exception of Craig Biggio. It also spans the time of baseball history, unlike the 500 home run club or the 300 win club, which largely ignore certain parts of baseball history. From Cap Anson to Ichiro Suzuki, it highlights great players from the professionalization of baseball to the global game today. With the exception of A-Rod and Palmeiro (minor members of the club) it also remains untainted by the steroid era. I also enjoy that some truly amazing players, for whatever reason, didn't make the cut. Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds and Ted Williams are on the outside looking in. Maybe that highlights how flukey the club may be, but I like that some of the best players who ever lived didn't make the cut.

We do have an issue though; and that is the prospects of adding new members to the club are looking kind of grim. Now, Miguel Cabrera (2,987 career hits) will become the 33rd member early next season, barring injury, but after that, there doesn't seem to be a ton of great candidates lined up in the future. After Cabrera the rest of the active leaders (Pujols is actually the active leader but is already in) are guys near the end of the line who still have several seasons to go (Robinson Cano, Yadier Molina, Nelson Cruz) and have basically no shot of reaching 3,000. After that there aren't a ton of obvious candidates.

A big reason for this is the game has changed in a way where launch angle and slugging percentage trumps going for singles, and walks are also more prioritized. This means that fewer hits are being recorded, and less players are racking up the high single-season totals necessary to crack the 3,000 club. This is reflected in the league-wide batting average (.244 in 2021) being the lowest it's been since 1968.

To reach the 3,000 hit club, you would have to average 175 hits per season for a little more than 17 seasons. Obviously in previous eras, the league leader would comfortably knock over 200 hits, but basically if you dream about reaching the 3,000 hit club, you better be looking at banging out 175 hits each year. This season, only 9 players collected 175 hits or more, and none collected more than 200. In 2011, 19 players collected at least 175, including five who topped 200. In 1991, 16 players collected at least 175. In 1980, 22 players reached that mark. Maybe this season is a weird, COVID-related fluke, (18 players collected 175 or more hits in 2019) but I think it's obvious the game is moving away from focusing on batting average and singles hitters and focusing more on slugging and OPS.

Another factor is players are not playing as long as they used to. All of the members of the 3,000 club played for a very long time. Wade Boggs and Clemente have the shortest careers, at 18 years a piece, but most of them played at least 20 seasons. Currently only three players (Pujols, Cabrera and Molina) have played at least 18 seasons. Only 7 active players have played at least 15 seasons. I've heard about this discussed on other articles, but players are really not playing into their late, late 30s or early 40s anymore. Obviously the 3,000 hit guys are all-time greats who might end up sticking around too long because they have that kind of sway, but it would be troubling for players trying to join a stat that requires incredible longevity.

After Cabrera we are unlikely to see someone get to 3,000 for quite a while. Are there any active players on the horizon who look like they have a shot?

Mike Trout: Trout is basically already an all-time great, but he is going to have trouble reaching the 3,000 hit club. He is 30 and not quite half-way there (1,419 career hits). He started very young in his career, which is a necessity to making the club unless you are Ichiro, and looks primed to remain a great player in baseball, but he would need to maintain his current level of performance well into his late-30s to have a shot. He is also a victim, much like Ruth, Bonds and Williams, of walking a lot, which limits his chances at getting hits. He hasn't cracked 150 hits since 2016, and having basically two lost seasons (with the pandemic shortened year and this injured year in 2021) really did a number on his chances.

Jose Altuve: Altuve is one of our two best candidates, imo, to join the club, but he is still a long shot. He has 1,777 career hits and turns 32 next May. He had some really big years in his 20s (topping 200 hits four straight seasons) which gave him a big jump on things. However, he has tailed off in recent years, collecting 167 hits in 2021 and 149 hits in 2019. If he can stick around 167 hits he should be in decent shape since those big peak years help his average, but the real issue is that he clearly appears to be declining. Injuries have zapped his once elite speed, and he has missed time in recent seasons. He also is hitting more home runs at the expense of his batting average, which analytically is smart if he doesn't have the speed/baserunning prowess to make singles as effective for him as they once were. Altuve could make it if he maintains his current level for the next 6-7 years, and avoids serious injury, but there are some red flags.

Freddie Freeman: Freeman is the other best bet. He has 1,704 hits and just turned 32. Unlike Altuve, Freeman doesn't appear to be declining. He won the MVP in 2020 and recorded 180 hits in 2021. He also plays a much less physically demanding position and has never relied on speed to leg out a lot of hits. He is one of the most consistent players in baseball over the last decade and doesn't show any real signs of regression in his portfolio. Still, he is 32 and just a little over half-way there, which means he will need to maintain his current form into late 30s to have a shot. It will all come down to health; players like Freeman can age relatively gracefully and perhaps he ends up as a DH for the last few years that put him over the top.

Eric Hosmer: Hosmer has similar stats to Freeman in that he will be 32 in a few days and has 1,629 career hits. The problem with Hosmer is he simply isn't as good as these other players and has hit .264 over the past few seasons, he has almost no shot.

DJ LeMaheiu: LeMahieu has had a lot of hits in recent years, but is 33 and not even halfway (1,454) there. No chance.

Manny Machado: Machado is similar in age/hit total to Trout. He will be 30 in July and has 1,425 career hits. So he will be halfway there by the time he turns 30, which is a key milestone to hit. That being said he is a .280 career hitter who usually is around 160-180 hits per year. He strikes more like Freeman, except he plays a more physically demanding position and his career is less consistent. He would have to play at a high level for another 10 years, which is not impossible but would be rare.
 

Max Power

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Xander strikes me as the most likely player under 30 to have a chance at it. He's at 1,239 and just turned 29 years old. He's had good luck with his health, doesn't walk a ton, and never relied on speed as a big part of his game.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Last year greatly impacts things too. In a normal season, all of these players have 100+ more hits. Those 100+ hits could be the difference between hanging on for an extra season or two or just retiring.
 

terrynever

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How about Devers? Started young. Has 598 hits through his age 24 season. (Lost 100 hits to the pandemic.) Should transition to DH in a decade or so. Might play into his early 40s.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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What about Devers? 24, averaging 177 hits and that is with the weird Covid shortened 2020 and his age 20 season where he had 240 PA.
 

Cesar Crespo

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There's so much projecting with Devers. If you mention him, why not Vlad Jr and Tatis Jr? And Juan Sota, who probably walks too much.
 

BaseballJones

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I think Freeman is the next best bet, for all the reasons you stated, @Kliq. Less demanding position. No sign of decline. He can last even as his power fades. Solid contact hitter.

Another Q: What about the 300 win club? Hard to see anyone getting there.
 

Mooch

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Given his extraordinary hand-eye coordination, I'd say that Mookie Betts has a decent shot if he can stay healthy. 1,152 hits through his age 28 season.
 

Gdiguy

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Interesting discussion

I think the walking issue is a huge one - as you note, Trout for his career has 1419 H but 865 BB; Altuve in contrast has 1777 H but only 443 BB.

Maybe we should create a '4,000 on base' club instead? Because even the historical ones - Babe Ruth had 2873 H but clearly would've had 3k if not for 2062 BB. Bonds similarly (2935H, 2558 BB). It's almost like the 3K hit club is either 'great hitters who tend not to take walks' or 'good hitters on great offenses so pitchers couldn't pitch around them' - it's just very hard to get 3k hits if you walk a significant amount (among the 3K hits club only Ricky Henderson had 2K walks, and only 3 more (Yaz, Rose, Musial) were over 1.5k)
 

Kliq

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With the really young guys you could project a lot of people. I think the way the game is trending would suggest it will be tough; even though there are a lot of really good players in their early 20s right now who look like good candidates. Unless baseball changes to "walks/launch angle are bad, singles are good" I don't think a lot of these guys will end up close to 3,000.

The Athletic had an article a few weeks ago noting a bunch of unbreakable records in baseball and noting that really players don't play as long as they used too and it puts a lot of these career records out of reach.
 

Bergs

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Obligatory pointing out that Ted Williams would've made it easily without losing 5 peak years (FIVE!!!!) to the wars. His WORST full season up to that point in his career featured 169 hits, and he finished up with 2,654. Pretty close to a no-doubt-about it 3,000 had he played those seasons. Add another easy 150 HR to his 521 as well.

Also, love him or hate him as thou wilt, but Barry Bonds was blackballed and would've gotten there easily as a DH had he not been.
 

CaptainLaddie

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In all sports, I love certain clubs that set a benchmark for player success. The 10,000 yard rusher club in football, 100 goals in the EPL, 20,000 points in the NBA etc. A lot of the times they are arbitrary lines drawn around nice even numbers, but as someone that loves history, I like that we have these historic indicators of someone being a big deal.

Baseball though, which has so many great clubs, is in some trouble. It does look like the 300 Win Club is dead; it would take something truly extraordinary to reach that milestone again. The 500 Home Run club is still around, but we all know the steroid era took kind of the charm out of that club for a lot of fans. If a favorite player hits #500 it is a big deal in that market, but it's lost some allure for sure.

That brings me to the 3,000 hit club. The 3,000 hit club is no joke; 32 players in history and all would be easy HoF calls even if they didn't hit that barrier, with perhaps the exception of Craig Biggio.
This is a great post but the bolded is slander. A career OPS+ of 112 while primarily playing C and 2B, while finishing with 650+ 2B, 400+ SB, 290+ HR, and average to very good defense at C, 2B, and three outfield positions is.... well, it's really good. If he had retired before his age 41 season and had finished with only 2930 hits, he'd still have made the HOF, no question.
 

ookami7m

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I think Freeman is the next best bet, for all the reasons you stated, @Kliq. Less demanding position. No sign of decline. He can last even as his power fades. Solid contact hitter.

Another Q: What about the 300 win club? Hard to see anyone getting there.
There is no one in the game right now that has a realistic shot at 300 wins. Verlander is at 226 and is 38. Grienke at 219, Lester at 200 etc. That's a club that we won't see any new members on anytime soon.
 

Kliq

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This is a great post but the bolded is slander. A career OPS+ of 112 while primarily playing C and 2B, while finishing with 650+ 2B, 400+ SB, 290+ HR, and average to very good defense at C, 2B, and three outfield positions is.... well, it's really good. If he had retired before his age 41 season and had finished with only 2930 hits, he'd still have made the HOF, no question.
Biggio is like, Bill James' favorite player and James was adamant in the late-90s/early 2000s that Biggio was the best player in baseball. I know when he came up people on here pushed back against the notion that he was a HoF player. He also took three ballots to get in, even with the 3,000 hits. I didn't look up what ballot each guy was on but the exception of Palmeiro and the ineligible guys, I imagine most of them were first-ballot slam dunk guys. I guess Anson/Lajoie/Speaker were not technically first ballot now that I think of it.
 
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In the 1980s, Bill James had a method for estimating this, which he called the Favorite Toy. Basically, you use the player's age, career hit total, and "established hit level" to estimate the "projected remaining hits". Then you compare the projected remaining hits with the hits needed to reach 3,000. If they're equal, James called that a 50% chance of reaching the goal. I'll give the full formula below. He's probably updated this formula in recent years, but this is the version I had at my fingertips (from the 1985 Baseball Abstract).

I ran a few likely candidates through the formula. Ranked in order of their estimated chance of reaching 3,000 hits, they are:
18.7% Vlad Jr. (372 hits, established hit level of 167, estimated remaining hits 1806)
18.5% Freddie Freeman (1296 hits, established hit level of 185, estimated remaining hits 888)
18.3% Rafael Devers (598 hits, established hit level of 171, estimated remaining hits 1641)
14.5% Jose Altuve (1777 hits, established hit level of 146, estimated remaining hits 789)
14.4% Trea Turner (839 hits, established hit level of 194, estimated remaining hits 1393)
11.7% Xander Bogaerts (1239 hits, established hit level of 165, estimated remaining hits 1086)
This system doesn't think Trout or Goldschmidt have any chance of reaching 3,000 hits.

There are other possible candidates, but these are the ones whose numbers I ran.

Here are the details if you care.
The formula looks at:
Hits
Needed hit (3,000 - hits)
Years remaining - estimated by the formula 24 - (.6* current age)
Established hit level (3 times most recent + 2 times previous season + season-before-last) divided by 6 [Because of the shortened season last year, I prorated everyone's 2020 hit totals to a 162 game season. So the formula ended up being (3*2021 hits + 2*2.7*2020 hits + 2019 hits)/6 ]
Projected remaining hits are years remaining * established hit level
Once you've calculated those, you do (projected remaining hits/needed hits) - .5
 

terrynever

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It’s not the same game anymore. You need new milestones to match up with what’s important in today’s game. Hits are sexier but OBP obviously has taken over as a telling offensive stat, along with OPS and all of its derivatives. Pitching wins don’t matter any more. 300 wins will not happen until everyone stops trying to throw 100 mph. What’s the most valuable pitching stat in today’s game. FIP? Might have a hard time selling that one to Cooperstown.
 

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This is a great post but the bolded is slander. A career OPS+ of 112 while primarily playing C and 2B, while finishing with 650+ 2B, 400+ SB, 290+ HR, and average to very good defense at C, 2B, and three outfield positions is.... well, it's really good. If he had retired before his age 41 season and had finished with only 2930 hits, he'd still have made the HOF, no question.
Thank you for taking care of this so I didn't have to.

Shame on you, @Kliq.
 

Kliq

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I'll add that doing a little research it just goes to show what a freak Ichiro was. Almost everyone that collected 3,000 hits started as a teenager or in their early 20s. Boggs would be the only other player I would say got a late start, as he didn't make the majors until he was 24, and Boggs played until he was 41 and barely made it. Ichiro didn't start until he was 27. By the time Yount was 27, he had 1,541 hits. Ichiro in his first 10 seasons, had 2,244 career hits, by that time he was 35. He blows these other guys away with the exception of Cobb and maybe Musial.
 
Aug 2, 2010
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Running a couple of names mentioned above through the Favorite Toy:

Manny Machado 19% (1425 hits, established hit level of 165, estimated remaining hits 1087)
Mookie Betts 3% (1152 hits, established hit level of 148, estimated remaining hits 980)
 

Mystic Merlin

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Pete Rose hit record is clearly unbreakable, and 3,000 will only get harder given how much power and walks are privileged and how good the average pitcher is now. Gone are the days of reliably shitty middle relief, or starters stretching to 3-4 times through the order when they clearly should not be in the game.

I do think 300 wins will remain harder to reach, by comparison.
 

Bozo Texino

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I'll add that doing a little research it just goes to show what a freak Ichiro was. Almost everyone that collected 3,000 hits started as a teenager or in their early 20s. Boggs would be the only other player I would say got a late start, as he didn't make the majors until he was 24, and Boggs played until he was 41 and barely made it. Ichiro didn't start until he was 27. By the time Yount was 27, he had 1,541 hits. Ichiro in his first 10 seasons, had 2,244 career hits, by that time he was 35. He blows these other guys away with the exception of Cobb and maybe Musial.
It goes back to that oft-cited Joe Posnanski blog about Ichiro - and Nolan Ryan.

The dude just wanted hits. That's it.
 

worm0082

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I thought Nick Markakis could have reached 3000 if he hung around 4 more years or so. He retired after last season with about 2400 after age 36 season.
 

Jim Ed Rice in HOF

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I'll add that doing a little research it just goes to show what a freak Ichiro was. Almost everyone that collected 3,000 hits started as a teenager or in their early 20s. Boggs would be the only other player I would say got a late start, as he didn't make the majors until he was 24, and Boggs played until he was 41 and barely made it. Ichiro didn't start until he was 27. By the time Yount was 27, he had 1,541 hits.
You added another freak guy in your post too with Yount almost finishing his first full year before turning 19.
 

jmcc5400

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I don't think you can completely rule out Cano. He has 2,624 hits and raked last year. Yes, he turns 39 in a week (and was suspended this year), but if both leagues go to a DH maybe he sticks around a few more years.
 

Kliq

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I don't think you can completely rule out Cano. He has 2,624 hits and raked last year. Yes, he turns 39 in a week (and was suspended this year), but if both leagues go to a DH maybe he sticks around a few more years.
Yeah I suppose it's possible with Cano. But there is probably a correlation to him raking last year and him being suspended for this year...
 

Wily Mo Lester

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I doubt he was going to get 65 hits in the last ~7 weeks of the season, but I bet Bonds thinks the '94 strike screwed him out of the club.
 

Ale Xander

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lineup position is important. I like Altuve over X, Freeman, Devers etc
 

Kliq

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I have a take where I think that baseball had a significant talent shortage in the early 2010s, where there was basically a generation of stars who never made it to a HoF level, at least on the hitting side, and that has left us with few people in their mid-to-late 30s who have impressive counting stats. Look back at the teams who were good in the early 2010s; don't you feel like the best teams from the last few seasons roll them? Those Giant teams that won three World Series and the Royals team that made it to two World Series don't feel like world beaters. From players who peaked during that time period, how any HoF hitters are there? Cabrera is the only real lock (unless you want to count Pujols/Papi as that era) and then you have like, Joe Mauer, Joey Votto, Chase Utley; guys who may get in but no world beaters. I don't know, I might be wrong but it feels like there are way more great players today.
 

Daniel_Son

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There is no one in the game right now that has a realistic shot at 300 wins. Verlander is at 226 and is 38. Grienke at 219, Lester at 200 etc. That's a club that we won't see any new members on anytime soon.
I wonder if Scherzer has a shot. 190 wins through age 36, but he really doesn't seem to be slowing down at all.
 

Erik Hanson's Hook

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This is a great post but the bolded is slander. A career OPS+ of 112 while primarily playing C and 2B, while finishing with 650+ 2B, 400+ SB, 290+ HR, and average to very good defense at C, 2B, and three outfield positions is.... well, it's really good. If he had retired before his age 41 season and had finished with only 2930 hits, he'd still have made the HOF, no question.
Thank you for taking care of this so I didn't have to.

Shame on you, @Kliq.
There were steroid rumors surrounding Biggio for years.

Unfounded? Unfair? Possibly. Probably. But a quick Google search of "Craig Biggio steroids" will show he is/was in the orbit of that conversation.

What if he gives Guerrero a call?
Confused as to how Alex Guerrero is pertinent to this conversation, unless it's the tried-and-true SoSH meme of taking potshots at him. In that case, I get it.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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Hard to see anyone ever getting 300 wins again with the way baseball is today. There was 1 guy who won 20, and 4 guys who threw more than 200 innings. 41 guys made 30 or more starts.

Could Cole win 183 more before he retires? He would need 18+ the next 10 years (and he would be 40) - seems unlikely.

Scherzer - could he win 110 more - he would have to win 15+ for the next 7 years? He is already 36.

Verlander - needs 74 and is 38. Does he have 5 plus years left where he is winning 15+ ?
 

Kliq

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300 wins isn't happening and I think, unless baseball really changes, it isn't going to come back. What you would need would be a perfect storm of someone who has like a Verlander/Kershaw/Scherzer esque-peak for a decade or more, where they win 15-20 games every season, even with pitchers going shorter into games and whatever. Then that same player would need to have a Bartolo Colon like run in their 40s where they just pitch a long time (Colon won 76 games after he turned 40) to limp across the finish line.

That or someone with just the greatest knuckleball in history.
 

Kliq

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Another factor is that these guys have all made just insane amounts of money compared to most of their predecessors and while it isn't football, the idea of dealing with more pain in your 40s while also grinding through the regular season and taking time away from your family is less appealing when you've already made more money then you'll ever know what to do with.
 

Marciano490

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There were steroid rumors surrounding Biggio for years.

Unfounded? Unfair? Possibly. Probably. But a quick Google search of "Craig Biggio steroids" will show he is/was in the orbit of that conversation.



Confused as to how Alex Guerrero is pertinent to this conversation, unless it's the tried-and-true SoSH meme of taking potshots at him. In that case, I get it.
It wasn’t a potshot. There seem to be training send supplements now that allow athletes to continue performing at high levels later in their lives than before (beyond outliers like Ryan or Paige). I think it’ll be interesting to see whether our expectations regarding longevity are reset in the coming years, or if Brady is the outlier.
 

CaptainLaddie

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I still think the most unbreakable record in baseball isn't career wins -- but losses. I bet we see someone throw back-to-back-to-back no hitters before a pitcher loses 316 games in a career. Maddux had 227 (he's the most recent retiree on the top 25), and he's still 90 behind sole possession of first place. Greinke is the current leader, and he's at 132 -- 185 losses behind first. Even someone like MadBum, who's only 31, is only at 106. I guess he will eventually pass Greinke?
 

johnmd20

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I still think the most unbreakable record in baseball isn't career wins -- but losses. I bet we see someone throw back-to-back-to-back no hitters before a pitcher loses 316 games in a career. Maddux had 227 (he's the most recent retiree on the top 25), and he's still 90 behind sole possession of first place. Greinke is the current leader, and he's at 132 -- 185 losses behind first. Even someone like MadBum, who's only 31, is only at 106. I guess he will eventually pass Greinke?
They are both unbreakable.

Cy Young won 511 games. 300 wins isn't even 60% of the way there.

And, as this thread is making clear, winning 300 games is not going to happen in the future. 511 wins is basically impossible.
 

Kliq

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I still think the most unbreakable record in baseball isn't career wins -- but losses. I bet we see someone throw back-to-back-to-back no hitters before a pitcher loses 316 games in a career. Maddux had 227 (he's the most recent retiree on the top 25), and he's still 90 behind sole possession of first place. Greinke is the current leader, and he's at 132 -- 185 losses behind first. Even someone like MadBum, who's only 31, is only at 106. I guess he will eventually pass Greinke?
Nobody is losing more than 315 games, but unlike the 511 wins, people in the modern era have gotten relatively close. Pitchers with extraordinarily long career have sniffed it. Ryan lost 292 career games, Niekro lost 274, Gaylord Perry lost 265.
 

loshjott

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I remember reading an article around when Glavine was approaching 300 wins speculating who else could do it. The one name I remember from the article was Sabathia. That would have been around 2006-07 when he had ~100 wins and he retired with 251. I don't see it ever happening again.
 
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cannonball 1729

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I ran a few likely candidates through the formula. Ranked in order of their estimated chance of reaching 3,000 hits, they are:
18.7% Vlad Jr. (372 hits, established hit level of 167, estimated remaining hits 1806)
18.5% Freddie Freeman (1296 hits, established hit level of 185, estimated remaining hits 888)
18.3% Rafael Devers (598 hits, established hit level of 171, estimated remaining hits 1641)
14.5% Jose Altuve (1777 hits, established hit level of 146, estimated remaining hits 789)
14.4% Trea Turner (839 hits, established hit level of 194, estimated remaining hits 1393)
11.7% Xander Bogaerts (1239 hits, established hit level of 165, estimated remaining hits 1086)
This system doesn't think Trout or Goldschmidt have any chance of reaching 3,000 hits.

Manny Machado 19% (1425 hits, established hit level of 165, estimated remaining hits 1087)
These numbers together give about a 71% chance of at least one of these seven players reaching 3,000. So that seems like a reasonable chance. If the Fangraphs numbers are right, that number is even higher.


I have a take where I think that baseball had a significant talent shortage in the early 2010s, where there was basically a generation of stars who never made it to a HoF level, at least on the hitting side, and that has left us with few people in their mid-to-late 30s who have impressive counting stats.
This is probably accurate, but it strikes me that "talent shortage" may not be the right phrasing - it's more just that those players aged poorly. Peak Joe Mauer hit .365 with power as a catcher, but he fell off a cliff at 31 (as many sluggers do - age 31 is like midnight for many sluggers and catchers). Josh Hamilton hit .359/.411/.653 for a season and then rediscovered drugs and women who were not his wife. Jose Bautista had his breakthrough at age 29 but fell off at 31. Carlos Pena did basically the same thing. Dustin Pedroia got Manny Machadoed. Kevin Youkilis got injured. The list goes on.

A similar thing happened in the 70's....there were few shoe-in HOFers in that era because many of the best players aged so badly. But writers felt like their era needed to be represented, which is why we had all of the debates with lines like "I know the stats don't back it up, but Jack Morris was a big-game pitcher and Jim Rice was feared!" No one wants to feel like their era didn't have anyone who was good.
 

Bozo Texino

still hates Dave Kerpen
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
8,248
Austin, Texas
There were steroid rumors surrounding Biggio for years.

Unfounded? Unfair? Possibly. Probably. But a quick Google search of "Craig Biggio steroids" will show he is/was in the orbit of that conversation.



Confused as to how Alex Guerrero is pertinent to this conversation, unless it's the tried-and-true SoSH meme of taking potshots at him. In that case, I get it.
Biggio played on a team with Bagwell and Caminiti - that seems to be the ONLY "evidence" of his supposed steroid abuse.

If that same standard were to be applied to other players, then NOBODOY from the 90s and early aughts would sniff the Hall.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
5,283
Boston, MA
In just the last 5 years, starting pitchers have gone from being involved in 68% of decisions to 60%. It's going to be impossible to rack up even 250 wins in a career if you're not around to get either a win or loss in 2/5 of the games you start. The game will have to swing back in the other direction for it to become realistic again.