Is it time to talk about Coach Brad?

Cesar Crespo

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OK Example......We play .400-500 ball the rest of this season. (under an Interim)
We bring in SOMEBODY for next year. He also goes .500
We all say well he needs a year for his system to take hold.
He comes back the following season and we go @.500.
Tatum is pissed. Jalen is pissed. They demand a trade. We change the coach to try to appease. But one of them stays pissed.
We trade them for Quarters on the Dollar because we have to and now the new coach is stuck with a less talented roster.
Somewhere in here Ainge is fired. (which may be part of your hope) and replaced by SOMEONE.
So 5 years, 3 coaches and 2 GMs from now Tatum is a FA and says screw this, too much change and chaos. I am going go play with my friend in ______.


SO yeah I think it could get alot worse and Backfire quite badly.

Question 1:Do you think Stevens is a Bad Coach? Where does he rank in the league?
Question 2: Do you think Ainge is a good exec? Where does he rank in the league?
Question 3: How does Tatum (and Brown) actually feel. (we dont and probably cant KNOW this. Until its clear that he cant exist with CBS and or DA then its silly to make a change because "Often the Grass is greener". Often it isnt.)

Look at 2019-2020 We were coming off a miserable season of Kyrie trying to wreck it all. CBS coaches them to the ECF.

I am not saying that CBS or DA is untouchable. But this year is not the year to decide that. See how a fresh year shakes out next year. if its bad then Wyc has a heart to heart with Tatum (maybe with DA, maybe without). Then you decide.
Cool. I can make some wild ass scenarios where Brad Stevens stays, the team doesn't make the playoffs this year, finishes under .500 next year. Tatum and Brown get pissed off and demand trades etc.
 

lovegtm

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I don't recall posting those things. I don't know how the ownership group views Stevens, the team's progress versus their planning or anything. You and others seem to have some insight but you keep playing coy when we ask about the nature of your sources.

That said, I think good management understands that even if your process is sound, you still will have many poor outcomes (e.g. losses and playoff defeats). It really depends on where you are versus your bogey. If you are suffering more bad outcomes than you anticipated, at some point, you have to question your processes and measurement techniques. Are we there yet? You know better than we do.

In the end, Stevens lives or dies as Celtics coach based on how Tatum and Brown feel about him. My view is if someone is claiming he has lost them "because I saw the body language on my TV and Perk agrees!" (side note, Perk's brand is trolling current players so I am not sure he is someone with whom to align yourself), you need to show actual supporting evidence. Otherwise, you are just a member of the "storm is coming" crowd with an NBA twist.
Most people here have been saying "if" he has lost them, not "he has lost them." It's really not a hard distinction to understand.

I'll admit that I'm willing to go further and say that I think something is wrong based on their lack of execution, cohesiveness and energy throughout the year, including players who have been healthy.

Is the something wrong Brad? I don't know, but if ownership feels that it is, they have hard choices to make.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Most people here have been saying "if" he has lost them, not "he has lost them." It's really not a hard distinction to understand.

I'll admit that I'm willing to go further and say that I think something is wrong based on their lack of execution, cohesiveness and energy throughout the year, including players who have been healthy.

Is the something wrong Brad? I don't know, but if ownership feels that it is, they have hard choices to make.
Fair enough.

YRMV but I see a lot more definitive takes around this forum about team chemistry, who is coming and going what this team's ceiling is now and beyond and how games/series and careers will play out. If a person is pretty confident about how things will play out, as someone who 100% cannot see the future I am in no position to disabuse them of that view. My only preference is that if someone is going to tell us how it currently is or will be, they provide something other than anecdotal evidence from a game broadcast or reading between the lines of a quote.

Lastly, chemistry matters a great deal imo. However my experience leads me to the conclusion that unless you are in the lockerroom, its really hard to know and even then it may be confusing. What if X, who is your biggest star, loves the coach but everyone else hates them? What if the team likes them but ownership or the front office does not? What if there are factions within the team? Etc. etc. I have a hard time believing most people who post in this forum have a good feel for these dynamics but anything is possible.

I will conclude by saying that there is nothing "wrong" per se. Life (COVID, Walker's health, Smart's calf, Brown's knee etc) came at them and they didn't nail all the big stuff. That said, they have two very good to elite wings and Williams with which to build plus some other rotational depth. Things may seem dire, especially this year, but they still have a lot of longer term upside.

In short, I stand by my view that if they can add more top end talent, this team is a serious contender but that is merely one outcome. Its not a promise.
 

Cellar-Door

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You don’t feel the Boston Celtics ownership group views their investment as a results-oriented business? Do you feel they really care who the coach is over the results that the coach is giving them?
I think the Celtics ownership is both, and I think they are smart enough to look at a team that got them a whole lot of home playoff games and see that as great results. Wyc and company aren't sell out for a Championship immediately at all cost guys, they've proven that, they want to build long term success. They're not a Dave Dombrowski to steal a baseball comparison, they don't want 1 title then a bunch of lean years
 

bakahump

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Cool. I can make some wild ass scenarios where Brad Stevens stays, the team doesn't make the playoffs this year, finishes under .500 next year. Tatum and Brown get pissed off and demand trades etc.
Exactly.

IDK what you dont understand. Many (including you) are assuming "Wild Ass Scenrios" where firing Brad Fixes the issues with the team. Without any kind of proof. When I point out that Firing Brad may not only not be better but could be worse You respond with "Cool".

BUT I can further point to "A shitty Locker Room/End of Season" (Thanks Kyrie) that was then followed up with a Team COACHED BY BRAD that Made the ECF (against almost everyones expectations) and came within a long whisker of making the Finals.

So I guess I would say History is on my side of "Bring him back and see if a Normal non Covid F'd season is any better".
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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and yet, Brad just keeps switching everything, rarely switches to zone to shake things up
Just because I had posted this article before the Cs (as of the end of March) were 8th in zone frequency in the NBA: https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/3/28/22344587/in-the-zone-what-makes-boston-celtics-zone-defense-great-robert-williams-jaylen-brown-marcus-smart.

The Celtics were a Top-6 team in the pre-season Championship Odds betting market and as high as tied for 4th in one that I saw. While I never agreed with that it is revisionist history to suggest that this season was viewed as a bridge year by many people......and the ownership group certainly can’t be pleased.
According to RealGM, the Cs are the 6th youngest team in the NBA. Without knowing where to look this up, I would bet a very little money that if the Cs won the Championship, they'd be one of the youngest - if not the youngest - team ever to win a title.

Also, according to BRef, the Cs have the 14th highest payroll this year. #1 is GSW, who would be competing for a title notwithstanding injuries, and the next 7 are: BRK, PHI, LAC, LAL, MIL, UT, and MIA. The only team that IMO has a realistic chance at the title that has a lower payroll than BOS is DEN. (PHO also does but I doubt they will come out of the West.)

When we talk about what ownership is going to do with Brad, I think we also have to mention pocketbook. There is a huge tax bill coming due at some point but the owners are reaping a lot of benefits of staying below the luxury tax line this year. Also, I suspect that DA has been stockpiling his picks because he needs cheap contributors once JT and JB (plus others) get expensive and trying to cycle through ring-chasers and other players team don't want is a difficult and thankless task.
 

HomeRunBaker

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When we talk about what ownership is going to do with Brad, I think we also have to mention pocketbook. There is a huge tax bill coming due at some point but the owners are reaping a lot of benefits of staying below the luxury tax line this year. Also, I suspect that DA has been stockpiling his picks because he needs cheap contributors once JT and JB (plus others) get expensive and trying to cycle through ring-chasers and other players team don't want is a difficult and thankless task.
Ainge needs cheap contributors bc he painted himself into a corner with the Kemba deal. It isn’t like oh poor Danny here.....this is the bed he made.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That's not clear path?
Just because I had posted this article before the Cs (as of the end of March) were 8th in zone frequency in the NBA: https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/3/28/22344587/in-the-zone-what-makes-boston-celtics-zone-defense-great-robert-williams-jaylen-brown-marcus-smart.
Well, as the article says, they seem to be way more successful in their zone than they are man to man. They may be 8th in the league in zone efficiency, but they are only using it 4.1% of the time. Charlotte is over 14% at #1.

When you have a team with such a glaring hole on defense (Kemba), running man to man 96% of time just doesn't seem to work. Teams are just switching Kemba to death.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Exactly.

IDK what you dont understand. Many (including you) are assuming "Wild Ass Scenrios" where firing Brad Fixes the issues with the team. Without any kind of proof. When I point out that Firing Brad may not only not be better but could be worse You respond with "Cool".

BUT I can further point to "A shitty Locker Room/End of Season" (Thanks Kyrie) that was then followed up with a Team COACHED BY BRAD that Made the ECF (against almost everyones expectations) and came within a long whisker of making the Finals.

So I guess I would say History is on my side of "Bring him back and see if a Normal non Covid F'd season is any better".
You are just very defensive over Brad Stevens. It's a message board and it's based on an ASSUMPTION if he lost the team. IF. It also requires assuming. It's also not a wild ass scenario. Your scenario is a pure slippery slope. Sorry this bothers you so much.

It's also funny because you and a lot of people are talking out both sides of your mouth. The 18/19 season was a dumpster fire but also Brad Stevens overachieved. Yeah, ok. Which one is it? A dumpster fire or overachieving? Or is it somehow both?

Sorry not everyone thinks your binky is above reproach.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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You are just very defensive over Brad Stevens. It's a message board and it's based on an ASSUMPTION if he lost the team. IF. It also requires assuming. It's also not a wild ass scenario. Your scenario is a pure slippery slope. Sorry this bothers you so much.

It's also funny because you and a lot of people are talking out both sides of your mouth. The 18/19 season was a dumpster fire but also Brad Stevens overachieved. Yeah, ok. Which one is it? A dumpster fire or overachieving? Or is it somehow both?

Sorry not everyone thinks your binky is above reproach.
So, your idea is based on an assumption (your words), but his scenario is a slippery slope?

Ok then.

Look, you cant have it both ways. Either Brad has lost the locker room, or Danny didnt fill out the roster well enough. I think we all agree the roster is shallow. If that's the case, we cant isolate "Brad lost the players" as the source of issue. Of the roster sucks, that trumps any "player is tuning out" nonsense.
 

Cesar Crespo

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So, your idea is based on an assumption (your words), but his scenario is a slippery slope?

Ok then.

Look, you cant have it both ways. Either Brad has lost the locker room, or Danny didnt fill out the roster well enough. I think we all agree the roster is shallow. If that's the case, we cant isolate "Brad lost the players" as the source of issue. Of the roster sucks, that trumps any "player is tuning out" nonsense.

It can definitely be Brad and Danny.

And how is the assumption that Brad lost the team a slippery slope? It's plausible. But whatever. Even if Stevens is just the scapegoat, talking about the scenario of replacing him is totally fine.

Baka's scenario is cockamamie and he appears upset we are even discussing the possibility of replacing Brad Stevens. He went on a tangent about Jayson Tatum in the Tatum thread related to Stevens.
 

slamminsammya

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Look, you cant have it both ways. Either Brad has lost the locker room, or Danny didnt fill out the roster well enough. I think we all agree the roster is shallow. If that's the case, we cant isolate "Brad lost the players" as the source of issue. Of the roster sucks, that trumps any "player is tuning out" nonsense.
Wait, what? What is the contradiction in both Brad has lost the locker room and Danny filled the back of the roster with shit? Why does the problem have to have one source? Those two could both be true and both be causes for problems this year.
 

HomeRunBaker

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So, your idea is based on an assumption (your words), but his scenario is a slippery slope?

Ok then.

Look, you cant have it both ways. Either Brad has lost the locker room, or Danny didnt fill out the roster well enough. I think we all agree the roster is shallow. If that's the case, we cant isolate "Brad lost the players" as the source of issue. Of the roster sucks, that trumps any "player is tuning out" nonsense.
I definitely feel it is a combination of the two but primarily Danny since he does the shopping. You can’t make a great Italian meal with Ragu from the jar but you can spice it up a little bit.
 

ManicCompression

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According to RealGM, the Cs are the 6th youngest team in the NBA. Without knowing where to look this up, I would bet a very little money that if the Cs won the Championship, they'd be one of the youngest - if not the youngest - team ever to win a title.
This is a super important point. 8 of the 15 players on roster are in their second year or rookie year, meaning they've only been in the NBA during the COVID experience - limited practices, shortened offseason, compressed season, etc. That's going to have an impact.

Going into the year, my expectations were that they'd float around .500 like a lot of the league for most of the seasons and then try to make some hay in the playoffs. The ride has sucked because Tatum and Brown have been infuriating at different points and the team has been injured, but looking back it feels like this is well within the most likely outcomes. The Celtics will probably be the fourth or fifth seed, behind MIL, BK, and PHI... which makes sense because those are all more talented teams.

Brad hasn't knocked it out of the park and he definitely has some warts, but I don't think he's performing poorly. It's an average season given the circumstances.
 

OurF'ingCity

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This is a super important point. 8 of the 15 players on roster are in their second year or rookie year, meaning they've only been in the NBA during the COVID experience - limited practices, shortened offseason, compressed season, etc. That's going to have an impact.

Going into the year, my expectations were that they'd float around .500 like a lot of the league for most of the seasons and then try to make some hay in the playoffs. The ride has sucked because Tatum and Brown have been infuriating at different points and the team has been injured, but looking back it feels like this is well within the most likely outcomes. The Celtics will probably be the fourth or fifth seed, behind MIL, BK, and PHI... which makes sense because those are all more talented teams.

Brad hasn't knocked it out of the park and he definitely has some warts, but I don't think he's performing poorly. It's an average season given the circumstances.
It's also not like the Celtics are the only team that is struggling. They're only a half-game back of the defending Eastern Conference champion Miami Heat. Should the Heat be thinking about firing Spoelstra? If not, what is different about Brad's performance vs. Spoelstra's?

Danny is a different story - I think there is more room for criticism there, although I also think that those saying he screwed up the roster need to show their work and explain what they would have done differently given the circumstances. But that's a topic for another thread.
 

mauf

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It's also not like the Celtics are the only team that is struggling. They're only a half-game back of the defending Eastern Conference champion Miami Heat. Should the Heat be thinking about firing Spoelstra? If not, what is different about Brad's performance vs. Spoelstra's?
Spolestra is in Pop/Kerr territory. I like CBS better than most here but he’s not remotely on that level. He’s more like Doc Rivers or Nick Nurse — an above-average coach, but not someone you’d hesitate to fire if things changed such that he’s no longer a fit for the roster. In Miami, you’d seriously consider revamping the roster to fit Spolestra.
 

lexrageorge

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Spolestra is in Pop/Kerr territory. I like CBS better than most here but he’s not remotely on that level. He’s more like Doc Rivers or Nick Nurse — an above-average coach, but not someone you’d hesitate to fire if things changed such that he’s no longer a fit for the roster. In Miami, you’d seriously consider revamping the roster to fit Spolestra.
Spoelstra won 2 titles with the Miami super team. But I'm curious why that makes him as untouchable as Popovich or Kerr; Brad Stevens has never had a roster nearly as good as those Miami teams.
 

ManicCompression

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It's also not like the Celtics are the only team that is struggling. They're only a half-game back of the defending Eastern Conference champion Miami Heat. Should the Heat be thinking about firing Spoelstra? If not, what is different about Brad's performance vs. Spoelstra's?
Not to mention that Tyler Herro, the guy everyone was lusting after last year, has at best not shown any improvement and at worst regressed from his rookie year. Is that the fault of Spo's player development? Or is it the fact that there's no been no time for player development (especially for teams like the Heat and Celtics that went far in the playoffs)? The teams kicking ass this year are heavy with veteran stars and the rest of them are figuring it out on the fly.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Spolestra is in Pop/Kerr territory. I like CBS better than most here but he’s not remotely on that level. He’s more like Doc Rivers or Nick Nurse — an above-average coach, but not someone you’d hesitate to fire if things changed such that he’s no longer a fit for the roster. In Miami, you’d seriously consider revamping the roster to fit Spolestra.
Don't need to go off on too much of a tangent on this but Spoelstra's teams did great when they had the LBJ-Wade-Bosh big three, and then have done mediocre after that. From 2015 through now Stevens has a better regular-season winning percentage and more playoff wins than Spoelstra.

I'm not going to argue that Spoelstra isn't a good coach, my point is just to point out how arbitrary it is to connect a team's record (particularly over the course of only a single season, and particularly over the course of this weird, Covid-affected season) to a coach's talents or perceived ability to "connect" with a given team.

Edit: I mean, there will presumably come a time where it does make sense to part ways with Stevens. My point is just that basing it off this season standing alone seems short-sighted. (Even if it is true that Tatum and/or Brown don't like him now, I'm not sure that necessarily will mean anything come next season after roster changes, the players having a hopefully normal offseason, etc.)
 

Cellar-Door

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Yeah to me Spoelstra and Brad are in the same tier, and Kerr is in that tier too. Pop has the top tier to himself.
 

bankshot1

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I think there are so many candidates and degrees of culpability for whats wrong with the Celts this year, that to debate if Wyc cuts a severance check to Brad' or Danny is pretty much devoid of sound reason and is a premature conclusion to come to. And yes CBS and Danny own some of the '20-21 Celts shit-pie. But I think firing a good NBA coach (or GM) under the challenging conditions they've dealt with for the past few years, and still getting the team to compete at the highest levels for the past several years, is over-reacting and probably self-defeating. With some luck they likely would have lost in 2 NBA Finals. But this has not been a lucky team.

As posted before, this team may be burned out by the last years bubble run, combined with too many key guys being injured, (kemba) infected (Tatum, Smart) and or ineffective (the list is too long). At this point they may hate each other.

This is a young team with IMO insufficient vet leadership or a good PG to refocus the team. I had hoped that TT and Teague were going to help in the leadership area and that Kemba was going to be healthy enough to run the offense and play decent D. I was also hoping for leadership from one of of The Js. I thought Jaylen the more likely. Tatum has not shown leadership qualities. He may need to mature or he may always be a follower, and a #2.

TL's play is the biggest pleasant surprise this year, but as we saw and most of us knew, he was overpowered against an elite 5 like Embiid. There have been too many bench guys playing starter minutes, that are not NBA starters. That they're a .500 team is not surprising. But it sucks and they're not fun to watch.

There still may be time for this team to pull itself together for a decent play-off run. Or maybe they (from GM to the 15th guy) need a TO and a real off-season, to reassess a disappointing year, and recommit to being better in '21-22.
 

bakahump

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You are just very defensive over Brad Stevens. It's a message board and it's based on an ASSUMPTION if he lost the team. IF. It also requires assuming. It's also not a wild ass scenario. Your scenario is a pure slippery slope. Sorry this bothers you so much.

It's also funny because you and a lot of people are talking out both sides of your mouth. The 18/19 season was a dumpster fire but also Brad Stevens overachieved. Yeah, ok. Which one is it? A dumpster fire or overachieving? Or is it somehow both?

Sorry not everyone thinks your binky is above reproach.
Yea sorry my scenerio is crazy but yours is above reproach.

If your read and not react you will see I Said that in 2018-19 The Locker Room Sucked (Because Kyrie and Morris) and the Season ended as a Shit Show. THE FOLLOWING YEAR....."My Binky" coached the team BACK TO THE ECF.

SO by that logic, its at least reasonable to assume that Despite a tough year THIS YEAR (For A MULTITUDE of Reasons....that seems to be effecting many teams) He may Well come back NEXT YEAR and get them back to ECF type levels.

While your logic is "Lots of coaches have lost teams, they looked like shit, so Brad has lost them".

MY repeated stance is "Lets See what next Year brings" if next year is as shitty as this year then yeah time to figure out what to do with my "binky".

Maybe your "Binkies" (IE Tatum, Brown and CO) need to look in the mirror. or maybe a 1/3 of your teams turnovers is ok with you.

I like Tatum. I think he is a very good to Great player. But he still is making stupid mistakes that are hurting the team. He is also getting a free pass almost every night while Stevens is getting consistantly shat upon for "having lost the locker room". Which again we have NO PROOF OF.
(And Tatum is by no means the only one).

I wonder what your stance would be if Tatum stood up and said "we love Brad, he is doing all he can. He is trying to put us in positions to win. We are simply not producing".
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yea sorry my scenerio is crazy but yours is above reproach.

If your read and not react you will see I Said that in 2018-19 The Locker Room Sucked (Because Kyrie and Morris) and the Season ended as a Shit Show. THE FOLLOWING YEAR....."My Binky" coached the team BACK TO THE ECF.

SO by that logic, its at least reasonable to assume that Despite a tough year THIS YEAR (For A MULTITUDE of Reasons....that seems to be effecting many teams) He may Well come back NEXT YEAR and get them back to ECF type levels.

While your logic is "Lots of coaches have lost teams, they looked like shit, so Brad has lost them".

MY repeated stance is "Lets See what next Year brings" if next year is as shitty as this year then yeah time to figure out what to do with my "binky".

Maybe your "Binkies" (IE Tatum, Brown and CO) need to look in the mirror. or maybe a 1/3 of your teams turnovers is ok with you.

I like Tatum. I think he is a very good to Great player. But he still is making stupid mistakes that are hurting the team. He is also getting a free pass almost every night while Stevens is getting consistantly shat upon for "having lost the locker room". Which again we have NO PROOF OF.
(And Tatum is by no means the only one).

I wonder what your stance would be if Tatum stood up and said "we love Brad, he is doing all he can. He is trying to put us in positions to win. We are simply not producing".
I didn't say he lost them. I said if he lost them. The team has also played like shit for 2 of the last 3 seasons so this isn't something new or fresh. He has been a shit coach 2 of the last 3 years. You admitted it yourself. Again he is your binky. You can't stand the guy criticized.

Your whole post is you whining that we are discussing Brad in a negative light. Boohoo. Is Brad your dad?

And even if he is putting the C's in a position to win, it's his fault the players are not producing. That's the coaches job.

Also there are 50000 excuses for Brad Stevens. Everyone is playing under the same circumstances and Brad is doing it worse than a lot of other coaches.

BRAD STEVENS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR JAYSON TATUM"S immaturity and mistakes.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Again What Would you have Brad Stevens do to Jayson Tatum?
I don't know. It's not my job. If he doesn't know what to do with Jayson Tatum, maybe he shouldn't be our coach though. That part seems very obvious to me. He should probably figure it the fuck out or he shouldn't have a job.
 

Cesar Crespo

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In a world where Tatum is the problem, you still don't move on from him until you try him with a different coach. It's easier to replace Brad than Tatum.

It doesn't matter anyway because the C's aren't going to make any FO changes.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't know. It's not my job. If he doesn't know what to do with Jayson Tatum, maybe he shouldn't be our coach though. That part seems very obvious to me. He should probably figure it the fuck out or he shouldn't have a job.
I mean... Jayson Tatum has developed into one of the best young players in the league under Stevens' tutelage and was having probably his best season before getting COVID... the jump to "Brad doesn't know what to do with him" is a massive one. The far more logical one is that the tanking of his performance in February and slow build in March was because COVID is nasty and has lingering effects
 

Cesar Crespo

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I mean... Jayson Tatum has developed into one of the best young players in the league under Stevens' tutelage and was having probably his best season before getting COVID... the jump to "Brad doesn't know what to do with him" is a massive one. The far more logical one is that the tanking of his performance in February and slow build in March was because COVID is nasty and has lingering effects
He asked me what Brad should do with him. I don't know. I think Tatum is fine and 95% of his problems are playing with bums like Semi and Grant Williams.

If you do happen to think something is wrong with Tatum, you have to blame Brad for it though. Especially if you are going to give him credit for Tatum's development.
 

bankshot1

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CC With all due respect, it appears you have a preconceived notion on how the dots get connected that do not seem well grounded in logic or the facts.

For example, is it Brad's fault, that in your words, Tatum has to play "with bums like GW or Semi"?

Wouldn't that be a fire Danny offense?
 

Cesar Crespo

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CC With all due respect, it appears you have a preconceived notion on how the dots get connected that do not seem well grounded in logic or the facts.

For example, is it Brad's fault, that in your words, Tatum has to play "with bums like GW or Semi".

Wouldn't that be a fire Danny offense?
Yeah, and I already said if the C"s missed the playoffs I'd be fine with replacing both Ainge and Stevens.

The roster being terrible because of Ainge and Brad getting less out of his team aren't mutually exclusive things.

Maybe Semi is a 3/10. Stevens has him playing like a 2/10. Ainge gets fault for having Semi on the roster. Stevens is at fault for not getting the most out of him.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Yeah to me Spoelstra and Brad are in the same tier, and Kerr is in that tier too. Pop has the top tier to himself.
Ironically if you apply the logic some in this thread have been using, Pop has been a "shit coach" in the last few years too. Pop clearly "lost the team" in 2017-18 much more than Stevens ever has, given that Kawhi essentially sat out the season even after his teammates asked him to come back, and then they got crushed in the first round that year. Then Kawhi left and they were the seventh seed the following year and again lost in the first round. And then last year they of course didn't make the playoffs at all and they may not this year either.

Which, again, is all to say that the talent level of a head coach is probably pretty far down the list of factors that affect an NBA team's play. Certainly on the margins it's critical, particularly in the playoffs, but a great coach with a mediocre roster is not somehow going to turn that team into a contender (and conversely a team with a top-tier roster is going to be very good regardless of their coach). And I don't think there can be much debate that for one reason or another the Cs have a mediocre-to-slightly-above-mediocre roster this year, so there is only so much Brad can do. If you replaced Brad with, say, Popopvich this year, does anyone really think this team's play would be that much better? Maybe they'd more clearly be the 4th-best team in the conference but I have a very hard time believing they'd stand much of a chance of truly contending with Philly/Milwaukee/Brooklyn this year regardless of coach.
 

lexrageorge

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It's comical how all arguments in favor of keeping Stevens are framed as either illogical or in bad faith.

I mean, we're connecting dots based on limited information. The team has underperformed expectations. The team has also had a ton of misfortune, and consists of a very young roster that probably is impacted more than others by the elimination of practices. Part of the reason the team has a young roster is a likely directive from the ownership to try to avoid the luxury tax, a directive that essentially made this season a bridge year, regardless of how many posters here object to that term.

Does all that absolve Stevens and Ainge of responsibility? Of course not. But there is certainly room for differing opinions as to whether replacing Stevens is the right move.
 

lovegtm

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Ironically if you apply the logic some in this thread have been using, Pop has been a "shit coach" in the last few years too. Pop clearly "lost the team" in 2017-18 much more than Stevens ever has, given that Kawhi essentially sat out the season even after his teammates asked him to come back, and then they got crushed in the first round that year. Then Kawhi left and they were the seventh seed the following year and again lost in the first round. And then last year they of course didn't make the playoffs at all and they may not this year either.

Which, again, is all to say that the talent level of a head coach is probably pretty far down the list of factors that affect an NBA team's play. Certainly on the margins it's critical, particularly in the playoffs, but a great coach with a mediocre roster is not somehow going to turn that team into a contender (and conversely a team with a top-tier roster is going to be very good regardless of their coach). And I don't think there can be much debate that for one reason or another the Cs have a mediocre-to-slightly-above-mediocre roster this year, so there is only so much Brad can do. If you replaced Brad with, say, Popopvich this year, does anyone really think this team's play would be that much better? Maybe they'd more clearly be the 4th-best team in the conference but I have a very hard time believing they'd stand much of a chance of truly contending with Philly/Milwaukee/Brooklyn this year regardless of coach.
I think there was a very good case for firing Pop after the Kawhi debacle, followed by (most likely) forcing the Spurs to take a package centered around a mediocre vet.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Wait, what? What is the contradiction in both Brad has lost the locker room and Danny filled the back of the roster with shit? Why does the problem have to have one source? Those two could both be true and both be causes for problems this year.
It certainly can be both, but good luck isolating it.

Fix one issue first and then move to the other. I'd hate to lose Brad because of "he lost the locker room" speak. We know the roster depth is an issue, and its fixable. Fix that in the offseason, and then review the situation.
 

Deathofthebambino

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If you replaced Brad with, say, Popopvich this year, does anyone really think this team's play would be that much better?

Maybe they'd more clearly be the 4th-best team in the conference but I have a very hard time believing they'd stand much of a chance of truly contending with Philly/Milwaukee/Brooklyn this year regardless of coach.
To answer the first question, yes, absolutely. Of course, it's completely unknowable, but that's my opinion. Of course, Pop (or anyone at Pop's level) ain't walking through that door.

Last year's Spurs team was 60:1 preseason to win the NBA championship. This year's Celtics team was 14:1. The Spurs roster last year was absolutely terrible, and he still managed to get them to an almost .500 record. If Danny gave Brad that roster, we might be hoping for Cade if the ping pong balls go the right way. On this year's Spurs team, their leading 3 point shooter who gets starters minutes is Patty Mills at .356, and somehow, Pop has them at almost the exact same record as this year's C's team. They have no Tatum or Brown on that team.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It certainly can be both, but good luck isolating it.

Fix one issue first and then move to the other. I'd hate to lose Brad because of "he lost the locker room" speak. We know the roster depth is an issue, and its fixable. Fix that in the offseason, and then review the situation.
Have you seen the C's financial situation? I'm going to guess next year is worse than this year unless they mortgage the future to get rid of Kemba Walker. They can't even afford to keep Evan Fournier as it stand right now. Not even close.

It'll be an interesting offseason but I have a feeling it's going to be incredibly disappointing.
 

slamminsammya

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This whole conversation just reminds me of how insane it was that the Bulls owner chose the GM over a HOF coach + best player ever.
 

HomeRunBaker

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It is this no matter what happens. Danny has his coach’s back and had no issues with him. They are a package deal, Danny ain’t firing Brad
In a nutshell yes I agree but it doesn’t always work this way. If Wyc, who calls the shots, tells Danny to fire Brad then guess what. I’d like to see a fresh start with so many young executives coming up the ranks with a ton of young assistant coaches who may connect better with JT and JB than Brad does. Or even if not “better” just “different” which can be all you need sometimes.
 

lexrageorge

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Have you seen the C's financial situation? I'm going to guess next year is worse than this year unless they mortgage the future to get rid of Kemba Walker. They can't even afford to keep Evan Fournier as it stand right now. Not even close.

It'll be an interesting offseason but I have a feeling it's going to be incredibly disappointing.
That seems like an extremely pessimistic take. There is going to be a huge shit ton of player movement this offseason, and Ainge absolutely should be able to take advantage of it. The Celtics got under the tax threshold this season, so they absolutely should be able to find a way to keep the players they want to keep.

If they run it back with the same roster (less Fournier), then I will be one of the first to jump on the "Fire Ainge" bandwagon, because it would be completely inexcusable.
 

Cellar-Door

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Have you seen the C's financial situation? I'm going to guess next year is worse than this year unless they mortgage the future to get rid of Kemba Walker. They can't even afford to keep Evan Fournier as it stand right now. Not even close.

It'll be an interesting offseason but I have a feeling it's going to be incredibly disappointing.
What? The Celtics dipped under the tax this year, they have essentially no financial issues next year. They almost certainly were planning on adding up to 25M minimum in salary (using the TPE). They can easily re-sign Fournier, and probably add decent money beyond that if they choose.
THe only real restriction they have is getting a player in a S&T is hard because of getting hard capped.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Have you seen the C's financial situation? I'm going to guess next year is worse than this year unless they mortgage the future to get rid of Kemba Walker. They can't even afford to keep Evan Fournier as it stand right now. Not even close.

It'll be an interesting offseason but I have a feeling it's going to be incredibly disappointing.
As others have said, finances shouldnt be the core issue next year.

But, take that off the table. Let's say Brad has lost the team. Name me some coaches that you think would turn these guys into motivated contenders. Because if we fire Brad and replace him with a Jim O'Brien type, I'd be comfortable saying that we are worse off.
 

HomeRunBaker

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As others have said, finances shouldnt be the core issue next year.

But, take that off the table. Let's say Brad has lost the team. Name me some coaches that you think would turn these guys into motivated contenders. Because if we fire Brad and replace him with a Jim O'Brien type, I'd be comfortable saying that we are worse off.
There are a ton of high quality assistants who will be getting head jobs in the coming years. Brian Keefe, Pat Delany, Wes Unself Jr, Charles Lee, and my top guy from the Nuggets, Jordi Hernandez. All younger guys who could connect well with our young core (especially Jordi).
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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There are a ton of high quality assistants who will be getting head jobs in the coming years. Brian Keefe, Pat Delany, Wes Unself Jr, Charles Lee, and my top guy from the Nuggets, Jordi Hernandez. All younger guys who could connect well with our young core (especially Jordi).
Is that the issue? 44 year old Brad Stevens is too old?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is that the issue? 44 year old Brad Stevens is too old?
People are speculating that he’s lost the team. Age has nothing to do with it if we need a new voice. Either way I’d expect our coach to be someone who connects with JT and JB whether it’s Brad or someone else. Some of these guys would be fine choices if that were the direction we go.
 

Jimbodandy

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There are a ton of high quality assistants who will be getting head jobs in the coming years. Brian Keefe, Pat Delany, Wes Unself Jr, Charles Lee, and my top guy from the Nuggets, Jordi Hernandez. All younger guys who could connect well with our young core (especially Jordi).
Now this is how you own it. Calling for a house cleaning, explaining why, even recommending coaching replacements.

The "maybe he lost the team. And if he lost the team, I'd be ok with whacking him" talk is equivocation.

I'm in the "they're both well above average and replacements are likely a step backwards" camp, since this last year is been a fucking shitshow in like ten million ways.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Now this is how you own it. Calling for a house cleaning, explaining why, even recommending coaching replacements.

The "maybe he lost the team. And if he lost the team, I'd be ok with whacking him" talk is equivocation.

I'm in the "they're both well above average and replacements are likely a step backwards" camp, since this last year is been a fucking shitshow in like ten million ways.
I’m not necessarily in the “he lost the team” camp and have stated I place more of his problems on Ainge making his job extremely difficult in two of the last three years. I do however feel that the players seem too comfortable such as JT treating the 1Q like it’s a layup line and our starters often coming out flat in the 3Q. A new voice can bring an urgency and a sense of competitiveness that I feel is missing.

My preference is for a néw GM after the season who brings to the interview his plan for his HC. My second choice would be for Wyc to force Danny’s hand to choose a different voice for this team to progress.
 

Cesar Crespo

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As others have said, finances shouldnt be the core issue next year.

But, take that off the table. Let's say Brad has lost the team. Name me some coaches that you think would turn these guys into motivated contenders. Because if we fire Brad and replace him with a Jim O'Brien type, I'd be comfortable saying that we are worse off.
Probably some guy I never heard of. I don't really care if they replace him or not but he is replaceable and so is Ainge.

Neither one is BB.
 

ManicCompression

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There are a ton of high quality assistants who will be getting head jobs in the coming years. Brian Keefe, Pat Delany, Wes Unself Jr, Charles Lee, and my top guy from the Nuggets, Jordi Hernandez. All younger guys who could connect well with our young core (especially Jordi).
Can you explain why an up and coming assistant would be a good fit for this team? I don't imagine that Jaylen/Jayson/Marcus/Kemba want to be coached by someone who's never done it before. If the issue is with Stevens "not connecting", then I'd imagine they want a coach who actually played in the mold of Steve Nash or Ty Lue or even Doc, someone who'd command their respect. Two years ago we could've made that switch, but I can't see our stars that are hitting max contracts wanting someone who'll learn on the job without that player cred.

Personally, I don't see how we do better than Stevens with a new coach unless we hire someone like D'Antoni (and that brings its own challenges). The problem with this team isn't chemistry or coaching so much as it's health and talent.