In-season NBA news thread

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
10,215
San Francisco
I would be fine with expanding the restricted area in exchange for calling more offensive fouls when the guy is methodically backing down in the post and bumping into the defender over and over again to move him off the spot, initiate contact, and force the hand of the refs. IOW, there should be more offensive calls awarded to on-ball defenders holding their position and fewer to off-ball guys sliding over to take charges.
Interesting, i feel the opposite. I wish we could bring back post play. A major reason it disappeared is that guys got so trained to try and draw charges down low, especially on size mismatches, which is a bastardization of trying to play actual defense.
 

m0ckduck

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,951
Yup

/GWill
Or, /Anyone ever guarding Luka
Interesting, i feel the opposite. I wish we could bring back post play. A major reason it disappeared is that guys got so trained to try and draw charges down low, especially on size mismatches, which is a bastardization of trying to play actual defense.
I agree about wanting more post play. But I don't think it disappeared because of guys' propensity for drawing fouls. It disappeared because the game moved towards pace and space and the 3 pointer. And, anyway, at its best, it was always about footwork, fakes, height, the turnaround jumper, etc– not about slowly and systematically banging into a guy over and over again while he runs the calculus in his head, Should I fall over now in order to draw attention to the contact? while the ref simultaneously runs the calculus in his head about When am I obligated to whistle the defensive player for a foul here?

My biggest gripe with the way post play is officiated is that the focus is on whether any single blow crosses the threshold of knocking the defender over. I'd like to see it called more incrementally as well: if an offensive player initiates contact 3+ times in the span of a few seconds against a defender holding his ground, it's a foul if the contact is enough to push the defender backwards, even if it's still not enough to knock him over.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
I would be fine with expanding the restricted area in exchange for calling more offensive fouls when the guy is methodically backing down in the post and bumping into the defender over and over again to move him off the spot, initiate contact, and force the hand of the refs. IOW, there should be more offensive calls awarded to on-ball defenders holding their position and fewer to off-ball guys sliding over to take charges.
That's been an issue for a long, long time. I feel like the college approach---which focuses on who initiated the contact--is a much more practical way to adjudicate these kinds of interactions. That would help on both post play (to address some of the bully-ball approaches) and charge/block. It's not a cure-all but it's a more useful way to think about what's allowed and not and changes the incentives --- guys like Butler and Giannis tody gamble that if they crash into a defender it will be judged to be in restricted area, defender won't be set, the defender's arm will make contact first, etc. What we ought to be doing is saying "if you run into someone you are presumptively getting the foul" absent something else occurring.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2016
22,851
Pittsburgh, PA
I would be fine with expanding the restricted area in exchange for calling more offensive fouls when the guy is methodically backing down in the post and bumping into the defender over and over again to move him off the spot, initiate contact, and force the hand of the refs. IOW, there should be more offensive calls awarded to on-ball defenders holding their position and fewer to off-ball guys sliding over to take charges.
Shaquille O'Neal's entire career was a lie.


...Also, I don't know how I feel about such a change aesthetically, to play it straight for a sec. When a player is on the block and backing someone down, he's very vulnerable to snipes in from other defenders going for the steal. Unless you're Shaq or Embiid and outweigh your defender by 50-80 lbs, it's going to take you a sec, and it may not be the best-value play all that often. Seems like it's still somewhat fair to the defense, as it's called today.

The attacker-initiated contact on cuts to the basket and the way that's called - always as a defensive foul,. no matter how ticky-tack the contact, and almost no matter how attacker-initiated it was - those are what I'd most like to see changed. It's one thing to protect cutters from Pistons Bad Boys style fouling. It'd be reasonable to make incidental contact there a no-call a high fraction of the time. But it's quite another to give them the benefit of the doubt and call every little thing against the defense, as it's done today. In short, I want LeBron to lose his goddamn mind protesting a no-call more often, I think that would be good for the game and for my general level of gruntledness.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,499
If you really want to legislate out the injuries via charge/block interactions the obvious answer is to tighten up the steps on the travel rule.... but they won't because without 2 plus a gather and a hop and the benefit of the doubt.... you get less big dunks. Most of these big falls come not in the normal charge block situations, but where a guy is taking huge leaps off 2 steps
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
That's been an issue for a long, long time. I feel like the college approach---which focuses on who initiated the contact--is a much more practical way to adjudicate these kinds of interactions. That would help on both post play (to address some of the bully-ball approaches) and charge/block. It's not a cure-all but it's a more useful way to think about what's allowed and not and changes the incentives --- guys like Butler and Giannis tody gamble that if they crash into a defender it will be judged to be in restricted area, defender won't be set, the defender's arm will make contact first, etc. What we ought to be doing is saying "if you run into someone you are presumptively getting the foul" absent something else occurring.
Isn't this, in essence, the change they made to in-the-act-of-shooting fouls a couple years back, where a shooter can't simply initiate contact with a defender simply because a defender is in the air?
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
Isn't this, in essence, the change they made to in-the-act-of-shooting fouls a couple years back, where a shooter can't simply initiate contact with a defender simply because a defender is in the air?
That was a very specific situation, I believe, around a defender who elevates. What I'd propose is that broadening the change to also cover (for example) Giannis trucking a defender who is slightly sliding to side to deny a lane to hoop, or a Shaq-like post player banging his large posterior into a set defender to create space and contact.

This is not a new thing, and there's lots of ways to look at it---agree expanding restricted area, thinking about traveling/euro step, etc. are others
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
That was a very specific situation, I believe, around a defender who elevates. What I'd propose is that broadening the change to also cover (for example) Giannis trucking a defender who is slightly sliding to side to deny a lane to hoop, or a Shaq-like post player banging his large posterior into a set defender to create space and contact.

This is not a new thing, and there's lots of ways to look at it---agree expanding restricted area, thinking about traveling/euro step, etc. are others
My point being that there is very recent precedent for a rule change to correct an overt trend where the offense takes advantage of the literal interpretation of the rules to draw a foul on what is, in essence, good defense.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,567
That's been an issue for a long, long time. I feel like the college approach---which focuses on who initiated the contact--is a much more practical way to adjudicate these kinds of interactions. That would help on both post play (to address some of the bully-ball approaches) and charge/block. It's not a cure-all but it's a more useful way to think about what's allowed and not and changes the incentives --- guys like Butler and Giannis tody gamble that if they crash into a defender it will be judged to be in restricted area, defender won't be set, the defender's arm will make contact first, etc. What we ought to be doing is saying "if you run into someone you are presumptively getting the foul" absent something else occurring.
I wonder if NBA defenders would live with a more restrictive charge rule if offensive players were prohibited from putting their shoulder into a defender to knock them back.
 

Five Cent Head

64th note
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2007
799
Seattle
People, please, it's too soon. We have to let fans mourn the injuries to the star players. In a few months or years we can talk about possible rule changes, but we shouldn't be bringing politics NBA rules into this right now. Instead it's the time for thoughts and prayers.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,001
around the way
Nurse was begging to be fired by season's end. I'm happy for him. The team completely checked out on him.

I was in a Keg in downtown Toronto for the play-in game loss and the crowd in the bar booed at the end. No surprise, just contempt. Then they started chanting to put on the Jays. The bartender switched over, and like 15 seconds later, the winning run crossed the plate in the 10th and the place erupted in celebration. Those cats turn the page pretty quickly.
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
47,676
Hartford, CT
Nurse was begging to be fired by season's end. I'm happy for him. The team completely checked out on him.

I was in a Keg in downtown Toronto for the play-in game loss and the crowd in the bar booed at the end. No surprise, just contempt. Then they started chanting to put on the Jays. The bartender switched over, and like 15 seconds later, the winning run crossed the plate in the 10th and the place erupted in celebration. Those cats turn the page pretty quickly.
They have had a lotta practice with the Maple Leafs.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,499
Nick Nurse fired, seems Ime is the favorite to take over. They didn’t even let Nurse resign lol.
I wouldn't read too much into that. Ime's agent has been working hard on Woj, every job that has opened Woj has tweeted he was a serious candidate. I don't think he's even gotten an interview (BKN, HOU, etc.)
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
11,029
I think Nurse has been talked about with the Rockets. Wouldn’t be surprised if he went there for a fat check and final say over roster
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,499
i don't think Nurse is interested in a rebuild. Some speculation that he's waiting on word whether Harden to HOU is real, if it is he'd sign up.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,499
IME would be a great choice for Toronto. There is defensive talent on that roster
Meh. They should hire Atkinson he's a better coach.
My guess is Ime never coaches in the NBA again, it's unclear if he's really that good and he's a big liability for legal and ownership to sign off on for a guy who doesn't have a real track record.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
The Nurse thing really fell apart hard and fast this year. Would be interesting to understand why---did he not relate to younger core? Just tired of his messages/approach? Cancerous players? He was super well regarded previously and it was clearly all falling apart by end of year.

Ujiri has a great track record and his treatment of Nurse at end suggests he wanted to send a message to team, doesn't it?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,567
My guess is Ime never coaches in the NBA again, it's unclear if he's really that good and he's a big liability for legal and ownership to sign off on for a guy who doesn't have a real track record.
I would be shocked if Ime never coaches again. You're correct that he doesn't really have a "track record" (TM) but he does have a "reputation" (TM) that's too tantalizing for every owner/GM to pass up.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,883
Santa Monica
My guess is Ime never coaches in the NBA again, it's unclear if he's really that good and he's a big liability for legal and ownership to sign off on for a guy who doesn't have a real track record.
I'd take the other side of that.

I don't know the specifics, but he broke a team policy. Never charged by authorities for one thing. He should be able to work again.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
Ime had a great track record as an assistant and one very strong season as a head coach, finishing fourth in coach of the year voting and getting a team to the finals; those both matter.

I do think it will take a certain ownership group to be comfortable with him, and part of them supporting him is likely tied to getting visibility into what happened with him here. Which is impossible for us to really assess - if he did all the bad things rumored, I agree he'll never get an NBA job. if, instead, he had a single affair with the wrong person (connected to an owner, etc.) and that is the story, I think his track record and rep gets him another job sooner rather than later.

We didn't get much clarity into how his relationship with Cs ended (e.g. midyear when CJM became coach, rather than interim, and Ime was officially 'gone'); if I were guessing, his agent realizes the above and negotiated with the Cs around how the team will enable him (or not make it harder) for him to interview for other jobs. That might be that Celtics agree to say and share nothing wtih anyone, or might be they agree to share a specific level of info (e.g. a summary of an internal investigation) with other team execs if requested, etc. What they are willing to share intersects with what actually happened in a bit of a matrix for other teams to navigate: if there's really bad stuff, Ime's agent likely would ask C's to simply refuse to discuss or share, and that will make it harder for teams to get comfortable with him (but not impossible); if there's relatively less-bad stuff, they might agree to disclose and that might help him get another job, etc. But that's just a guess....
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
8,339
i don't think Nurse is interested in a rebuild. Some speculation that he's waiting on word whether Harden to HOU is real, if it is he'd sign up.
Signing 34 year old Harden means Houston is no longer a rebuild?
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,001
around the way
The Nurse thing really fell apart hard and fast this year. Would be interesting to understand why---did he not relate to younger core? Just tired of his messages/approach? Cancerous players? He was super well regarded previously and it was clearly all falling apart by end of year.

Ujiri has a great track record and his treatment of Nurse at end suggests he wanted to send a message to team, doesn't it?
At some point, pretty much all of the greatest coaches (and lesser ones than they) eventually wear out their welcome with the players. Guys have a guy chirping in their ear and riding their ass for a few years and it turns to white noise over time. There are exceptions.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,499
I would be shocked if Ime never coaches again. You're correct that he doesn't really have a "track record" (TM) but he does have a "reputation" (TM) that's too tantalizing for every owner/GM to pass up.
That will fade. Maybe DAL to be fair would take him because they are run by trash people, but most owners are willing to look past legal exposure only so much and not for a guy with basically 50 games of success total.

I'd take the other side of that.

I don't know the specifics, but he broke a team policy. Never charged by authorities for one thing. He should be able to work again.
Maybe, but they had to hire an external law firm that found they should get rid of him, that screams sexual harassment issues to me, and hiring him opens you up to a lot of issues if he's accused again, and one thing sports owners really really don't like is people digging into discovery and testimony on their front offices. I also think we've seen that problems AT WORK are very different from beating your wife 10 years ago, or settling a rape lawsuit 25 years ago.

I think the reason Ime's agency is pushing him so hard for every job is that they know that if he doesn't get one quickly his odds of getting one go down, because the further you are from his successes, the less it can be used to overshadow downsides.

Ime had a great track record as an assistant and one very strong season as a head coach, finishing fourth in coach of the year voting and getting a team to the finals; those both matter.

I do think it will take a certain ownership group to be comfortable with him, and part of them supporting him is likely tied to getting visibility into what happened with him here. Which is impossible for us to really assess - if he did all the bad things rumored, I agree he'll never get an NBA job. if, instead, he had a single affair with the wrong person (connected to an owner, etc.) and that is the story, I think his track record and rep gets him another job sooner rather than later.
We'll never know exactly what happened, but it's clear that it was not just (or at all?) an affair with the wrong person, it's pretty clear from both sides leaks that at minimum that an employee filed a harrassment complaint against him (possibly after she broke off a consensual relationship and he refused to respect that).

Signing 34 year old Harden means Houston is no longer a rebuild?
Just passing on the rumors. My assumption is that if Harden is signing there, the plan is to move some of the picks and young guys for another star type player.
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
At some point, pretty much all of the greatest coaches (and lesser ones than they) eventually wear out their welcome with the players. Guys have a guy chirping in their ear and riding their ass for a few years and it turns to white noise over time. There are exceptions.
Agreed, but other than FVV and Siakam is it pretty new players there. I guess if he loses those two it goes a long way to losing the rest...
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,883
Santa Monica
whoever writes that MAX contract (& somebody will) for 34yr old James Harden will regret it.

You may get decent stats in year 1 from a heavily load-managed Harden, which will turn into a sunk cost for the next 3 seasons. Hoping Morey writes it (Harden's agent is pushing hard on the Houston rumors to force Daryl's hand)

A bit of shine might come off Ime considering Mazzulla stepped in and didn’t really miss a beat.
the talent on this years Celtic team is much greater than last season, and they were 2 games & a healthy Tatum from winning it all
 
Last edited:

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
We'll never know exactly what happened, but it's clear that it was not just (or at all?) an affair with the wrong person, it's pretty clear from both sides leaks that at minimum that an employee filed a harrassment complaint against him (possibly after she broke off a consensual relationship and he refused to respect that).
I am not an Ime defender, to be clear, and would also note that neither of us has any idea what happened, Thus, I personaly think better to acknowledge it's just not clear. YMMV.

My larger point is that given how successfully the story has been kept under wraps there is a pretty wide range of 'badness' possible for his actual behavior and where on that range the truth landed likely matters to another team.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
12,001
around the way
Agreed, but other than FVV and Siakam is it pretty new players there. I guess if he loses those two it goes a long way to losing the rest...
They basically telegraphed that they were ok with moving Anunoby. Could be that he was the Roger Clemens to Nurse's Butch Hobson in this scenario, who knows.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
31,056
IME would be a great choice for Toronto. There is defensive talent on that roster
No brainer hire. Wouldn’t be surprised if it were announced in next 24-48 hours.

Edit: Just read the never coach again post. I would wager a lot on that not being the case. He’s a heavy favorite to have a job in the coming weeks imo even if Toronto falls though which I’m guessing right now it doesn’t.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
31,567
if I were guessing, his agent realizes the above and negotiated with the Cs around how the team will enable him (or not make it harder) for him to interview for other jobs. That might be that Celtics agree to say and share nothing wtih anyone, or might be they agree to share a specific level of info (e.g. a summary of an internal investigation) with other team execs if requested, etc. What they are willing to share intersects with what actually happened in a bit of a matrix for other teams to navigate: if there's really bad stuff, Ime's agent likely would ask C's to simply refuse to discuss or share, and that will make it harder for teams to get comfortable with him (but not impossible); if there's relatively less-bad stuff, they might agree to disclose and that might help him get another job, etc. But that's just a guess....
Maybe, but they had to hire an external law firm that found they should get rid of him, that screams sexual harassment issues to me, and hiring him opens you up to a lot of issues if he's accused again, and one thing sports owners really really don't like is people digging into discovery and testimony on their front offices. I also think we've seen that problems AT WORK are very different from beating your wife 10 years ago, or settling a rape lawsuit 25 years ago.
A couple of things on the above.

Hiring an outside law firm when there's a charge of misconduct against a senior corporate official is pretty much the base case in large, well-run organizations. It happens more frequently than most people know but it stays in-house. The large law firm would have the resources to interview folks that the Cs wouldn't have internally and the report is also privileged information.

However, just because the law firm did an investigation and wrote a report doesn't mean that any of the stuff in the report is proven. Because of that, I would be shocked if the Cs said anything to anyone about what they might or might not have discovered during the investigation. If the Cs did say something to another employer and it turns out to be false, then the Cs are opened to liability. I don't know an attorney who wouldn't tell the Cs not to say anything if asked.

Maybe NBA owners are so risk-adverse to things we think Ime may have done or maybe they've looked into Ime independently and found stuff that is disqualifying but as it only takes one owner who thinks Ime is a "winner" (TM) and thinks he can manage Ime to hire him. As such, I'll put my internet bragging rights on the side of if Ime gets a job, and if he never does, I hope everyone forgets this post (or at least the predictive part of it). :)
 

PedroKsBambino

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 17, 2003
32,319
A couple of things on the above.

Hiring an outside law firm when there's a charge of misconduct against a senior corporate official is pretty much the base case in large, well-run organizations. It happens more frequently than most people know but it stays in-house. The large law firm would have the resources to interview folks that the Cs wouldn't have internally and the report is also privileged information.

However, just because the law firm did an investigation and wrote a report doesn't mean that any of the stuff in the report is proven. Because of that, I would be shocked if the Cs said anything to anyone about what they might or might not have discovered during the investigation. If the Cs did say something to another employer and it turns out to be false, then the Cs are opened to liability. I don't know an attorney who wouldn't tell the Cs not to say anything if asked.

Maybe NBA owners are so risk-adverse to things we think Ime may have done or maybe they've looked into Ime independently and found stuff that is disqualifying but as it only takes one owner who thinks Ime is a "winner" (TM) and thinks he can manage Ime to hire him. As such, I'll put my internet bragging rights on the side of if Ime gets a job, and if he never does, I hope everyone forgets this post (or at least the predictive part of it). :)
All agreed, and that is why I'd guess if they say anything it would be something that was negotiated with Ime's team---which obviates the liability since they've agreed to it (and presumably would only do so with a signed waiver from Ime in exchange for the specifically agreed statement/information)

My understanding is that mechanism is used in some executive departure situations to get around the challenges you raise, and the parallel concern from the employee/executive that the absence of any disclosure is harmful to them and creates a reason to sue the employer and use the discovery process and/or litigation to shape the perception of the departure. You may have specific knowledge to the contrary---I've heard that a couple times as a way out in situations with some similarities to this (obviously, this is somewhat unique with a head coach) but am certainly not an employment law expert.
 

Smokey Joe

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,221
i don't think Nurse is interested in a rebuild. Some speculation that he's waiting on word whether Harden to HOU is real, if it is he'd sign up.
If Nurse is actually waiting to see where Harden’s corpse falls, he has even less judgement than I thought.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,499
that's reasonable, I didn't think either deserved a suspension. Less dangerous plays than Draymond and no significant history from either guy.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
13,313
that's reasonable, I didn't think either deserved a suspension. Less dangerous plays than Draymond and no significant history from either guy.
Yeah, the Sixers' team-wide obsession with nutshots is definitely eccentric, but doesn't seem suspension-worthy.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,883
Santa Monica
Meh. They should hire Atkinson he's a better coach.
My guess is Ime never coaches in the NBA again, it's unclear if he's really that good and he's a big liability for legal and ownership to sign off on for a guy who doesn't have a real track record.
https://hoopswire.com/rockets-hiring-ime-udoka-as-coach/

Happy for him. He had to go for breaking team policy, but it was a pretty steep price for a consensual relationship.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,883
Santa Monica
Worth noting that was retracted/contradicted and was a particularly nasty bit of Stephen A Smith grossness. He was not suspended for a consensual relationship All indications are he was suspended for sexual harassment
He could still have broken team policy, been justifiably suspended, and had a consensual relationship. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Did Stephen A publicly retract anything? That would be a first

Woj makes it sound like Ime was offered several Head Coaching opportunities (but Woj has been working hard for Ime the entire time)
 

Mystic Merlin

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 21, 2007
47,676
Hartford, CT
He could still have broken team policy, been justifiably suspended, and had a consensual relationship. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Did Stephen A publicly retract anything? That would be a first

Woj makes it sound like Ime was offered several Head Coaching opportunities (but Woj has been working hard for Ime the entire time)
And when is the Brooklyn hire coming?